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Dystram posted:lol there's plenty about gaming to criticise. I don't take issue with her making videos or the videos themselves. Guys, he literally just admitted he doesn't have a problem with her producing the videos, or criticisizing gaming, he just wants an excuse to ad hom the woman in a thread about people basically using the faintest excuses to ad hom women, specifically he just wants to let us know she's a "fake". Here's a question: What does attacking Anita's credibility have to do, in any way, shape, or form, with the premise of this thread? She's not perfect. She's a pretty flawed human being in plenty of ways. But I'm just failing to see how that's relevant or important, here. So why are you bringing up? What's the motivation, the intent, the end goal, here?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:22
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breaklaw posted:Good that you made this post because it shows the real complaint that the gamergate people have. Mostly complaint against the complaint you make here. They see Sarkeesian and her supporters as would-be censors who want to put an end to this type of game being created, and they are speaking out against that censorship effort as they perceive it. No, the real complaint Gamergate people have is that people are criticizing their precious medium. Very few people criticizing Sarkeesian have any interest in censorship issues.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:22
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Torpor posted:This thread is going places, fast. This is actually the fastest moving thread in D&D, loving goons.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:23
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Trilin posted:Video games for the most part encourage the consumption of more video games. When your average day consists of 6+ hours of playing video games, it's easy to form an identity around it, and the desire to defend it. Yes, however, this was less so when there was only Tetris on your calculator/Mario on your NES. So, what tools and methods are games using to reinforce the perception of collective identity rather product consumption?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:23
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Lemming posted:You said "both sides are just interested in hating on eachother and no one wants to discuss anything or any nuances" which is false equivocation to an incredible degree. This implies that both sides are being dumb in the same way and degree, when really that's like saying that if someone punches you in the face, calling them a loving rear end in a top hat means you are "just interesting in hating on [them]." Have you been following this lunacy on twitter? This is exactly what is happening. Due to the nature of the medium anybody can claim to be whichever side they choose, create a [death description][person][numbers] and spout how many knives theyre gonna shove through someones orifices. Twitter has become a cespool for honest-to-god trolls, and they are thriving in this poo poo.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:23
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'm more wondering what tools and methods are used to create a psychological impact which combines and reinforces consumption as an identity. Nice try, but I'm not giving you any more tools to get Rahm Emmanuel elected to high office.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:23
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:The only thing objectionable about Sarkeesian is how much money she managed to generate for such basic loving insights and commentary. It's like Sociology 98: Intro to Sociology level stuff. Pre-entry level. The only people who have any right to be upset with her are the 'SJW' side of the debate. And it should just be mild annoyance and jealousy, really. I get what you're saying about her level of critique, but at the same time, look at the discourse around her videos and Gamergate. You've got people who believe sexism isn't a thing and in fact that women as a group are oppressing men. Maybe basic critique is the level gamers are at? Beartaco posted:How worthwhile is engaging with the more "moderate" people in Gamergate, encourage them to organise and drive out the extreme misogynists, then let the movement die when they inevitably realise nobody cares about video game 'journalism'. The position that I’m coming from, and I admit up front that it may be optimistic, is that the people involved in Gamergate believe that they have a legitimate grievance. For some it’s the idea that games journalism is in bed with the industry (no poo poo) and That Must Be Fixed, for others it seems to be a new front in the culture war in which women are encroaching and attack men (see the USU terrorist, who claims he wants to murder people because feminism ruined his life) and That Must Be Fixed. I want to believe that these people can be engaged with and discuss how maybe they’re going a little overboard (see again, optimism), but the internet is amorphous enough that nobody has to actually talk to anyone they don’t already agree with. I’m hoping someone pro-Gamergate makes an appearance so we can have a discussion. Dr. Arbitrary posted:What does #stopgamergate2014 mean? From the tag, I can't tell what it is for or against. #stopgamergate2014 is a counter-protest tag. Granted, it's about as effective as clicking 'like' on Facebook, but it's nice to see. BetterToRuleInHell posted:Did the GBS Gamergate thread get deleted? That thread was terrifying, in the sense that there are a large collection of goons who believed in the righteous cause and that Anita and Zoe and their ilk are attention whores and their defenders are 'SJWs' who are the real villians in this. There’s a reason I put this in D&D. There are standards here.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:25
