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I checked D&D and Games and didn’t see a thread on this, so here comes and effortpost. What is #Gamergate? Not to be confused with Gamersgate, an online storefront that is probably having a horrible month for PR. According to #Gamergate’s advocates (including, in between right-wing zingers, the movement’s namer Adam Baldwin), #Gamergate is about addressing ethics issues in video game journalism. They have a mascot, Vivian James, who has a name that kind of sounds like ‘video games,’ is totally a woman, and wishes we would all stop politicizing video games so we can just get back to playing them. Since its inception, the rhetoric used by #Gamergate has grown from objecting to one woman’s (imaginary) improprieties towards framing themselves as rebelling against the death of the ‘gamer’ identity, a consumer revolt against unfair business practices, and valiant defenders of free speech. You sound suspicious of those assertions. I am all kinds of suspicious about those assertions. The first target of #Gamergate was Zoe Quinn (developer of Depression Quest), who allegedly slept with Kotaku writer Nathan Grayson in order to get a positive review of her game. A few problems with this, though. First of all, the allegations are coming from her totally-not-pathetic ex-boyfriend, who wrote an eight thousand-ish word complaint about their relationship and posted it wide on the internet (including SA, according to his post, though mods apparently deleted it). As we all know, guys ranting about their ex-girlfriends are totes rational and honest about the woman’s shortcomings. Secondly, while Quinn and Grayson apparently had a relationship at some point, the only thing Grayson wrote about her was regarding a reality show that didn’t get off the ground, and that was before they started a relationship. (Kotaku editor Stephen Totilo addressed this directly). That #Gamergate’s founding concern was a non-issue didn’t stop anything, though; Zoe Quinn has been accused (falsely) of lying about donating to a depression charity, sleeping her way to getting Depression Quest on a list of indie games, and has been the target of varied unpleasantness. So, the journalism ethics issue that got #Gamergate started wasn’t actually an issue, and but there has been a lot of complaining about a woman. The situation has gotten out of hand enough that Cracked.com, purveyor of list-based columns, has made several articles about #Gamergate including one by Quinn herself. The majority of the Gawker network has also weighed in as well; not just the expected Kotaku and Jezebel articles, but also the flagship site and a surprisingly thorough write-up by Deadspin. It’s also gotten a write-up on Breitbart’s website (in an article that uses the URL ‘Lying-Greedy-Promiscuous-Feminist-Bullies-are-Tearing-the-Video-Game-Industry-Apart’ and starts with “It’s easy to mock video gamers as dorky loners in yellowing underpants. Indeed, in previous columns, I’ve done it myself. Occasionally at length.” Stay classy, guys.). So what? People, specifically people who play video games, complain about things on the internet all the time. You played Mass Effect 3, you know how lovely people can be about their games. The end of ME3 was bullshit and a horrible finale for the series, but we’re a bit beyond simple complaining. Quinn left her home after receiving death threats, as did another developer named Brianne Wu after she received rather graphic rape and death threats including her home address. Feminist Frequency’s Anita Sarkeesian is a perennial target (with, uh, terrifying stalkers), and cancelled a speaking event at Utah State University yesterday after receiving a message from someone threatening “…the deadliest school shooting in American history.” Sarkeesian stated that at least one of the threats mentioned #Gamergate. Social researcher Jennifer Allaway (whose research into sexism in the game industry was flooded with garbage data by individuals claiming to be involved with #Gamergate) argues that #Gamergate qualify as a hate group. How do we know it’s people affiliated with #Gamergate doing these things? What the internet being what it is, we don’t. Like Anonymous, anyone with an internet connection can claim to be part of #Gamergate, or not as they choose. Nobody is in charge of #Gamergate, thus no one is responsible for it. A few people have been publicly connected to the tag, though; the Escapist held two interviews about #Gamergate, one with female developers and the other with normal developers. One of the interviewees in the normal developer discussion, Slade Villene, goes by the handle RogueStar and apparently participated in an IRC chatroom talking about how to drive Quinn to suicide and bring her up on false charges of tax fraud. The Escapist later removed his part of the interview, as well as that of James Desborough, another participant, who had previously wrote an article titled “In defense of rape” about how rape can be a powerful narrative tool. While he’s not exactly wrong about that, he also funded a kickstarter for a Chronicles of Gor book he wrote, which suggests that he thinks rape is less of a bad thing than most people. What’s actually #Gamergate doing about ethics in games journalism? Not much, from what I can tell. Quinn and Sarkeesian, while being popular targets, aren’t actually journalists. I’ve found a lot of complaining about game journalism and bunker mentality, but little actual action towards reform. A lot of what I’ve seen is echo chamber reverb and posting mean things people said about #Gamergate (I’m not linking examples here to avoid touching the poop). Intel did pull its ads from Gamasutra following ‘Operation Disrespectful Nod,’ a letter-writing campaign complaining