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Howdy fellow goons and goonettes! I'd like to start an ask thread about Alcoholic Anonymous, and if you have any questions I'd love to answer them for you. But before we get started let's talk about what AA is and what AA isn't.aa.org posted:Alcoholics Anonymous is an international fellowship of men and women who have had a drinking problem. It is nonprofessional, self-supporting, multiracial, apolitical, and available almost everywhere. There are no age or education requirements. Membership is open to anyone who wants to do something about his or her drinking problem. About myself: I'm an AA regular with 9 months of sobriety as of 11/23/2015. I started going to AA as part of a mandatory condition of my treatment. I stopped going after treatment concluded because I disliked the meetings, and thought they weren't helping with my sobriety. I (somehow) stayed sober for the 5 months I wasn't required to go, but a friend I had made while sober recommended a good meeting to go to, and I still go to that meeting( and a couple more every week) to see a lot of the people I've become friends with. Before we open this discussion I compiled a FAQ that I think would be beneficial for you to read, as I feel it addresses a lot of caveats I've encountered: The mention of God really bothers me, because I am an atheist/agnostic/follower of the fly spaghetti monster. Thats perfectly fine, and although a lot of the opening and closing prayers mention God in them you don't have to say anything when that prayer is said. In fact a very good friend said in a meeting:"My belief in God may vary wildly from what you believe in, and if my God isn't something you want, then that's fine." The important thing to note here is that however you choose to believe is not a factor of AA, but your own belief in how you practice sobriety. If you don't want the religion, that's fine. No one is there to convert you to their religion. I am a Deist if that helps any. I went to a meeting once, and the people were rude or jerks to me I am sorry that happened. I really am, it always bums me out to hear about a bad experience at a meeting. I've definitely had my fair share of terrible meetings in the past. Please don't let this deter you from trying another one(I'll touch on that further down this OP). I have a family member/friend/spouse who I believe needs to get clean or sober AND/OR I have had experience living with an alcoholic: It's a wide spread belief that you can't force anyone to get sober, they will naturally find it when they are ready. However if you feel that you would like to talk about your experiences in dealing with alcoholism close to you Al Anon is right up your alley. Every AA meeting I've seen in TV/Movies is really depressing The real ones aren't. Maybe some exist that are like that, but for the most part AA is a celebration of sobriety. The coffee is terrible Yes it is. Before I get down to the nitty-gritty, lets look at the twelve steps! aa.org posted:1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. There they are. Believe it or not a lot of those are pretty openly phrased. It's for a reason! Sponsors It's recommended when you begin your journey to sobriety that you have a sponsor. There are bad sponsors, we all know it. Some suck, and some a great. Here's what to look for: 1. Someone who is in at least their 2-3rd year of sobriety 2. Someone who doesn't act like they are in year 1 of sobriety 3. Someone you can relate to 4. Someone you share common interests with 5 (If anyone has any recommendations I'll add them here) Literature of AA: The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous Living Sober As Bill Sees It Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions Many others Where to find meetings: Sober alcoholics are everywhere! Seriously, a quick Google search of AA meetings in your area will give you a nice list of "Where & When". I'd encourage you to try a few meetings, meet some people and get recommendations for some other good ones! Narcotics Anonymous: I have limited understanding of how these meetings work, being that I've only gone to a few, but anyone can let me know about it and hopefully we can talk about that here too! Goony friends of Bill W.! Frank Viola - Sober since 2/23/2015 So ask away! Lets get some AA talking going on!
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Dec 7, 2015 22:02
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Reserved for future use maybe NA and Al Anon if it's needed.
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Dec 7, 2015 22:03
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Congrats on your sobriety! As I child I lived with my father, who was an alcoholic and he always mentions my mom and I leaving him as the "rock bottom" sign that he had to get his poo poo straight. Did most of the meeting's attendees share that same sentiment of a "rock bottom" convincing them to go into treatment? Or were most mandatory participants?
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Dec 8, 2015 00:25
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I once heard somewhere that the success rate (i.e. people successfully living soberly for a prolonged time) of AA is almost the same as for those who don't do anything special. Is there any truth to this statement?
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Dec 8, 2015 01:18
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How are you supposed to be an atheist at AA when 7 of the 12 steps invoke God and a couple of them have you effectively going through the born again process? It doesn't seem like there's any way to reconcile "I don't believe in a higher power of any kind" with acknowledging one, asking it for forgiveness and praying to it regularly.
