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For EC10's hand I would fold the river without too much trouble, and on the turn I think the check is good against this opponent but would be a mistake against someone tricky who might try to bluff the river.
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Mar 3, 2007 22:47
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| # ? May 20, 2024 15:21 |
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crackstar posted:
KK or TT seems logical based on the quick call of the flop raise. What really confuses me is the pot sized river bet. I would think if he wanted a call he would bet lower, or am I completely off base here?
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Mar 4, 2007 02:27
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EC10 hand. Played fine if you folded and broke some keys in your keyboard. If he doesnt get out of line that much then its easy to put him either a made hand or a very strong draw like Q9  or a made hand already like QJ He might be having some retarded (quite possibly gay too) like A9 or T9 but its probably unlikely.Situationally I'd bluff this kinda spot maybe 5-10% of the time and dependant upon opponents. You're beat here way too often to call that.
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Mar 4, 2007 03:48
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Doddery Meerkat posted:KK or TT seems logical based on the quick call of the flop raise. What really confuses me is the pot sized river bet. I would think if he wanted a call he would bet lower, or am I completely off base here? Dunno, maybe to stop bluff-raises. If he leads 1/2 pot and faces a push, he has a decision even with KK. Maybe he just mashed the pot button. Spechel EDD posted:EC10 hand. Yeah, busted spades are the only other thing you're ahead of that makes sense.
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Mar 4, 2007 06:21
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http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTCxsTFxcDExMTExcfGzYjFx8PHxMc%3d Bet more on flop? I can't get off this, right? or no.
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Mar 4, 2007 09:57
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tightshirt posted:http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTCxsTFxcDExMTExcfGzYjFx8PHxMc%3d We can't see your hand.
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Mar 4, 2007 10:02
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blah_blah posted:We can't see your hand. Sorry, I had 1010, don't remember suit (not H)
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Mar 4, 2007 10:16
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tightshirt posted:Sorry, I had 1010, don't remember suit (not H) A min-raise from a donk is scary, but you've got to call it with your 10 outs and great implied odds. I check-call a light bet on this river. As played I can't find a fold anywhere.
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Mar 4, 2007 11:46
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I did fold the 99 set hand. Meh. Still not sure if betting turn is better there.
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Mar 4, 2007 15:13
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Betting the turn is really opponent dependent. VS that guy (plays pretty straightforwrd) I would've probably played it the same way but betting the turn is awful in my opinion for several reasons. The first one is whats the perfect bet there to make him fold without making your hand transparent as being very scared? Checking is the safest because it gives you an extra free card to hope to pair the board or to get that case 9. Betting turn is almost committing yourself to having to call any river practically due to the pot. He is not going to fold a straight there.
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Mar 5, 2007 00:05
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EC10 posted:Xpost from 2p2 msnl: I instacall, but only because it's a 6-handed game with one raise preflop and you have a set. If you really think about it logically though, it looks like this could be a fold, as lame as that would be. This guy sounds like he would check/call with something weaker, so it's probably a straight or missed spades. However, keep in mind that it's very possible to overthink in spots like this, and if you just jam the turn and get it all in, I don't think that's wrong at all. Again, 6-handed raise UTG means very little, and he could easily be playing two pair or AK fast. Edit: Spechel, this hand isn't very scared at all. If I bet the turn and get checkraised all-in, I'm instacalling. Bet/call, check/push is a very common line for a draw to take. Even if it's the straight, I still have lots of outs. The only thing to be worried about is set over set, and if it happens I just chalk it up to cold deck and forget about it. Especially on a board like this where draws are all over the place. coiol fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Mar 5, 2007 |
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Mar 5, 2007 00:29
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coiol posted:Again, 6-handed raise UTG means very little, and he could easily be playing two pair or AK fast. Against an unknown I would agree with you, but against a tightish and predictable player you can often narrow their range down quite a bit if they raise UTG. 22-AA, AJo+, ATs+ and KQ is a reasonable range for a tightish player to open UTG. 22-88 obviously drop to the flop raise, 99 isn't possible, and of the remaining range we're only ahead of AA, AK, AJs(spades) and a very brave AT(unlikely). While people do sometimes surprise you, we'd have to open up his starting range quite a bit to make this a call. Given the same action with the villain in the cut-off I would probably at least call here. What do you think?
