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slap me silly posted:Maybe religious wasn't the best word. What I mean is, it's not a rational statement and it's not supported by any science, yet AA sells this idea constantly. And it is kind of a consequence of the 12 step framework, which has an explicit and fundamental religious orientation despite that people will say "you don't have to be religious, it's just what it means to you!" I don't feel that way, though I do agree that the prayers they do are definitely centered around organized religion (i.e. Serenity Prayer). Those are literally said at the beginning and end of every meeting, and you don't have to recite it. The social support is huge, and that's a main reason that I go. I compare the amount of knowledge there to any other wiki. Odds are if you are having a problem staying sober for whatever reason there is always someone who has experienced that same issue, and in turn can offer advice if asked for it. I feel as though the religious aspect is really the most off-putting factor of AA, and in places like college towns, it definitely doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as when I go to meetings when I'm home visiting family.
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Dec 11, 2015 22:33
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Oh, here is the big book: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous The first time I read that I found myself hooked and nodding along quite often. It is a quick easy read. Chapter 4 is for agnostics and atheists. Pohl fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 22:52
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slap me silly posted:Scientifically speaking, I think probably a big benefit of AA is the social support, and that's nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately it seems to be irretrievably mixed up with the religious guilt thing.
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Dec 12, 2015 01:28
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Pohl posted:AA has helped me and it has hurt me. The camaraderie was great when I really wanted to be sober, but then I started to get a lot of pressure. Like, a lot of pressure from the regulars. They wanted me to work the program, when I just wanted to show up and hang out somewhere safe. I was doing the work with my outpatient group and my counselors, I didn't feel like I needed or wanted to do the AA work, too. Man, you're describing an old high school friend in creepy detail. He vanished for ten years, then suddenly pops up on Facebook preaching the Twelve Steps and about how no person could possibly avoid or escape addiction without Jesus (and refused to explain how most of us had easily done just that). It seems to me that he just traded one addiction for another. All his friends have fled him just as they did when he started stealing from us to support his meth addiction (My Disease made me do that!), but it isn't because he's an insufferable dick, but because he is now in the Light, and Darkness always flees from the Light. Darkness also apparently is able to hold down a steady job and doesn't need a sponsor to stop it from sucking dick for another hit. It can also enjoy an occasional beer without completely falling apart. The problem with the "Spiritual" bullshit is still the basic message of AA. You are powerless to ever overcome your addiction. You're defeated from the start. I get that addiction is a disease, but to me, that just makes AA and its ilk even more harmful. A cancer patient isn't treated by other cancer sufferers, they're treated by highly trained doctors. Why should an addict be any different? Addiction is either truly a disease and needs to be treated by qualified professionals, or it isn't and can be poorly handled by other unqualified addicts who eventually need to decide not to be addicts. It can't be both, but AA seems to want it to be. Also, let's stop pretending the god AA refers to isn't obviously the Christian god. The Bible fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 12, 2015 |
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Dec 12, 2015 01:54
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The Bible posted:Man, you're describing an old high school friend in creepy detail. I think anyone acting sanctimonious and overly pious drives people away. Sure, we can admit that the god AA refers to is the Christian god. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck. Some people definitely do act high and mighty. I refer to these people as the "Deacons", they claim to have 20+ years of sobriety and act like senators at their home groups. Relationships do happen in AA, and I find that to be absolutely ridiculous. Some people are annoying, narcissistic, hypocritical, and uneducated. But there exist a few people in every group that genuinely do want to be there to offer help to newcomers in AA. You take what you need from the meeting, nothing more or less. Keep this in mind, the steps don't exist for everyone else. They exist to help the person move on from past mistakes. You think taking a fierce moral inventory, and apologizing to everyone you've ever wronged is everybody else? Hell no, those people don't care at all. They might appreciate it, but they're not going to be like: "It's totally okay that you raided the open bar and felt up my wife's sister at my wedding, lets have dinner sometime." They'll probably just say "sure, whatever". Is AA more harmful? Possibly to some, but not all. And yes, you're right addiction and mental health should be treated by qualified professionals.I don't consider AA as therapy. Additionally, I don't think I've ever heard of someone refer to a person as a normie, maybe those people aren't at my groups. But, I will say that I would never chastise a person for drinking, or doing any kind of substance. That's their path, I have my own.
