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http://www.pokerhand.org/?2261431 Villain has tag stats of 15/10/5. I didn't raise turn because since he's not a drooler I didn't want to fold out an A when he raised flop and lead turn. On the river I think I'm chopping at best and fold. Am I a weak tight fish?
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Mar 13, 2008 07:25
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niknik posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?2261431 I fold the river but 100% raise the turn or flop. Gotta try to get the money in you basically have the nuts and there is so much money left behind.
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Mar 13, 2008 08:23
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ZeroStar posted:I fold the river but 100% raise the turn or flop. Gotta try to get the money in you basically have the nuts and there is so much money left behind. I'd love to hear more about this because I think it's a common spot in the BB where you can either spew or make a lot of money - multi-way limped pot. I can definitely see an argument for raising the turn, but what can I expect him to call with if I do? He's not a drooler. A worse 6 is very possible but so is K6, A6 and any A or suited combo he decided to limp w. He would def call a turn raise with a worse 6 but how about a bare A? Very possible he would just toss it and I lose value when he check calls the river. Having said that, typing that last sentence has just made me realize that raising turn is best, since he likely puts the same amount of $ in the pot whether I raise turn or whether he check-calls the river. I think on the river he is never betting a 6 unless he is a complete dummy. In summary, I agree w raise turn. TY.
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Mar 13, 2008 20:06
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The thing is he is probably going to have a hard time getting away from an ace, most people at SSNL are and you have to count on that. Raising the turn also gives you the best chance at stacking a worse 6, a good part of his range because he was in the SB. People play bad on paired boards a lot, so I think raising the turn is a great default because otherwise the pot is going to be so small on the river. The times you can raise him and get a bigger value bet out of him on the river should outweigh the small value you get by just calling his tiny turn bet and trying for one more bet on the river. It also balances your play if you are a person who bluff raises a fair amount, if people see you slow playing big hands like this they may not believe your bluffs (this matters more for 6max). I don't think your line was bad but I just think raising the turn should be the default if you don't have any special reads on the villain.
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Mar 13, 2008 21:11
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?2267211 Would you play this hand differently? Def calling here? http://www.pokerhand.org/?2267226 Am I beat here? Majority of the time? http://www.pokerhand.org/?2267232 http://www.pokerhand.org/?2267238
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Mar 14, 2008 10:25
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First hand I probably call. The preflop action (reraising the minraise to 3.5bb from the BB) looks more likely to be a big ace than 22/33/45, plus you're getting like 3.5 to 1. Second hand, I can't imagine him not having a ten after he calls the flop and turn. Your betting line probably looks like an overpair to him, and I don't think he's worried about you having a jack, so the river push looks even more like a ten. You're getting a good price but I'd still fold. Third hand I push. Limping utg then bet-calling the flop looks kind of weird for 9T, unless maybe it's 9T of diamonds. I think it's more likely that he has QJ or even AA/KK after a failed limp-reraise. In that spot I'd probably push and take the risk of 9T or set over set. Fourth hand I'd raise the flop. I don't know that he would just fire a pot bet on the flop if he had a set or 9T. That looks more to me like top pair or a big draw, so as played I'd probably call after he pushes the turn.
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Mar 14, 2008 11:03
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?2268021 Ugh bad hand. I thought his pre flop 3bet was bs because it looked like my bet was bs, on the flop and turn i thought i was still ahead but then by the river i thought i was screwed and gave it up. Where did i go wrong here.
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Mar 14, 2008 16:35
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Your cool posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?2268021 When you raise a limp, it's generally a good idea to raise your normal amount plus at least a big blind per limper (so in this case it'd be more like 2.25 or 2.5) to cut down a little on his implied odds. Obviously it doesn't factor much into the hand, but it's just something to keep in mind. Your read is that he's raising you because he thinks you're likely iso-raising with a weakish hand. Have you iso-raised before in the session, and has he come over the top of iso-raises in the session? If so, what kind of hands were shown down? Your lead on the flop makes absolutely zero sense, since his range for minraising you on the flop is polarized towards really weak hands, which are going to fold here, or really strong hands, which are going to raise you here for value. You're not really getting value from much here besides maybe a stubborn AKs or something, but when he does raise you, there's pretty much no way you're not crushed. What range of hands can you plausibly put him on here? 66,99, and JJ-AA are beating you, but you're really only beating something like 77/88 or AQ/AK, but no one is ever, ever, ever taking this line with any of those hands. After you call the his minraise with a hand that's obviously way behind, it's just a matter of how much he thinks he can extract on such a dry board against your underpair, which turns out to be $13. post-feminist rimjob fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Mar 14, 2008 |
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Mar 14, 2008 16:52
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Psychosis posted:First hand I probably call. The preflop action (reraising the minraise to 3.5bb from the BB) looks more likely to be a big ace than 22/33/45, plus you're getting like 3.5 to 1. 1 - Yea I think the call is the right decision. Gonna see if someone else posts than i'll post the results. 2 - Can you really fold that on the river given whats already in the pot? If you have Kings are you really gonna lay down your hand on that board? QQ I could maybe understand but still. I'd like to see what some other people might do. 3 - Set over set im shipping it but 9T is such a specific hand to put him on but def possible. 4 - I don't think a set would do that either, maybe 2pair or the combo draw. He leads which always makes me wonder cause he doesn't wait for me to cbet or he thinks I might not cbet into him if I have air?
