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Not UNIX posted:I think this might have been a really stupid call, but at the time I thought the pot odds were in my favor. Was I way off base with my calls?
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Jul 21, 2007 06:13
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Not UNIX posted:I think this might have been a really stupid call, but at the time I thought the pot odds were in my favor. Was I way off base with my calls? UTG raises, you call with 89hh with 5 people to act behind you? Not to mention stack sizes/blinds, that hh is such an abortion I don't even want to try to read it. Either way, you want these hands on the button, not in MP. Also post these in the SNG/MTT Critique thread in the future. Morphius22000 fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jul 21, 2007 |
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Jul 21, 2007 06:16
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cricket eater joe posted:This is all completely standard right? The only questionable part is the small flop bet with an overpair, which I was trying to represent a missed continuation bet. Which is fine but you usually want to save it for rainbow unconnected boards. This flop was not good for you at all and you have to make them pay, not allow them to get good odds on their draws.
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Jul 21, 2007 18:25
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cricket eater joe posted:Seat 1: Klyph ($59.15) Unless I have something with showdown value like a straight or a low flush and I plan to check/call, I lead this river for around 15 with any two cards given the action in the hand, to stop him from bluffing which he should do with anything if you check here, and it would make it look like you played a strong draw very aggresively and get him to possibly lay down something like QQ or a set (which many people at these low limits will slowplay on a dangerous board all the way to the river). If you bet 15 you only need to take this down 1 every 3 times for it to be a good play and I think we win a good bit more often than that. You get raised, get out obiously, easy decision. You get called down, you get some valuable information on his in position play and you will probably get a good bit of action next time you play one of your monsters super-aggressively OOP.
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Jul 22, 2007 00:39
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If you bet $15 on the river everything > 1 pair will call and almost everything else will fold. His most likely hands are a flush, 2 pair, and a straight, in that order. I think betting river is just lighting money on fire.
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Jul 22, 2007 01:50
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I'm going to do this to the best of my memory/ability since it happened live. Royal Caribbean Casino, NL500 ($2/$5), 7-max, full table. UTG folds. I've got A  5 in UTG+1, and limp because the table has been very passive preflop as it has been all week. Fold, fold, button raises to $15, SB and BB fold. Button has been a solid player all week, your general TAG who gets a little frustrated with a few drinks in him, which he'd started up again today a few hours earlier.He didn't raise every button at all though so I gave him credit for a decent hand even if I knew he was "smart enough" to know what proper TAG play on the button is. I think for a bit and decide to call anyway, hoping for at least a semi-bluffing opportunity. I have like $105 behind, he has me well covered as he'd bought in for around $200 to my initial $115. Pot: $37 Flop J  2 5I check, he thinks for a bit, looks at his chips, and checks behind. Right here I have good reason to "put him on AK", as I've seen him hesitate to c-bet with air before. Pot: $37 Turn 9 I check, he bets $25. I think for about 30 seconds before I and call, feeling my pair is still good. This is probably the first part of my "mistake", if I did indeed make one, since if I really put him on air I should probably raise I guess...comments appreciated here and especially on the river. Pot: $87 River 7 I think for a few seconds and check. Since I'm a huge fish who's never played in a casino before, I "forget" to represent the flush, even though hindsight screams at me that I should have led out on this river. Button says "man...I can't bet this...I know you got that flush..." and checks behind. I tell him I put him on AQ as I turn over my A5, and he's like "good read" or something and turns over... K 7 for a pair of sevens and takes the pot.He said he had a lot of respect for me sticking with my read and that he sucked out, blah blah...I still feel sick about this hand because I kind of went into check-call mode a little too early, making up my mind after checking the turn not to bet the river if an A or 5 didn't hit but fully intending to call pretty much any reasonable bet on the river. Part of me wants to rationalize that I shouldn't bet anyway because I don't want to get raised or something, but the rest of me is posting this hand for some less biased advice! Should you basically represent that flush every time on the river, especially if your line thus far screams "I had a flush draw"? Jumpman16 fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Jul 24, 2007 |
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Jul 23, 2007 03:48
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This is from cake and I can't link without showing results, so I'll use the Knightmare converter. NLHE .10/.20 UTG: Hero 23.05 MP: 33.90 LP: 5.15 CO: 6.85 Button: 19.70 SB: 41.50 BB: 14.25 Hero dealt A  Q and raises to .80Folds to BB, BB calls Flop: [Q 4 3]Pot($1.60) BB checks, Hero bets $1.00, BB calls Turn: [Q 4 3][2]Pot($3.50) BB checks, Hero bets $2.50, BB calls River: [Q 4 3][2][3]Pot($7.50) BB checks, Hero ? This is an occasional situation where I'm kind of lost on how to proceed. My first thought is missed flush draw, and I sometimes check behind as even if I bet the BB wouldn't call on a whiffed flush draw. Another reason why I don't like to bet here is if I was being slowplayed, and with the second 3 I could see the villain hoping to check/raise the river here. Is it standard to check behind here or am I missing value somewhere? How were my bets?