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Dec 12, 2015 07:04
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Pohl posted:Oh, here is the big book: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous Thanks for the link. I've never read any of The Big Book before, let alone the chapter specifically dealing with what course should be followed by agnostics and atheists. I was attempting to keep an open mind, but chapter 4 not only promotes faith as The Cure, but comes right out with the notion that there's no such thing as an atheist, only a self-deluded believer, and comes as close as it can to claiming that the root cause of most addictions is lack of faith plus personal arrogance. Amazon suggests that the latest edition of the Big Book came out in 2002, but chapter 4 reads as if it hasn't been significantly updated since the 1930's, (complete with mention of the Wright Brothers and their flying machine, in which they apparently had 'childlike faith' though all the smartalecs thought the project impossible): The Big Book, Chapter 4, page 49 posted:The prosaic steel girder is a mass of electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed. These tiny bodies are governed by precise laws, and these laws hold true throughout the material world. Science tells us so. We have no reason to doubt it. When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn’t so. We read wordy books and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. The Big Book, Chapter 4, page 55 posted:Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself. We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us. I will never again secretly reckon that maybe someone with an addiction problem should just grin and bear the religion-based aspects of AA/NA because those ideas are not essential to their recovery. I was being ignorant; they absolutely are presented as essential, at least in the Big Book. So my question is -- how prevalent, in practice, is the very uncompromising attitude to faith in God taken in chapter 4? Do most groups just gloss over it and get on with trying to create ways of living that contain fewer places for addiction to get its hooks in, or is a non-believer generally expected to manifest some faith at some stage? (I realise that all things AA/NA are almost certainly different in the US to how they are here in the UK -- I'm interested in how the faith issue is handled in groups from both those countries, and any others that SA goons may hail from.)
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Dec 12, 2015 12:40
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Carnival of Shrews posted:Thanks for the link. I've never read any of The Big Book before, let alone the chapter specifically dealing with what course should be followed by agnostics and atheists. I was attempting to keep an open mind, but chapter 4 not only promotes faith as The Cure, but comes right out with the notion that there's no such thing as an atheist, only a self-deluded believer, and comes as close as it can to claiming that the root cause of most addictions is lack of faith plus personal arrogance. Amazon suggests that the latest edition of the Big Book came out in 2002, but chapter 4 reads as if it hasn't been significantly updated since the 1930's, (complete with mention of the Wright Brothers and their flying machine, in which they apparently had 'childlike faith' though all the smartalecs thought the project impossible): Clearly by "God" they mean "ping-pong ball".
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Dec 12, 2015 12:56
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The Bible posted:Clearly by "God" they mean "ping-pong ball". That is how it starts, then the pressure comes in later. They seriously tell you, just be spiritual, that is all we are asking. Then as time passes they start to pressure you to accept God into your life. This can vary significantly from group to group, but every single group I attended did this to me, even the liberal hippy group that was essentially an "outcast" group. I live in a new state now, it may be different here, I don't know. I have a feeling it isn't, however, because we had new people join our groups from other states and they were often worse about this poo poo than the existing members already were. It is a serious issue, but it is easy to overlook when you are beaten down and need help, and AA is the only thing you have to look forward to. I can't overstate how lonely it is to be a recovering alcoholic or addict, and how bright and shiny AA looks to you since they are essentially the only people in the world that understand or accept you. It is loving enticing, you want to fit in. Go along to get along: A famous AA slogan.  Edit: I was a weird case because I was in treatment and going to AA by choice. All the other newbies had 'green cards'. 'Green cards' were the state issued mandatory "You must go to AA" as part of your sentence, bullshit. Those people didn't care, they were doing it because they had to. I'll never forget my first meeting, after it ended, 90% of the room filed into a line to have their 'Green Cards' stamped and signed so their probation officer wouldn't toss them in jail. I'll be honest and say that the meeting made me feel a lot of hope and like I had found something real, then reality broke in. I just sat stunned as person after person had their 'green card' stamped and signed before they left to get on with their lives. Being there voluntarily, I really wondered how hosed I was. Pohl fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 12, 2015 |
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Dec 12, 2015 18:13
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The Bible posted:It seems to me that he just traded one addiction for another. That is how I came to view it long before I quit going. These people werern't healthy and good, they were addicted to this thing. Pohl fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Dec 12, 2015 |
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Dec 12, 2015 18:25
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Carnival of Shrews posted:So my question is -- how prevalent, in practice, is the very uncompromising attitude to faith in God taken in chapter 4? Do most groups just gloss over it and get on with trying to create ways of living that contain fewer places for addiction to get its hooks in, or is a non-believer generally expected to manifest some faith at some stage? It was always presented as not important, just be spiritual and do the work. That was the surface, the underlying message that was basically driven home later was always, GOD. I was even told to go to church by my Psychiatrist, an addiction specialist. Go to church and meet better people, he told me. My loving doctor. I fired him.
