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Spechel EDD posted:Why do you give him a free card on the turn after repopping the flop? Well, I have to balance the times I raise with a draw on the flop and check behind on turn somehow. This, I figured, was a good place for that: It's likely wa/wb since I would expect a raise from an aggressive opponent out of position if he had a draw. It's somewhat arguable, I guess, but I would argue for my line.  I chose the preflop line because I want AA in my call range, and I was hoping for a squeeze behind me. A squeeze and a re-squeeze from the HJ would've been swell (but pretty unlikely)! Originally I had some doubts about the river push, but the more I think about it the more I like it. It's pretty clear he's stuck with a medium/bluff-stopper hand, so intuitively it feels pretty good to give him something to stop. It's a situation where the betsize can be pretty drat big (the only reason to make it smaller would be to try and get a call out of a type of hand that I put him on). Also, going all-in eliminates the risk to be pushed all-in. The 8 was a somewhat bad card, because I have a few hands to balance the bluffs with already: 76dd, 76hh, 76ss. Oh, and he had JJ.
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Mar 25, 2007 17:04
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I don't like your river push here at all, barring a specific read. If the guy is suspicious of big river bets and likes to snap off what he thinks is a bluff, I can see it. Otherwise, you're losing value here most of the time, and setting yourself up for a big loss when you're behind. Given how it was played, a river bet is in order; I just don't like it being a push. You're going to get paid much more often here with a smaller bet. The way the villain played it, he's planning to check-call any reasonable bet on the river. He bet the flop, got raised, called, checked the turn, and checked the river. You could easily be on a draw, and he probably has a hand that he can't bet at the river. He's looking to snap off your bluff. You have him pegged as a decent player, so you've gotta give him this much credit. Some people are more likely to call a push here. If that's what your read was and you were using that, bravo. If not, well, it worked out this time. In the long run, making a more callable bet will get your opponent to call more often with less. That said, always watch and take notes on the willingness of an opponent to snap off a bluff. I generally have a line of notes for A) what he called with as a bluff catcher and B) how big the bet was in relation to the pot. This, of course, applies to any call that was clearly made as a bluff catcher, whether his opponent was bluffing or not. This kind of info comes up huge on the river.
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Mar 26, 2007 15:51
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The line is fine as long as you play Ax clubs the same way, which you probably do. A lot of people will instantly put you on a missed draw with that line.
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Mar 26, 2007 16:05
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What stakes does this hand pertain to? I think a pot bet or something of that size would of worked better than a push here. Unless you know for sure that he will call your push, a pot bet on the river looks fishy enough for people who bet their missed draws or who have missed and hit nothing. I def don't like the push though. This is 6max btw, correct?
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Mar 26, 2007 17:53
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souLjah posted:What stakes does this hand pertain to? I think a pot bet or something of that size would of worked better than a push here. Unless you know for sure that he will call your push, a pot bet on the river looks fishy enough for people who bet their missed draws or who have missed and hit nothing. I def don't like the push though. This is 6max btw, correct? 10/20 4-handed.
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Mar 26, 2007 18:31
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The size of the pot in relation to the stack behind makes a pot-sized bet fairly silly. Anything from a little over half the pot to a push becomes moot with what's in here. Still, you could do it just to see if you get a call out of curiosity or confusion. At this level, though, it's unlikely to matter much. The way the hand was played, half or an overbet is the only thing that makes sense, and a half-pot bet (or thereabouts, anyway) is most likely to get called. Whether it'll get called while ahead often enough to be a better EV move than a push is dependent on your opponents tendencies and your play. Like I said, I favor the smaller bet by default, but with a read, the push can clearly be better. Even without one, it's not necessarily a terrible play. I just think you're losing some value here when you're good, given the circumstances. He's gotta be pretty confident you're bluffing to try to pick you off here, as far as the odds you're offering him. You give him 3:1, and he's calling regularly. I don't know what it is, but it seems like most solid players online have something against any bet that isn't at least two thirds of the pot. In high stakes live games, smaller bets (not minbets, or anything) are much, much more common, and don't seem to have this automatic stigma about them. Just an observation. Edit: Loveboat posted:Part of it because you can have a bigger bluff-frequency the bigger bets you make. Half-pot bluffs work often enough in high stakes live games. AmnesiaLab fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Mar 28, 2007 |
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Mar 27, 2007 17:02
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AmnesiaLab posted:I don't know what it is, but it seems like most solid players online have something against any bet that isn't at least two thirds of the pot. In high stakes live games, smaller bets (not minbets, or anything) are much, much more common, and don't seem to have this automatic stigma about them. Just an observation. Part of it because you can have a bigger bluff-frequency the bigger bets you make.
