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Feel free to discuss NL tactics, or any theory related to NL. For hands, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow these steps so you don't get mocked by your fellow goons. 1) Use a converter, is possible. Converters rule because its easy to read and standardised so not mistakes are present, with one exception; sometimes going all in can screw up the converter. Make sure you re-read the post and ensure the converter did its job properly. Link: http://www.urmomlol.com/handconverter/hhconverter.cgi 2) Please post stack sizes, how big the pot is in $'s on every street, what limit, and how much you have left if its a river decision. Take the time to use as well, it makes it a lot easier. Don't be afraid to type it out and make it pretty. 3) Reads mean everything. Ok, sometimes it'll be the first orbit, you have no reads. But if you have anything, please post it. Its the only way we can tell you exactly what we'd do. 4) Writing your thinking on the streets also helps with breaking down ideas. Lets go!
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Feb 2, 2007 02:08
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That hand history converter does not exist, or your link is broken.
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Feb 2, 2007 03:14
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I usually stay far away from SHNL, so go easy on me. I didn't have reads on the guy, but it just seemed like a weird way to play AA so I wasn't convinced, and figured my 6 outs may pad me a little bit in any case. I'm pretty sure it was played wrong, so give me some advice. FullTiltPoker Game #1716061162: Table Benson (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:37:02 ET - 2007/02/01 Seat 1: ($62.15) Seat 2: Villain ($44.85) Seat 3: ($40.05) Seat 4: ($42.40) Seat 5: Hero ($62.70) Seat 6: ($30.45) BadBeatHern posts the small blind of $0.25 Hero posts the big blind of $0.50 The button is in seat #3 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero [9  9 ]6 folds 1 calls $0.50 Villian calls $0.50 3 folds 4 calls $0.25 Hero raises to $2.50 wg100 folds Villian raises to $4.50 BadBeatHern folds Hero calls $2 *** FLOP *** [5  7 6 ]Hero checks Villian bets $4 Hero raises to $14 Villian raises to $40.35, and is all in Hero calls $26.35 TheKING fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Feb 2, 2007 |
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Feb 2, 2007 05:00
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TheKING posted:I usually stay far away from SHNL, so go easy on me. I didn't have reads on the guy, but it just seemed like a weird way to play AA so I wasn't convinced. He doesn't have to have AA (e.g, he can have TT+ as well and play it the same way) and you're getting a great price to try and spike and 8 or 9 and see if he checks the turn. Just call the flop, you generally don't have much FE against pf minraisers.
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Feb 2, 2007 05:50
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TheKING posted:I usually stay far away from SHNL, so go easy on me. I didn't have reads on the guy, but it just seemed like a weird way to play AA so I wasn't convinced, and figured my 6 outs may pad me a little bit in any case. I'm pretty sure it was played wrong, so give me some advice. I don't mind the flop raise if you think he's LAG and trying to buy it, but after he limp/reraises PF and then 3bets allin i don't see how you can be drawing to anything but 6 outs. edit: I think c/c is definetly a good play, and probably the right play. The reason I advocated raising the flop is this: A limp reraise means one of two things: "I have AA-KK!!!" or "Always raising every time I limp, gently caress YOU I RAISE YOU BACK!" Generally you're raising limpers very liberally from LP, and as a result he might be playing back at you with anything. If you check/call the flop, and a blank falls on the turn, and he bets 2/3 - pot, you'd really need to fold. A raise on the flop (maybe smaller, maybe 12) allows you to really get him to define his hand. When he pushes you know you're drawing to 6 outs and must fold. I could be wrong about alot of this, but that's my thinking. dumbhand fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Feb 2, 2007 |
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Feb 2, 2007 05:53
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blah_blah posted:He doesn't have to have AA (e.g, he can have TT+ as well and play it the same way) and you're getting a great price to try and spike and 8 or 9 and see if he checks the turn. Yeah, this pf play is going to be a solid hand most of the time against an unknown [from what I've seen at least], and his flop bet is great for you. I don't think the c/r accomplishes much at all, and you are most definitely killed once he shoves. If I added correctly, you are getting like 14:4 to call the flop which is 3.5:1. You have 6 outs that are likely going to stack his overpair pretty often, so I just c/c.