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Have you been following this lunacy on twitter? This is exactly what is happening. Due to the nature of the medium anybody can claim to be whichever side they choose, create a [death description][person][numbers] and spout how many knives theyre gonna shove through someones orifices. Twitter has become a cespool for honest-to-god trolls, and they are thriving in this poo poo. Look they're not calling for violence they're just calling a lot of people subhuman loving wastes of flesh that deserve to die one day and have no redeeming value to society.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:25
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Torpor posted:My only issue with her is that she raised ok premises but they built up into a conclusion that didn't make sense based on the provided evidence. For instance she objected to rape scenes because they were only included to be shocking( which is a good sign of bad writing) but she concluded that type of thing also normalizes rape. Those are kind of opposite. Her point that that topic should be treated with respect is just bad. Especially when the character was running around murdering people. I can't comment on the first part, as I've never managed to care enough to watch one of her videos to the conclusion. But, for the situation you are presenting, an argument could be made in the instances that poor-writing employs rape as a Bad Thing that happens, but without really caring about the victim. Instead it's just there to show how Totally Evil an antagonist is, or to give a protagonist someone to avenge. In this way it both uses it as a "shock", but also cheapens and normalizing it (by disconnecting the fact that it is bad from why ti is bad, since that would require actually caring about the victim as a character)
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Oct 16, 2014 22:25
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Video Title: Anita Sarkeesian Admitted She Was Not A Gamer in 2010 (Flying Turkeys video clip by itself) Transcript: I'm going to show you a remix that I just finished this weekend and no one else has seen. One person has seen it. It's a soundtrack of one song except I'm doing video games. So it's not exactly a fandom, I'm not a fan of video games. I actually had to learn about video games in the process of making this. [video plays] To me , the song is a positive just because I've only contextualized it in a way to critique male domination in our media. And also video games, like I would love to play video games, but I don't want to go around shooting people and ripping off their heads. Gross. Hence, this is my response to that. --- This is the video that keeps being used as evidence that she never gave a crap about video games or even every played them prior to making her Kickstarter. I think it's clear that she isn't a HARDCORE GAMER, but that doesn't mean she's completely unfamiliar with video games. So what if she's not a gamer, the whole point is that she doesn't want to be a gamer because the status of "Gamer" is associated with misogyny and violence. This video is the flimsiest loving excuse.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:25
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Nice try, but I'm not giving you any more tools to get Rahm Emmanuel elected to high office. I was more thinking of what tools and methods would be most suitable to replicate in fomenting national identity over tribal affiliation in rural educational settings, however, now that you mention it, I see how some of the tools I suspect are used would be adaptable to machine politics....
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Oct 16, 2014 22:26
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Have you been following this lunacy on twitter? This is exactly what is happening. Due to the nature of the medium anybody can claim to be whichever side they choose, create a [death description][person][numbers] and spout how many knives theyre gonna shove through someones orifices. Twitter has become a cespool for honest-to-god trolls, and they are thriving in this poo poo. i think a more apt way to put it is that twitter makes anything beyond minimum effort trolling and harassment incredibly frustrating and futile, and people become reduced to their base 12-year-old-on-xbox-live nature
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Oct 16, 2014 22:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:This thread is confusing. How did 'gamer' become an identity beyond consumption? It never did. Consumption can be the basis of a strong identity when people lack perspective I suppose. I think a lot of things in games journalism, "indie games", and gaming social critiques are dumb. How women are portrayed in games is often very embarrassing and makes me feel disgusted with whoever designed them, and the people howling out rape threads are worse. I think one side is silly and the other side is terrible, but anything said in this debate would be lost in the screaming. There's no point getting involved.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, however, this was less so when there was only Tetris on your calculator/Mario on your NES. So, what tools and methods are games using to reinforce the perception of collective identity rather product consumption? My guess would be the creation and growth of communities where video games were the primary binding factor between all members. Video game advertisement has made a token effort in order to reinforce and pander to gamers, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head though.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:26