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Dec 12, 2015 18:30
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Frank Viola posted:Is AA more harmful? Possibly to some, but not all. And yes, you're right addiction and mental health should be treated by qualified professionals.I don't consider AA as therapy. Additionally, I don't think I've ever heard of someone refer to a person as a normie, maybe those people aren't at my groups. But, I will say that I would never chastise a person for drinking, or doing any kind of substance. That's their path, I have my own. Well, here you go: https://www.google.com/search?q=aa+normie&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 I will say, thanks for this thread, and I'm sorry if it seems like I'm making GBS threads on it. I'm not, but I am giving my honest opinion of what happened to me and what I experienced. I don't hate AA and I can see my rear end back in an AA chair in the near future. My eyes will be wide open this time, however. Seriously, where the gently caress else am I going to go?
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Dec 12, 2015 18:37
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photomikey posted:I disagree. The social thing may play into it, but letting go of the pressure and thinking "God will handle it" (whether it be Jesus Christ or the ping pong ball) can be a big deal. This is a big thing that I've realized in my life. You quit loving up, everything gets better. If you aren't in jail or being hunted by someone, you can get over anything. Seriously, anything is almost fixable if you work to make it better. People are forgiving in a lot of cases. You hosed up? Ok, now you are doing better and working at being a better person. That isn't GOD giving you a pass, that is your society saying "join us". I have a lot of issues and I freak out about poo poo, but in the end I know it will all be ok if I'm sober and on medication. I'm not giving in, I'm being realistic. People like me when I'm not acting like a lunatic, imagine that.
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Dec 12, 2015 18:48
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One thing I think is rarely said and extremely important, is that there is no real overarching xA hierarchy. There are national organizations for NA and AA, but they only really exist to organize national and regional conferences, print literature and occasional fight legal battles relating to the anonymity of xA. And that's a good -and- bad thing. It's good because there's no ability to commercialize or corporatize XA, there's no records that could be used to track anyone, and it kinda puts the kibosh on the shrill cry of ITS A CULT. How can you have a cult with no leader?( please, don't answer this, it's a derail that never ends well) And anyone can start a meeting at any time without permission from anyone. But it can be bad thing because ANYBODY can start an xA meeting - the only requirements are adherence to the Twelve Principles and Twelve Steps, a place to meet and some drunks/addicts. So you have a tremendous variance in meeting quality and tone. There are loving terrible meetings where broken people tell war stories for an hour and the whole thing is infused with blatant religious bullshit. There are great meetings with excellent speakers who stay on target, are amenable to helping newcomers without being overbearing, and keep the "God bullshit" to a bare minimum. But you're never gonna know which is which without dragging your miserable, addicted rear end to a bunch of meetings, and it's hard enough to make yourself go to one. Also, they tend to be in church rec rooms and poo poo because there aren't a huge amount of places that are willing to rent a room to a bunch of scraggly-rear end addicts for a couple nights a week for a tiny amount of money. Which turns some people off, quite understandably. I don't attend xA meetings regularly myself, although I have and probably will again take friends to their first meeting for moral support. I'm a staunch atheist who's higher power is an ancient grove of sequoia redwood trees, and I strongly believe the AA Big Book is itself the biggest enemy re public opinion of AA. It was written like 75 years ago by people who weren't writers and is full of misogyny, outdated language and religious references that are unneeded. Contrast the Big Book with the NA Basic Text, which was written in about 1980 by professionals, is updated regularly, and the difference is night and day. But recovering alcoholics tend to view any changes to the Big Book about as well as NRA members view gun control, and I sorta understand the reason - they look at it as something that saved their LIVES, so to them it's sacrosanct.