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Feb 2, 2007 06:41
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NL 25 6MAX Seat 1: Seat 1 ($35.05) Seat 2: HERO ($24.65) Seat 3: Seat 3 ($26.35) Seat 4: VILLAIN ($14.45) Seat 5: Seat 5 ($4.55) Seat 6: Seat 6 ($43.25) Seat 5 posts the small blind of $0.10 Seat 6 posts the big blind of $0.25 The button is in seat #4 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to HERO [J J]Seat 1 folds HERO raises to $0.75 Seat 3 folds VILLAIN calls $0.75 Seat 5 calls $0.65 Seat 6 folds *** FLOP *** [T 6 8]Seat 5 checks HERO bets $2 VILLAIN raises to $13.70, and is all in Seat 5 folds HERO ??? Seat 1: Seat 1 ($36.85) Seat 2: Seat 2 ($72.95) Seat 3: VILLAIN ($12.10) Seat 4: HERO ($23.10) Seat 5: Seat 5 ($67.75) Seat 6: Seat 6 ($22.90) Seat 5 posts the small blind of $0.10 Seat 6 posts the big blind of $0.25 The button is in seat #4 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to HERO [Q Q]Seat 1 folds Seat 2 folds VILLAIN raises to $0.75 HERO raises to $2 Seat 5 folds Seat 6 folds VILLAIN calls $1.25 *** FLOP *** [3 2 2]VILLAIN bets $4 HERO raises to $21.10, and is all in VILLAIN calls $6.10, and is all in No reads. I'm pretty sure I am ahead and that this is pretty standard. Is there anything I should do differently in these situations? Raise more preflop?
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Feb 2, 2007 16:58
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1st hand is pretty read-based, he could be a super-aggro donk with QTo (according to your hands he seems to be), or he could have a set, I wanna see what others have to say here because I'd have trouble too. 2nd I would probably RR more preflop, closer to 2.75 maybe. On the flop it's completely standard, he's short stacked and could do this with ANY pair, put him in.
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Feb 2, 2007 17:46
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Morphius22000 posted:1st hand is pretty read-based, he could be a super-aggro donk with QTo (according to your hands he seems to be), or he could have a set, I wanna see what others have to say here because I'd have trouble too. I agree with you on pretty much both of these. First hand is definitely read dependent, against an unknown I probably sigh and call and make a note. Second one I make it 2.50 to 3 preflop, and flop play is ridiculously standard, especially with his stack size.
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Feb 2, 2007 18:11
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About Hand #2: Sorry, I actually do have a read on Villain. When I first got to the table he had only $4-$5 over multiple tables so right away I knew he was trying to play nitty and double up on his stronger hands. The very first hand I played I check raised him with complete air on a Q river w/ a paired board and he called b/c he had hit a 9 on the turn w/ 95. So in that 2nd hand I felt that he would only reraise with AA/KK ... maybe QQ in this situation so I only made it $2 so I could fold if he tried to push the rest of his $12. When he called I instantly put him on a medium pair. I had also seen him limp with 22 so I felt like he wouldn't commit money into the pot with a raise with small pairs. When the flop hit, he paused for a veryyy long time. e.g. I still beat this board but do I beat my opponent. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Feb 2, 2007 |
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Feb 2, 2007 18:38
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Hand one I toss. At NL25 he's not smart enough for a checkraise bluff, and he's not going to checkraise you with just a T. I think you're beat. Hand two I probably 3bet a little more just to get him a little more committed. Postflop obviously you don't care what comes, he's going in. If you lose, whatever.