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Mar 14, 2008 19:23
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Here is a hand I played today that I thought was pretty interesting. Hand #1439011607000535: Chelsea (6-Max) 11607 Seat 1: clinton1 (92.20 in chips) Seat 2: ZeroStar (122.50 in chips) Seat 3: kincsesz (111.30 in chips) Seat 8: gmblr24 (59.00 in chips) Seat 9: Jazzman79 (69.75 in chips) Seat 10: DONKAMELEON (115.30 in chips) Jazzman79: posts small blind $0.50 DONKAMELEON: posts big blind $1 Dealt to ZeroStar [ 9d 9c ] clinton1: folds ZeroStar: raises to $3.50 kincsesz: raises to $11 gmblr24: folds Jazzman79: folds DONKAMELEON: folds ZeroStar: calls @@@ F_L_O_P @@@ [ 4c 5d Jc ] Pot: $23 ZeroStar: checks kincsesz: bets $11.75 ZeroStar: calls *** TURN *** [ 7c ] Pot: $46 ZeroStar: checks kincsesz: checks *** RIVER *** [ Td ] Pot: $46 ZeroStar: checks kincsesz: bets $47 ZeroStar: calls Villain has already 3bet me once and he just sat down probably 10 hands ago. I have a pretty aggressive image so I think his 3betting range is a little wide. This is a flop I will check raise a lot but I just call here to see what he does on the turn. I think this hand is a good exercise for hand reading and narrowing the villains range on each street. What do you guys infer from his actions and do you play it different on any street?
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Mar 14, 2008 23:13
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Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/03/16 - 16:42:29 (ET) Table 'Urda III' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: schender11 ($28.25 in chips) Seat 2: RobChopper ($25 in chips) Seat 3: NarkyBark ($36.65 in chips) Seat 4: markemark421 ($16.75 in chips) Seat 5: Zanaa ($18.75 in chips) Seat 6: Doc Willis ($34.85 in chips) Seat 7: ratana718 ($27.70 in chips) Seat 8: mathis81 ($40.20 in chips) Seat 9: mjh1 ($21.05 in chips) mjh1: posts small blind $0.10 schender11: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to NarkyBark (Qc Qd) RobChopper: folds NarkyBark: raises $0.75 to $1 markemark421: calls $1 Zanaa: folds Doc Willis: calls $1 ratana718: folds mathis81: folds mjh1: calls $0.90 schender11: calls $0.75 *** FLOP *** (Ts Jc 8c) mjh1: checks schender11: checks NarkyBark: bets $3 markemark421: folds Doc Willis: calls $3 mjh1: folds schender11: folds *** TURN *** (Ts Jc 8c 2s) NarkyBark: bets $8 Doc Willis: raises $8 to $16 NarkyBark: folds Doc Willis collected $25.70 from pot Doc Willis: doesn't show hand Good or bad fold? I hate being out of position with these kinds of things. He had like $13 behind or so, so it seemed like he wanted it in. I didn't have any particular read on him, although I've been a little pushy at the table.
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Mar 16, 2008 21:59
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) MP ($8.40) CO ($11.10) Button ($14.85) SB ($10.95) BB ($2.25) Hero ($11) Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4  , 4 . Hero raises to $0.4, 3 folds, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold. Flop: ($0.90) 4  , 3 , 8 (2 players)SB bets $0.3, Hero raises to $1.3, SB calls $1. Turn: ($3.50) 6 (2 players)SB checks, Hero checks. River: ($3.50) A (2 players)SB bets $0.8, Hero calls $0.80. Final Pot: $5.10 Villain was loose preflop, playing about half his hands. He almost never raised preflop. He seemed to be pretty willing to fold on the flop if he had nothing, but I hadn't seen him play a flush draw and I didn't know if he was the kind who can't let go. Should I have fired again on the turn? Also, how are the bet sizes? I'm a little unsure of how much I should be betting a lot of the time.
