[Asia/Oceania] Forget About Chips - China Is Coming for Ships

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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)

Spergin Morlock: Aug 8, 2009; Fun Shoe

would it be like a 100yr lease kind of thing where descendents have an option to renew it?

# ? Apr 27, 2024 06:58

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 16:10

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013

Raskolnikov38 posted:

well that�s not right because that�s not how land �ownership� works in China

How do 'nail houses' occur given this? It must still be a pretty well protected right if an eminent domain equivalent can't even force a sale to the state.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 07:16

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

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I'm assuming, as it is an apartment, it's not freehold and means you may have to pay maintainence for the building/ground rent?

I'm not sure how these things work in China.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 07:24

RandolphCarter: Jul 30, 2005

fart simpson posted:

no you�re misreading. they�re saying you can purchase an apartment straight up in hegang for $3,000. as in, you pay $3,000 once and you own it forever

good lord china please win already.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 07:31

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Spergin Morlock posted:

would it be like a 100yr lease kind of thing where descendents have an option to renew it?

iirc it's 70 years

fake edit: https://jerrygrey2002.substack.com/p/living-in-communist-china-whats-it

quote:

I own my own apartment but I don�t own the land its on. My wife also owns an apartment but she doesn�t own the land it�s on either. We have 70-year leases which will last us until the end of our lives. So, effectively, we are living rent free in one of them and the other is sitting empty because it�s not an expensive apartment and there are plenty of rentals available so the market isn�t good, we might get 1200 RMB a month rental but we might also get a lot of headaches having a tenant in it.

So many people ask, why don�t you rent it out, and the answer is, it�s not worthwhile, there are no costs associated with keeping it empty � this is something I personally think should change � empty apartments should attract a property tax but, up to now, they don�t. We pay no rates, no property tax, the maintenance fees for the apartment are less than $100 a year � not a month, a year.

If we want to, when we get near the end of the 70-year lease (I�ll be 120 years old) we can extend it, as the people did who sold my apartment to me, 10 years ago, they extended it, it cost them 30,000 RMB, which is just over $4000 and got a new 70-year lease which I bought from them.

We don�t have children so, after we�re gone, the land will revert back to the country but the apartments on it will not. If the government wants to take them over, they must offer our estate the value at market price, if not, the estate can sell them and whoever my wife and I nominate as our beneficiaries will get the value, less the cost of re-registering the land use for a further 70 years..

# ? Apr 27, 2024 07:42

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

A new apartment gives you 70 years ownership, so an really old apartment from the 90s will have 40 more years of ownership, there is no properly tax. And old apartments don't have any maintenance fee. But its not an realistic example because almost all 90s residential buildings were built in city centers and their value have gone up 100x fold.

Also that 3000 USD apart in Hegang is a meme super cheap example because its in the extreme northern tip of China bordering Russia, and you are going to pay alot for winter heating and live like a loving hermit.

So the other example is much better, a 6400 USD apartment, 3 hr train ride from Beijing, is pretty livable if you are a youtuber ("Uploader") or can work from home. I check Linghai is pretty close to the Yellow sea, its basically the same climate zone as Beijing, you are getting a few snows in the winter, so like comparable weather to some rust belt old town in the northern part. And the apartment was likely built in the 00s, you still have 50 years of ownership left.

What will happen after the 70 year ownership run out? They probably will switch to a property tax model on the provincial level.

stephenthinkpad has issued a correction as of 08:29 on Apr 27, 2024

# ? Apr 27, 2024 08:10

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

Josef bugman posted:

I'm assuming, as it is an apartment, it's not freehold and means you may have to pay maintainence for the building/ground rent?

