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inklesspen, was your response really "well, Leperflesh was a meany first?" You were inexplicably cagey about the other committee members. You opened a thread but you've been hostile to any sort of commentary from people you don't like. I'm not trying to troll you or call you out or anything; I just want you to know how you're coming across. This is like, D-level trolling compared to what you're going to get from the internet if you run an awards circuit. Zurui fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 05:49
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Zurui, I don't think that was Inklesspen's intent. I think it's more that the two of them have known each other for a long while and are okay with teasing each other while they argue over things. Neither is being mean, they're both just kind of ribbing each other (while also expressing disagreement). That doesn't necessarily come across to someone else, so I get your confusion, but I don't think either of them is actually being a douchebag.
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Sep 26, 2016 07:54
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Yeah I'm not offended guys, that's fine. I am bemused, though. Knowing in advance that this undertaking is bound to be a target for drama and controversy, why would you start off from the outset by being intentionally opaque and secretive? Maybe just inexperience, which I'm sympathetic to, so I'm trying to sort of goad you into aiming the gun a little farther from your figurative foot. I'll be explicit, instead; be scrupulously transparent about absolutely everything, to a fault. Be relentlessly polite, even in response to impoliteness. Anticipate the liklihood of accusations of bias, and head them off by constantly documenting the unbiased process you're following. You will never completely avoid the drama, but you can at least not paint obvious targets on your back. Step one is to do your organizing in a transparent way. I realize IRC is way more convenient, but it's also basicially indistinguishable from a smokey back room. e. Also, recognize that you can't really get away with "this is my thing because I'm the one stepping up and making the effort" while also claiming the imprimatur of the SA TG community. If this is the award given by our community, then it cannot also belong to a self-appointed volunteer dictator. I'm certain you'll be rewarded by showing leadership while also not acting as though you get to have final say, even if that approach is much more difficult to manage. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 08:01
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Wow, maelstrom is right. Going one further than what Leperflesh said, since this is supposed to be highlighting the best with our excellent critical eyes, catching things that those other awards don't et cetera, it should probably likewise be a model award process. A good starting point would be that the judges should have played the games in question, and if they request stuff for free for review, they are obligated to actually, you know, use it.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:01
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homullus posted:Wow, maelstrom is right. Again there are no judges, this is gonna be a popular vote Hugo sorta thing.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:32
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Leperflesh posted:Yeah I'm not offended guys, that's fine. Also this is not for a million dollar prize. Lives do not hang in the balance here. There is no physical prize, at least as tar as I know. It is just a thing. If you could ratchet back the hostility, even if it is for our own good, that would probably go a long way to averting the drama. You could even offer to help, or offer helpful suggestions of some kind. You are good at organizing things, you have run the TGSS reliably every year, how about bringing some of that to bear rather than trying to heckle the project to death, which is the course you seem to have chosen.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:38
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Winson_Paine posted:Again there are no judges, this is gonna be a popular vote Hugo sorta thing. Even better! In terms of how I would use such a thing (independent of voting), I do value awards websites that make it easy to see what games have won, and what games were nominated. I have often found myself exploring new corners of traditional games (Euro games, war games, et cetera) and have been frustrated with the navigation of awards websites in my quest to find out what people have thought was "good." I don't know how to make good awards websites, only how to complain about bad ones.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:47
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homullus posted:Even better! I think the main things at this point, unless I am mistaken, like the two major obstacles are: - Some means of nominations/voting that leaves the result reasonably certain of "one goon, one vote" without requiring PMs or some weird nonsense. - A list of topics/categories. I think Minis and Board Games should be included (other stuff? are there enough CCGs around to warrant such a thing anymore?) and think the categories could probably be pretty similar. Maybe have a Best in Show/GOTY for overall. To a degree, it is gonna be a popularity contest. It is an award thing, that is pretty much what they are.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:59
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My categories would be: Board game for hobbyists Board game for non-hobbyists Board game expansion War game RPG (big) RPG (small) RPG expansion GOTY That's all.
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Sep 26, 2016 20:05
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homullus posted:Board game for hobbyists What would the split there be? It is an interesting distinction and I know what you mean I just dont know how like I would quantify that.