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Dec 12, 2015 20:16
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JnnyThndrs posted:One thing I think is rarely said and extremely important, is that there is no real overarching xA hierarchy. There are national organizations for NA and AA, but they only really exist to organize national and regional conferences, print literature and occasional fight legal battles relating to the anonymity of xA. That's an interesting perspective.. Yes the big book is out of date.. I will read the NA basic text.. It sounds interesting.
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Dec 12, 2015 22:00
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The Big Book was written in the 30's and 40's, and in many aspects is out of date, although they have updated many of the personal stories to include women and minority voices. The underlying principles of the 12 steps and 12 traditions though are pretty solid. I can understand the great reluctance to accept the spiritual side, because I was that guy for several decades, and kept going back out and staying drunk. The big shift for me was when I realized that I truly could use my own personal concept of higher power, and kick everything about religion to the curb. No one pressures me to accept any particular deity. (even though the Big Book was clearly written for Christians) I hear an awful lot of denial in this thread that sounds like the version of me that used to scoff at sobriety from my lofty barstool. If your group is full of sanctimonious assholes, find another group. After several hospitalizations, two stints in rehab and 7 or 8 failed attempts with three different sobriety programs, (Rational Recovery SMART Recovery, and AA) What I've learned is that AA works. I'm a little over 5 years sober, after a 30 year drinking career. YMMV.
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Dec 14, 2015 00:12
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AA is explicitly Christian. The entire model is ripped almost verbatim from the step tenets of the Oxford Group/First Century Christian Fellowship an Evangelical Christian organization based on surrendering to god's plan to overcome fear and selfishness.
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Dec 14, 2015 22:22
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Cholmondeley posted:The Big Book was written in the 30's and 40's, and in many aspects is out of date, although they have updated many of the personal stories to include women and minority voices. The underlying principles of the 12 steps and 12 traditions though are pretty solid. I can understand the great reluctance to accept the spiritual side, because I was that guy for several decades, and kept going back out and staying drunk. Hey! Way to go!
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Dec 15, 2015 00:20
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PT6A posted:I believe it's because they don't actually "force" you so much as they tell you "do it or go to jail." It's not much of a choice, but apparently it's enough to avoid breaking the law. They have actually been taking to court over this, for example in Orange County, CA the courts can no longer mandate that you attend AA because it is a religious organization. It is not the case everywhere.