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Dec 8, 2015 01:18
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Tahm Bwady posted:Congrats on your sobriety! As I child I lived with my father, who was an alcoholic and he always mentions my mom and I leaving him as the "rock bottom" sign that he had to get his poo poo straight. Did most of the meeting's attendees share that same sentiment of a "rock bottom" convincing them to go into treatment? Or were most mandatory participants? A lot of the people there come in after what's called a white light moment. That moment is figuratively when you hit "rock bottom". Mine was waking up in a jail mental health unit with a felony charge. But I'd say about 90% have a rock bottom moment. Honj Steak posted:I once heard somewhere that the success rate (i.e. people successfully living soberly for a prolonged time) of AA is almost the same as for those who don't do anything special. Is there any truth to this statement? I believe it. I stayed sober for months without AA.. That's probably a viable way to go. Some need AA others don't. Modulo16 fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 8, 2015 |
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Dec 8, 2015 04:25
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tallkidwithglasses posted:How are you supposed to be an atheist at AA when 7 of the 12 steps invoke God and a couple of them have you effectively going through the born again process? It doesn't seem like there's any way to reconcile "I don't believe in a higher power of any kind" with acknowledging one, asking it for forgiveness and praying to it regularly. The answer to that question is: I don't know.. I'll ask an atheist at a meeting tomorrow and get you an answer.
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Dec 8, 2015 04:27
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tallkidwithglasses posted:How are you supposed to be an atheist at AA when 7 of the 12 steps invoke God and a couple of them have you effectively going through the born again process? It doesn't seem like there's any way to reconcile "I don't believe in a higher power of any kind" with acknowledging one, asking it for forgiveness and praying to it regularly. Short answer: It takes work. It takes a good group, skewing younger, that won't just mentally shut you out as "he's not ready yet", and then you essentially accept Reality as your higher power. You'll improvise, as you can't really pray to reality, but you CAN sit and reflect on your specific shortcomings and make plans on ways to overcome them. Overall AA (should be) is about recognizing that you can't fix an addiction alone, and while "I'm not alone, I'm doing this with God" might sound silly, if they honestly believe it, it's not. Plus they're also going to meetings with real people, their sponsor is a real person; AA is a community, not, like, a method of prayer. If it's too much work to find the right meeting or to adapt the steps to your beliefs, there are several "secular recovery" groups out there, but good luck finding one not formed specifically to take money from addicts that "don't wanna be preached at, man".
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Dec 8, 2015 04:28
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Quad posted:Short answer: It takes work. I also really like this answer.
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Dec 8, 2015 04:36
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Alcoholics Anonymous: The Cesar Milan of addiction treatment
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Dec 8, 2015 06:31
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slap me silly posted:Alcoholics Anonymous: The Cesar Milan of addiction treatment Would you mind telling me why you make this comparison? I don't know who Cesar Milan is. But I don't believe that AA should be the only treatment for addiction, and I don't know of anybody who only went to AA to get clean and sober. A lot of us did outpatient and I received mental health services as well.
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Dec 8, 2015 14:45
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I've always been curious, how can a court force you to attend AA if AA has these religious aspects? Not to diss AA, if it works for someone then good for them, but legalistically I'm confused how a court can order somebody to attend a specifically religious group. Or am I mistaken and courts don't force people to? I've heard it happens, and you sort of imply it in your OP too. Congrats on your sobriety btw 
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Dec 8, 2015 17:31
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alnilam posted:I've always been curious, how can a court force you to attend AA if AA has these religious aspects? Not to diss AA, if it works for someone then good for them, but legalistically I'm confused how a court can order somebody to attend a specifically religious group. I believe it's because they don't actually "force" you so much as they tell you "do it or go to jail." It's not much of a choice, but apparently it's enough to avoid breaking the law.
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Dec 8, 2015 17:35
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Frank Viola posted:Would you mind telling me why you make this comparison? I don't know who Cesar Milan is. But I don't believe that AA should be the only treatment for addiction, and I don't know of anybody who only went to AA to get clean and sober. A lot of us did outpatient and I received mental health services as well. I think what slap me silly is referring to is a lot of the criticism that AA is not based at all in modern medicine; that it is essentially "Woo" or a cult. A couple of articles about it: This one from the Atlantic is probably your best bet. The Independent goes a little more into the cultish aspects of AA.