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Jul 23, 2007 14:11
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I'd bet a little bit more on every street, but I think it's OK. I like c/c the river or a 2/3 psb for value. I expect you'd see a dinky Queen here or a missed FD a majority of the time. Oops, you are in position, BET! OOP, as mentioned, sometimes a c/c if you think he was on FD and might bluff at the pot. voltron fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jul 23, 2007 |
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Jul 23, 2007 20:45
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Knightmare: You are missing a ton of value if you habitually check through here. This is a weak queen or possibly a mid pair like 99-55 or 54s if they are brave trying to get a cheap showdown. I've seen even ace high call a bet here too many times. The river check is just one more sign of weakness. You shouldn't be afraid until he actually raises you, which won't be nearly as often as you assume. You beat so many hands that will call a bet. Also, the amount of time it takes him to check on the river can be a clue, though it usually doesn't affect my decision to bet because sometimes people think about betting the scare card but chicken out, and others just know that taking a long time before checking can induce a check from you. Just bet. 
albedoa fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jul 23, 2007 |
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Jul 23, 2007 21:23
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Jumpman16 posted:I'm going to do this to the best of my memory/ability since it happened live. Royal Caribbean Casino, NL500 ($2/$5), 7-max, full table. Don't post results. Also, you really shouldn't be playing hands like A5s when you're so shortstacked. You just don't have the implied odds to play the hand, especially when you're in early position. When you get to the flop, check/call and lead the turn is a good line. So is check/raising the flop. The important thing is to get your opponent out of the hand early with a very vulnerable hand. Once he checks through the flop you need to bet out on the turn. You're ahead 90% of the time here and you don't want to let him get a free card.
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Jul 24, 2007 01:59
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blah_blah posted:If you bet $15 on the river everything > 1 pair will call and almost everything else will fold. His most likely hands are a flush, 2 pair, and a straight, in that order. I think betting river is just lighting money on fire. Checking this river is lighting money on fire because villain bets this river 100% of the time, and c/cing here is a horrible play. A c/r may be a good play on this dangerous board, but a simple blocking bet is the safest play, considering how easy this river is to bluff in position, and it only needs to work once every 3 times to be break even. And please elaborate on how you came to such a narrow conclusion that his most likely hands are a flush, 2 pair, and a straight, in that order. What kind of villain value bets 2 pair on this board? Villain would check this down for the showdown value of his hand, not bet out here, although hero wouldn't know that if he had taken the action I recommended. Villain's river bet is either a flush, straight, or air, and I'm inclined to believe he has air more than 1/3 times, making the blocking bet profitable if air and 1 pair (possibly 2 pair) will fold here. M E A T Y fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jul 24, 2007 |
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Jul 24, 2007 04:22
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spoonce posted:Checking this river is lighting money on fire because villain bets this river 100% of the time, and c/cing here is a horrible play. A c/r may be a good play on this dangerous board, but a simple blocking bet is the safest play, considering how easy this river is to bluff in position, and it only needs to work once every 3 times to be break even. I really don't think you have a clue on how to do the correct math to see whether a blocking bet is -EV,+EV, or neutral EV. Moreover your typical NL50 player is passive, doesn't bet (esp pot) the river anywhere near 100% of the time, and has a better hand than you a ton of the time when they bet river. I am saying that c/f is better than c/c here btw, but both are better than a blocking bet, and c/r is incredibly bad. Honestly I think that the majority of villains hands are combo draws, flush draws, and smallish two pairs on the turn, with the occasional straight and the occasional A8 or 89 or whatever thrown in. This range crushes JJ when the river comes a 6s so hero should just give up most of the time. making a blocking bet is just asking to get outplayed and when you blocking bet the river and get called, you are losing a huge amount of the time which makes it -EV since villains at this level don't bluff enough to make it worthwhile. A blocking bet might actually have some merit if villains ever fold 2p+ (really it would be more of a two way bet then), but think of what equity 2p has against a typical UTG raising range here (hint: it's huge). Moreover villain will not typically bet a showdownable hand of medium strength that you beat like A8, 89, so you don't need to blocking bet to protect against these hands outplaying you.