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Mar 5, 2007 01:07
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coiol posted:
Of course youre instacalling because you just committed yourself to it with a bet. What do you bet there then? I dont like to have to stick a stack in that spot with one card hoping that the board pairs/case 9 comes. It's better to excercise some self restraint and just take the free card. This is crazy to even call on the river vs a usually straight forward player.
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Mar 5, 2007 03:36
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What I mean is that I would love to get it in on the turn and I believe I would have more than 50% EV in such a situation. There are draws everywhere and even very tight players will open UTG with suited Broadways, suited Aces, suited connectors. Of course, as always, there are very few absolutes in poker. I'm assuming that Hero raises flops like these with air and draws at least some of the time, so this shouldn't scream monster at all. If Hero plays very tight and makes few moves maybe it's a check through on the turn and a fold on the end. Edit: Another thing is that if I'm running good, I'll jam the turn and just roll my eyes and call it cold deck if I lose. If I'm running bad, I might check through the turn and fold the river. At the moment I'm running pretty good so this is my advice 
coiol fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Mar 5, 2007 |
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Mar 5, 2007 03:53
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Yeah this hand was definitely opponent dependant which is why I included that description at the beginning. I think betting the turn is the "easy" way to play the hand, because obv you're calling a push and if he has a straight you can just say "oh well I have a set I hope the board pairs, variance etc!" Against someone more aggro and potbet-prone (for example, Bulldozer or alchemist on cake) I'd be turbo calling river. The fold was definitely read dependant. His passive play with AK in that blind v blind pot says a lot about him, etc.
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Mar 5, 2007 05:18
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I don't think he has the straight all that often though.
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Mar 5, 2007 05:29
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LuckySevens posted:I don't think he has the straight all that often though.
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Mar 5, 2007 06:29
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Villain has played very loose-passive over a smallish sample, limp-calling often. He had a draw earlier in a 4-way pot that he played passively and hit. That's about all I have, he hasn't been at the table long. Fold or push? http://www.pokerhand.org/?877169 edit: Also my c-bet frequency was a bit lower at this table than usual for a couple of reasons, and I haven't really gotten out of line. crackstar fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Mar 5, 2007 |
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Mar 5, 2007 06:56
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EC10 posted:Against someone more aggro and potbet-prone (for example, Bulldozer or alchemist on cake) I'd be turbo calling river. The fold was definitely read dependant. His passive play with AK in that blind v blind pot says a lot about him, etc. I'm not saying your read is off, but the AK hand doesn't mean he's passive. I could see myself playing AK like that some percentage of the time depending on who I'm up against. I would definitely expect to win most of the time, but there's little value in a river checkraise. Other lines may have more value in isolation, but bet/check/check sets up future hands and changes how the rest of the game plays out and so on.
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Mar 5, 2007 09:54
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Not James Buchanan fucked around with this message at 03:00 on May 2, 2013 |
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Mar 5, 2007 10:43
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QQ is an absolute monster in this hand. You can shove the river with almost any stacks and most players won't fold. Bet the turn to build the pot. If he's on a draw and hits it, he's still not going to commit because any pair beats a straight/flush. If you're not 2+2 you may not be familiar with the zeebo theorem, but essentially people will never fold a full house or better. Ever.