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Mar 27, 2007 18:27
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xpost from 2+2 villain is a habitual floater in position, in like the worst spots. he's been cbetting the same amount on lots of flops so his range is still pretty wide after the flop bet. i couldn't recall seeing him minraise before so i don't really know what kind of hand strength minraise is. he typically vbets pretty hard but obv is also capable of vbetting small. flop and turn are pretty standard i think. i was obv gonna c/f the river but he bet like 1/3 pot so i decided cram time. like/dislike? 100 bb effective Villain posts small blind $10 Hero posts big blind $20 Dealt to Hero [ 7  9 ]Villain raises to $50 Hero calls $30 FLOP [ 9  K 8 ] Pot: $100Hero checks Villain bets $77 Hero calls $77 TURN [ T  ] Pot: $253Hero bets $175 Villain raises to $350 Hero calls $175 RIVER [ 3 ] Pot: $953Hero checks Villain bets $300 Hero shoves for $1224 more
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Mar 28, 2007 01:34
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What do you expect him to fold that you don't already beat? If you think the river bet means he's weak, a call looks a lot better than a shove.
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Mar 28, 2007 04:26
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I think the mistake is not knowing what his minraise on the turn represents, so we kind of have to give him a wide range. I think the worst hand he plays this way is KJ (maybe JT or T7). This is just going by my experience of how people play AK/KQ+ (what normal cake villians consider strong hands) in spots like this. In general I don't see smallish bets like that on the river with those types of hands. If KJ is the worst he plays this way, I don't think a shove is going to be +ev the majority of the time. You just aren't folding out enough hands that are better than your 9 and you are good against bluffs/busted draws anyway.
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Mar 28, 2007 04:52
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coiol posted:What do you expect him to fold that you don't already beat? edit: nevermind Loveboat fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Mar 28, 2007 |
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Mar 28, 2007 06:07
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Are you trying to rep 76 here? He's definitely got a king and I dont see him folding here enough.
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Mar 28, 2007 06:58
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Strong Sauce posted:Playing with about 350 euros behind at 1/2PL, I cover both players involved in this hand. I am one off the button and a blind bet has been placed so it is 4 euro to call. 4 limpers to me, I limp with A6o, Button limps SB/BB all come along. Everyone comes along in a huge family pot. Since no one replied I thought I would post again. I would really like opinions on what to do.
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Mar 28, 2007 15:21
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Strong Sauce posted:Since no one replied I thought I would post again. I would really like opinions on what to do. Do you have any read on the guy to your right? You are stuck in the middle of a reraise sandwich and without a proper read you stand to lose a ton. Even if you feel you are ahead of one or both of them, if you call you are pretty much pot committed to play the whole thing out. Without any sort of read, you probably have to assume at this point one of them could have played aces or queens poorly preflop, or could have sixes or ace/queen. It could also be a bluff, but really its not worth it to call off most of your chips to see with another player left to act. My gut tells me one of them has you beat. I would fold and hope to see a show down so you can take notes on what each of them had and how they played. That would be more profitable in the long run if you will be playing them for a while, i think.
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Mar 28, 2007 16:22
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Limping A6o preflop is bad, just dont do it. As it is though, fold the flop. 66 is unlikely but it is definitely not unusual for some live donk to "slowplay" aces preflop, not to mention completing AQo in the SB with so many limpers is probably better than raising it most of the time.
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Mar 28, 2007 16:24
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yeah I think you're likely beat, sauce. and in response to replies to my hand: yeah i think the bluff sucks. i think i sort of did it spur of the moment as i WAS planning on c/folding until he bet so small so that i took it as either a thin value bet (most of the time) or bluff (much much less of the time). hence the c/r. i still don't think its that bad, since he has to fold less than 1/2 the time for it to be profitable. fwiw i still think fold > push > call. call sucks big time.