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Jul 24, 2007 07:53
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?1294578 Im pretty new to poker and I've been playing 0.01/0.02 NL I'd been stealing pots pretty frequently this game and I had alot of people who seemed to just me calling me out of spite which is frighteningly common at the limits i've been playing. That combined with the flop being so unconnected was my reasoning behind calling the all-in. Looking at the hand im pretty sure I didnt play it very well but can I get a better player's opinion. E: Oops i left part of the summary in it sorry im not very good at this 
Isaac fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jul 24, 2007 |
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Jul 24, 2007 09:09
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Isaac hand ^^ PF. I would 3-bet to $0.12 Your flop minraise is awful. Do you really think hes going to fold to you with any queen there? And then he even minraises you back. I guess once you call that minreraise youre stuck on the turn with that Ace out. Pray that he doesnt have a set or AQ.
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Jul 24, 2007 09:25
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The JJ hand with the $3 fake-weak continuation bet. Just play this hand normally. Even more so as both of your jacks are not the spade. C-bet 3/4s-2/3s pot. Turn same. River is player dependant and I'd probably 1/2 pot it or full pot it depending on what kinda player it is. I might even checkfold but its strictly dependent on reads there.
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Jul 24, 2007 09:28
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Isaac posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?1294578 Raise preflop, you have a very strong hand. 3-bet and pop it to $.12 after the minraise, take initiative in the hand! On the flop your minraise is silly, you have a ton of people limping into the hand and you are most likely behind here. They can have literally anything and your minraise is spew. Turn call is fine with TPTK, especially at these levels, just hope they don't have 2 pair or better. In conclusion: Raise preflop, it makes the hand a lot easier to play. If people are spite calling you, make them pay you off for being stupid by getting their money in behind.
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Jul 24, 2007 09:34
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Here's a cute hand. I leave the results in there because I'm less interested in what I did and more in what the villain did. The villain has a tight-passive image. VPIP between 20% and 25%, PFR less than 2%. The river push from someone who rarely raises caught me completely by surprise here. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: Something Awful) CO ($7.48) Button ($6.67) SB ($1.90) BB ($3.93) UTG ($5.41) UTG+1 ($3.95) Hero ($5.18) MP2 ($5.23) Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4 , 4 . UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, 3 folds, BB checks. Flop: ($0.22) 4 , J , Q (4 players)BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.15, MP2 folds, BB folds, UTG calls $0.15. Turn: ($0.52) J (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.3, UTG calls $0.30. River: ($1.12) 8 (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG raises to $4.91, Hero calls $3.68 (All-In). Final Pot: $10.48 Results below: UTG has Ks As (one pair, jacks). Hero has 4d 4c (full house, fours full of jacks). Outcome: Hero wins $10.48. UTG wins $0.23. Pushing the river after the missed draw looks very -EV here because he risks $3.68 to win $2.12 giving him very bad odds. Furthermore the river looked like a complete blank for me (maybe he tried to represent the T9 straight and didn't think I can beat that). I was way more worried about him slowplaying QQ (or possibly QJ even though that's probably outside the range of 20/25% VPIP from UTG). My question is, what situations are there where you can profitably push the river in a hand like that? Would you guys have pushed the river with AK if the 3rd J or the 2nd Q comes? Would you have pushed with the 3rd J/2nd Q in a bigger pot with odds like 3-1 or 4-1? That looks profitable because there's a good chance that I'd fold the low full house here. On the other hand 444JJ is a pretty unlikely hand too and me having a Q or J is more likely. And someone with Q or J probably doesn't fold to a river push here. Alan Greenspan fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jul 24, 2007 |
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Jul 24, 2007 10:26
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He might've put you on a J or Q and tried to scare you when the 3rd flush came out. He had a straight and overs and when nothing hit I guess he tried to make a move. At these limits when someone does hit a flush they'll usually lead out or outright push though, the check/raise in this situation never scares me. Even if he had QQ he would've lead out on the river.
