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Alex, definitely shove river I think. He is getting 3:1 when you shove and I think he would have value-shoved 7x/AT/flush himself anyway because YOU won't be able to fold Ax getting 3:1. I think he has air a large % of the time when played like this (i.e. he can't pay you off) but I think you're always winning when the hand is played like this so you might has well shove your half PSB. What do you think about raising to $350 on this flop and hoping he bluff 4-bets air or shoves lower Ax or a flush draw.
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Feb 13, 2008 21:26
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| # ? May 26, 2024 11:43 |
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Shove if you thought the turn bet was for value.
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Feb 13, 2008 22:41
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EC10 posted:gotta run to class but wanted to post this I had a whole long thing typed up but lost it. Basically, I'd much rather call a shove here than shove myself. I think villain's range is pretty polarized between air and hands that beat you, with a few less hands that you beat that will call your shove thrown in. Unless the villain thinks that you can float the c/r and a turn bet and make an insane bluff on the river, I don't think you're getting called down light enough. I'd assume he 3bets AK always, and AQ/AJ at least a lot of the time. Has villain shown down any trash aces or is his pf calling range like A8+? That only leaves A8/A9 as really reliable hands that you can get value out of. edit: the c/r and turn lead line is what makes it appear to be pretty polarized to me. If he just called your flop bet and action went the same after that, I would vb here 100% of the time. M E A T Y fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Feb 13, 2008 |
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Feb 13, 2008 22:42
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Fasteddy posted:The following live hand occured at $1/$2 NL. I don't think I could fold KK here. Not preflop.
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Feb 13, 2008 22:53
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Psyduck posted:Alex, definitely shove river I think. He is getting 3:1 when you shove and I think he would have value-shoved 7x/AT/flush himself anyway because YOU won't be able to fold Ax getting 3:1. agree 100%, pot is so big going into the river that it seems like he should be shoving anything > an ace. It's a lot different if there's a psb left or w/e.
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Feb 13, 2008 23:40
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blah_blah posted:agree 100%, pot is so big going into the river that it seems like he should be shoving anything > an ace. It's a lot different if there's a psb left or w/e. well, yeah. i just don't see what he calls with that's worse. the problem here is that he never shows up with AQ/AJ because he 3bets a good amount pre. the metagame had been pretty tight post flop, so i highly doubt he c/r's flop with Ax. this pretty much narrows his flop c/r turn+bet range down to {FD, 7, air}. that's what i felt during the hand and it's still what i think now. i felt like a check was good at the time and i still do having thought about it more.
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Feb 14, 2008 00:33
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EC10 posted:well, yeah. I was actually going to post something very similar to this but I kinda figured I'd be wrong and everyone would just call me a nit, but I pretty much agree with you and MEATY.
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Feb 14, 2008 01:02
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OK, two hands I played last I'm wondering about. It was at an internet cafe so I don't have the hand history, but I can describe everything relevant. Both hands at NL25 on full tilt. Hand 1: Villain is in SB with ~$50, I'm in BB with ~$60. Dude in early position raises 3xbb, I have T6, there are like 4 callers including myself. Flop is TT7 rainbow. SB and myself check, random guy in EP bets, SB raises and I 3bet. Folds to SB who shoves all-in, so i am looking at calling about $40 into a $60 pot if I remember correctly. Villain seemed like a decent player, but I didn't have too much info on him. Do you guys call or fold here? Hand 2: Don't remember quite as well, but I raise AJ from late position, get a caller, flop is JJx clubs. Stacks are about ~$25 each. I bet, villain calls. Turn card is a club. Villain bets and I reraise all-in. Now what I'm wondering is if this reraise is really bad or not. If I just call and don't hit a full house on the river, then I don't think I want to fold to a shove on the river so I'm trying to protect my hand if that makes sense. But on the other hand, probably only a flush is going to call me where I'm way behind. This situation comes up quite a lot so I'm wondering what the best line is here. Fake edit: I know you pitr guys hate me from that other thread but I need help in my microlimit exploits :/
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Feb 14, 2008 03:34
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Your cool posted:poop hand1: id insta call that poo poo. hand2: how much did he raise on the turn? thats probably the deciding factor. also how much did you bet on flop. percentage-wise. But here its shove/fold. No reason to call really, and if you are behind, you got 10 outs. I like it.
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Feb 14, 2008 04:16
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Hand 1: You can't 3-bet fold here, thats insane. If you're looking for a fold, do it when its a bet and raise to you. But thats silly too, so get it in. Hand 2: Your action is screwed, positions, bet sizes and poo poo matter. I know its microstakes, but if I posted a 5/10 hand like this I'd get laughed at for being a donk.