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Mar 5, 2007 11:09
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xpost from MSNL Been playing with villain (hijackowi65 on cake) a ton over the past week or so. He calls PF with a HUGE range both in pos/OOP. He floats me more than anyone has ever before. In position, OOP, no pair no draw, whatever. But he also just calls with draws and [censored]. Since we've been playing short handed a lot we've tangled a ton. I've pwned him a few times calling pot bets and [censored] on the river with ace high or underpairs etc. He doesn't check raise a lot so this is sort of a weird spot I guess. Should I just shove over his c/r? Flat call and shove non-heart non-straight card rivers? I obviously [censored] up the turn by not putting another bet in and thus putting myself in awkward river spot. Note that the river bet is like 1/3 pot which is quite strange since he typically just pot bets. Effective $4,300 stacks I raise J J to $70 on the BTN, Villain in SB calls, BB foldsFlop 6  7 9 Pot $160Villain checks I bet $130 Villain calls Turn J Pot: $420Villain checks I bet $300 Villain raises to $862 I call River: 8  Pot: $2144Villain bets $650
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Mar 6, 2007 17:18
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Here's what I would like to know: 1) How often does he c/r you? There's a difference between he doesn't c/r alot and he NEVER checkraises. Also has he shown it down any of these times? 2) When he bets pot as a bluff on river or whatever, how big are these pots usually? Are they your standard lovely little hu pots or does he freely throw around money with no regard? (think micah or mikegreek) 3) How does he value his actual hands? What does he do with a huge hand on the flop like maybe a set of 9s? I can't see a drat thing on the river that you are beating. I also don't see how shoving the turn is profitable unless he will consistently call with a worse hand or likes to bluff/semibluff checkraise a lot which you say he doesn't.
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Mar 6, 2007 18:25
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nachos posted:1) How often does he c/r you? There's a difference between he doesn't c/r alot and he NEVER checkraises. Also has he shown it down any of these times? quote:2) When he bets pot as a bluff on river or whatever, how big are these pots usually? Are they your standard lovely little hu pots or does he freely throw around money with no regard? (think micah or mikegreek) quote:3) How does he value his actual hands? What does he do with a huge hand on the flop like maybe a set of 9s? quote:I can't see a drat thing on the river that you are beating. I also don't see how shoving the turn is profitable unless he will consistently call with a worse hand or likes to bluff/semibluff checkraise a lot which you say he doesn't.
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Mar 6, 2007 18:40
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With you having said that he has been floating you quite a bit I think it's certainly possible that he is check raising both as a general play, and also betting the scare card. After you call his check raise I think that he would lead out stronger on the river if he genuinely had a strong hand hoping that you were strong enough to pay him. The small bet on the river looks like he might be taking one more shot at the pot hoping you fold since you wouldn't have to fold too often for him to be right here. Calling is really read dependent and you obviously have to put him on a bluff in order to make the call, but I think he would have led out for 1200-1500 with a real hand.
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Mar 6, 2007 21:08
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The turn check raise really could mean a ton of different hands. A heart plus pair (or perhaps he had something like 67h), an unlikely J+heart, an 8 +heart... etc. I could easily see him taking a stab at you with any of the above hands on the river if he sees you call down with A high and low pairs. What level does he seem to think to? EDIT: It just seems like too convenient of a bet for him on the river. (Doesn't have to work much to profit and if knows you can make tough laydowns it gets you to fold a ton of hands that beat him.) Doddery Meerkat fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Mar 7, 2007 |
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Mar 7, 2007 00:41
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Definitely don't consider folding on the river. That looks a lot like a blocking bet to me. Raising would be awful, so just call it and expect to see 98/87/86 a lot of the time. Putting in another bet on the turn makes things a bit awkward given stack sizes since if he gets all-in it's quite likely that you're behind unless you caught him with an underset. I probably just call the turn and put in one bet on almost every river. I'd be much more afraid of a T/5 than the 8.