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Mar 28, 2007 17:00
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Pizzlefish posted:Do you have any read on the guy to your right? No read. But I don't believe it to be a bluff. deaders posted:Limping A6o preflop is bad, just dont do it. As it is though, fold the flop. 66 is unlikely but it is definitely not unusual for some live donk to "slowplay" aces preflop, not to mention completing AQo in the SB with so many limpers is probably better than raising it most of the time. I am one off the button with everyone calling the blind 4 euro bet in front of me. Can you possibly say this is a fold? I call 4 to essentially try and win about 24 euros in front of me and an additional 12 euros if the button/SB/BB also call. I have almost zero fear of any of those three raising without a big hand. Raising is absurd but I can't imagine folding this preflop. If there were only a few limpers or so in front of me I would not have played this hand but the fact that everyone in front of me had limped made me feel like this is an easy call. Please comment on whether this is a leak. The flop is essentially what I wanted with my hand. I wasn't that scared of the SB but LP suddenly wakes up and reraises a checkraiser which is a pretty strong move. So now I'm in a position where I believe I have the best hand to beat one person but probably not against two. I don't believe either one of them has AA/QQ here (like i said maybe 5% chance) mainly because either one of them would have raised preflop given the amount of limpers. I can't imagine the SB playing AA/QQ this way because he is facing so many limpers and the LP player should know it's probably unlikely anyone left to act (me, the button and the blinds) would be raising here. If someone in EP made this raise instead of the SB I might have read it for that and be willing to give them credit for that hand but the fact that it was the SB and LP player doing the raising led me to believe neither of them have AA/QQ.
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Mar 28, 2007 17:10
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Strong Sauce posted:No read. But I don't believe it to be a bluff. If it isn't a bluff, what could it be that you have beat? That is a very aggressive semi-bluff play for ace/king or ace/jack. Queen/6 is the only pure non-bluff that you beat.
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Mar 28, 2007 18:07
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quote:I am one off the button with everyone calling the blind 4 euro bet in front of me. Can you possibly say this is a fold? I call 4 to essentially try and win about 24 euros in front of me and an additional 12 euros if the button/SB/BB also call. I have almost zero fear of any of those three raising without a big hand. Raising is absurd but I can't imagine folding this preflop. If there were only a few limpers or so in front of me I would not have played this hand but the fact that everyone in front of me had limped made me feel like this is an easy call. Please comment on whether this is a leak. Opponent Info: You have the first guy beat, and most likely have the second guy beat (it's possible due to his lack of pre-flop raise that he has a pocket pair of 6's). How I would act: Push all-in as soon as the pot went over 200. BRB MAKIN BACON fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Mar 28, 2007 |
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Mar 28, 2007 23:10
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Grand Duke Ian posted:In my opinion, I agree with your decision to limp. As a rule of thumb, unless 1) a few people have called the big blind with no raise or 2) I have a monster, I never raise out of the blinds. One of the key steps I did to improve my game was realize that just because there's a big ole' "A" smiling at me from my hand, I can't raise everytime. A-6 is not a raising hand. A-9 or A-10 perhaps, but A-6 in your position is the right move by my count. You had the right pot odds and the right cards to justify what you did. In your situation, once the pot went over 200 I would just close my eye's and push it all in. Rule #2 Your gut is correct more often than you would think. You clearly pointed out that if either of them had AQ they would've raised. The only thing that would scare me away is the possible straight draw (but if they had K-J they probably would've raised) or a possible flush draw. Given that the board is set up so that neither a straight or a flush is likely, I would have to conclude: A6o in a multiway limped pot? Ick. Your most likely hand is going to be an expensive 2nd or 3rd best hand. Just dump it.
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Mar 28, 2007 23:49
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re: the A6o - are you guys forgetting that you see like 10 hands an hour live? A6o is a monster. pre flop isn't a big deal in the hand at all. quick question on this hand: anyone shove river or just call? i meant to bet $540 not $54 haha. http://www.pokerhand.org/?946478
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Mar 29, 2007 00:22
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Call. With that much behind on a paired board without even the nut flush, shoving is potentially big trouble. I'd take what's in the pot and be happy with it. There's no guarantee a smaller flush will call the shove, anyway.
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Mar 29, 2007 10:36
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Just call for sure. It would have been a lot worse if you did bet $540 and he raised, so maybe the misclick was good?
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Mar 29, 2007 14:20
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is this a good fold? i had A4 http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTMzMTFxcDDwcTExMLAx4jFzMXHwsY%3d
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Mar 29, 2007 23:04
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sdfsdf posted:is this a good fold? i had A4 no. he has 1 psb left, you have two pair, a ton of his range is hands you are ahead of, etc. protip: dont make a habit of making big folds on cake.
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Mar 29, 2007 23:35
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re the A6 thing. Sure your pot odds are great, but your reverse implied odds are horrible. Look at this hand for example - you hit the next best hand you could hope for after 2 sixes on the flop and its still a bad situation for you.