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Dec 15, 2015 04:06
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The Bible posted:The problem with the "Spiritual" bullshit is still the basic message of AA. You are powerless to ever overcome your addiction. You're defeated from the start. This is not true at all. Step one says: quote:We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable. Nothing here about powerless over addiction, just alcohol. The fact that you are considering AA shows that you are trying to put down your addiction and live the healthy life that everyone deserves. By going through step one, you are admitting to yourself that you cannot control your own drinking and are seeking outside help. "I cannot, on my own volition, stop after I've started nor can I quit on my own." After having that first drink you are hard pressed to not have a second, third or fourth... But the twelve steps and the program of AA are designed to absolutely give you hope to overcome addiction. That's the point of the process. edit: Cholmondeley posted:I'm a little over 5 years sober, after a 30 year drinking career. Congrats on your sobriety! Have you been to the addiction/recovery thread? It would be nice to hear from someone with a good stretch of sobriety under your belt. Agrikk fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Dec 15, 2015 |
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Dec 15, 2015 04:09
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Cholmondeley posted:The Big Book was written in the 30's and 40's, and in many aspects is out of date, although they have updated many of the personal stories to include women and minority voices. The underlying principles of the 12 steps and 12 traditions though are pretty solid. I can understand the great reluctance to accept the spiritual side, because I was that guy for several decades, and kept going back out and staying drunk. I really like the big book and I think it is a good read. It definitely had a lot of OMG moments for me, on a personal level. YMMV for sure, but the big book will kick your rear end if you are an alcoholic. You just can't deny that they are loving talking about you. Edit: Definitely, good for you. Stay sober and healthy. Pohl fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Dec 19, 2015 |
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Dec 19, 2015 07:52
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From my experienced with NA (I'm am opiate addict), the only real benefit comes from being able to talk with other people in a similar situation and have access to them as a support group. And this is, indeed, a very significant benefit. But the actual 12 steps seem completely useless and were what ended up driving me away from the program. I ended up finding a similar group (that actually allowed people on suboxone maintenance like myself to discuss this; NA would not allow suboxone) that was more of a pure support group and, in my opinion, far more beneficial. There's also this other group called SMART Recovery (IIRC), but they unfortunately don't have any meeting locations near where I live. Apparently they take a more scientific/evidence-based approach to recovery. One thing that always bugged me about the NA group I attended is that they would claim to allow you freedom of expression but then vehementally fight any sort of disagreement you might have (in my case I thought it was hosed up that I couldn't talk about my suboxone maintenance). It's not that they would get angry; they would just act like they knew you were wrong and not even consider what you're saying. I ended up just mentally censoring myself to make sure that what I said would be considered acceptable by the rest of the group. It sort of reminded me of a cult or MLM type environment where people are extremely insecure and sensitive to having their views challenged. I think one reason I didn't benefit as much is that I never had any need to go through all the revelations many addicts do. From the first time I used I knew what was going to happen; I was never in denial about my situation. I also know that I'm not alone and other people have gone through the same thing; hearing other people talk about experiencing the same things as me kind of has diminishing returns in terms of the comfort it gives. Another thing that makes support groups useful to many/most addicts is the fact that it gives them a social group that doesn't involve the use of drugs/alcohol. This also doesn't apply to me; I'm the only person I know who uses, since the thing I initially abused was ordered legally off the internet. All my friends are sober, so I don't face the same dilemma many addicts do where they need to sacrifice their existing social life in order to get away from drugs. To sum things up, I think AA/NA can definitely help people but it would be better if the 12 step stuff were removed and they were simply replaced with a general support group where alcoholics/addicts could meet and discuss their problems. Cholmondeley posted:The Big Book was written in the 30's and 40's, and in many aspects is out of date, although they have updated many of the personal stories to include women and minority voices. The underlying principles of the 12 steps and 12 traditions though are pretty solid. I can understand the great reluctance to accept the spiritual side, because I was that guy for several decades, and kept going back out and staying drunk. This post illustrates some of what I'm talking about. You say "if your group is full of sanctimonious assholes, find another group", but in the same post make some condescending "heh you sound like me before I knew I was wrong, if only you knew the truth  " comment. It seems like a very common refrain among 12-step devotees that anyone who isn't fully supportive of the method just isn't doing it right.
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Dec 19, 2015 09:37
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I will say the one issue I notice with any method of addiction recovery is that everyone acts like their method is the surefire 100% method for everyone, when clearly that isn't the case. Different people quit by different methods, what works for some people won't work for others. I quit smoking and had people telling me their quit stories for every method under the sun, in the end you just have to be serious about quitting and buckle down. Now I get why most recovery methods don't say "if this doesn't work then just try X, Y and Z", an addict is going to notice that and just use it to make an excuse. But you hear about a guy 12 years sober following whatever method and he's in tears because he still desperately wants a drink, and all his friends of that method will tell him to just double down on the same method that isn't working for him instead of saying "You know what man, this clearly isn't working for you, maybe you should try a different approach in order to remain sober". That's my chief problem with current addiction recovery thinking.