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Dec 8, 2015 17:52
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Have you read Infinite Jest, and, if so, how accurate would you say David Foster Wallace's portrayal of AA is?
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Dec 8, 2015 18:44
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Do you ever have a week go by without any snowflakes insisting that there is no God? It seems to me that it would get tiring. This is a serious question. My perception of AA is what I hear from other people.
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Dec 8, 2015 20:22
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Thanatosian posted:I think what slap me silly is referring to is a lot of the criticism that AA is not based at all in modern medicine; that it is essentially "Woo" or a cult. I'll read these both and get back to you on it. CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Do you ever have a week go by without any snowflakes insisting that there is no God? It's usually once a meeting. Not really tiring, it is to some but I've definitely had my fair share of eye rolls when someone acts pious and emphasizes the existence of God in a dramatic way. Those people are much more tiring. Not a Children posted:Have you read Infinite Jest, and, if so, how accurate would you say David Foster Wallace's portrayal of AA is? I have not. alnilam posted:I've always been curious, how can a court force you to attend AA if AA has these religious aspects? Not to diss AA, if it works for someone then good for them, but legalistically I'm confused how a court can order somebody to attend a specifically religious group. I don't think I'd force anyone to go, and a lot of the time I've seen it only for a certain number of times. I can't speak for anyone else but I believe they do that to show how alcohol can hurt more than just the person drinking. Thank you kindly.
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Dec 8, 2015 22:37
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Congratulations on your sobriety, I know it can be debilitating and have a major effect on ones life. Why do you feel that AA has worked for you? Do you feel that you could have had success through other means, such as rehab, cold turkey, etc...?
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Dec 8, 2015 23:01
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Magugu posted:Congratulations on your sobriety, I know it can be debilitating and have a major effect on ones life. I believe that AA has helped me to leave behind activities and people that were detrimental to my sobriety, I had no problems staying sober in without AA. However, it got really lonely really fast when calls stopped coming in from people I used to drink and do drugs with, and the meetings helped introduce me to sober people who I could do sober activities with. Rehab is a mixed bag. I felt that half wanted sobriety, and the other half just had some other obligation to court/family/etc, and couldn't wait to finish so that they could be back into what they were doing previously. I think in short is that it's entirely dependent on the person. If that person wants to get sober, then they will get sober. If they like what AA has to offer, then great! If not, then that's perfectly fine too. I don't think that person will fail if they don't attend AA, and I really dislike anyone who says otherwise.
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Dec 8, 2015 23:31
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How easy would it be to attend court mandated AA whilst drinking regularly? Is it truely anonymous?
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Dec 9, 2015 03:52
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AA helped me get over a drinking problem by making me so afraid of every having to go back to an AA meeting that I can't remember the last time I've had more than two drinks in a week. Any time I feel like it might be fun to get drunk all I have to do is think about grimacing through another recitation of the steps/traditions to make the impulse vanish. No brief reprieve from anxiety and depression is worth another night of bad coffee jokes and depressing war stories.
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Dec 9, 2015 04:13
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rock rock posted:How easy would it be to attend court mandated AA whilst drinking regularly? You can show up to every meeting drunk if you wanted. Only you are allowed to announce your association with AA. If someone else does, they hosed up.
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Dec 9, 2015 12:35
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The_Angry_Turtle posted:AA helped me get over a drinking problem by making me so afraid of every having to go back to an AA meeting that I can't remember the last time I've had more than two drinks in a week. Any time I feel like it might be fun to get drunk all I have to do is think about grimacing through another recitation of the steps/traditions to make the impulse vanish. No brief reprieve from anxiety and depression is worth another night of bad coffee jokes and depressing war stories. Sounds like AA worked for you!
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Dec 9, 2015 12:36
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Why do you think AA refused to publish any data on their success rate? Is medication based treatment (antabuse, antidepressants, etc.) encouraged or is it a taboo of sorts?
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Dec 9, 2015 19:50
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grapecritic posted:Why do you think AA refused to publish any data on their success rate? Is medication based treatment (antabuse, antidepressants, etc.) encouraged or is it a taboo of sorts? Members of AA don't give treatment advice when it comes to medications or treatments outside of AA. They are not licensed therapists. AA probably refused to publish success rates because of the anonymity aspect of AA. Also I don't think there is anything to quantify because people can lie about time sober.
