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Selachian posted:"Planet X" was the next to last arc on Morrison's run -- he ended with "Here Comes Tomorrow," which wasn't really that good anyway. I think Whedon's run on Astonishing was next and also undid a lot of Morrison's Mutants as a culture stuff. "We have to dress like super heroes," etc.
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Sep 13, 2020 05:21
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Skwirl posted:I think Whedon's run on Astonishing was next and also undid a lot of Morrison's Mutants as a culture stuff. Morrison wasn't allowed to use Colossus, which is why Emma Frost got the Diamond power, but Whedon was. I always assumed Morrison pissed people off on the way out, Millar maybe?
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Sep 13, 2020 11:51
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Strange Tales #106. (1963) Sue Storm explains the secret identity of the Human Torch to her brother.   I think the Marvel universe is still operating in quasi-real-time at this point, so the FF have been operating openly in New York for up to two years when this happens.
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Sep 13, 2020 12:59
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BooDooBoo posted:Morrison wasn't allowed to use Colossus, which is why Emma Frost got the Diamond power, but Whedon was. Colossus died sacrificing himself to cure the legacy virus, and that was like a month before Morrison started. Whedon was 3 years later or so I think? So by then it was okay to bring him back.
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Sep 13, 2020 18:02
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Endless Mike posted:Morrison wasn't kicked off, as far as I know. He told the story he wanted to tell, and, yes, Magneto went from smart, conniving fake-Xorn to murder-happy New York destroyer over the course of a couple issues. This was followed up by Chuck loving Austen getting exactly two issues of New X-Men before the "New" was removed from the name again, in which he missed the mark on what Morrison was trying to do. OK, the totality of my familiarity with this whole plotline is just the stuff I gleaned in passing from this vid, is that actually accurate as to how batshit the whole thing is? Seriously, I think X-men might be less of a comic and more of a soap opera stuck in "let's do weird episodes" mode.
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Sep 15, 2020 01:03
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MadDogMike posted:OK, the totality of my familiarity with this whole plotline is just the stuff I gleaned in passing from this vid, is that actually accurate as to how batshit the whole thing is? Seriously, I think X-men might be less of a comic and more of a soap opera stuck in "let's do weird episodes" mode. Pretty much, although it was more extreme in this case because you had writers fighting over what the status quo of the X-Men should be. Morrison shook things up a lot during his run on New X-Men, and while it can be debated (and has been debated, endlessly) whether his changes were good ideas or too extreme, the more traditional X-Men writers like Claremont and Austen worked fast to heap dirt most of them the moment Morrison moved on.
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Sep 15, 2020 01:37
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Selachian posted:Pretty much, although it was more extreme in this case because you had writers fighting over what the status quo of the X-Men should be. Morrison shook things up a lot during his run on New X-Men, and while it can be debated (and has been debated, endlessly) whether his changes were good ideas or too extreme, the more traditional X-Men writers like Claremont and Austen worked fast to heap dirt most of them the moment Morrison moved on. I think "more traditional" is misleading here, especially in considering why they each moved so quickly to undo elements of Morrison's run. In fact part of what I love about Morrison's New X-Men and what made it sing so much as it was being published was not so much that it was doing brand new things but that it was continuing the tacit trajectory that Claremont had been setting up when he left the books in the early 90s-- mutants as less a conventional superhero team, more as a global culture with no ways of doing things, new ways of arranging themselves socially, etc.. Everything between the end of Claremont's first run and the beginning of Morrison's-- even very decent comics like large chunks of Excalibur or John Francis Moore's X-Force or PAD's X-Factor-- was essentially trying to walk back from what Claremont was offering and trying to make more conventional, legible superhero comics. Even his own return in the late 90s, even as it really tried to introduce new elements into the familiar soup of the mutant books by that time, was pretty lovely largely because it was just More Superhero Comics. His heart wasn't in it. So I always read Morrison as less a rejection of the tradition Claremont set up and more like the real heir to it. The problem is, Claremont was very attached to certain elements of the franchise he'd played such a part in, and I think he found Morrison's notion of Magneto as a senile, pathetic old terrorist to be, if anything, reactionary. Claremont couldn't let go of the image of Magneto as a romantic freedom fighter, and, tellingly, the last 15 years have proven to be more attached to that version than Morrison's (although I think Morrison's Magneto is really interesting). It's not that Claremont was trying to seize the reins back from Morrison in the name of tradition-- it's that their mutually radical approaches to the X-Men just happened to be in conflict to one another. As for Austen, I think he was really trying to sort of continue the curve Morrison projected by continuing to think of mutants as a tangible subculture with their own approaches to sexuality and the family in particular. It's just that he was a weird horny idiot with bad reading comprehension. I think he just kind of hosed up in a really baffling way. Because he'was bad at writing comic books.