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Mar 7, 2007 01:35
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Since none of you human being retards have responded to the last few hands I’ve posted, despite some of them being horribly bad, I'll make this hand a choose your own adventure in hopes of getting some responses. 1-2 NL @ Borgata, villain is an older, possibly mentally deficient gentleman who has made such brilliant plays as open raising to 15 and showing down total junk after cold-calling raises PF. I have had a total of 1 hand I’ve raised PF with prior to this in about 3 hours of play. Some of the table seems to think that I am playing super tight. I am not, I have just not had many playable hands. I don't this particular mongoloid was aware of what state he was in, much less how other people were playing. The game is 8-handed, with effective stacks of 200. 2 players limp, hero raises to 11 with AQo from 3 off the button. It's folded to the SB, who 3-bets to 25. It’s folded back to the hero, who calls. Flop: QKA rainbow (pot 52) Villain looks intently at the flop with a furrowed brow, his brain furiously trying to decode this strange grouping of letters and symbols. He then tosses 5 red chips in and stares directly at our hero. Hero ??? (stacks 175) edit: I forgot the most key part of the hand: The villain is a dead ringer for Cliff Yablonski, so get his face in your head as you think about the hand. I'd post a pic for good measure but the Cliffy pics are currently red X's 
crackstar fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Mar 7, 2007 |
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Mar 7, 2007 21:13
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crackstar posted:
JT has you cooked, but doesnt justify a pre-flop re-raise. KK and AK has you cooked and justifies a pre-flop re-raise. AA and QQ are unlikely given your holding. Even maniacs get hands so I'd consider KK/AK closely followed by JT (though I think something like Ax, KQ, KJ or QJ describes most of his possible hands, based on your description). I wouldnt be laying down AQ, assuming 5 reds is 25, the odds are certainly there. I'd probably come over the top here to find out where I am (65 or so). No sense letting him take control with what could essentially be a probe bet. Saltin fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 7, 2007 |
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Mar 7, 2007 21:57
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i could see the villian r/r with JJ too considering the info about him AND its A.C.
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Mar 7, 2007 22:36
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Saltin posted:JT has you cooked, but doesnt justify a pre-flop re-raise. One reason I posted this hand was because I think it's interesting to think about how you would play the hand differently against a good/conservative player than you would against Cliff Yablonski here. I am fairly sure that he has no concept of either position or why it is bad to make pot-builder raises out of position with marginal hands. I think that most aces, many pairs, and almost any two broadway cards are in his range. Also anything that looked pretty to him at the time I in fact raise to 75. He calls the additional 50 after thinking for a short time. Turn blanks off, 2. I think it completed the rainbow, but I'm not sure. Cliff checks immediately. Hero?? (100 left, pot is 200)
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Mar 7, 2007 23:08
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Uhh, slide them in? 2pair against a loving idiot with a big range, I'll go broke here. He probably has you beat if you're posting it here, but he could definitely have AT, AJ, KQ, or worse.
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Mar 7, 2007 23:17
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Morphius22000 posted:Uhh, slide them in? 2pair against a loving idiot with a big range, I'll go broke here. He probably has you beat if you're posting it here, but he could definitely have AT, AJ, KQ, or worse. I did push, villain called and showed JJ, river was a Q, and I ship the pot. I posted it because I thought the flop would be a particularly tough spot against a solid opponent. I decided on the flop that I was going broke here against this particular guy, but I don't think I would against everyone. Given the same pre-flop and flop action against a conservative opponent, what would your plan be for the rest of the hand? Would you drop this hand to a flop 3-bet? How would your plan change if you're playing much deeper, like 200 or 250BB?
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Mar 8, 2007 00:34
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crackstar posted:I did push, villain called and showed JJ, river was a Q, and I ship the pot. JJ weee...what do I win? against a conservative player I cry and if you can only see him playing big hands then I prob fold to a 3bet on flop
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Mar 8, 2007 01:11
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Against a good player I'd probably drop it preflop. I also may just limp to begin with. AQo is a huge trap hand and gets me into a ton of trouble.