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Slanderer posted:I can't comment on the first part, as I've never managed to care enough to watch one of her videos to the conclusion. But, for the situation you are presenting, an argument could be made in the instances that poor-writing employs rape as a Bad Thing that happens, but without really caring about the victim. Instead it's just there to show how Totally Evil an antagonist is, or to give a protagonist someone to avenge. I guess but every story since ever usually has the villain demonstrating their evilness through various means, usually a hapless victim character #122.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:28
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Zeitgueist posted:Well Dworkin didn't say it either, though. You have no 2nd wave feminist cred, you simple child.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:28
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:This is the video that keeps being used as evidence that she never gave a crap about video games or even every played them prior to making her Kickstarter. I think it's clear that she isn't a HARDCORE GAMER, but that doesn't mean she's completely unfamiliar with video games. So what if she's not a gamer, the whole point is that she doesn't want to be a gamer because the status of "Gamer" is associated with misogyny and violence. The arguments against her here remind me of people on the left who say you can't talk about certain issues unless you're part of a marginalized class. Gamers are defining themselves as a marginalized class and drawing lines between who's in or who's out.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:28
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Trilin posted:My guess would be the creation and growth of communities where video games were the primary binding factor between all members. its not like videogames invented this. See: every single music subculture movement since the goddamn beetles
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Oct 16, 2014 22:28
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Zeitgueist posted:No, the real complaint Gamergate people have is that people are criticizing their precious medium. Very few people criticizing Sarkeesian have any interest in censorship issues. Yes, because that criticism is an attempt at censorship. The games in her videos are games that she believes shouldn't be made, for reasons that she explains throughout the videos. People who enjoy those games don't want to see the creators pressured into changing the type of content that they produce. It isn't the medium, it is the content.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:29
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Torpor posted:I guess but every story since ever usually has the villain demonstrating their evilness through various means, usually a hapless victim character #122. Of course, but since none of this happens in a vacuum, it happens that the cheapening of rape is a much greater fear for women than for men. In a perfect, gender-equal utopia this might not be the case, but in the context of the world that the people playing games exist in, it really is.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:32
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breaklaw posted:Yes, because that criticism is an attempt at censorship. The games in her videos are games that she believes shouldn't be made, for reasons that she explains throughout the videos. People who enjoy those games don't want to see the creators pressured into changing the type of content that they produce. It isn't the medium, it is the content. This is grotesquely wrong. She says multiple times she enjoyed many of the games she uses for her critiques and was happy they were made, and stresses the problem is not individual games but the predominance of certain tropes in the industry as a whole. Now, the people who feel the need to attack her personally to get people to stop listening, that is an attempt at censorship. Seriously, in what way is anything she's said an argument for censorship? She's never even said people shouldn't purchase or play those games, to my knowledge!
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Oct 16, 2014 22:32
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A big flaming stink posted:its not like videogames invented this. See: every single music subculture movement since the goddamn beetles However, I cannot think of a subculture movement that has been as successful at fostering an identity affiliation among its consumer base as the gaming industry. I realize this isn't a collectice nor organized process, so I wonder what tools and methods were implemented, when, and how they were built upon to create a modern, militant 'gamer' identity. E: breaklaw posted:Yes, because that criticism is an attempt at censorship. The games in her videos are games that she believes shouldn't be made, for reasons that she explains throughout the videos. People who enjoy those games don't want to see the creators pressured into changing the type of content that they produce. It isn't the medium, it is the content. Say, pal, let me ask you this: Why do you believe games should be made?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:32