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Sep 15, 2020 02:12
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Jerusalem posted:It's been a long time since I read it, but if I remember correctly Magneto was using a drug (which itself was generated by a mutant, or actually the mutant WAS the drug? I can't exactly remember) that upped his powers but made him dangerously unstable mentally which was the explanation for why he was pulling the dumb poo poo? The drug itself was part of a sentient antediluvian bacterium that sought only to destroy mutants, and this bacteria - Sublime - was implied to be the reason people hated and feared mutants to begin with. Like, it's a sapient bacterial parasite that has totally colonised the human race and causes them to hate mutants as a result. But also as well as being a universally present parasite in all humans, it can possess specific people and use them as host bodies? But it doesn't usually do this, and also, it can't possess mutants, unless they ingest it through an aerosolised street drug, in which case it can. Morrison's run doesn't hold up that well, I think. It has a lot of cool stuff (like Cassandra Nova), but I can't get past the "an evil bacteria from prehistory is behind everything and it turned itself into a mutant power-boosting street drug so that mutants would use it so that it could influence their behaviour". It just gets worse in Here Comes Tomorrow, where the villain is Sublime possessing Beast's body.
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Sep 15, 2020 02:35
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Android Blues posted:The drug itself was part of a sentient antediluvian bacterium that sought only to destroy mutants, and this bacteria - Sublime - was implied to be the reason people hated and feared mutants to begin with. Like, it's a sapient bacterial parasite that has totally colonised the human race and causes them to hate mutants as a result. But also as well as being a universally present parasite in all humans, it can possess specific people and use them as host bodies? But it doesn't usually do this, and also, it can't possess mutants, unless they ingest it through an aerosolised street drug, in which case it can. Why is X-Men like this
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Sep 15, 2020 07:20
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Captain Oblivious posted:Why is X-Men like this Ultimately, it's all Claremont's fault.
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Sep 15, 2020 07:26
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Android Blues posted:I can't get past the "an evil bacteria from prehistory is behind everything and it turned itself into a mutant power-boosting street drug so that mutants would use it so that it could influence their behaviour". It just gets worse in Here Comes Tomorrow, where the villain is Sublime possessing Beast's body. That bits really good, though. An ancient evil older than civilization itself having to reinvent itself as a hip, cool party drug for an emerging subculture just to cling to relevancy owns.
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Sep 15, 2020 07:31
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Dan Didio posted:That bits really good, though. An ancient evil older than civilization itself having to reinvent itself as a hip, cool party drug for an emerging subculture just to cling to relevancy owns. Is this a metaphor for Claremont?
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Sep 15, 2020 12:24
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MadDogMike posted:OK, the totality of my familiarity with this whole plotline is just the stuff I gleaned in passing from this vid, is that actually accurate as to how batshit the whole thing is? Seriously, I think X-men might be less of a comic and more of a soap opera stuck in "let's do weird episodes" mode. There's a reason Jay & Miles describe X-Men as a superhero soap opera in the intro to every episode. (Also listen to it, it owns).
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Sep 15, 2020 12:50
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I would imagine Claremont probably didn't like his holocaust survivor character running his own death camps.
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Sep 15, 2020 13:55
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*glances over at Israel*
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Sep 15, 2020 13:59
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I enjoy anti-hero Magneto more than Morrison's take, but overall I liked his run a lot and I'm very happy that the current status quo is finally following up on some of his ideas. I wouldn't be too surprised if Sublime shows up in some capacity in Hickman's X-Men. The idea of an ancient bacteria who is hostile to the concept of evolution fits in really well with some of the themes being explored currently in the series.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:57
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On the other hand, Sublime as the source of anti-Mutant prejudice kind of undercuts the entire metaphor of mutants as an oppressed minority. Between that and Magneto being presented as a one-dimensional mass murderer, there's an odd reactionary element to Morrison's run.
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Sep 15, 2020 16:07
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Re: Magneto's characterization, I remember a poster here remarking that it's the logical implication of Morrison's view that all stories "count"; someone who is only genocidal sometimes is a bad person. Then again, my impression is that some academic research into Nakam takes a similarly ambivalent "only genocidal sometimes" view of some of its members; I wonder if some of the X-Men writers had Nakam in mind when writing Magneto.
