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To combine with the above, a lot of companies are afraid of changing concepts that have been around for a long time. Look at what happened when a single D&D setting got large changes in 4e, and a bunch of gods died. Now imagine them saying 'oh yeah, and orcs? not actually completely evil, theres lots of neutral/good orcs, they just work different from how most humans would like.' Shadowrun is the same way - 5e feels like it wants to justify orcs and trolls as not dumber outright, but just with different brain chemistry. But they look at how the lower stat cap has been there since first edition and go 'ehhh maybe just pointing that out is enough...?' It's dumb, and bad, but nerds and thus nerd companies are afraid of change, so we get racism from the 80s when games first came out, still out there today because they're afraid to change it.
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Mar 12, 2015 21:50
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KittyEmpress posted:To combine with the above, a lot of companies are afraid of changing concepts that have been around for a long time. Look at what happened when a single D&D setting got large changes in 4e, and a bunch of gods died. Now imagine them saying 'oh yeah, and orcs? not actually completely evil, theres lots of neutral/good orcs, they just work different from how most humans would like.' Shadowrun is the same way - 5e feels like it wants to justify orcs and trolls as not dumber outright, but just with different brain chemistry. But they look at how the lower stat cap has been there since first edition and go 'ehhh maybe just pointing that out is enough...?' We've seen this very sentiment in the now-departed Grognards.txt. How many posts were there about 'This is bullshit, unless orcs are literally baby eating monsters this game is too PC!' Or the people who feel like 'Yes you should totally murder the children of Evil Races because they're Racially Evil' is an important part of the Old School Experience.
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Mar 12, 2015 21:54
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Apologies if I'm misunderstanding anything as I cut into this conversation, but... Presenting an alien (so to speak) race with differing cognitive structures, reproductive cycles, cultural norms, etc. to western European humans and making the point that it's not actually OK to discriminate against them or judge them is a good one if you can pull it off. I mean, it's not as though acceptance through complete assimilation is some sort of victory for progressivism either. Or at least, it shouldn't be. If orcs or whatever are just humans with dark green skin and maybe slightly different dental profiles then them being accepted doesn't actually prove anything whatsoever, any more than the token clean-cut black man in a suit and tie, or the monogamous gay couple with a suburban home, golden retriever and an adopted kid. I will accept as reasonable the argument that a tradgames medium utterly lacks the subtlety needed to pull this off, however.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:05
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JerryLee posted:Apologies if I'm misunderstanding anything as I cut into this conversation, but... I think this would be fantastic if it were done correctly. Rather than "inherently greedy and evil," a broader discussion of different value priority and alternate logic would make for a fascinating role play experience. At a certain point there will always be commonalities (i.e. my dog is very different from me, but she still wants food, a warm place to sleep, companionship, etc.), but it would be interesting to play someone who doesn't have a concept of separateness from other people, or experiences the world mainly through electrolocation rather than visually, or (to steal an example from online) will never take off his bird mask under any circumstances. But pulling it off? That's the trick. That's always the trick.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:32
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There's a pretty good line between creating different sapient species and races with different intelligence levels and all that and coupling those same races with real world stereotypes and depictions of real marginalized people. The former can be done competently and non-offensively even in games, but the latter can't. Like, I don't know why they needed a stand in for Black and Latino people in Shadowrun. Fantasy races in games shouldn't be trying to draw from real world peoples because poo poo like the intelligence cap and stuff. Even more innocent examples, in my opinion, like the Redguard from the Elder Scroll series messes that stuff up.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:36