I'm not sure how these things work in China.

there will be building maintenance fees, utilities like gas and electric etc. that�s it. in my apartment in shenzhen that all comes out to like $30-50 a month combined

# ? Apr 27, 2024 08:20

Mandoric: Mar 15, 2003

Just for fun, if you want to compare decaying cities 3 hours by train out of the real big city, look up apartment prices in Troy or Schenectady, NY.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 08:31

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

extremely strange how cost of living becomes easily affordable once you take rent-seeking out of the equation

# ? Apr 27, 2024 09:38

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

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I'd prefer it if the housing was free of course, but it is nice to see that it's generally a lot easier to get things like housing.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 09:43

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

crepeface posted:

iirc it's 70 years

fake edit: https://jerrygrey2002.substack.com/p/living-in-communist-china-whats-it

I like the emphasis on "I don't own the land" about an apartment.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:17

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
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Kassad posted:

I like the emphasis on "I don't own the land" about an apartment.

landlords hate this trick

# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:18

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I mean that's how it is in the UK. Except not owning it means that you usually have to pay ground rent, or that it's much harder to sell if there is something like flammable cladding put on the building. Plus it isn't a cheap fee to renew and you generally need a mortgage to afford the flats on their own.

Don't buy a flat in the UK it is a pissing nightmare.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:27

Barry Foster: Dec 24, 2007; What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)

Josef bugman posted:

Don't ~~buy a flat~~ live in the UK it is a pissing nightmare.

Fixed that for ya bman (hope yer keeping well!)

# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:38

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

fart simpson posted:

that�s true. but you will be able to live there basically as long as you want without paying rent or a mortgage

BUT AT WHAT COST?

# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:55

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

Cerebral Bore posted:

extremely strange how cost of living becomes easily affordable once you take rent-seeking out of the equation

rent seeking is still there lol. Its just that infrastructure investment has suddenly made commuting to the city easier by several orders of magnitude.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:02

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
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speaking of infrastructure investment the shipping time of my packages from china to singapore went from 2 weeks to 3 days in a span of a decade

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:10

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

You just cut it down considerably by building out infrastructure and public housing.

The same thing is happening in Moscow. It used to be one of the relatively most expensive cities in terms of living. Rent prices almost froze during mid-late 2010s and haven't really risen because there is so much infrastructure and housing going up even though the city is still growing in terms of population.

The econ thread kind of didn't want to hear it but one of the reasons that housing if f'ed in the US isn't just rent seeking (it exists) but just the supply of new housing isn't there with demand especially regionally. NYC only has so far to expand even if you take infrastructure into account and a lot of the US isn't that different. It is why the long term trend will likely still be positive, it is simply life will become even more desperate over time since there is no where for people to go but to cheaper cities.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 11:25 on Apr 27, 2024

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:13

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

Pretty sure the doomsday econ thread mainly exists for miserable computer touchers to take a bit of joy out of how bad things are for the majority of people

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:24

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Regarde Aduck posted:

Pretty sure the doomsday econ thread mainly exists for miserable computer touchers to take a bit of joy out of how bad things are for the majority of people

It is kind of a shame because there is plenty going on that is interesting both in the US and globally, but the thread is pretty chaotic, jammed with "big" personalities.

The UK/London is having somewhat of similar issue. The Elizabeth line did extend the range of the London metro but the HSR 2 was suppose to link housing in the north to London and it has already been so butchered it is somewhat pointless. I wouldn't be surprised if rents only climbed upwards.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Philippines� Marcos Jnr has been rebranding himself as a human rights supporter. Is it working?

quote:

- Marcos Jnr�s pro-US stance and measures to �elevate� the Philippines have made him a �pivotal player� on South China Sea issues among world leaders

- Critics say Marcos Jnr�s rebranding efforts could lead to actual human rights movements losing support and legitimacy

Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos Jnr�s efforts at rehabilitating his family image and rebranding himself as more pro-human rights than his predecessor look to be paying off, after Time magazine included him in its list of 100 Most Influential People of 2024.

The magazine�s write-up said Marcos Jnr had �elevated the Philippines on the world stage� through a number of measures, including a more technocratic administration, steadying the economy and strengthening its alliance with the United States to counter China�s aggression in the South China Sea.

Cleve Arguelles, a political scientist and head of polling firm WR Numero, told This Week in Asia that Marcos Jnr�s inclusion was hardly surprising, noting the Philippine president�s positive reception from the international community since his election in 2022.