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Sep 15, 2020 16:31
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Endless Mike posted:Chuck loving Austen secret identity, "Sam Clemens" (I'm pondering whether to do a Worldwatch thread)
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Sep 18, 2020 07:41
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Angry Salami posted:On the other hand, Sublime as the source of anti-Mutant prejudice kind of undercuts the entire metaphor of mutants as an oppressed minority. People have got to remember that when Morrison did his take on Magneto all his criticisms of the character were correct. The noble and tragic anti-hero Magneto that Claremont invented who leads X-Men teams t had not been the character in a decade. The literal last arc before Morrison took over had Magneto ethnically cleansing populations and plotting to destroy humanity. The hostile reaction to Morrison's Magneto was in Defense of a character Morrison was not even really criticizing. Ironically Morrison is probably the man most responsible for Magneto being a sympathetic character again. And the most frustrating part is that Morrison gave them an out. They didn't have to make this convoluted Xorn's brother Xorn possessing Xorn nonsense. He outright stated in his arc that Magneto was under mind control via Pre-Cambrian bacteria. If you wanted to bring back sympathetic Magneto "being horrified at what Sublime tricked you into doing" is the perfect character arc for it. Plus I don't think Morrison meant Sublime was literally brainwashing all humans to hate mutants, but in how he was behind stuff like the U-Men and Weapon Plus, egging on tension and being the voice in the crowd that starts the chant that everyone else gets caught up in. Stuff like Sublime is actually something we need more of in X-Men but only ever gpt done by Morrison. That is, villains who aren't Bigots and their Robots or other Mutants. The idea that if Mutants were an evolutionary jump then their opponents should be reflective of that. Like competing post human species like Cassandra Nova, or the first organism desperate to prevent more fit species from evolving like Sublime.
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Sep 28, 2020 02:59
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In still not sure how I feel about Morrison's bit about Cap being Weapon I and effectively making him an intended tool of genocide.
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Sep 28, 2020 06:18
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:In still not sure how I feel about Morrison's bit about Cap being Weapon I and effectively making him an intended tool of genocide. That's a bit of in-universe PR spin though. Weapon Plus didn't exist yet when Cap was created, but years later when Weapon Plus is actually formed they start off attempting to replicate Project Rebirth (as one does in Marvel comics) and so they consider Cap part of Weapon I even though they had poo poo all to do with it.
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Sep 28, 2020 14:11
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Making Weapon X mean Weapon 10 was very silly. That was a silly retcon to do while trying to seem clever.
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Sep 28, 2020 14:27
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it's fine, and even before Morrison's Weapon Plus stuff the history of Weapon X was incredibly convoluted and self contradictory.
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Sep 28, 2020 19:49
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Lurdiak posted:Making Weapon X mean Weapon 10 was very silly. That was a silly retcon to do while trying to seem clever. Plus I rather liked that there were these distinct projects in mind to advance humanity / suppress mutants that were weird superscience bullshit
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Sep 29, 2020 04:24
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Selachian posted:Uh huh. It was during the Geoff Johns run on Avengers. See, "Dell Rusk" is an anagram of "Red Skull," and it was all so terribly clever. It has been almost thirty years and I am still pissed off about that. It was worse than Identity Crisis, because at least Meltzer had the culprit's identity planned from the beginning, and stuck with it.
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Sep 29, 2020 05:33
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FilthyImp posted:Is it any worse than Powers of X being Powers of 10? Yes, because Powers of 10 is backed up in story with vignettes taking place in years 1, 10, 100, 1000 of the XMen. Though, personally, I do like the idea that the Weapon projects are numbered. Skirts around the minor issue of the program naming itself after the X gene before it was codified and called that in universe.
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Sep 29, 2020 06:07
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And it wasn't a reveal, they said it was ten all along.
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Sep 29, 2020 06:13
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Yes, because Powers of 10 is backed up in story with vignettes taking place in years 1, 10, 100, 1000 of the XMen. Plus (hehe), of all the seemingly endless retcons that have happened to the Weapon X project, turning it into the Weapon Plus program can't even be in the top half of the dumbest ones.
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Sep 29, 2020 09:28
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Thread necromancy! My all-time favorite secret identity moment is Thunderbolts #1. I had no idea about the secret going in and the immense potential of the stories to follow blew me away
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Aug 6, 2021 21:21
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who remembers Milestone Comics? who remembers their "Worlds Collide" crossover with DC - specifically, the Superman books? Some members of Blood Syndicate ("they're not a team, they're a gang") are talking about the weird events resulting from, basically, a god tearing a hole between universes. "Some people are saying they saw Superman flying around." "Superman?! Like on television?" "Like on television." This eventually leads to a confrontation between Superman and Blood Syndicate, with the following exchange: "Who are you people!" "Who the gently caress are you! Does your momma know you left the house looking like Clark Kent?!"
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Oct 19, 2021 04:37
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Parahexavoctal posted:who remembers Milestone Comics? Reminds me of the Superman/Fantastic Four crossover by Dan Jurgens, where Franklin and the Thing are huge fans of the Timm/Dini Superman cartoon.
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Oct 19, 2021 21:54
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