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Feb 2, 2007 22:40
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Alright, I am really bad at math. Could somebody help me figure out my odds here? Nevermind that the guy called my UTG raise with T-4s, or that I put myself in a tough position by raising.. http://www.pokerhand.org/?793734 Okay, this is how I do the math, although I could be completely wrong. He has 17 outs (8 to the straight, 9 to the flush) twice, so that would be 34/47 = 72% to complete a better hand than mine. I have 10 outs to fill up or improve to four of a kind, or 10 outs twice - 20/47 = 42% to improve to a made hand. Assuming I have done the math right so far, the part that gets tricky for me is the fact I don't know how to put the two together as far as my hand improving goes. Who is ahead in this situation?
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Feb 4, 2007 18:35
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faarcyde posted:Assuming I have done the math right so far, the part that gets tricky for me is the fact I don't know how to put the two together as far as my hand improving goes. Who is ahead in this situation? Where you are wrong is that you double count some cards, and sometimes one card will improve both of your hands, and the turn will give you extra outs no matter what it is. You are a little ahead of him when the money goes in, 60/40.
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Feb 4, 2007 19:04
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faarcyde posted:
Yeah, you can't do it that way. You need to compute the probability of an event occuring or not occuring. He only wins in the event he hits the turn or the river and you don't improve to a boat or quads. 1 - (prob. he wins) = (prob. you win) 1) On the turn he has 14 outs, since the 2 gives you a full house, and you can't double-count the A and 6 because they complete both draws.2) If he hits the turn, any 2, 3, 5, or turn card will re-improve you, so you will have 10 river outs. 3) If you both miss the turn, he can hit 13 outs on the river, since he can't the diamond of the card that came on the turn. So, he wins when he hits turn and you miss river, and when you both miss turn and he hits river. Him hitting the turn is 14/45, you locking it up on the turn is 7/45, and neither hitting is 24/45. River odds depend on what comes on the turn. So, odds of him winning is almost (14/45)*(34/44) + (24/45)*(13/44) = 197/495 = 0.3979* (Note: I didn't factor in the odds of a runner runner tie, and other very unlikely events. i.e. A hits on turn, 4 on river, and so on. They more or less cancel out or are negligible.) So you were roughly (1 - 0.3979) = 0.6021 to win once all-in, or 3 times out of 5. Sucks to lose, but it's almost a coinflip. kalensc fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Feb 4, 2007 |
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Feb 4, 2007 19:04
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faarcyde posted:Alright, I am really bad at math. Could somebody help me figure out my odds here? equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 60.606% 59.70% 00.91% 591 9.00 { 5c5h } Hand 1: 39.394% 38.48% 00.91% 381 9.00 { Td4d }
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Feb 4, 2007 20:00
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?794773 Do you think I made a correct move checking on the turn and then betting on the river like I did? My thinking was he certainly hit the flush, and my weakness shown on the turn would make him doubt my bet on the river and peg it as a bluff. Any comments would be mucho appreciated. Iridox posted:You can use Poker Stove to do this. You know what I have this program but am retarded and can't figure out how to use it.
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Feb 5, 2007 00:30
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Iridox posted:You can use Poker Stove to do this. In pokerhand, he can just click on the 'calculate the odds of this hand:' link on the bottom. faarcyde posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?794773 Going for a turn checkraise is fine, but letting the turn go c/c is atrocious. You fail to extract extra $ from high spades and low spades, you give 9x essentially a free card here, and more importantly, you drastically decrease the chance that you will stack various hands. How do you expect to get your remaining $30 in the pot when only $9 has gone in up to the turn? If you make it $15 or so on the turn, the pot is like $38 going into the river, you have $20 ish left, and you get his stack almost every time. blah_blah fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 5, 2007 |
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Feb 5, 2007 01:31
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blah_blah posted:
I kind of like just betting so that spades think they can outdraw him. The flush is raising the turn anyway, so we're not really trapping money with a c/r.
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Feb 5, 2007 01:44
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I raise the flop more, at least $4. You're basically minraising him with $3, and with the spades you are more than happy to take the pot here. The turn is a miracle card and you have to bet. You don't need to ch/r him because if he has a flush he thinks he just outdrew you. You raise big and he will raise more and have no choice but to put the rest in on the river. The turn call scares him and puts little money in the pot. A turn bet/call keeps him more confident and puts more money in the pot.