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Jul 24, 2007 10:31
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Xyven posted:Don't post results. Also, you really shouldn't be playing hands like A5s when you're so shortstacked. You just don't have the implied odds to play the hand, especially when you're in early position. Oops, forgot about the results thing, spoilering that now. As far as playing A5s shortstacked goes...I'm not at all trying to be defensive, but pretty much everyone had $90-120 behind but two people. And also, as I said, pretty much everyone was limping preflop and had been all week, even UTG, and not getting raised preflop. When I play online I always buy in for the max so the implied odds are always as high as possible and would never dream of playing a marginal hand like that in such early position, but nobody on the cruise ever bought in for more than $250 tops and limping was evidently such a safe option. Again, just trying to outline my reasoning and not just be defensive. I realize that it's more a question of how much the villain has behind him, but isn't it a question of rather wanting to be covered, my $115 to his $200, than to have the villain covered, like my $115 to his like $60 or something? If I am being stupid about this concept please call me on it. My decision would be different if the button had only $60 behind and raised to $15, indicating I should just fold preflop and lose the limped $5, etc... As for the rest of the hand, I agree, thanks. Hand's vulnerable so I should bet and not let his "AQ" draw out for free, as it doesn't matter if I feel my small pair is good on the flop.
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Jul 24, 2007 13:52
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Local tournament, 5 at the table probably about to be moved, blinds are 500/1000. Button: 4-5k SB:15-16k BB(me):15k UTG: 1.5k UTG+1: 18-19k UTG raises all in pre-flop. Calls around to me in BB with pocket aces. I reraise to 5.5k. Everyone calls but the button. Flop is 6 65 SB checks, I push for my remaining 9.5k. Everyone calls. UTG has A3, UTG+1 has 6 7, SB never shows.Turn is a 3 , River is a 6.I'm thinking I didn't raise enough pre-flop making it enticing to call. Is there anything else I could have done better in this hand?
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Jul 24, 2007 14:50
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Since everyone called the pot was pretty big and your raise still gave a lot of people odds to call. Since a larger raise wouldn't really leave you with much chips on the flop I think I'd probably shove. If someone else calls you should still be good but even if no one does it's a 8k boost to your stack. Also there's a SNG/MTT critique thread where you should have put this in the first place.
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Jul 24, 2007 15:08
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threefive posted:Local tournament, 5 at the table probably about to be moved, blinds are 500/1000. uhh, if it's 5-handed, one guy goes all in and 3 callers, just push it in PF, you don't need to entice them in, you don't want to see a flop multiway and if one of them likes their hand enough, they'll join you for the all-in ride. even if they all fold to your allin, the pot is approx 1/3 of your stack and would be a nice boost if you won. that said, you got unlucky. i don't understand utg+1 calling off a 1/4 of his stack with
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Jul 24, 2007 18:10
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Knightmare posted:Since everyone called the pot was pretty big and your raise still gave a lot of people odds to call. Since a larger raise wouldn't really leave you with much chips on the flop I think I'd probably shove. If someone else calls you should still be good but even if no one does it's a 8k boost to your stack. Also there's a SNG/MTT critique thread where you should have put this in the first place. Sorry, didn't see that thread. Yeah I really should have shoved, but when making the raise I didn't pay attention to the pot size, so it really was my fault all together.