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Mar 17, 2008 00:34
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NarkyBark posted:..... I think its a fold.
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Mar 17, 2008 00:35
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parre posted:set of 4s The bet sizes look good, and I suppose this isn't a terrible way to play the hand. I would probably bet the turn again against a lot of players but on that board it isn't bad to check behind for pot control because draws just came in. River is pretty standard, if he checked I would bet like $2.75.
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Mar 17, 2008 01:59
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parre posted:You should definitely have bet chunky on that turn (do not check behind in this spot ever ever ever ever ever), you're giving a free card and if he has any heart he's got 8 outs against you, not to mention random straight draws he might have (although this is less likely obviously). You NEED to bet to force him to make a -EV call if he has a lone heart, or just take the pot down right there if he can do math. If he comes over the top on the turn then you have a decision to make but regardless of what you decide to do if he shoves you can't check behind.
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Mar 17, 2008 02:26
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Delysid posted:You should definitely have bet chunky on that turn (do not check behind in this spot ever ever ever ever ever), you're giving a free card and if he has any heart he's got 8 outs against you, not to mention random straight draws he might have (although this is less likely obviously). You NEED to bet to force him to make a -EV call if he has a lone heart, or just take the pot down right there if he can do math. If he comes over the top on the turn then you have a decision to make but regardless of what you decide to do if he shoves you can't check behind. I agree with your post except for "ever ever ever ever ever". There are some players I play against who will fold most turns there but bluff any river if you check behind. Seeing as most reasonable draws already got there, checking behind is pretty decent. We can be afraid of the runner-runner flush if the fourth heart actually hits, don't you think? A check-raise on the turn here sucks so much.
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Mar 17, 2008 03:31
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ZeroStar posted:he just sat down probably 10 hands ago. I have a pretty aggressive image I assume you have played with him prior then also?
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Mar 17, 2008 03:40
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Pimple posted:I assume you have played with him prior then also? No this is just based on what he's seen so far. I don't remember exactly but I was very active in the hands that he was at the table, and he had already 3bet me once and I folded. This is a small sample to make assumptions but I think he can definitely tell I have been playing aggressive, enough so that I think his 3betting range is wider than TT+ and AK.
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Mar 17, 2008 04:14
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ZeroStar posted:Here is a hand I played today that I thought was pretty interesting. I find that most villains when bluffing air on the river, will do 2/3 to 3/4. It's pretty rare to bluff full pot when a smaller size will do, especially when theres really nothing to represent on the river.
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Mar 17, 2008 08:02
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HKS posted:I find that most villains when bluffing air on the river, will do 2/3 to 3/4. It's pretty rare to bluff full pot when a smaller size will do, especially when theres really nothing to represent on the river. Is $100NL your regular game? Not being a smartass, I'm really curious. In my FTP games, 2/3 and 3/4 pot bets make me stop and consider while pot bets are more often bluffs. This line is the classic wiffed line, and I snap off a lot of bluffs from players who overuse it. Same goes for people who like to float OOP then bet pot on the river when you check the turn. The exception is when I am facing a bet by a regular grinder/winner, in which case the pot bet usually indicates a strong hand by someone who knows I don't like folding.  But for the standard donkey, this line is the "oh my god he checked, mash bet pot!" line.Not saying I think that's the case for this particular hand, though I'm curious if Zero remembers how quickly he bet.
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Mar 17, 2008 13:00
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Villain in that hand bet pretty quickly, not an insta bet but close. I didn't take bet sizing into my considerations because if you look closely you will see Villain just potted it PF, 1/2 potted the flop, and potted the river. That makes me think this river bet is no different than a 2/3rds pot bet a smarter opponent would make. I'm happy to get some discussion going on this hand though, who likes the call? I think villain checking behind the turn is huge and it basically eliminated QQ+ from his range. The only hand that river helped is TT (one of the hands villain is repping perfectly, but is now discounted), so I just thought it really looked like a bluff. He probably bets a good jack like that on the river too but there aren't a lot of them in his range, and I think this particular villain would bet AJ on the turn. ZeroStar fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Mar 17, 2008 |
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Mar 17, 2008 19:22
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albedoa posted:I agree with your post except for "ever ever ever ever ever". There are some players I play against who will fold most turns there but bluff any river if you check behind. Seeing as most reasonable draws already got there, checking behind is pretty decent. We can be afraid of the runner-runner flush if the fourth heart actually hits, don't you think? A check-raise on the turn here sucks so much. I thought if I bet the turn there would be significant risk of getting check-raised regardless of his holding, or of him folding a hand that he would have bet on the river once I checked behind on the turn. I did expect him to bet the river, and if he hadn't I would have bet there. He had TT and I took it down, but I was worried that I didn't get enough value out of my hand or had screwed up in some other horrible way. Thanks everyone for the input.