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Feb 5, 2007 02:16
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LuckySevens posted:The flush is raising the turn anyway, so we're not really trapping money with a c/r. I agree. But this is definitely a scare card and he will bet with some weak hands after you lead pf/lead flop and check turn.
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Feb 5, 2007 02:26
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Most of the postflop play has been covered, but don't open limp preflop. Raise it up to build pots when you flop sets, and to have a chance to take it down on the flop when you miss.
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Feb 5, 2007 02:39
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blah_blah posted:I agree. But this is definitely a scare card and he will bet with some weak hands after you lead pf/lead flop and check turn. Only if he's agro and likes taking shots.
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Feb 5, 2007 02:42
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p0isonxfree posted:Most of the postflop play has been covered, but don't open limp preflop. Raise it up to build pots when you flop sets, and to have a chance to take it down on the flop when you miss. He's UTG and has 80BB; it's fine; with 88 it's a raise but with hands that you play only for set value, a limp is alright.
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Feb 5, 2007 03:35
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blah_blah posted:He's UTG and has 80BB; it's fine; with 88 it's a raise but with hands that you play only for set value, a limp is alright. In a full ring game this might be right but shorthanded I don't think open limping is ever a good idea.
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Feb 5, 2007 04:03
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ElProducto posted:In a full ring game this might be right but shorthanded I don't think open limping is ever a good idea. Depending on the table I think it can be acceptable to open limp suited connectors, low pocket pairs, and AK/KK/AA. This isn't necessarily the default action but I don't mind limping a hand like 44; if you're pretty active and people play back a lot at you (as happens to me at times) it's nice to keep the pot small because of implied odds and because you can play the hands profitably calling a raise but not really calling a reraise. Also if you limp and someone raises behind you, it encourages people to call which is fine if you have a 44 type hand.
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Feb 5, 2007 06:39
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?797988 Is my move to transparent here? I never try this sort of thing, and this hand will probably prevent me from ever trying again  My basic thinking was either he was just C-betting AK - AJ or something, or he had a mid pocket pair, or J-9 or something. I figured I could push him off all three hand ranges so that is why I did it. He deliberated for a long time before calling so I think it almost worked but meh. Suggestions? faarcyde fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Feb 6, 2007 |
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Feb 6, 2007 06:02
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faarcyde posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?797988 After he bets flop and turn pretty strong, I think most of the hands he's folding are missed draws, which you beat so there's no point in folding them out. I really don't think he folds that many better hands here so I probably check behind. EDIT: Also, at NL25, not many people are going to going flopped top pair to one over.
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Feb 6, 2007 06:17
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faarcyde posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?797988 To disguise your bluffs, you need to think about how you would play a big hand on a board like that. Some people like to just smooth call the flop and then start raising on the turn, and other people like to start the raising on flops like that to get draws out. I'll leave out reads and stuff, but as an obvious general tip, calling stations like to see a turn with any type of overcards or draws no matter what the odds, so raising on the flop to win the pot might not work. However, betting or raising a good amount on the turn would probably get anything less than top pair out of the hand. Even if you are wrong and they call, thats a great board because you have plenty of outs. Pushing is sometimes transparent but sometimes it works. It depends on the player.
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Feb 6, 2007 07:19
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jhu1e posted:To disguise your bluffs, you need to think about how you would play a big hand on a board like that. Some people like to just smooth call the flop and then start raising on the turn, and other people like to start the raising on flops like that to get draws out. I'll leave out reads and stuff, but as an obvious general tip, calling stations like to see a turn with any type of overcards or draws no matter what the odds, so raising on the flop to win the pot might not work. However, betting or raising a good amount on the turn would probably get anything less than top pair out of the hand. Even if you are wrong and they call, thats a great board because you have plenty of outs. Pushing is sometimes transparent but sometimes it works. It depends on the player. I think repotting the flop has to be the default here; if you are playing Ax suited this is exactly the kind of flop you want to see, and exactly the kind of flop you want to get your stack in on (hint: you're a 55-45 favorite against 9x or 77 here!)