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Mar 30, 2007 03:27
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All hands are against the same villain. He's a 50NL/100NL 8-tabling reg on UB and a SSNL poster on 2p2. He's quite tight at 15/11/3 with a 21% attempt to steal frequency over >2k hands. I have gotten my money in about even against him overall, though he's up a few buy ins due to draws hitting/suckouts and has gotten the better of me recently. He floats in position, squeezes often when a table gets short, and can play one hand while holding another. He doesn't usually 3-bet me in position without a hand though, seeming to prefer playing smaller pots in position. http://www.pokerhand.org/?951418 Do we felt TPTK here? http://www.pokerhand.org/?951430 I got a couple of timing tells on this hand. Both the flop and turn were near insta-calls, and the river bet was almost instant. It certainly looks like missed diamonds, but he usually doesn't play this transparently. Pot sized insta-bets on the river also seem to almost never be bluffs. In retrospect I know what I think of the call, but I wanted to see what other people thought. http://www.pokerhand.org/?951475 This hand was relatively early in our history. On this hand I was trying to rep diamonds, and the original plan was to C/C the flop and turn and push the river. I changed my plan because his bet size and timing led me to believe he had an over pair, and was likely to call. What do you think of the original plan/line? I was going to post one more hand, but Tracker missed it due to UB being a steaming pile of poo poo. I'll do my best to describe it anyway. 4-handed, 100BB stacks (may have been deeper, I'm not sure). Hero is on the button with 44. 1 fold, Hero raises to 1.75, SB calls 1.50, BB(Villain) raises to 7, Hero calls 5.25, SB folds. Pre-flop is pretty questionable, but despite his pre-flop numbers I think he is squeezing with a lot of poo poo here. I'm looking to either flop a set or push over his C-bet on a good board. If the SB calls then I have good enough odds to just play for a set. If he folds I will have to make moves to break even. Flop is 2, 5, 8, rainbow, pot is 15(I'm not sure if this was exactly it, but it was a brick yard for sure) Villain bets 15 (~28 left), Hero folds. So this is pretty much the flop I was looking for to push (his bet size is also significantly larger than usual for such a dry flop), but I pussed out and folded instead. What do you think of the hand overall, and a push specifically?
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Mar 30, 2007 20:00
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crackstar posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?951418 quote:http://www.pokerhand.org/?951430 If you want to play for stacks, CR the turn AI. I wouldn't do it here. Also, a good chunk of these turn instacalls have a four in them. quote:http://www.pokerhand.org/?951475 last hand = fold preflop, you don't have set odds, and SSNL regs don't run squeeze plays on unknows or for that matter ever.
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Mar 30, 2007 20:26
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I have a couple of similar hands I'd like to share. The first one I believe to be standard: http://www.pokerhand.org/?951620 My 4-bet preflop left the players with 71BB and 61BB in a 117BB pot. A heads up hand may have been a better result, but I am still glowing here. The next hand is a little different: http://www.pokerhand.org/?951637 I 3-bet preflop OOP, and then I overbet shoved 83BB into a 52BB pot with about equal stacks all around. This table was crazy, and these two players in particular would snap call with top pair (regardless of kicker) and most draws. My logic was that I'm going broke here anyway if anyone else bets, so I'd like to look desparate and shove before they can act. Any comments? Do you like or hate the second hand? Also, I don't understand why you can sometimes put only a partial hand into PokerHand like the first hand in this post, but other times it gives an invalid hand error. What's the trick? albedoa fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Mar 30, 2007 |
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Mar 30, 2007 20:47
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Adar posted:Either check/call or bet/fold the turn. From a 15/11, when he raises the turn you're drawing dead. I don't think his range is just sets, though they are definitely in there. We could be splitting or he could be floating with a draw, a smaller pair or AQ too. The fact that he's tight pre-flop doesn't mean that he doesn't make moves. Adar posted:last hand = fold preflop, you don't have set odds, and SSNL regs don't run squeeze plays on unknows or for that matter ever. I know that we probably don't have set odds heads up (we would have to make $25 on average with a 15$ pot on the flop), but the SB was a loosey that I was expecting to come along. If he does we're getting 3:1 and just about break even with a PSB when we hit. I'm also not an unknown, we have ~2k hands of history (you can't datamine UB as far as I know) and he likes to squeeze when the game gets short. Pre-flop I knew people would think was bad, but once we're on the total brick flop, what do you think of a push over his C-bet?
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Mar 30, 2007 21:15
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albedoa posted:First hand: I think you're good most of the time, but it sucks when someone shows up with "clever" kings or a set. albedoa posted:The next hand is a little different: The original raiser certainly looks like he has a Q, and I expect the overcaller to show a set or 2 hearts. Stack sizes are kind of awkward here. If you put in a PSB then you might as well shove since you won't be folding regardless of what comes, and the only other option seems to be to bet ~30, leaving a 1/2 pot bet (or less if both call) for the turn. Betting the smaller amount leaves your play potentially exploitable by draws, and given what you said about the table dynamics I like the push.