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Jul 24, 2007 21:24
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blah_blah posted:I really don't think you have a clue on how to do the correct math to see whether a blocking bet is -EV,+EV, or neutral EV. Moreover your typical NL50 player is passive, doesn't bet (esp pot) the river anywhere near 100% of the time, and has a better hand than you a ton of the time when they bet river. I am saying that c/f is better than c/c here btw, but both are better than a blocking bet, and c/r is incredibly bad. If you ever make a half-pot bet on the river and get a fold more than 1/3 times it has a positive EV, that is very basic math right there. The range that you put the villain on here is typical FGators weak-tight small stakes thinking. Your typical NL50 player will not be smart enough to bluff this river 100% of the time, but the typical NL50 player is dumb enough to call down to the river with KQ (for example), see blatant weakness and take a stab at it. You make yourself play weak-tight by assuming that the villain is too dumb to bluff this river, but not too dumb to call down without 2 pair or a combo draw. Very simple river bet to see where you are after leading out the entire hand, and once again, if it wins 1/3 it is +EV.
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Jul 25, 2007 00:39
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spoonce posted:If you ever make a half-pot bet on the river and get a fold more than 1/3 times it has a positive EV, that is very basic math right there. lets say villain's range is 50% hands that beat you and 50% hands that lose to you, and that you are debating a blocking bet or c/folding the river. If villain calls with the top 60% of his range and folds the bottom 40%, a you win $27 40% of the time you win $42 10% of the time you lose $15 50% of the time which makes your EV for the blocking bet $7.50. If villain checks behind river with a worse hand 100% of the time, then the EV of c/folding river is $12.50 Obviously I have the freedom to make the numbers whatever I want here and you are correct that villain will bluff river with worse hands some nonzero % of the time - if he bluffs with worse hands 33% of the time, the EV of c/folding river drops to $9, so it still beats the blocking bet. The equilibrium point here is when villain bluffs the river 4/9ths of the time fwiw. In all honesty I just noted the second flush draw on the hand, so there are definitely a couple of missed draws to bluff and villains range doesn't figure to be quite as strong as I initially though, but I still believe that villains range has at least 50% equity against JJ there and that villain def bluffs missed draws/random bullshit on river less than 50% of the time, which means that c/f is a superior line.
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Jul 25, 2007 01:10
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Please critique this hand for me. I think I should have bet more on the turn. http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/default.aspx?Hand=xcbEwsTFxcDGxcTExcfDwYjFwsTMwsA%3d DaGr8Gatzby A9c
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Jul 26, 2007 15:32
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DaGr8Gatzby posted:Please critique this hand for me. Link fixed for ya'. Things I liked: The preflop raise - It's a tad on the loose side, but I like it. The turn call - This is up for debate, but I actually like this. If he's bluffing or has one pair, you might get another bet out of him on the river, where he's likely to fold to a raise. Even if he has two pair, raising might slow him down, where you want him to be firing again (depends on the player). It's sad that he hit a boat there, but I think slowplaying will get you more value longterm. Things I'm unsure of: I'm not sure if it's better to push or call the river bet, but I'm inclined to think the push is good. You'll still get called by trip 8s, weaker flushes or some idiots with Ks, so there's value. Things I didn't like: The flop check - I think this should be a standard C-bet with any two cards. You have a nice draw, but at the moment it's still A-high, and I'd be happy to take it there.
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Jul 26, 2007 16:29
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Cbet the flop, river push is fine, you get paid by like any 8 because it's cake.
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Jul 26, 2007 16:37
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yeah bet every street and b/3b the flop or turn if you can.
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Jul 26, 2007 19:34
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Broken record, c-bet the flop because you have overs + FD. Everything else is fine.
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Jul 26, 2007 20:12
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Knightmare posted:He might've put you on a J or Q and tried to scare you when the 3rd flush came out. He had a straight and overs and when nothing hit I guess he tried to make a move. At these limits when someone does hit a flush they'll usually lead out or outright push though, the check/raise in this situation never scares me. Even if he had QQ he would've lead out on the river.