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Feb 6, 2007 08:12
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blah_blah posted:I think repotting the flop has to be the default here; if you are playing Ax suited this is exactly the kind of flop you want to see, and exactly the kind of flop you want to get your stack in on (hint: you're a 55-45 favorite against 9x or 77 here!) My read on players who make 3/4ish pot-sized bets like that is either a pair that's vulnerable (like 77), or a semibluff. I would definitely take a shot with a raise somewhere on a hand like that, but I would hate to end up with my whole stack in the middle on the flop. I'm not in the trap where I'm too scared of losing money anymore, but I always feel stupid when he turns over the set or w/e and the draw whiffs. I would definitely raise on flops like that to mix up my play and stay aggressive, and sometimes I float because its really fun. Its just that I've never been a big fan of shoving on combo draws. I hate the feeling when I have to get my whole stack (assuming its 100bb) in like that. Is it just me? I also hate it when he three bets it there after I raise him. That's another spot where I can get lost, assuming it was a sizable reraise giving poor odds. Against a TAG or dumb set miner, it's right to just fold and move on right? Against a LAG, maybe I would consider pushing all in. Would shoving still be correct?
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Feb 6, 2007 09:56
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jhu1e posted:I would definitely take a shot with a raise somewhere on a hand like that, but I would hate to end up with my whole stack in the middle on the flop. I'm not in the trap where I'm too scared of losing money anymore, but I always feel stupid when he turns over the set or w/e and the draw whiffs. Here's a way to consider this type of hand that should lower your reluctance to raise the flop. When you called the flop, were you planning on calling another bet on a non-spade non-A non-T turn? If so, raise the flop. You will gain folding equity, as well as improving the likelihood of a free river (perhaps for less than it would have cost to call both streets). Also, if he calls and you do hit the TP or flush, he will be less likely to put you on that hand and thus you might extract more value than had you called and only started raising once an obvious draw hit.
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Feb 6, 2007 10:34
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jhu1e posted:My read on players who make 3/4ish pot-sized bets like that is either a pair that's vulnerable (like 77), or a semibluff. I would definitely take a shot with a raise somewhere on a hand like that, but I would hate to end up with my whole stack in the middle on the flop. I'm not in the trap where I'm too scared of losing money anymore, but I always feel stupid when he turns over the set or w/e and the draw whiffs. I would definitely raise on flops like that to mix up my play and stay aggressive, and sometimes I float because its really fun. Its just that I've never been a big fan of shoving on combo draws. I hate the feeling when I have to get my whole stack (assuming its 100bb) in like that. Is it just me? Usually when you have a combo draw, the only thing you don't want to see him turn over is a set. My default when I have a combo draw is pot pot pot pot, especially if I think my opponent can lay down top pair to a lot of action; if you know you're going to be in a coinflip or better 85% of the time and he will fold like 50% of those times with a lot of dead money in the pot, then it's pretty clear that playing your draws fast is +EV. It can be more +EV to just call if a) you know what your opponent has or b) some of your draws are really well disguised (OESFD). I'm not going to lie to you though; it is a high variance line and really sucks when you lose 5 or so in a row, but it's almost always the best line IMO.
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Feb 6, 2007 11:32
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I have issues with maximum extraction... http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTHwsTFxcDFwMTExcfAzIjFxsPFwMY%3d I was going for a check raise on the river, and i thought i was gonna get someone to bet out, based on the turn action. Plus both the villians are very aggro against as i have sat down and started just attacking the table with reraises... think a bet out on the river.. like 3ish dollars would of been called by one of them? I dont think my hand is dominated in any shape by these two ranges and how they played it, but thats always a reason to check the river. Critique? I need help learning how to extract maximum with my made hands.