about Leigh Alexander’s opinion piece about the death of the gamer identity, so…there’s that, I guess. There was nothing unethical about the article, but it did talk about how gamers aren’t just white guys, so it was targeted. So why are you so pissed off about this that you started this thread? What are you hoping to accomplish? I love games. I’ve loved games since I first played Commander Keen and Wolfenstein 3-D and EGA Trek. I research video games in my academic work. At the same time, video games as a culture have serious issues regarding women that we, as gamers, need to address. Fat, Ugly or Slutty collects the daily abuse women get in games. Rape survivors complained that making jokes about rape is kinda scary as gently caress at PAX, and the Penny-Arcade guys responded by selling Dickwolves t-shirts. Someone made a straight-up ‘I will kill people to stop her from talking’ threat against Anita Sarkeesian and everyone on USU campus. These things don’t just happen out of nowhere: the video game community is generally hostile towards women, and I’m not okay with that. As a group, we shouldn’t be people who are okay with slander, rape threats, and loving terrorism. The point of this thread is to promote discussion. Think #Gamergate is rubbish? Great, come talk about it. Think it’s a great and necessary thing? I’d like to hear why. I believe that the people making threats are the exception rather than the rule, and I’d like to have a discussion about what we can be done to make them a vanishingly small exception.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:34
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No Vivian James? I'm shocked. Gamergate is toxic misogynist garbage, that much seems clear. How do we go about changing the regrettable culture of video games though? I know I've definitely quit identifying as a gamer lately. I'm not sure how to meaningfully push back
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Oct 16, 2014 20:43
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James Desborough is defending rape? I'm shocked. If James Desborough supports something a reasonable person probably should be against it sight unseen. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 20:48
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Rygar201 posted:How do we go about changing the regrettable culture of video games though? I know I've definitely quit identifying as a gamer lately. I'm not sure how to meaningfully push back Call people out on their poo poo. The community isn't going to change quickly or easily but the least you can do is talk about it, that's one of the ways society changes. As it stands, gamers have been racist sexist shitheels for decades and the media they consume often reinforces this. People need to realize that media is both reflective and influential of society.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:49
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How worthwhile is engaging with the more "moderate" people in Gamergate, encourage them to organise and drive out the extreme misogynists, then let the movement die when they inevitably realise nobody cares about video game 'journalism'. Literally any attempts I've made on this have lead me to the conclusion that the only thing these people care about is women getting their comeuppance.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:50
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I see d&d is not to be outdone in the worst threads on the forums competition. but seriously the only thing that has come of this poo poo is that there are a bunch of people being assholes on twitter. some of them are being assholes in an institutionally oppressive manner, but its still one neverending cascade of hashtag tantrums. if you learn one thing from this it should be that twitter is absolute garbage
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Oct 16, 2014 20:57
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I think it just took a while for the culture wars to reach gaming because for a long time it was strictly controlled by publishers who say little reason to allow political controversy. More or less it was comparable to the studio system that ran Hollywood. However, trends from 2007 have pushed in a very different direction. The causal market opened up which allowed more people (especially women) into gaming, the indie development took off then crowd-funding allowed it to continue financially. This obviously created a shift that made some "traditional" gamers uncomfortable. Ultimately, I think it is a long time in coming and will likely continue be a topic of discussion because it is basically spanking new front in the culture wars. Also, if it was about corruption, the topic would have moved on to abusive free to play gaming and publishers buying good press. It hasn't.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:58
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A big flaming stink posted:if you learn one thing from this it should be that twitter is absolute garbage  
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Oct 16, 2014 20:58
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Please tell me why I should care, at all, about 16 year olds sending death threats to other 16 year olds on Twitter.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:00
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Ardennes posted:I think it just took a while for the culture wars to reach gaming because for a long time it was strictly controlled by publishers who say little reason to allow political controversy. More or less it was comparable to the studio system that ran Hollywood. Mind sharing a bit about what happened in films/other mediums?