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Mar 17, 2008 19:54
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parre posted:I thought if I bet the turn there would be significant risk of getting check-raised regardless of his holding, or of him folding a hand that he would have bet on the river once I checked behind on the turn. This is exactly why I don't mind checking there, and probably would in this position. You significantly reduced your risk without taking too much of a value hit (against his range, not specifically TT). Anyone else want to comment?
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Mar 17, 2008 20:00
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albedoa posted:Is $100NL your regular game? Not being a smartass, I'm really curious. In my FTP games, 2/3 and 3/4 pot bets make me stop and consider while pot bets are more often bluffs. This line is the classic wiffed line, and I snap off a lot of bluffs from players who overuse it. Same goes for people who like to float OOP then bet pot on the river when you check the turn. The exception is when I am facing a bet by a regular grinder/winner, in which case the pot bet usually indicates a strong hand by someone who knows I don't like folding. $100NL is not my regular game, and I like your analysis on the river PSB better than mine. I still don't see what villain whiffed with here though, I think most villains with any kind of showdown value he's going to check river and including all PP and connectors 34-JQ all hit something. Unless he turned his smaller pair into a bluff He has to have AK, AQ, QK here for you to be good right?
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Mar 17, 2008 22:07
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Villain showed down 88 in that hand and I was really confused. Probably a thin spot but I thought it was a fairly typical check to induce a bluff on the river, so I had to call given that he never ever checks behind a better hand on the turn (maybe TT).
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Mar 18, 2008 04:27
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ZeroStar posted:
You shouldn't check raise this type flop imo unless you intend to get it in because otherwise it just turns your hand into a bluff when it has some value. Since he is probably following through with almost his entire range on the flop a check-call on that street is fine, with the plan to re-eval the turn. As you can tell it gets hard to play postflop when you defend preflop oop with pairs like 99 and below to 3bets. 99 (and maybe 88) does have some actual value vs most ranges so that is generally my borderline when defending with pocket pairs preflop vs unknown and default 3betting ranges. As played I think this is really standard and you only have to pick off a bluff 1/3 times on the river. His range is certainly weighted towards nuts or nothing (and there are very few big hands I can see him having) at that point so it will be a profitable call. There are very few people who will river a ten and then bet for value at that level. I see in the results he had 88 but I don't think he was going for value there and is probably just stupid. Sometimes you get valuetowned by accident 
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Mar 18, 2008 07:14
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Unknown, not a reg as far as I know. http://www.pokerhand.org/?2287861 Another unknown. Should have bet more on the flop. http://www.pokerhand.org/?2287864
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Mar 18, 2008 07:33
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Thanks for that response nachos it made me more confident about that hand. I never gave thought to if he would or would not Vbet a lone T I just assumed he hardly ever had one in that spot but that is a really good point. Souljah: Hand 1: I'm never going to fold on the turn and I probably just call as played. Standard line I think I am almost always just leading the turn and I could think about folding to a raise. A lot of times a made flush will flat the turn and raise river so I would probably make a regular turn bet and then b/f the river about 1/2 pot. I don't really think you can consider folding the turn he can have a million set/2pair/pair + FD hands, not to mention floats that think you are FOS because you cbet flop and checked the turn OOP. I think calling turn and then b/fing a non heart river might even be better than c/cing river again. Hand 2: Weird spot getting minraised is retarded, I think it is a really opponent based decision. I don't really believe that 3 helped his hand so I guess you're afraid of 66? I really think you need information about villains minraising tendency's because they are usually pretty specific (like some people only minraise the nuts, some do it on the flop a lot when they think villain is cbetting, etc.). I don't think calling is horrible because he will probably bet small on the river and you can see a cheap showdown maybe. ZeroStar fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Mar 18, 2008 |
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Mar 18, 2008 09:50
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souLjah posted:Unknown, not a reg as far as I know. 1: definitely lead turn, you're line can easily be interpreted as FOS and most donks will bet the 3rd heart no matter what. As played, call and lead any river (cry/cut yourself if it's a heart). 2: i like making it like $6.50-$7.50 on the flop, but on such a dry board I could see that you don't want to scare away action. The minraise is indeed weird, the 3 can't help any hand that called pf except 33 or 66, call and see what he does on the river. Maaaybe fold to a PSB on a brick river, but I'm really lost as what to do when he checks to you, can anyone else give opinions there?