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Feb 6, 2007 12:50
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ZoWnX posted:I have issues with maximum extraction... I raise preflop 4 handed. Bet the turn, checking doesn't build a pot, it will ruin you when it gets checked through and another heart comes on the river.
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Feb 6, 2007 12:56
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How often does someone get a Royal Flush? And how often do they get paid off when it hits? Google says the odds are 1:649,750 This is the time it went perfectly and I got paid off. I just wish it was higher than NL25. 380BB. I guess I should have said something more than 'weeeee' but I'd been downing glasses of water pretty heavily up until then. Wonder if I'll ever see a hand like that again. But anyway - how did I play this hand? He's got an over pair right? He'd been pretty tight and very aggressive with anything he saw the flop with. I felt that I should call if there were two diamonds there.
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Feb 6, 2007 15:18
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starkebn posted:How often does someone get a Royal Flush? And how often do they get paid off when it hits? Shorthanded if he's really TAG I fold ATs to a UTG raise in bad relative position. If you had two callers or something between you then I would call. As it is, the minraise is probably the worst line to take. You aren't really showing any real strength so he's probably not folding, you're just getting him to put more money in with, most likely, a better hand than yours. You're also chasing out more people preflop in a hand where more than likely you're going to want a lot of people and a big pot (ATs can play good headsup too but not against a TAG UTG raiser generally) I almost certainly fold to the big 3-bet out of position with an easily dominated hand preflop. As for postflop, that's pretty read-dependent. I mean, his line doesn't really represent one consistent thing to me. It seems like an overpair would bet small, hoping you would raise or call with a ten or smaller overpair. This is a bet that seems to not want to be called, so on the surface it really looks like unimproved high cards. I think what you have to ask yourself is if he's playing on the 2nd level where he's taking this line because it looks weak because it's too strong, if that makes sense. That is, if he knows that you know that it wouldn't make any sense to play an overpair this way he might play it exactly this way. Basically if he's a complete fish or a pretty good player who is getting tricky he might have an overpair, if he seems just OK I would assume he probably has unimproved high cards of some sort. Alternately, he could have an easily beaten pair like JJ-QQ where he doesn't want you to call because if an overcard comes he doesn't know where he stands.
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Feb 6, 2007 17:06
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starkebn posted:Google says the odds are 1:649,750 Those are the odds of a getting a royal in a 5 card hand, basically the odds of hitting a royal on the flop. With 7 cards the odds are 1 in 30,940 I believe. I agree with Prodan's hand analysis on the second hand, except I'm erring on the side of the guy most likely having JJ-QQ rather than unimproved overcards if he's a TAG. Preflop is a fold all day, especially after the 4 bet. Your 3-bet preflop is kinda gross and as Prodan says counter productive. Flop fold I agree with but I'm like the weak-tightest player in the history of poker so who knows.
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Feb 6, 2007 17:36
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Speak of the devil:
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Feb 6, 2007 18:49
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Is there a royal flush bonus? Doing anything but check/calling may be -EV with them depending on stakes.
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Feb 6, 2007 20:17
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http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTHw8TFxcbNwcTExMDEzYjFxsPBxsI%3d I'm Naru420, and though it does not show, I'm holding KQo (neither is a heart). My question: what to do on that flop? I raised fairly big ($1) preflop to try to thin out some people, but got way more action then I wanted. Can I take a strong lead at that flop? K9 is easily possible with that many people and of course AK is possible, though I think AK would have reraised preflop. Still, one of the later callers could easily have AK and been scared to reraise. After the short stack all-in, more and more calls. I called and planned to lead a non-heart, non-ace turn. ... and then that came and I didn't lead. The pot was huge, and any raise would have meant going all-in. Anyways, after there its a mess. But what can I do before that? As a note, I don't think limping KQo is good here, or folding preflop. Its too strong not to play, and usually a raise to $1 seems to cut it down to 1, 2, or at the very most 3 people coming to the flop with me.
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Feb 6, 2007 20:50
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