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Feb 14, 2008 04:20
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LuckySevens posted:Hand 2: Your action is screwed, positions, bet sizes and poo poo matter. I know its microstakes, but if I posted a 5/10 hand like this I'd get laughed at for being a donk. JellyS posted:hand2: how much did he raise on the turn? thats probably the deciding factor. also how much did you bet on flop. percentage-wise. But here its shove/fold. No reason to call really, and if you are behind, you got 10 outs. I like it. Yea sorry, I'm not 100% sure but I think it was folded to me in CO, I bet standard 3.5xbb, call from either SB or BB so pot is 1.85. I bet about 1.5 on flop which was called, so pot is 4.85 on turn. Then he bets about a pot sized bet on the turn and I shove my stack into the $10 pot.
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Feb 14, 2008 04:42
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if SB is not the pfr I think 3bet/folding is fine, wtf do you think he has (esp if the size of your 3bet is like $15)? hand 2 I probably call and call any non-club river/vbet smallish if he checks river
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Feb 14, 2008 04:44
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Hand 1- If he is a good player (which is rare for NL25), then he isn't shoving that much check-raising a check-raise over without a bigger ten. That said, I call all day at NL25. Hand 2- Like Lucky said, there is no way to analyze this hand without the correct stacks and poo poo. Based off what you said though, I like the re-raise. He may have a flush, but more likely has a worse jack with maybe a club. Either way, better to get the money in now. Hell, you might even fold out the flush.
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Feb 14, 2008 06:43
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blah_blah posted:if SB is not the pfr I think 3bet/folding is fine, wtf do you think he has (esp if the size of your 3bet is like $15)? Yea, this was my thinking after the session (which is the exact opposite of how I played it, I called the 4bet in hand 1 by the way) but it's interesting to see that other posters have different opinions.
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Feb 14, 2008 06:53
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Here's an NL100 FR hand i played tonight. Villain is running at 47/8.3/3 - but only over 120 hands. Flop aggr is 1.8 and increases to 4 on the turn. I've also seen him 3bet a few times pre. Don't have a read on original raiser. I realize my betsizing is dumb looking but I thought a cold call here was terrible and a big raise also sucked vs sb stack size. Is this terrible & a spew? http://www.holdemmanager.net NL Holdem $1(BB) Poker Stars Game#15274682881 SB: gambler835 ($30.80) BB: 2hopper4 ($70.65) Swtwtr25 ($98) _Aer_Mingus_ ($21.50) mokman1808 ($142.10) thesammysam ($149.55) king_noth_ ($100) BTN: nicknick552 ($128.30) gambler835 posts (SB) $0.50 2hopper4 posts (BB) $1 Dealt to nicknick552 Th 9h fold, fold, fold, thesammysam raises to $4 fold, nicknick552 calls, fold, SB calls, FLOP ($12.50) 7s 8d Td check, thesammysam bets $8 nicknick552 raises to $17 2hopper4 calls $17 thesammysam folds TURN ($54.50) 7s 8d Td Kh 2hopper4 bets $22 nicknick552 raises to $77 2hopper4 calls $27.65
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Feb 14, 2008 08:04
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spew. fold preflop, standard flop, fold turn.
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Feb 14, 2008 14:57
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niknik posted:Here's an NL100 FR hand i played tonight. Villain is running at 47/8.3/3 - but only over 120 hands. Flop aggr is 1.8 and increases to 4 on the turn. I've also seen him 3bet a few times pre. Don't have a read on original raiser. I think pf is fine, if I raise the flop, which I would a lot of the time, I would raise more. If he doesn't give up after the raise I'm probably done with the hand (especially against a guy who your reads indicate will probably go all the way with JT type hands here)
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Feb 14, 2008 16:34
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You need to clarify who was in the hand. You and the converter both initially say SB, then the converter takes SB out of the hand postflop and throws the BB in there. I was about to comment on your play, but now I'm all confused.
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Feb 14, 2008 19:41
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M E A T Y posted:I think pf is fine, if I raise the flop, which I would a lot of the time, I would raise more. If he doesn't give up after the raise I'm probably done with the hand (especially against a guy who your reads indicate will probably go all the way with JT type hands here) I agree. I would sometimes raise and sometimes call here. Probably call more than raise though. I think his cold call than leading out on the river indicates your prob done here. If you raised more on the flop, you might get the PFR to fold an overpair. What were the results? souLjah fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Feb 14, 2008 |
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Feb 14, 2008 22:14
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I held vs A6dd. I think vs specific villain its fine apart from my dumb raise on the flop. He could easily have a J but prolly plays any pair, or 56 the same given his stats. Sorry for the weird converter. Also Jelly do you really fold 9Ts on the button ?
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Feb 14, 2008 23:10
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niknik posted:Also Jelly do you really fold 9Ts on the button ? Against a 4x raiser, all day everyday, unless i got reads
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Feb 14, 2008 23:35
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JellyS posted:Against a 4x raiser, all day everyday, unless i got reads Same here but I am a nit.