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Jul 26, 2007 21:29
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This was my third hand at the table. I had no reads on anyone else and my image is completely normal at this point. http://www.pokerhand.org/?1309699 I have a feeling that POVPaul may have been floating. Was my play throughout this hand correct? perfmode fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jul 28, 2007 |
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Jul 28, 2007 19:37
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Bet pot on the flop, bet flop on the turn, fold river. Also why would you think he's floating you OOP and when he check/calls two streets. Do you even know what floating is?
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Jul 28, 2007 22:11
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Xyven posted:Bet pot on the flop, bet flop on the turn, fold river. Also why would you think he's floating you OOP and when he check/calls two streets. Do you even know what floating is? To my understanding, floating is calling with a marginal hand with the intention of stealing the pot when given the chance. Am I wrong? I guess my turn bet was kind of weak.
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Jul 28, 2007 22:23
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The flop bet is on the very extremely low end of what I would normally bet, but it's not awful. I would either bet more on the turn or check it through planning to call a river bet or bet if checked to. If he has a lower pair, he's almost definitely folding if you bet but may smell weakness and bet if you check. If he has a jack you're spewing money away and might get checkraised. I think I would actually prefer checking through turn, just because I don't think you get called by anything you beat in general and it will let you get value out of things that you're beating on the river that will call once you've shown some weakness, or they'll just bet out into you. Granted, this is what I would do at stakes where people can actually sort of play somewhat, betting is probably better at NL5 where people will just call down the whole way with pocket fours or something. I still probably only bet if he's real fishy though. If I have like AK or something instead of JJ I bet the turn, 3/4 pot or so. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jul 28, 2007 |
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Jul 28, 2007 22:55
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Stefan Prodan posted:Granted, this is what I would do at stakes where people can actually sort of play somewhat, betting is probably better at NL5 where people will just call down the whole way with pocket fours or something. I still probably only bet if he's real fishy though. Ugh betting the turn again with AK is horrible, especially at nl5. He calls the flop bet with a pair or a draw, and the turn changes nothing. If anything the idiot will feel even more secure about his pair of threes because lol only 2 jacks left in the deck he must have AK. Against a thinking player you're not in much better shape because this turn is a PERFECT spot for a c/r bluff with 77-TT, and he could still have called the flop with J9-JK in which case you're trying to blow someone off trips.
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Jul 29, 2007 00:15
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I generally fire a second barrel if the card is scary, and usually a top card pairing is scary for them. It also means they were more likely to be calling with a draw or a weaker pair or something that they can't really call with if you bet twice, and they assume you're going to bet again on the river. In my experience it works very well. Also it's not really a c/r bluff with 77-TT because you have AK--they're not bluffing, they have the best hand. If you had AA, then they'd be bluffing, and is the reason that I'm advocating checking behind the turn here, not betting pot.
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Jul 29, 2007 01:03
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I fire a second barrel with AK on that board almost every time. Fold equity coupled with the chances of your hand still being the best makes it +EV. I also agree with checking AA there often and betting versus calling stations or shorties.
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Jul 29, 2007 02:42
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Xyven posted:Ugh betting the turn again with AK is horrible, especially at nl5. He calls the flop bet with a pair or a draw, and the turn changes nothing. If anything the idiot will feel even more secure about his pair of threes because lol only 2 jacks left in the deck he must have AK. Against a thinking player you're not in much better shape because this turn is a PERFECT spot for a c/r bluff with 77-TT, and he could still have called the flop with J9-JK in which case you're trying to blow someone off trips. I agree with this. In my experience people call super light on high paired boards in general.
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Jul 29, 2007 06:19
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| # ? May 26, 2024 13:39 |
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blah_blah posted:I agree with this. In my experience people call super light on high paired boards in general. This is my inclination as well. I think most donkeys think THERE ARE TWO ON THE BOARD HE CAN'T POSSIBLY HAVE ONE NOW!
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Jul 29, 2007 06:20
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