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Oct 16, 2014 21:00
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Beartaco posted:How worthwhile is engaging with the more "moderate" people in Gamergate, encourage them to organise and drive out the extreme misogynists, then let the movement die when they inevitably realise nobody cares about video game 'journalism'. There really isn't any reason to engage with "moderate" people because the basis of the movement is misogyny. Games journalism has always been a joke because of how interconnected the games industry is with the games journalism field. But people aren't mad about that, they're mad about women in gaming and how they're affecting their chosen hobby. That's premise of this "movement." It cannot be taken anywhere positive as a result.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jW4koYz2UM It's worth noting why Anita Sarkeesian cancelled her speaking engagement. quote:What it did not do, however, and the reason Sarkeesian ultimately canceled, was actually commit to stopping people from bringing in guns. As Sarkeesian explained on Twitter late Tuesday, “Forced to cancel my talk at USU after receiving death threats because police wouldn’t take steps to prevent concealed firearms at the event… Requested pat downs or metal detectors after mass shooting threat but because of Utah’s open carry laws police wouldn’t do firearm searches.” The University echoed her remarks in a statement that explained, “Sarkeesian asked if weapons will be permitted at the speaking venue. Sarkeesian was informed that, in accordance with the State of Utah law regarding the carrying of firearms, if a person has a valid concealed firearm permit and is carrying a weapon, they are permitted to have it at the venue."
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Oct 16, 2014 21:01
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I'm more baffled about how this whole thing started. It was hearsay from a pissed off loser ex boyfriend. Because that guy is a reliable source of information. I guess people believe anything that confirms their pre-existing prejudices.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:04
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i mean you are honestly discussing the ideological makeup of a collection of 140 characters appearing after a hashtag. Not only is this the internet, which has never been anything remotely resembling real life, but its the internet limited to snarky one-liners.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:06
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I can never do more than scratch the surface of this whole poo poo storm because my mind boggles at the initial fact that people are in a raging froth over a random indie developer and one of the most milquetoast cultural commentators imaginable. The idea that the rabbit hole goes even deeper is so stupid I can't adequately describe it. Like, I'm less upset about people I know made decisions that resulted in actual deaths and human suffering than these people are over two women existing in a public space. It's loving nonsensical.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:09
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Monaghan posted:I'm more baffled about how this whole thing started. It was hearsay from a pissed off loser ex boyfriend. Because that guy is a reliable source of information. I guess people believe anything that confirms their pre-existing prejudices. The post rang true but the takeaway from it should have been "this woman and this man are both sort of broken, let's mock them both and then move on with our lives" and not "let's spend the next several months circlejerking about videogames on Twitter". So basically A big flaming stink posted:if you learn one thing from this it should be that twitter is absolute garbage
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Oct 16, 2014 21:10
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Monaghan posted:I'm more baffled about how this whole thing started. It was hearsay from a pissed off loser ex boyfriend. Because that guy is a reliable source of information. I guess people believe anything that confirms their pre-existing prejudices. That was probably the hardest part for me to understand too. It felt like it came from nowhere. And then, when it was explained to me, I was like "Wait, she didn't actually get good reviews or critical success. Why are people so mad?" And then poo poo got really intense, with the violent threats and all that, and it became pretty clear that this was pretty deeply rooted in misogyny. I think the most we can take out of this really is how people justify misogyny, how it can be used to such great effect across social media, and how it escalates over time.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:10
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Oh goody, another one. Since I posted this in the other threads (before the gas and the ant times), I'll post this here: Twitter is Broken quote:GamaSutra editor-at-large Leigh Alexander wrote a “gamers are over” article in which she called gamers “these obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers.” Her article prompted Intel to pull an ad campaign from GamaSutra last week, presumably on the grounds of needing those hyper-consumers’ money. “it’s funny how dudes who are ‘aspiring games journalists’ tweet bullshit at me as if I cannot instantly kill all their dreams” and “maybe mean of me to burn a young female writer but, sorry, this is not gonna be a career for her.” I doubt that GamaSutra would have published her statement that actor and GamerGate supporter Adam Baldwin “jacks off goats.” You are a professional writer who has just written that a mainstream actor who disagrees with you masturbates goats. What is going on with you? Watching this thing for the past couple weeks, from an IT perspective, has been harrowing. You got probably 10,000 people yelling at each other constantly, in a battle where posting a hashtag is a condemnation of association, and nothing is moderated. You can't help but laugh when the media grabs all this and has no idea how any of this poo poo works. quote:On Twitter, negativity is viral.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:10