Arguelles said the recent trilateral summit between Marcos Jnr, US President Joe Biden and Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida � which focused on strengthening their defensive capabilities in the Indo-Pacific region amid Manila�s maritime disputes with China � had placed the Philippine president in the international spotlight.

�He�s seen as a very pivotal player on this issue about China, and that occupies a lot of mental space among world leaders,� Arguelles said.

Countries such as the US were encouraged to boost Marcos Jnr�s image on the international stage out of geopolitical convenience, he added.

�No one else in Southeast Asia is so pro-US now [than the Philippines]. That speaks to the US� insecurity in the area because they badly need a reliable ally in this part of the world because of China,� he said.

Marcos Jnr�s US-friendly stance is in stark contrast to former president Rodrigo Duterte, who realigned the country�s foreign policy towards China and stayed largely quiet about Beijing�s expansionism in the South China Sea.

The current president has also distanced himself from his predecessor�s controversial war on drugs, which rights activists say led to the extrajudicial killings of more than 12,000 Filipinos during Duterte�s administration, mostly among urban poor.

Following a drug bust on April 15 in which authorities confiscated 13.3 billion Philippine pesos� (US$231 million) worth of methamphetamines, locally known as shabu, Marcos Jnr said: �This is the biggest shipment of shabu that [we�ve ever] intercepted. But not one person died. Nobody died. No shots were fired. Nobody was hurt.�

Despite this, drug-related killings have persisted since Marcos Jnr took office. According to a study from the University of the Philippines, as of April 15, 621 deaths have been recorded since he took office, 42 per cent of which were committed by state agents during anti-illegal drug operations.

The notion that Marcos Jnr is more concerned about human rights than his predecessor has gained significant credibility after two staunch critics of the Duterte government gave more favourable opinions about the current leadership.

Former senator Leila De Lima was politically persecuted by Duterte and jailed for more than six years over trumped-up charges before being allowed to post bail in November. In February, she said the Marcos Jnr administration had provided �breathing room� from Duterte�s �authoritarian regime�.

�Under [Marcos Jnr], we are given the opportunity to make use of a democratic space in transition from the authoritarian regime that was Duterte�s,� De Lima said. �This is a breathing room from the seven years of nightmare that we thought was all over in 1986 and never to return again. But it did.�

Nobel Peace Prize laureate Maria Ressa, founder of independent news outlet Rappler, said there appeared to be a �lifting of fear� for journalists since Marcos Jnr took office.

�There�s been a lot of problems in the Philippines because fear spreads. But [press freedom] has improved � Is it perfect? Far from it. We still have a lot of work to do,� she said.

Ressa was acquitted of a final tax evasion charge in September. Press freedom advocates had decried the charge against Ressa as being politically motivated by Rappler�s critical coverage of Duterte�s administration and drug war.

However, Arguelles said there was danger in over-celebrating the �bare minimum� that the Marcos Jnr administration had achieved in terms of human rights.

�If the US and Western leaders are doing this out of geopolitical convenience, I think the danger is that [locally] we do this out of convenience because we want to get rid of the Dutertes. We end up legitimising the Marcoses. But we have to be reminded that they are not friends of democracy, human rights, and liberal values in the Philippines,� Arguelles warned.

Marcos Jnr has repeatedly refused to apologise for the well-documented human rights violations that occurred under his father�s 21-year martial law regime � including rampant corruption and the targeting of political opponents, student activists and journalists.

Critics say his presidential campaigned utilised misleading propaganda to rewrite that history in the minds of voters.

Athena Charanne Presto, a sociologist from the University of the Philippines, said Marcos Jnr�s new-found image as a human rights supporter could lead to legitimate human rights movements losing support and legitimacy.

�[Marcos Jnr�s] narrative during the election was that his family was a victim of history by people in power. Because you have that powerful narrative legitimised, others such as those in the impoverished sector, young people who feel they are voiceless in Philippine society, may find themselves relating to that. For martial law victims, it can be difficult to compete with perceived marginalised voices, like the Marcos family competing with their narratives,� she said.