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breaklaw posted:Yes, because that criticism is an attempt at censorship. The games in her videos are games that she believes shouldn't be made, for reasons that she explains throughout the videos. People who enjoy those games don't want to see the creators pressured into changing the type of content that they produce. It isn't the medium, it is the content. This is garbage. Criticizing art you don't like is not an attempt at censorship, no more than me making this post is an attempt at censoring you. It's just calling out total moronic stupidity she and me and a whole bunch of other people are sick and tired of and wish there are more alternatives to. It is the conflation of criticism - i.e. the attempt to start conversations about topics you aren't comfortable with - with 'censorship', leading to the whole internet poo poo parade designed to keep everyone's heads down, that is actually censorship. Fangz fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:33
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A big flaming stink posted:i think a more apt way to put it is that twitter makes anything beyond minimum effort trolling and harassment incredibly frustrating and futile, and people become reduced to their base 12-year-old-on-xbox-live nature While true, I'm cynical enough to believe theres a group of dedicated assholes intent on keeping this going forever, and are making throwaway accounts to doxx / threaten people regardless of position, to make everyone involved look bonkers, to get more media attention, to attract more idiots, to aw hell you see where im going
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Oct 16, 2014 22:34
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A big flaming stink posted:Hell let's take this for an example. DOA beach volleyball is hilariously, pornographically sexist, but just calling it wank material for manchildren doesn't even properly analyze the sexism at play. This works manner of misogyny is wholly different from that of Duke Nukem Forever, and is intricately linked with Japanese sensibilities regarding femininity, especially Kawaii culture (which has had literal books written about). There's also the necessity for niche publishers (and xbox in japan is as niche as it gets) to cater extensively towards the otaku demographic, making this work's manner of sexism distinct from that of mainstream Japanese culture. Dead or Alive is distinctly not trying to do something ironic like Bayonetta is though. The guy who spearheaded the series is pretty much a huge nerd who admits he loves rear end and titties to probably an unhealthy degree, and has in the past referred to the aforementioned women in that series as his "daughters". And this is a game series where they are basically posable sex objects for the viewer.  He's a pretty good distillation of one specific flavor of how hosed up the industry can get when it comes to sexism.It's true though that it's inappropriate to just do a drive by assessment of the medium however. You can't encapsulate all the factors that make it such an intermittently hosed up industry (And by extension a consumer base.) that way. There are a ton of factors that play into games like that being a prominent thing in the market. Like the associated fandoms that gaming capitalizes off of for instance. In Japan, the whole anime otaku thing is a good example. A lot of the spankbait in the series can probably be traced back to pandering to demographics like that. Hell, JRPG's are a good example to explain what I mean. A lot of media that gets released from Japan over here capitalizes on that. So you have passive non-actor women who are tropey/cliche as hell when it comes to being female. Take the "moe" phenomena over there that was/is is stupidly, retardedly huge. Typically moe is all about passive, inactive women whose main virtue is how cute they are --- An aesthetic trait. Not what they do within the context of the narrative. The whole "men do, women are" thing is typically in full effect in games that pander to that demographic. Of course, when you get into that sort of stuff and start making critical assessments of it you inevitably have a large number of people looking into how seedy that poo poo is. Which has some of the people in the associated consumer demographic lash out when people point out how weird/obsessive/creepy it is to sleep on a throw pillow of your anime waifu. quote:There’s a reason I put this in D&D. There are standards here. It should be mentioned that the games thread from way back about Depression Quest had a bunch of people saying things that were or came close to "Well maybe the stupid bitch should have made a better game if she didn't want all this criticism then.  ". Just because it's in a forum where people are expected to not act like slavering fucktards doesn't mean that people won't. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:34
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breaklaw posted:Yes, because that criticism is an attempt at censorship. The games in her videos are games that she believes shouldn't be made, for reasons that she explains throughout the videos. People who enjoy those games don't want to see the creators pressured into changing the type of content that they produce. It isn't the medium, it is the content. I have to disagree with you here. I can believe that Michael Bay's Transformers movies are utterly horrible that no sequels should be made(criticism), but that's different than my actively preventing them from being made (censorship). The two aren't the same.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:35
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Slanderer posted:You have no 2nd wave feminist cred, you simple child. I'm 4th wave, like Hermione.  breaklaw posted:Yes, because that criticism is an attempt at censorship. No, it's not, it's an encouragement to be better. And anyhow most of the people aren't concerned with censorhip at all, they're pissed that someone's criticizing their hobby and that person is a woman.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'm more wondering what tools and methods are used to create a psychological impact which combines and reinforces consumption as an identity. Hmm, yes, I wonder how consumers in an industry that is highly tied to hacker/DIY culture feel like they are stakeholders in the direction of said industry, regardless of the financial reality of major AAA products. It's almost as if cynical exploitation of a communal endeavor further calcifies existing inequality within that community, especially if that community is primarily populated by people generally regarded as social outcasts. This is the only form of social capital they feel have, so they're fighting like hell (in horrendously violent ways) to maintain it.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:36