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A big flaming stink posted:i mean you are honestly discussing the ideological makeup of a collection of 140 characters appearing after a hashtag. Not only is this the internet, which has never been anything remotely resembling real life, but its the internet limited to snarky one-liners. Just because it is ridiculous doesn't mean it is meaningless and if anything I think sort of shows how even people who may not have much to complain about will still come into social conflict. It isn't going to go away either even if it is happening in a industry focused on entertainment products. quote:Mind sharing a bit about what happened in films/other mediums? The battle continues? The rigid grip of the studio system was weakened, especially during the 1970s which is widely considered an era of films with social commentary (maybe a golden age of it?). However, studios didn't go away and if anything re-entrenched themselves to the point that since the late 2000s less and less emphasis was put on independent film making. That said, I am sure someone else could tell you an in depth history of film but I think there are parallels. TV never really had much of an "independent" era, the closest you really could get was HBO then AMC giving shows more leeway during the 2000s. That said at this point the barrier of entry for gaming is so low because of crowdfunding and Steam, there really isn't any way to really control it. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:12
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I like how this is a discussion on Twitter rather than the rampant misogyny and harassment that occurs in the video game community. Cause yeah, Twitter is what this is about rather than a (lovely) medium for communication.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:13
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Luigi Thirty posted:Please tell me why I should care, at all, about 16 year olds sending death threats to other 16 year olds on Twitter. I mean would you be ok if someone posted your name, where you live and a threat to rape and murder you because you talked about videogames? Or that they would start a shooting in a place of learning because you had the guile to want to engage in meaningful conversation? I really want to see the supreme courts take on Elonis v United States and how it would shape the internet. Hopefully we can get some teeth out on laws to stop this sort of behavior.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:14
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Did the GBS Gamergate thread get deleted? That thread was terrifying, in the sense that there are a large collection of goons who believed in the righteous cause and that Anita and Zoe and their ilk are attention whores and their defenders are 'SJWs' who are the real villians in this.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:14
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Did the GBS Gamergate thread get deleted? That thread was terrifying, in the sense that there are a large collection of goons who believed in the righteous cause and that Anita and Zoe and their ilk are attention whores and their defenders are 'SJWs' who are the real villians in this. That's not exactly a new thing on SA and basically gamergate in a nutshell.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:16
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Certainly misogyny is a problem, but a handful of teenagers post self indulgent and weird stuff on the internet, so misogyny is not actually a problem.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:17
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Certainly misogyny is a problem, but a handful of teenagers post self indulgent and weird stuff on the internet, so misogyny is not actually a problem. Most of the guys I have seen on youtube look in their late 20s/early 30s.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:18
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Certainly misogyny is a problem, but a handful of teenagers post self indulgent and weird stuff on the internet, so misogyny is not actually a problem.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:19
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Did the GBS Gamergate thread get deleted? That thread was terrifying, in the sense that there are a large collection of goons who believed in the righteous cause and that Anita and Zoe and their ilk are attention whores and their defenders are 'SJWs' who are the real villians in this. Yeah, it was pretty awful and got gassed. I feel like this thread could be a good way to keep a pulse on the situation, since a lot of the flak that got tossed around in GBS won't be tolerated here.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:23
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I mean would you be ok if someone posted your name, where you live and a threat to rape and murder you because you talked about videogames? Or that they would start a shooting in a place of learning because you had the guile to want to engage in meaningful conversation? I know what you mean by the second part, but that is seriously a slippery slope and needs to be handled with care. Not saying you don't have a point, but I REALLY don't like the idea of the current SCOTUS trying to tackle this one. It's more a lack of faith in their jurisprudence more than anything.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:23
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cucka posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jW4koYz2UM It does seem kind of odd that an anonymous person is saying they'll shoot up an event and the event runners just shrug and say second amendment.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:25
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Zeitgueist posted:That's not exactly a new thing on SA and basically gamergate in a nutshell. You might think that, being that you actually are one of the lunatic SJW boogeymen that #gamergate fears will escape the darkest dungeons of Tumblr and roam free once more.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:25
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Slanderer posted:You might think that, being that you actually are one of the lunatic SJW boogeymen that #gamergate fears will escape the darkest dungeons of Tumblr and roam free once more. Yes, truly I am an awful person for being vocal bout people being racist shits. I see you've left GBS so I could make you look like an idiot here again. 