Arguelles said Marcos Jnr�s efforts to rebrand himself could be about widening his support base, with his relationship with Duterte becoming increasingly antagonistic.

Duterte�s daughter, Vice-President Sara Duterte-Carpio, joined Marcos Jnr�s presidential campaign, uniting the supporters of both politically prominent families. In recent months, however, the president and his predecessor have been trading insults and accusations of drug use.

�[The Marcoses] know that they have to test new ideas, otherwise it�s going to be a problem for them. They know the Dutertes are a significant threat to them, and that they are kings and queens of using public opinion to their advantage,� Arguelles said.

However, Marcos Jnr�s attempts to revamp his image do not appear to be helping him win over the public. A Pulse Asia survey found his approval rating had declined from 68 per cent in December to 55 per cent in March.

Arguelles said the president must address domestic issues such as rising prices of goods, hunger and poverty, and jobs and economic opportunities to win back public favour.

�If you�re failing on the domestic side, I don�t think you can just use the international side to fill in that gap,� he said.

Meanwhile, Presto the sociologist said her work in youth politics showed young people remained critical of the president.

�[They are] saying things such as, �I will believe it when [Marcos Jnr] legalises divorce, when [he] legalises same-sex marriage,� she said.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:31

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

gradenko, does the media in the phillipines also do the thing where they put american reactions on a higher plane than local reactions?

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:34

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

prior to 2022, I predicted that the political terrain would be ripe for political demagoguery from the perspective of anti-China posturing, as a counterweight to Duterte's political demagoguery as a pro-China politician (and notwithstanding the media actively promoting Duterte's image as pro-China for their own ideological ends)

I did not guess that it was going to be Marcos himself that would take advantage of this, especially given that the media attempted to smear him as being pro-China himself, as an electioneering tactic, but apparently that is what is going to happen

the complete collapse of the liberal opposition in the Philippines means that in order to have a horse race, it's going to have to be between Marcos and Duterte, with the former to be regarded as a lesser-evil

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:36

ModernMajorGeneral: Jun 25, 2010

you really think the US and western leaders would do that? Just... celebrate someone's human rights record out of geopolitical convenience?

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:37

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Tankbuster posted:

gradenko, does the media in the phillipines also do the thing where they put american reactions on a higher plane than local reactions?

it's a bit cleverer than that - what usually happens is that American positions are laundered through local academics and pundits: you'll have someone commenting on the dangers of the "Chinese maritime militia swarming the West Philippine Sea" and he's a lecturer from a local university but he was educated in Virginia and he's reading off satellite photos releases by CSIS

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:45

Zohar: Jul 14, 2013; Good kitty

Ardennes posted:

It is kind of a shame because there is plenty going on that is interesting both in the US and globally, but the thread is pretty chaotic, jammed with "big" personalities.

The UK/London is having somewhat of similar issue. The Elizabeth line did extend the range of the London metro but the HSR 2 was suppose to link housing in the north to London and it has already been so butchered it is somewhat pointless. I wouldn't be surprised if rents only climbed upwards.

Was looking for a place to rent in london (lol) last year and the main effect of the Elizabeth line was just to push up prices in the suburbs it touches to near city centre levels afaict

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:50

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Zohar posted:

Was looking for a place to rent in london (lol) last year and the main effect of the Elizabeth line was just to push up prices in the suburbs it touches to near city centre levels afaict

That is pretty much what happens when you just build a single piece of infrastructure when London probably needs 3-4 of them at least to try to make a serious dent. The UK is unbalanced in a large part due to its infrastructure and punishing rail rates.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:58

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

They should award Boing boing Marcos a Nobel Peace Prize.

# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:59

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 16:10

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Barry Foster posted:

Fixed that for ya bman (hope yer keeping well!)

Trying to cope as always, but going to hopefully have something approaching a career at some point.

Hope you are keeping well Barry!

# ? Apr 27, 2024 13:19

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