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Feb 14, 2008 23:37
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JellyS posted:Against a 4x raiser, all day everyday, unless i got reads meh it's a MP open and stacks are 130BB effective, it really isn't bad. flop raise needs to be to $25+ though
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Feb 14, 2008 23:53
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I like playing suited connectors on the button when theres a EP raise but T9s is the lowest I'll go if nobody else has called. If there's a raise and 2-3 calls you better believe I'm calling with 65s and stuff like that. edit - this is for 6max not full ring artard fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Feb 15, 2008 |
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Feb 14, 2008 23:59
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blah_blah posted:meh it's a MP open and stacks are 130BB effective, it really isn't bad. flop raise needs to be to $25+ though full ring + natural nittyness of FR does play a factor. if this was 6max, id call, but full ring, not really. Plus its cash game.
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Feb 15, 2008 00:12
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Yeh but wouldn't we rather play 9Ts vs a nittier open than a wide one?
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Feb 15, 2008 00:18
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What about if there are a few limpers instead of a raise? I read on 2+2 that you should raise. Is this just to conceal your hand? Obviously if I have a really good hand I should raise regardless, but is it that bad to limp behind with JTs or whatever?
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Feb 15, 2008 00:41
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niknik posted:Yeh but wouldn't we rather play 9Ts vs a nittier open than a wide one? what. so you like being the underdog eh?
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Feb 15, 2008 01:29
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JellyS posted:what. so you like being the underdog eh? you are so wrong here that i am wondering if you're joking. the value in the preflop call comes from the implied odds, so of course you would rather be playing it vs a nittier open than a wide open. and what is "plus it's a cash game" supposed to mean? you get the implied odds from having the deep stack. you can't call here if you're 30 bb deep or whatever.
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Feb 15, 2008 01:37
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?2103123 Paul's stats are 34/6/2.0. I've never seen him get out of line, never seen him bluff. The queen on the river didn't slow him down at all, he pretty much insta-pushed. Do I have to call here after I river the 2 pair? The way he played it I just felt reeked of 44 so I made the big laydown.
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Feb 15, 2008 01:39
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Meep posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?2103123 you should know if you're going to call on the {club, blank, A, Q} river when you make the turn call. otherwise fold turn. and if i can only put the person on one hand that beats me i generally don't fold.
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Feb 15, 2008 01:42
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EC10 posted:you should know if you're going to call on the {club, blank, A, Q} river when you make the turn call. otherwise fold turn. I can only put him on one hand that I beat as well, AJ. I'd say TKclubs is a small possibility as well. Meep fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Feb 15, 2008 |
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Feb 15, 2008 01:46
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fair enough. i actually wasn't paying very close attention to bet sizing. it's probably a fold then, especially if he insta pushed.
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Feb 15, 2008 01:50
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Jelly what I meant to say was - if someone is opening trash, you are not gonna get paid when you flop a monster or monster draw vs their rags. In fact having this discussion with you made me realize a small reason why I have sucked so hard at 6max is playing marginal hands with a raise in front with little implied odds vs their range just because "i have position yo". yes even though i was told this repeatedly by my poker idol eric molina/kathy liebert i didn't actually believe it until now. ty.
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Feb 15, 2008 02:02
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im terrible at poker also, whats the full definition of nitty?
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Feb 15, 2008 02:08
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JellyS posted:im terrible at poker He's just saying your implied odds to stack him are better if he has AA than if he has QTo. Suited connectors are hands that have hit flops really strongly or else be thrown away, so you're probably folding to a cbet from both hands if you don't make anything, but if you get a huge flop, you can make a lot more money from the AA (stacking him a good percentage of the time), but the QT is probably folding to any kind of heat, meaning your "hits" aren't nearly as profitable while your misses should lose you roughly the same amount. It's an important concept, but definitely moreso in cash games than in tournaments. post-feminist rimjob fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Feb 15, 2008 |
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Feb 15, 2008 04:39
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It really depends on what kind of player he is too though. What if he raises a wide range of hands but gives up a lot when he doesn't hit on the flop? Then you can call with a lot of speculative hands and hope to just steal it from him assuming neither of you hit.
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Feb 15, 2008 05:26
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Stefan Prodan posted:It really depends on what kind of player he is too though. What if he raises a wide range of hands but gives up a lot when he doesn't hit on the flop? Then you can call with a lot of speculative hands and hope to just steal it from him assuming neither of you hit. not everyone only plays poker when mike greek is online, stefan podnit
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Feb 15, 2008 06:04
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I think then you might as well 3-bet him lightly. I think the loose passive players limp those situations much more than raising. I can't imagine raising tons of hands OOP and just check folding everything i miss.
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Feb 15, 2008 06:15
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EC10 posted:not everyone only plays poker when mike greek is online, stefan podnit I don't even get what you mean by this, tons of Cake players give up to floats too much, including some of the "better" regs like RUMMOL. I'm assuming you're kidding though since I haven't seen mikegreek online in months. Also, I know it is YOU that is the nit, I have it on good authority from one "dshizzle76", so don't try and pull a fast one, gay boy! Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 15, 2008 |
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Feb 15, 2008 17:56
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