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Dec 20, 2015 02:58
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I hear what you're saying. AA and NA are wildly different animals, and I'm not really qualified to speak about NA, having only been to a handful of meetings while in rehab. In theory, they are very similar, but in practice, are necessarily quite different. As for the group aspect of these programs, I agree that it's a huge component of why these programs work, but... And this is a huge but... The 12 steps are essential as a framework and game plan for that group dynamic. The 12 steps, and the 12 traditions serve the purpose of dismantling and rebuilding the ego. The pride and stubbornness that keep so many of us from seeking help, or even admitting there is a problem, are as much of a killer as the booze we drink. Left to our own devices, without the guidance of the 12 and 12, individual groups would descend into chaos, indeed, the big book is full of stories of just that kind of crap happening in the early days. I don't believe there is "one correct way" to follow the program, any more than I think there is one, single correct religion, or one approach to finding a higher power in your life. The key is finding a way that works for you... To keep trying, after you fail at it, and to not bullshit yourself.
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Dec 20, 2015 04:25
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Everyone really interested in this thread should listen to the latest episode of NPR's RadioLab podcast, 'The Fix'. Part of it goes into AA and its success rate and how our mentality regarding addiction and the rise of AA has stymied attempts at a medical fix for addiction, even though said fixes seem to exist.
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Dec 22, 2015 16:20
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Does anyone have any experience with AlAnon, for friends and relatives of people struggling with alcoholism? Does it help at all, as a support group? Are there similar criticisms to the common AA criticisms I've been reading in this thread and elsewhere?
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Dec 22, 2015 22:04
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Polaron posted:Everyone really interested in this thread should listen to the latest episode of NPR's RadioLab podcast, 'The Fix'. Part of it goes into AA and its success rate and how our mentality regarding addiction and the rise of AA has stymied attempts at a medical fix for addiction, even though said fixes seem to exist. I have actually heard this podcast. I like it a lot and I feel that rehab and addiction facilities that use AA instead of doing. Actual medical addiction services are being lazy and shouldn't be allowed to bill patients for it. At the same time I don't think there is a magic bullet fix for alcoholism either.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:40
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Now see, I don't care about the Jesus stuff one bit, but OP, how can AA be truly anonymous if nobody wears masks to hide their identity?
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Dec 23, 2015 23:21
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Up Circle posted:Now see, I don't care about the Jesus stuff one bit, but OP, how can AA be truly anonymous if nobody wears masks to hide their identity? From the way I see it. Everyone in the meeting may see each other in daily life. When you do you can carry on as normal, say hi, or even if you both want to talk about AA and it's agreed upon you are both comfortable about it you can talk about it. It's more about not going up to someone saying hi, and telling other people around they are in AA.
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Dec 24, 2015 17:01
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Frank Viola posted:It's more about not going up to someone saying hi, and telling other people around they are in AA. Not in my experience.
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Dec 25, 2015 01:44
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As someone who frequents local coffee shops fairly regularly, I come across plenty of AA sponsor-sponsee meetups. So far as I can tell, they involve reading a few verses from the "Big Book" aloud, bullshitting about what it means to them, and then audibly leching after whatever young coeds wander innocently past. All in all, can't say that I'm impressed. What exactly is the supposed to be achieved in such Bible study? It sounds like things would be better led by a professional addiction therapy specialist conducting actual cognitive behavior therapy.
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Dec 25, 2015 06:55
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Cugel the Clever posted:As someone who frequents local coffee shops fairly regularly, I come across plenty of AA sponsor-sponsee meetups. So far as I can tell, they involve reading a few verses from the "Big Book" aloud, bullshitting about what it means to them, and then audibly leching after whatever young coeds wander innocently past. All in all, can't say that I'm impressed. I went through a 4 month CBT therapy before and in conjunction with AA, and those people are insufferable. Not representative at the population, and if my sponsor tried to make me read the AA big book aloud in a coffee shop I'd walk out and probably never go back to an AA meeting again. What can I say? People are pretty dumb. The Bible posted:Not in my experience. By all means. Enlighten us.