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oh i don't mean to directly compare bayonetta and DOAXBV, i'm just using them as two different examples. also I'm pretty sure bayonetta wasn't being ironic, it was genuinely trying to titillate the player (and then subsequently mocking them for it)
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Oct 16, 2014 22:37
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GlyphGryph posted:
Credibility is always an issue, when you engage in an effort to persuade others. Why do you think so many political ads discuss issue flip flopping. Or the other guys disconnect from the common person.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:However, I cannot think of a subculture movement that has been as successful at fostering an identity affiliation among its consumer base as the gaming industry. I realize this isn't a collectice nor organized process, so I wonder what tools and methods were implemented, when, and how they were built upon to create a modern, militant 'gamer' identity. Honestly I would attribute almost none of the phenomena to activity on the part of the industry, it pretty much organically grew from being a semi-niche hobby with a preponderance of people who felt excluded from mainstream society and were also the prime demographic to buy in heavily to the internet.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:38
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:This is the video that keeps being used as evidence that she never gave a crap about video games or even every played them prior to making her Kickstarter. I think it's clear that she isn't a HARDCORE GAMER, but that doesn't mean she's completely unfamiliar with video games. So what if she's not a gamer, the whole point is that she doesn't want to be a gamer because the status of "Gamer" is associated with misogyny and violence. Also, she said had to learn about video games before she gave the talk in 2010...which was before her kickstarter exist. Logically, it means the video itself is proof against that very argument. I don't really care, but the video itself contradicts the argument. Obviously she isn't a life long gamer, but that is more or less ratcheting up the barrier of entry for criticism to a group that has less incentive to criticize it.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:38
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I imagine she was playing more games than most "gamers" when she made those videos, as she had a huge library for analysis.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:39
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SporkOfTruth posted:Hmm, yes, I wonder how consumers in an industry that is highly tied to hacker/DIY culture feel like they are stakeholders in the direction of said industry, regardless of the financial reality of major AAA products. This is what I am asking: please detail the process by which undividuals feel they are made to have social capital from their consumption of entertaining product, and what tools and methods are used in those products to reinforce identity as separate from and inherent to the 'gamer' identity.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:39
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#gamergate, as a social phenomenon, makes sense. Think of all the poo poo about Jade, Jennifer Hepler, Carolyn at Gamespot, etc. This includes stuff like the paranoia about fake geek girls, or casuals (which, in retrospect, seems partially like a dogwhistle for 'women'). Some of this stuff was long before the term 'SJW' started popping up on 4Chan. The aftermath of Sarkeesian's first round of harassment was a trigger for a lot of resentment amongst those involved in attacking her. It was the first time they "lost" against one of their targets, because Anita gained widespread recognition and praise. The gaming media was seen as "colluding" with her by reporting on what happened, which led to the whole "sjw clickbait editorial journalism" meme. That resentment eventually led to the anti-feminist community infrastructure that #gamergate came out of. So I think gaming has always had problems with misogyny, #Gamergate just gave them all a name and an ideological cover.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:40
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Zeitgueist posted:I imagine she was playing more games than most "gamers" when she made those videos, as she had a huge library for analysis. Even if she didn't play a single one of them, I thought her analysis did hit marks which have to be argued on their own merit.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:41
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Post about this stupid poo poo in GBS, or better, don't post about it anywhere ever. What the gently caress is wrong with you mentally if you want to post about gamergate. You all have severe brain disorders if you can't stop caring about this. Stop making gamergate threads and stop thinking about gamergate. STOP DOING IT. Turn off your computer if you can't help yourself. You need to stop!
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Oct 16, 2014 22:42
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