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Sep 26, 2016 20:07
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Winson_Paine posted:What would the split there be? It is an interesting distinction and I know what you mean I just dont know how like I would quantify that. I was channeling the difference between the Spiel des Jahres and the Kennerspiel. The non-hobbyist ones would be things like Codenames or Patchwork -- not just party games. Edit: In terms of strict criteria . . . I don't think you can. You probably knew what I meant by "big" and "small" RPGs, but that would also necessarily be in the box labeled "I know it when I see it." An example of a rule of thumb might be "can you explain the game in less than 12 minutes?" homullus fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 20:14
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homullus posted:I was channeling the difference between the Spiel des Jahres and the Kennerspiel. The non-hobbyist ones would be things like Codenames or Patchwork -- not just party games. That makes sense. I think keeping the catagories limited the first time around makes a lot of sense too; maybe 3-5 per broad grouping (RPGs, Board Games, Minis, Whatever) and if it goes well next year things can expand?
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Sep 26, 2016 20:50
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Winson_Paine posted:That makes sense.
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Sep 26, 2016 21:00
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Winson_Paine posted:I think the main things at this point, unless I am mistaken, like the two major obstacles are: I'm working on the first thing here. The second thing is already in the doc I linked, but I'll summarize it here: quote:RPGs The RPGs division also has some things like "Best Licensed Game" "Best Free Game" and "Best Budget Game", etc, which are based on filtering the Best Game nominees to ones that meet these criteria. Please see the document for a fuller explanation of my proposal. If you have suggestions for changing these categories, now's the best time to bring them up.
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Sep 26, 2016 22:28
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In regards to the specification document (0.0.2), it appears decent upon first glance except for a few issues I've made note of below. Administrators My preference would be for less perpetuity of position, fewer "core" administrators, and more democracy in the creation of temporary administrators. Life happens sometimes, and someone who was an administrator one year might not want or be able to do the same the next. I envision the "core" administrators having longer terms to provide stability for the awards, and self-nomination followed by some form of popular vote for temporary/annual administrators. Obviously, with things sort of already set up in terms of initial administrators, I understand being reluctant to change this for the inaugural awards. Additionally, there is something to be said for the expediency of voting for temporary administrators being closed to the core group. At the very least, though, I recommend a process for the replacement of an administrator to be specified. Eligibility Window Since there are no rules specified for the frequency of nomination periods, there's currently the possibility for eligibility gaps to occur where works never become eligible for nomination. Eligible Works There's ambiguity in the level of disqualification of works promoted by attempts to subvert, compromise, or interfere with the integrity of the awards (i.e. categorical versus complete disqualification). Eligible Voters If nomination periods are going to be announced prior to their opening, the minimum duration between announcement and opening should be specified somewhere. Categories I am disappointed by the currently nominated categories' lack of inclusivity for the full spectrum of traditional games. They seem to be lopsided in focus and don't include miniature wargaming at all. Additionally, starting out small (in total number of categories) and expanding from there seems like an option to consider. Even though I'm not well-versed in all aspects of the hobby, I can try to come up with a suggested set of categories, but I need to think about it a little bit. Everything else looks fine. ______________________________________ Winson_Paine posted:You could even offer to help, or offer helpful suggestions of some kind. They did. Leperflesh posted:I formally volunteer to help write unambiguous category definitions for all categories, and then act as a judge for resolving category questions and disputes. I think there should be a panel of three such judges, to enable a brief debate and conclusive vote for such questions as they arise.
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Sep 26, 2016 23:33
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I dunno how feasible/desirable it would be, but one thought I just had is to have something like the Retro Hugos. These would be Crits for games that came out a long time ago. For RPGs, it's pretty easy. Go back 40 years, and you're pretty much in the dawn of time. Have the first one award for 1974-1976, and then sync years afterwards. But board games go back a lot further, as do historical wargames, so I don't know if this is a good idea or not.
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Sep 27, 2016 01:19
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Leperflesh posted:I formally volunteer to help write unambiguous category definitions for all categories, and then act as a judge for resolving category questions and disputes. I think there should be a panel of three such judges, to enable a brief debate and conclusive vote for such questions as they arise. Missed this on my phone, this is a really good idea. I like the idea of very concrete catagories at least for nominations, and having different judges for determining catagories would be a good idea in the sense that like, the board game judges might be nominally familiar with board gaming and so on.