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Toph Bei Fong posted:I think this would be fantastic if it were done correctly. One of the players in my current Inverse World game is playing a creature from Outside, the nebulous dimension/space/location/set of alternate physical laws that exists beyond the Worldcrust. Outsiders in our game are basically fragments of a single existential mind, individual thoughts and extensions that "eat" by convincing other fragments to join their collective, "breed" by splitting apart when they're too big and incoherent, and "die" when they're sufficiently discorporated that all the pieces that made them what they were are in separate locations. When a fragment is shoved into Invells, they're forced to maintain a single shape if they want to function at all in the Inside's alien set of laws, all of reality seems to be made of hideous, discordant notes instead of a single symphony, and all living things on the Inside having individuality is nearly incomprehensible. Some accidentally fall through the cracks of the Worldcrust and get stuck, but most are summoned in because wizards are assholes and want pet murder machines, or use their bizarre, reality-warping existence to fuel certain kinds of magical artifacts, which is decidedly unpleasant for the Outsider. Imagine having your frame of existence ripped open to comprehend everything Azathoth does, only it's the other way around and Azathoth is being squeezed into entirely too few dimensions like some sort of hosed up eldritch bonsai kitten. Fragments desperately want to go home, but rarely have the ability to without help from Insiders, and their panicked, unwitting flailing usually manifests as horrific mind-shattering violence when freed of bondage, which makes everybody Inside think that the Outside is some horrible nightmare universe of pain and violence populated by eldritch demons that can only be forced to obey, which means they treat Outsiders with violence and domination, which means the Outsiders panic and act out... My player's character is a Collector fluffed as a set of fragments that manifests as a cloud of darkness and cuttlefish eyes, wrapped up in elaborate bandages, robes, masks, and magic seals to keep coherent and disguise itself as roughly human. It's actually managed to figure out how to communicate with Insiders in a way that doesn't drive them insane, which let it (or her, as it's treated as vaguely feminine) start going around disguised as a peddler of strange wares, buying up wayward Outsider artifacts and absorbing their fragments into herself as a living ark that she intends to take back to the Outside. She also hopes that her experiences will teach the Outside mind how the Inside works so any that get accidentally stuck Inside can avoid problems in the future. If my players can write loving  races that leave room for dramatic conflict based on misunderstandings without being racist as gently caress, then so can professional-rear end writers 
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Mar 12, 2015 23:55
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Toph Bei Fong posted:To add to what folks say above, some of this stuff comes out whether you mean it to or not. My favorite bit of Awkward Drow Bullshit comes from 4E where one of the drow-specific Epic Destinies you can choose from is "Redeemed Drow." Now understand that Epic Destinies in 4E are where your character hits such a high level that they become gods, apotheosize into pure magic, give birth to new planes of existence, become undying legends that will live on through the ages, etc. So what's the grand reward for the Redeemed Drow? Why, being reborn as a light-skinned elf! The blood-taint of your sins made manifest upon your skin expunged from your body! Isn't that just wonderful?
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Mar 13, 2015 00:17
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DnD elfiness doesn't make too much sense in any way generally. You have dark elf, sun elf, sea elf, wood elf, high elf, probably desert elf somewhere (besides just Valenar Elves in Eberron who have no special stats). We don't have dark human, wood human, high human, because that would be, uh, maybe using the word 'race' back in its original definition in an unpleasant way.
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Mar 13, 2015 01:14
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Kai Tave posted:My favorite bit of Awkward Drow Bullshit comes from 4E where one of the drow-specific Epic Destinies you can choose from is "Redeemed Drow." Now understand that Epic Destinies in 4E are where your character hits such a high level that they become gods, apotheosize into pure magic, give birth to new planes of existence, become undying legends that will live on through the ages, etc. So what's the grand reward for the Redeemed Drow? Why, being reborn as a light-skinned elf! The blood-taint of your sins made manifest upon your skin expunged from your body! Isn't that just wonderful? The only underground elves in D&D that aren't full of terrible racial problems are Eilistrae's offworld Drow in Planescape who are all Svartalfar, aka they are Drow who have names like SVEN and BRIGITTE and they sail in longboats and drink a lot. Maybe svartalfar (Northern Reaches Gazetteer) in Mystara too, I think they were just average looking elves who spent all their time designing traps. But otherwise the lesson is clear: In D&D, racism emanates from the center of the earth, the closer to it you are the more racist your portrayal in-game is. (WotC actually tried to solve the "Drow were cursed with black skin" issue by explaining that, no, you see, the uncorrupted Drow had brown skin, being demonically corrupted just made it blacker! Redeemed Drow was supposed to play into this - i.e. you were supposed to be reborn as the brown skinned elves, but this is buried in an 8-novel series that also spells out that the majority of the Drow are of mixed race heritage and therefore not able to be redeemed!)