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Oct 16, 2014 21:27
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duz posted:It does seem kind of odd that an anonymous person is saying they'll shoot up an event and the event runners just shrug and say second amendment. Considering it's a public school in the West and supposedly has their hands tied by the ignorant state government, it's not incredibly suprising.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:28
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Monaghan posted:I'm more baffled about how this whole thing started. It was hearsay from a pissed off loser ex boyfriend. Because that guy is a reliable source of information. I guess people believe anything that confirms their pre-existing prejudices. It's an excuse to be extremely misogynistic. That's about it. If their genders were reversed, nobody would have given a poo poo, because it's all based in misogyny. People get to gloat and feel like they have the moral high ground on an issue that they're actual huge shitheads about, so they turned it into a big deal.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:29
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All I can say is that I recommend installing the SJW -> skeleton browser plugin. It's much easier to read about how Publishers are always pandering to skeletons or that skeletons represent everything wrong with the gaming industry. What does #stopgamergate2014 mean? From the tag, I can't tell what it is for or against. Slanderer posted:You might think that, being that you actually are one of the lunatic skeleton boogeymen that #gamergate fears will escape the darkest dungeons of Tumblr and roam free once more. Dr. Arbitrary fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:30
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duz posted:It does seem kind of odd that an anonymous person is saying they'll shoot up an event and the event runners just shrug and say second amendment. To be fair state law is state law. People are specifically allowed to bring guns on to campuses provided they have the right permits, the university's hands are pretty much tied on that front. Ironically the reason you're allowed to carry a gun on to campus is to hopefully thwart campus shootings.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:30
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It's cool to see GG mentioned in places like the New York Times, because the NYT uncritically printed lies from the Bush administration that led to a war in Iraq that arguably is still ongoing over 10 years later. They did this for no reason better or worse than to sell a little ink and preserve a friendly relationship with their sources in the administration. The whole thing gets casually contextualized as a little inconsequential incestuousness in a niche trade publication because that's what journalism is in the 21st century and what moron doesn't know that. Oh, well, the sort that sends threats of rape arson and death, for one, maybe. Guess how mainstream media feels about that.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:30
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rkajdi posted:Considering it's a public school in the West and supposedly has their hands tied by the ignorant state government, it's not incredibly suprising. I meant odd for a sane person, not odd for America where it is perfectly normal to do this.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:31
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Twitter is horrible and one thing I love about my obscure convoluted language is that nobody loving uses "hashtag" in a sentence. Anyone who identifies as a "gamer" is generally an rear end in a top hat about something, usually about women. Adam Baldwin, though I enjoy his work, is a lunatic. So when you combine these three, the end result can be nothing but a train-wreck. I think a mock thread is about the only thing we can do about this.BetterToRuleInHell posted:Did the GBS Gamergate thread get deleted? That thread was terrifying, in the sense that there are a large collection of goons who believed in the righteous cause and that Anita and Zoe and their ilk are attention whores and their defenders are 'SJWs' who are the real villians in this. GBS is basically Twitter without a character limit as far as the quality of the debate is concerned. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:31
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There is a depressingly common misogynist streak amongst the nerd communities. Like the "fake geek girl" poo poo.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:32
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This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afgtd8ZsXzI 0:31
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Oct 16, 2014 21:33
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