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Mar 8, 2007 08:25
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This is a hand I ran into just now. I think I played it right. Full Tilt Poker Game #1944466234: Table Camino Del Santo - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:04:59 ET - 2007/03/08 Seat 6: SAMelvinTheJerk ($47.55) Seat 7: miket2315 ($19.85) Seat 9: Crazygerman02 ($19.40) miket2315 posts the small blind of $0.10 Crazygerman02 posts the big blind of $0.25 The button is in seat #6 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to SAMelvinTheJerk [6c 6d] SAMelvinTheJerk raises to $0.85 miket2315 has 15 seconds left to act miket2315 calls $0.75 Crazygerman02 folds *** FLOP *** [4c 3h 3s] miket2315 checks SAMelvinTheJerk bets $1.95 miket2315 calls $1.95 *** TURN *** [4c 3h 3s] [6h] miket2315 checks SAMelvinTheJerk checks *** RIVER *** [4c 3h 3s 6h] [Th] miket2315 bets $15 SAMelvinTheJerk raises to $30 miket2315 calls $2.05, and is all in Uncalled bet of $12.95 returned to SAMelvinTheJerk *** SHOW DOWN *** SAMelvinTheJerk shows [6c 6d] (a full house, Sixes full of Threes) miket2315 mucks SAMelvinTheJerk wins the pot ($38.95) with a full house, Sixes full of Threes miket2315 is sitting out SAMelvinTheJerk: sorry dude *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $39.95 | Rake $1 Board: [4c 3h 3s 6h Th] Seat 6: SAMelvinTheJerk (button) showed [6c 6d] and won ($38.95) with a full house, Sixes full of Threes Seat 7: miket2315 (small blind) mucked [8h Ah] - a flush, Ace high Seat 9: Crazygerman02 (big blind) folded before the Flop
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Mar 8, 2007 09:07
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What are you asking? I think you should bet the turn here, but there isn't much strategy involved in 'turn second nuts, have villain make nut flush on river and essentially open shove'.
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Mar 8, 2007 10:17
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Melvin looks good if he's aggro enough to lead the river with air, if not I'd much rather bet turn+river to try and get him to call down with some trash. Also why are you apologizing  For a hand of my own: http://www.pokerhand.org/?886699 Villain is multitabling on most of the nl400 tables ub has running and seems decent. We haven't really gotten into any hands with each other. No idea what he thinks I play like, but likely he is treating me as a decent unknown right now. First question I have about this hand is my flop call. That is a loving MISERABLE flop for me since he tripped up with most hands he calls a 3bet with. Anybody find a fold here? I figured I'd peel to see if I could catch him screwing around with 66-99. Turn is pretty easy I think, since I don't want him checking through with a set or a heart and there's no more value from a mid-low pair. So on the river should I shove and hope he pays off with a set or check and hope he bluffs?
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Mar 8, 2007 10:20
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Xyven posted:Melvin looks good if he's aggro enough to lead the river with air, if not I'd much rather bet turn+river to try and get him to call down with some trash. Also why are you apologizing Such a lovely spot. I kind of like check-calling the turn, I think he's freerolling against you a lot, I'd go for the cheap showdown. I think even an idiot can fold a set here, and maybe you might squeeze out a dumb bluff *shrugs*.
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Mar 9, 2007 04:17
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| # ? May 20, 2024 15:21 |
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Solid multitablers often shy away from running big river bluffs, and I expect him to instacheck it through with a set. However, I don't know if you'll get value off a weaker hand by pushing. I think you're kind of stuck, but I probably shove anyway since it's shorthanded and he can justify a call with a set. Check/calling the turn would be very bad. You're most likely ahead of a set or a pair + heart, but half the deck kills your hand on the river and you'll probably have to check/fold. I like the lead because some players will play passively and check through a set on this turn, but if you want to check, shove it over his bet instead of calling.
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Mar 9, 2007 06:03
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