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Mar 13, 2015 01:58
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^Warhammer 40k's policy of never ever having more than one black person on screen at the same time* has likely solved more problems than its caused. Genocidal crackers 24/7. *salamanders don't count.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:23
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Ronwayne posted:^Warhammer 40k's policy of never ever having more than one black person on screen at the same time* has likely solved more problems than its caused. Genocidal crackers 24/7. Wasn't the deal with the Salamanders chapter some sort of hilarious clusterfuck where the original description talked about them having black skin (due to their geneseed, all space marines tend to be pretty cookie cutter) and so some Games Workshop artist painted up a bunch of them in African skintones. Only whoops, there was later an official retraction where it turns out that they actually meant "coal black, not, y'know, the other sort of black."
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Mar 13, 2015 02:26
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Kai Tave posted:Wasn't the deal with the Salamanders chapter some sort of hilarious clusterfuck where the original description talked about them having black skin (due to their geneseed, all space marines tend to be pretty cookie cutter) and so some Games Workshop artist painted up a bunch of them in African skintones. Only whoops, there was later an official retraction where it turns out that they actually meant "coal black, not, y'know, the other sort of black." Their skin color was referred to as 'a genetic flaw'. Wonderful implications, considering GW's 'African' figure line way back when for Fantasy.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:29
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This being said, I'll say straight out the 40k rpg for playing a Chaos dude is amazingly Whyzzard free, considering the source material. I'm talking like Owod-tasteful holocaust book levels of (relatively) unembaressing.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:34
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Well, also, FFG is way better about that kind of stuff than GW itself.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:37
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Yeah, the Salamanders thing was all GW, this was way before the 40K RPGs were a thing. I just think it's hilarious that they had to issue an official retraction to the effect of "when we said 'black skin' we meant, y'know, not like that."
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Mar 13, 2015 02:41
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The Dark Angels chapter of Space Marines is headed by their Primarch Lion El'Jonson, and they have a -~*terrible secret*~- that half of them are evil. Lionel Johnson was a guy who wrote a poem called "Dark Angel" about how much it sucked to be a closeted gay guy.
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Mar 13, 2015 02:44
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FFG still makes sure everyone knows that Slaanesh is the god of hentai in addition to all that other stuff no one really seems to care about, like perfection or any other form of hedonism.
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Mar 13, 2015 03:47
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:FFG still makes sure everyone knows that Slaanesh is the god of hentai in addition to all that other stuff no one really seems to care about, like perfection or any other form of hedonism. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here? FFG brings way more subtlety to the various gods than any other source I've seen.
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Mar 13, 2015 04:19
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Also the Slaaneshi Black Crusade book is remarkably free of Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Agony, Savage Genitalia, or Nazi Rape Machines.
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Mar 13, 2015 04:24
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Yeah. There is a considerable lack of 4chan style 'lol pricks and dicks' going on with FFG slaanesh, compared to the source material. The dickgirl mutation* (which makes you incredibly popular and socially adept) aside. *I'm being somewhat uncharitable. Its somewhat vauge and could mean either you're a hentai star or David Bowie. Either/or. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Mar 13, 2015 |
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Mar 13, 2015 04:25
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A futanari mutation that makes you sexually attractive to everyone?! How the frick aren't everyone cultists by now.
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Mar 13, 2015 05:02
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Because there are limits.
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Mar 13, 2015 05:08
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Cmon man that pic is disingenuous. Slaanesh gives you drugs and sex, Nurgle just gives the byproduct (AIDS and hepatitis)
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Mar 13, 2015 05:12
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Yes. You've always been our little forum nurgle.
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Mar 13, 2015 05:15
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I am pretty much an AIDS elemental by now, little brother.
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Mar 13, 2015 05:19
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:I am pretty much an AIDS elemental by now, little brother. The worst campaign villain.
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Mar 13, 2015 06:13
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kannonfodder posted:The worst campaign villain. Especially since no one will admit it's a problem until people who matter start dying. (I'll stop before this gets any worse).
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Mar 13, 2015 10:24
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Mods please namechange Plutonis to AIDS Elemental thanks
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Mar 13, 2015 12:52
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TheLovablePapaNurgle
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Mar 13, 2015 15:19
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