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Mar 30, 2007 21:31
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Adar posted:SSNL regs don't run squeeze plays on unknows or for that matter ever. Disagree... any real longterm winning ssnl reg will squeeze quite a lot, at least at 200nl. Nitty 15/11 types probably not though.
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Mar 31, 2007 03:51
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deaders posted:Disagree... any real longterm winning ssnl reg will squeeze quite a lot, at least at 200nl. Nitty 15/11 types probably not though. Adar is 2+2 
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Mar 31, 2007 03:56
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faarcyde posted:Adar is 2+2 what? so am I, just disagreeing with him on that point.
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Mar 31, 2007 08:01
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deaders posted:what? so am I, just disagreeing with him on that point. No, you don't understand. He is 2+2.
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Mar 31, 2007 14:23
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faarcyde posted:No, you don't understand. He is 2+2. Are you saying deader's opinion on the subject can't be different?
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Mar 31, 2007 16:57
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albedoa posted:Are you saying deader's opinion on the subject can't be different? No, I was trying to be funny, but failed miserably. Since you ask though, I don't think "any real longterm winning SSNL player" has to squeeze "a lot." The move is so popular these days no one believes you. A useful tool, yes. Necessary to be a winning player? No.
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Mar 31, 2007 19:09
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So anyway, results for the 4 hands I posted are as follows: Hand 1: Villain shows JQs hearts and pushed his pair+draw and hits on the river. He said he was surprised I called. Hand 2: Villain shows AQs hearts for TPTK and then backdoor flush. I got leveled hard, but like I said I think my river call was retarded, and probably the turn bet too. Hand 3: Results aren't really relevant for this one but he called with KK and hit a K on the river. I have since gotten him back with a nasty suckout of my own. Hand 4: He claimed 73o over AIM when I asked him what he squeezed with  . He swore on his mother that it was 73o.
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Mar 31, 2007 22:03
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Villain is loose-passive. He made a 1 /4 of the pot flop bluff earlier, which I c/r and he folded. He hasn’t tried to bluff me since, but has called a couple weak hands on the flop (both of which have been weaker than what I was C-betting with, including calling AJo OOP on an 886 flop). Hand #1090011454000598: Chelsea 11454 Seat 1: invno1 (18.00 in chips) Seat 2: ppooem7070 (6.10 in chips) Seat 3: mr.wolle (99.00 in chips) Seat 4: ducksauce (45.00 in chips) Seat 5: txpkrace (82.80 in chips) Seat 6: Monroow (123.00 in chips) Seat 7: *ZEKE* (29.45 in chips) Seat 8: Hero (114.30 in chips) Seat 9: Mills (136.40 in chips) Seat 10: PokerFan (74.50 in chips) Monroow: posts small blind $0.50 *ZEKE*: posts big blind $1 Dealt to Hero [ K K ]Hero: raises to $4 Mills: calls PokerFan: folds invno1: folds ppooem7070: folds mr.wolle: folds ducksauce: folds txpkrace: folds Monroow: calls *ZEKE*: folds *** FLOP *** [ K 3 J ]Monroow: checks Hero: bets $12 Mills: calls Monroow: folds *** TURN *** [ 4 ]Hero: checks Mills: checks *** RIVER *** [ 7 ]Hero: checks Mills: checks Should I have made a blocking bet on the turn and/or river? If he was bluffier I definitely should have on at least the turn, right?
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Apr 1, 2007 00:01
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TheKING posted:Villain is loose-passive. He made a 1 /4 of the pot flop bluff earlier, which I c/r and he folded. He hasn’t tried to bluff me since, but has called a couple weak hands on the flop (both of which have been weaker than what I was C-betting with, including calling AJo OOP on an 886 flop). Checking this down isn't horrible since he's probably going to call with any spade although sometimes this can also often be someone who hit the turn and is slowplaying with the A or Q I wish you hadn't shown the river action because otherwise I would think that this was the play. Loose passive players love to sandbag their made nut hands which is all the better for you since you can get a free card on the turn to draw to your full house and hopefully get paid off when you hit. There is no real point in making a blocking bet on the turn/river unless you think this player will fold anything lower than the 4 of spades. If he doesn't have a spade the only hand that beats you is 56 so almost all other hands will fold unless he cannot let go of two pair on a 4flush turn. Essentially I'm saying you're making players fold only when you beat them and raise/call when you are beaten. After that 4th card flush hits I'm pretty much done with the hand unless to lets me draw to my full house for cheap.
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Apr 1, 2007 05:25
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