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Mar 18, 2008 11:34
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schlaufux posted:2: i like making it like $6.50-$7.50 on the flop, but on such a dry board I could see that you don't want to scare away action. The minraise is indeed weird, the 3 can't help any hand that called pf except 33 or 66, call and see what he does on the river. Maaaybe fold to a PSB on a brick river, but I'm really lost as what to do when he checks to you, can anyone else give opinions there? You might be missing some value if you check behind on the river, but I wouldn't mind since it helps you understand what a bad minraise on the turn would mean from this guy and you can probably use that info for some profit later.
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Mar 18, 2008 17:02
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Thanks for all the responses guys, Hand1 we both have 200BB stacks, does this affect any of my decisions at all? I don't think it does here but another case? I chose to call in hand2, and he pushed the river for a little over half pot I believe. http://www.pokerhand.org/?2287868
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Mar 18, 2008 20:16
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souLjah posted:I chose to call in hand2, and he pushed the river for a little over half pot I believe. I'd definitely call that. Hand that beat you: AA, A3, 66, 33, 63, any 3. AA, 66 and even A3 suited are kinda possible, the other 3 are extremely unlikely. Hands that he could have that you beat/tie: KK, QQ, AK, AQ, AJ, KJ, maybe QJ or J10, busted flush(especially A high), air. To me it seems like he was trying to rep the 3 for some retarded reason, and either spiked an ace or is trying to rep it. AK/AQ hearts is pretty plausible. You made top 2 pair, and the better hands than that aren't very likely given the preflop and flop action, except 66 or AA. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think you make a profit in this situation to near instacall. Pizzlefish fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Mar 18, 2008 |
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Mar 18, 2008 20:38
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Could also have JJ... I know I sometimes play JJ really aggressive and would reraise early, and sometimes really passive to see how the hand plays out.
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Mar 19, 2008 01:39
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souLjah posted:Thanks for all the responses guys, Hand1 we both have 200BB stacks, does this affect any of my decisions at all? I don't think it does here but another case? You can't really fold now but I don't really see what you are beating (maybe KJ). He almost always has a set by the turn.
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Mar 19, 2008 04:08
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Strong Sauce posted:You can't really fold now but I don't really see what you are beating (maybe KJ). He almost always has a set by the turn. What would you have done on the turn?
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Mar 19, 2008 05:58
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That hand is played fine, and I agree with Pizzle's analysis. Maybe push the turn, but otherwise nice hand.
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Mar 19, 2008 06:54
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souLjah posted:I chose to call in hand2, and he pushed the river for a little over half pot I believe. Hah, check call check MINRERAISE is such a 'i have a set' donk line. Interesting hand, I probably stack off too with that river card but with the benefit of looking over the hand history i'd like to fold that on the turn, it's just one pair. Just my two cents it's not like i'm good or anything .Also it's starting to tilt me that pokerhand doens't show pot sizes on each street...
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Mar 19, 2008 09:32
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Your cool posted:Also it's starting to tilt me that pokerhand doens't show pot sizes on each street... Pokerhand is a straight HH converter. It's not meant to do anything more than interpret the exact text you paste into it. That's also a donk line for "I have a jack". The hands that beat you are unlikely enough for this to be a profitable call.
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Mar 19, 2008 12:46
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albedoa posted:Pokerhand is a straight HH converter. It's not meant to do anything more than interpret the exact text you paste into it. Thanks for all the info guys, the guy had K3o!!!! I am pretty sure you won't see K3o there very often but just wanted to see whether it was the right call.
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Mar 19, 2008 19:03
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| # ? May 27, 2024 10:33 |
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souLjah posted:Thanks for all the info guys, the guy had K3o!!!! ugh, that would piss me off so much. At least now you know he will limp early with nothing, call preflop raises OOP with nothing, flat call flops with bottom pair, and minraises probably mean he has something. Definitely mark him to play again some time.
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Mar 19, 2008 19:40
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