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Dec 9, 2015 21:17
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Frank Viola posted:Would you mind telling me why you make this comparison? I don't know who Cesar Milan is. But I don't believe that AA should be the only treatment for addiction, and I don't know of anybody who only went to AA to get clean and sober. A lot of us did outpatient and I received mental health services as well. Sure, yeah. Thanatosian pretty much nailed it with that first link. The more that medical and psychological science have learned about addiction, the more obvious it has become that AA is badly un-scientific. To me it smells a lot like Cesar Millan's dog training approach in that it's based on folklore and beatings, which is why I mentioned him. Maybe it kind of works (hard to tell) but the psychological price is high.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:07
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I've known some people who were court ordered to attend AA (mostly from DUI/DWI convictions / plea). Evidently the court requires you to keep a log of your attendance which is supposed to be substantiated by the signature of someone attending that class. But Alcoholics Anonymous... So they attend no meetings and have the guys at the bar sign the attendance sheets. And because its all supposedly anonymous the counter to the "Well I didn't see you at that meeting" is simply "Well I didn't see you either". I've heard this from multiple people but have fortunately never been forced to / had the need for AA. Is it true what they tell me?
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Dec 10, 2015 02:06
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PromethiumX posted:I've known some people who were court ordered to attend AA (mostly from DUI/DWI convictions / plea). Evidently the court requires you to keep a log of your attendance which is supposed to be substantiated by the signature of someone attending that class. I used to sign my own mandatory meeting slips all the time.. They can't exactly call can they?
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Dec 10, 2015 04:58
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Do you think that AA's disease theory of alcoholism has the possibility of encouraging a lack of personal responsibility and willpower? I would think it would be quite easy for some individuals to take the "I'm sick, not my fault, nothing I can do about it" route and lose control completely.
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Dec 10, 2015 22:22
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Soylent Yellow posted:Do you think that AA's disease theory of alcoholism has the possibility of encouraging a lack of personal responsibility and willpower? I would think it would be quite easy for some individuals to take the "I'm sick, not my fault, nothing I can do about it" route and lose control completely. It's more meant to acknowledge that those of us that are alcoholics will (unless somehow prevented) die as a result of our drinking. We will continue to drink until an event occurs that either stops us from being able to drink (jail, hospital, rehab, choosing to get sober), or we die. The point of calling it a disease is to more elaborate to members that alcohol will kill you if you are an alcoholic. They use disease maybe to make it more EXTREME. I've seen a lot of people use: "Welp Im an alcoholic,not my fault guess I'll drink more because what's the use?". I feel badly for them, and I've luckily met a lot more that never drank again.
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Dec 10, 2015 22:36
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Frank Viola posted:It's more meant to acknowledge that those of us that are alcoholics will (unless somehow prevented) die as a result of our drinking. We will continue to drink until an event occurs that either stops us from being able to drink (jail, hospital, rehab, choosing to get sober), or we die. This is a religious belief, not a fact about addiction, and it is one of the main things that causes me and others to have a problem with AA.
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Dec 10, 2015 22:55
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Actually addiction is now classified as a disease in the medical field, as a result of studies of the brains of addicts versus non-addicts. HOWEVER, while an addict is not at fault for being an addict, they ARE responsible for managing their disease. They are not at fault for thinking of a drug of choice constantly, but they do still have a choice as to whether or not they choose to use or attempt to get help with the disease. After all, nobody really wants to become an addict or alcoholic ( which is also a drug ).
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Dec 10, 2015 23:10
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slap me silly posted:This is a religious belief, not a fact about addiction, and it is one of the main things that causes me and others to have a problem with AA. I've never really noticed it but yes.. That is a religious belief.
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Dec 11, 2015 03:25
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Frank Viola posted:It's usually once a meeting. Not really tiring, it is to some but I've definitely had my fair share of eye rolls when someone acts pious and emphasizes the existence of God in a dramatic way. Those people are much more tiring. A fair answer, and a fair point. Frank Viola posted:It's more meant to acknowledge that those of us that are alcoholics will (unless somehow prevented) die as a result of our drinking. We will continue to drink until an event occurs that either stops us from being able to drink (jail, hospital, rehab, choosing to get sober), or we die. slap me silly posted:This is a religious belief, not a fact about addiction, and it is one of the main things that causes me and others to have a problem with AA. Uh, how is that a religious belief, exactly? What makes that religious? I'm not making the connection. Isn't it a fact that one is, as much as is possible, in control of one's own life?