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Sep 27, 2016 01:56
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Also it is occurring to me I am probs not gonna have time to help admin this, I am gonna step down although to be fair I am not sure what admins do yet
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Sep 27, 2016 01:58
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I'll have to take a closer look when I'm not about to collapse, but I just wanted to get my quick reactionary nonsense in. Whatever you do, let's not have a diminutive name for the awards, at least not officially. Something like the "Hitties" or whatever is just too cute by half. I mean, what does the Ennie mean? The Erik... Noah... Nie? No. Let's not do that. For the love of god, Montresor. My unjustified gut response is over now, you can continue normally.
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Sep 27, 2016 03:21
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People I respect are telling me I should invite Leperflesh to join the committee, that he is good at organizing things. But I just can't do that. I can't work with the guy whose first response was "Let me be the first to heap abuse upon you", even if he thinks it was satire. So instead I will step down. I hope the procedures document I already wrote will be of value to anyone who tries to organize these awards. I believe I have a good plan for how to do the "one poster, one vote", which I shall elaborate upon if people are interested in hearing it, and I'd still be willing to write the web interface for it if it's wanted. inklesspen fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 04:29
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In case anyone is wondering I too am stepping down.
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Sep 27, 2016 04:39
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this thread gets a 5
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Sep 27, 2016 04:45
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This has to be a record for goon projects
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Sep 27, 2016 04:48
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It seems like a good idea, just with the wrong leader. Would Leperflesh or someone else be willing to step up?
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Sep 27, 2016 05:59
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I don't have desire to be involved with this, but if you guys don't put aside all the sexy bits like categories and judges, and address structural issues first, you aren't going to get anywhere. If the award is going to have any sort of longevity, you will need a supporting apparatus. I would recommend setting it up like a nonprofit, and that means worrying about all sorts of boring things like:
Here's what you should do. Come up with a list of people who are interested in being on a steering committee to sort through all of these logistical issues. Deal with them in a public fashion, and then present the 'charter' of the award to the forum while holding an election of people to run the first year of the award. Further reading: http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/pgt/nfpinc/Not_for_Profit_Incorporators_Handbook_EN.html
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Sep 27, 2016 06:30
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On the one hand I sincerely hope I didn't kill this thing single-handedly. Seriously. On the other hand, if criticism or even unfair shitposting by one goon was enough to kill it, it was doomed from the start. That said the idea has merit and I hope it moves forward. I cannot run it or take a lead role, though; I have too many other commitments, TGSS being a major one. Also I'm stuck in hellish jury duty selection for a 6+ week murder trial this week so I'm not even able to give my lethal shitposting the attention and time it deserves.
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Sep 27, 2016 07:22
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Goons ruin everything.
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Sep 27, 2016 12:19
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Leperflesh posted:On the one hand I sincerely hope I didn't kill this thing single-handedly. Seriously. Aye, what it really needs is at least one invested person who is good at being a project manager, can get others to help, and has the time to do so. It is gonna take at least a reasonable time/effort commit, which I have not got currently. THe good news is I think once it gets set up/established it will more or less run itself almost, but someone or someones are gonna have to make that initial investment of effort.
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Sep 27, 2016 14:41
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Here's a smaller idea; a goon TG wiki and a top 10 yearly games as voted in a poll, as ADTRW does it.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:43
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Krunge posted:a goon TG wiki There's this: http://tradwiki.foxxtrot.net/index.php/Main_Page
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Sep 29, 2016 08:48
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Arivia posted:Goons ruin everything. can we rename this to the Goons Ruin Everything Memorial Golden Grogs e: also i could hypothetically organize or at least help out i guess if this is still a thing because hahaha what the gently caress else am i going to do with my time but idk if i'm the best person to do it Ningyou fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 20:39
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doooooooo itttttt (make a new thread)
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Sep 29, 2016 20:49
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inklesspen posted:This is a good question and I would like to see more discussion about this point. Is it worthwhile to explicitly recognize games based on licensed properties? Absolutely. Creativity shine through For example: Mad Lands was published in GURPS, Scenic Dunsmouth was published in Lamentations of the Flame Princess, there are breakthrough books in Pathfinder, etc.
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Sep 30, 2016 01:07
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Winson_Paine posted:This has to be a record for goon projects Sadly it probably isn't
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Sep 30, 2016 01:27
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I really like just flipping it over to a top ten and then running with it. It should also be a stated goal that the Critical Hit List is intended to recognize (among other things) forward, positive influences in gaming. Ie: no shitbirds allowed
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Sep 30, 2016 02:02
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Now the award name fits anyway.
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Sep 30, 2016 18:26
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