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Dec 25, 2015 17:01
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Frank Viola posted:By all means. Enlighten us. I guess I've just met a lot of people who are quite happy to tell everyone at every opportunity that they are in AA. Living one of the most religious cities in one of the most religious states in America, you run into a lot of 12 Steppers who are just on fire for that poo poo. The Bible fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Dec 26, 2015 |
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Dec 26, 2015 00:07
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Frank may i suggest you ad a link to the addiction/recovery thread in TCC in your OP, because it's full of people in various stages of detox and 12-step work, has an incredible amount of resources, and goes fully into detail about what AA meetings are like and what many other 12 step group meetings are like. People with decades of recovery can be found there for those who need to chat. It's also the most positive and supportive thread on the whole internet. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3375646
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Dec 26, 2015 06:07
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The Bible posted:
I know people who are actively AGAINST the concept of AA because it's acceptance as 'the most effective way to deal with alcoholism' in American society is really detracting from funding and research and the general scientific / policy conversation on you know, the actual most scientific and efficient way to treat people with alcoholism.
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Dec 26, 2015 07:47
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HollywoodDialysis posted:I know people who are actively AGAINST the concept of AA because it's acceptance as 'the most effective way to deal with alcoholism' in American society is really detracting from funding and research and the general scientific / policy conversation on you know, the actual most scientific and efficient way to treat people with alcoholism. I also know people who are strongly against it for women, especially abused women, because the focus on accepting that they are not in control is counterproductive.
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Dec 27, 2015 23:31
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Skeesix posted:I also know people who are strongly against it for women, especially abused women, because the focus on accepting that they are not in control is counterproductive. It is more that AA is full of people that are predators, and even if they stop using, they are still predators. Women new to the program are vulnerable as hell, obviously, and you have these guys that are veterans at taking advantage of them. It is a rather sickening thing when you get into it and witness it. It is so bad, the veteran women of AA basically surround the new women and won't let a man near her. The veterans know, and do their best to shield the new women, but it doesn't always work. I wish I was overstating this, but if anything, I'm understating it. It's horrible.
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Jan 2, 2016 04:51
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Gotta say, AA sure seems as if it does more harm than good, overall. If it matches the success rate of doing no rehab program at all, it would seem to me that it is as good as no rehab program at all, and probably worse with the previously mentioned tendencies to divert money away from real rehab efforts and apparently hosting predators. If alcoholism is a disease, see a doctor. Other addicts will probably just make poo poo worse.
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Jan 2, 2016 08:15
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That does surprise me though. At the very least you'd think the fellowship of other people who are also trying to quit would make it slightly more effective.
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Jan 2, 2016 11:31
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Geniasis posted:That does surprise me though. At the very least you'd think the fellowship of other people who are also trying to quit would make it slightly more effective. I'd be a little skeptical about this. Alcoholics, at least the ones I have met online, always seem to be looking for an excuse as to why they can't give up, and why everything is pointless. If AA does no good, it seems to me that alcoholics need to figure out a better way of holding group support meetings, not simply throwing in the towel and going "Welp, it doesn't work, might as well drink myself to death." It reminds me of those people who say it is impossible to lose weight. I know in my own circle of acquaintance, people who have lost significant weight and kept it off. I know people who have drunk too much and stopped drinking (not via AA, just willpower.) Are my friends superhuman? Or is there something going on with the stats here? Another thing that probably makes AA's stats look awful is the way that courts order unwilling drunk drivers to attend. I can't see how that would do any good at all, since the program is designed for those who have decided to quit of their own accord. There's also the problem of relapses. If a person is drunk 5 years, sober 15 years, drunk 5 years, sober 1 year, drunk 1 year, sober 30 years, drunk 5 years then dead did the program work or fail? There were more sober years than drunk, but the drink got them in the end. Cancer survival stats all seem to go on 5-year survival rates, not whether the cancer gets them in the end 15 years later.
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Jan 2, 2016 16:56
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Pohl posted:It is more that AA is full of people that are predators, and even if they stop using, they are still predators. Women new to the program are vulnerable as hell, obviously, and you have these guys that are veterans at taking advantage of them. It is a rather sickening thing when you get into it and witness it. It is so bad, the veteran women of AA basically surround the new women and won't let a man near her. The veterans know, and do their best to shield the new women, but it doesn't always work. I agree with you and its awful..
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Jan 2, 2016 21:00
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