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Dec 11, 2015 03:40
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One major side effect of 12 step programs is major cognitive dissonance over how much control you have over your life.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:22
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tallkidwithglasses posted:How are you supposed to be an atheist at AA when 7 of the 12 steps invoke God and a couple of them have you effectively going through the born again process? It doesn't seem like there's any way to reconcile "I don't believe in a higher power of any kind" with acknowledging one, asking it for forgiveness and praying to it regularly. The higher power thing can be "God's in the drivers seat", I'll just pray it all away, magic beans, etc. But it can be less "blood of Christ", just knowing that whatever didn't get done at work today might get done tomorrow, that your buddy will understand you forgot, that you'll put the order in for the tires and a few more days won't kill anybody... as Elsa says, just let it go. It doesn't have to be (IMHO) religious, per se. If all that poo poo is on your shoulders, you'll go back to drinking. If you can release some of it to a higher power (be it God, "the universe", whatever), you can focus on living.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:34
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Tar_Squid posted:Actually addiction is now classified as a disease in the medical field, as a result of studies of the brains of addicts versus non-addicts. If it is a disease, it should be treated by a doctor, then.
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Dec 11, 2015 10:43
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The Bible posted:If it is a disease, it should be treated by a doctor, then. I received out outpatient treatment for 10 months. I think there's a line where being treated by a doctor begins and ends.
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Dec 11, 2015 13:46
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Uh, how is that a religious belief, exactly? What makes that religious? I'm not making the connection. Isn't it a fact that one is, as much as is possible, in control of one's own life? Maybe religious wasn't the best word. What I mean is, it's not a rational statement and it's not supported by any science, yet AA sells this idea constantly. And it is kind of a consequence of the 12 step framework, which has an explicit and fundamental religious orientation despite that people will say "you don't have to be religious, it's just what it means to you!" Scientifically speaking, I think probably a big benefit of AA is the social support, and that's nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately it seems to be irretrievably mixed up with the religious guilt thing.
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Dec 11, 2015 18:22
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AA has helped me and it has hurt me. The camaraderie was great when I really wanted to be sober, but then I started to get a lot of pressure. Like, a lot of pressure from the regulars. They wanted me to work the program, when I just wanted to show up and hang out somewhere safe. I was doing the work with my outpatient group and my counselors, I didn't feel like I needed or wanted to do the AA work, too. Also, I don't think I ever left an AA meeting where I didn't want to drink more than when I went in. No matter how long I was sober, every AA meeting made me want to sit down with some people and discuss the whole thing over a pint. That didn't seem like a healthy outcome. That doesn't even begin to address how much crazy sex and emotional / relationship bullshit is going on within the group. Every group I've been in has been like that, except for the ones that met in little churches and everyone had been sober for 20 years and was 20 years older than me. AA gets past the religious bullshit because it is not described as religious, it is spiritual. You want your God of choice to be a ping pong ball? A ping pong ball it is. Nature, in all of it's glory? There you go. The biggest flaw I found was like I mentioned, you have a bunch of broken people using and abusing each other for sex and relationships... often trading partners on a monthly basis and it is just horrible. I wasn't immune to that either, I was a broken person and there is something very enticing about hooking up with other broken people that are on your level, no matter how toxic it is. It didn't make me feel especially good about myself. God forbid I met someone I really liked and any real relationship was a complete no go, then I have to deal with that emotional pain, too. I could shop around for meetings all day, but the dynamics always seemed to come back those things. There were also a lot of cliques within any fair sized group, and the infighting would just become intolerable. All the while everyone was hugging everyone else and declaring how much they loved one another. Edit: Oh, the majority decision seemed to be I didn't need bipolar medication or counseling, I just needed to work the program and I'd be fine. Drugs are drugs, and we don't do drugs in AA.  Edit 2: Anyone that hasn't experienced addiction is described as a Normie. They haven't really experienced life to its fullest, and they can't understand you. Normies are people that live normal boring lives, and they haven't really lived. Amazingly, the talk turned to Normies a lot, and how much deeper and spiritual an AA person was than said Normie. It turned my stomach. I don't know how many times I was downtown, sober, when I ran into a regular that espoused this view, and they were drunk as a skunk. Then, they would turn up at the next meeting and claim so many years of sobriety like I hadn't just loving seen them hosed up the night before. Pohl fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 22:31
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