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niknik posted:River is a bad bluff card...I can't really think of a card that isn't an A/T/spade that I'd feel good about betting here..maybe a king? Don't think given villain description and bvb he folds any pair he got to the river with nor should he! I agree. However, this is a leak in my game, and I would fire the third barrel here for probably about 2/3s pot.
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Sep 30, 2008 22:50
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I think the only way you get a fold from better on the river is if you shove. If he wants to call it off with a marginal hand then put him in a tough spot to do it with terrible odds and if you get caught it builds some history so you can do it for value in the future. edit: meant to say fold from better niknik fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Oct 1, 2008 |
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Sep 30, 2008 23:04
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nachos posted:The only way checking back the turn benefits you here is if you get paid off on the river if you hit your draw, because we are assuming that he will only double c/r you with a monster hand (otherwise if his range was even wider you could bet/shove the turn over a cbet and generate some folds out of that range). Thanks, this makes sense. I've been meaning to get in touch about more sessions but I'm pretty sick at the moment, hopefully next week.
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Oct 1, 2008 00:00
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?3261635 Villain had just doubled up 2 hands earlier on the table when he called off a 3rd of his stack 3ways with 44, he open shoved for just over pot in that hand. I was struggling to make sense of his river bet, especially after betting so small on flop/turn. Should I have raised the turn as well? I chose the pot control option, good idea?
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Oct 1, 2008 01:35
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Yeah I definitely don't like betting on that river. Nick is probably right that villain should be calling a decent sized bet on the river with any pair he has if he knows what cards I 2 and 3 barrel on but I don't know if that's the case here. This guy is a pretty passive player but he isn't a big calling station, I think he will fold weak pairs a lot of the time to a 3rd barrel on a Q or K, and possibly on a blank like a 2. If the turn was a king or queen instead of a jack I think I would 3 barrel any card that doesn't complete draws. I think I should be less inclined to in this particular spot but I would definitely fire on a Q or K river. e: Biggy: Weird spot but I would fold the river. 89 and the backdoor diamond draw got there which are both in his range, 89 might not be but if he is fishy like he sounds it could be. He can still have a ten too some of the time I think. On the turn I don't really know what I would do but I think I would call as well. ZeroStar fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Oct 1, 2008 |
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Oct 1, 2008 01:38
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I would raise turn. As played snap calling river, he is obviously an idiot and you just dont fold overpairs to idiots getting almost 3:1.
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Oct 1, 2008 02:13
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i agree with everything i've read nikik say to these busto hand posts in the last few pages. i now appoint niknik my official busto hands replier-to-in-chief.
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Oct 1, 2008 03:21
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Agree with nachos. Flop is well played. On the turn if your plan was to check behind then just call. If you were going to bet you can bump it up to 20 or whatever size your bet was going to be. Treat his minibet as a check. ps <3 niknik fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Oct 1, 2008 |
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Oct 1, 2008 03:27
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Teppec posted:I agree. However, this is a leak in my game, and I would fire the third barrel here for probably about 2/3s pot. yeah this is definitely a leak if you're always firing a third barrel here (or even most of the time as i agree this is a terrible river to bluff). if you're firing here that often you might also want to check out your double barrels because you're probably burning some money there as well
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Oct 1, 2008 05:52
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Is there any way I can get away from this on the turn? http://cakepoker.com//HandHistory/?Hand=xcLAxMTFxcDBw8TExMPCxYjCw8HExcI%3d
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Oct 1, 2008 16:03
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Humper posted:Is there any way I can get away from this on the turn? Raise bigger on the flop, and readless I vote no, but maybe... I mean, everything hit, including KQ/AT/JT/flush/KJ. You do stack AK/A  X/AA. Now that I type that out, I guess a fold is good.
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Oct 1, 2008 17:05
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M E A T Y posted:yeah this is definitely a leak if you're always firing a third barrel here (or even most of the time as i agree this is a terrible river to bluff). if you're firing here that often you might also want to check out your double barrels because you're probably burning some money there as well I'm not an obsessive Cbettor, but I think I'm a bit more aggro than is wise and probably double and triple fire in spots where check/calling or check/folding is a much better line. It is definitely a leak in my game though that I'm trying to get out of the habit of. Humper posted:Is there any way I can get away from this on the turn? Honestly, I think you can get away from this on the turn. On cake at micro/small stakes, any UTG minraise is a red flag for most players that screams 'I'm looking for action'. I'm assuming he snap called your check raise on the flop. On the turn, better two pair, straights, flushes, sets, they are all there and all in his range assuming he's an average joe. If you can't get away, which I'm not sure I could either, maybe a check/call, check/fold line might be better. Even if you doubt the turn and check/call, the river is an easy fold if he does bet considering everything gets there that beats you and then some and you might just end up with a check/check river for the cheap showdown as well. So basically, what Ranma said, except I took more words to say it.
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Oct 1, 2008 17:52
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Check/calling is basically the worst possible line in that spot. The only part of a range that that line is good against is air which is never in his range given the bet/call on the flop. Is he going to bet the weakish made hands that you are still ahead of like AQ on the turn? Probably not because the king hit. He will however bet the million hands that improved and he will get the option for a free card with any number of draws. I think it is a really clear bet or check/fold. I can't really say since you didn't provide any info on villain but against an unknown I think I would bet/fold. There is still a decent amount of money behind so I wouldn't feel too bad about it. ZeroStar fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Oct 2, 2008 |
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Oct 1, 2008 22:33
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http://weaktight.com/411670 I play the turn passively and put myself in a poo poo spot v a reg. He's an aggro winning reg but I've never noticed him overbet the river before. I have 10k hands on him where he's running at 23/18/3.6 with a 47% W%SD, His river agg is 5.0
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Oct 3, 2008 02:30
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Well, you're beating basically exactly a bluff and nothing else, so you just have to figure out whether you think he would bluff here which is almost entirely read-dependent. There's really no hands worse than yours that would ever try to get value here, but on the other hand you have basically telegraphed your hand (in that you only have a pair) by check/calling the turn. So if you want to be on that level, you could think he was just trying to push you off one pair. I would probably give it to him though, it's a relatively small pot and he has to be bluffing like what, 30% of the time here? If you think he's bluffing more than that, then go for it. If not, fold. It really boils down to levels and your read I think. Edit: Read pot size wrong on river at first.
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Oct 3, 2008 04:18
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/411670 What is he calling flop with that hes bluffing with on the river?
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Oct 3, 2008 05:07
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That's what I keep coming back to, surely he's checking a pocket pair and probably QJ also, so he basically has to be bluffing here if you're ahead. I am gonna lol if he spiked a set of 6s.
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Oct 3, 2008 06:10
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/411670 I fold and make a note, these bets are more often the nuts than air, and there isn't that many air hands unless he's turning made hands into a bluff, and no one at 2/4 is that sick.
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Oct 3, 2008 06:20
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What is up with his turn bet size. That's a weird rear end spot but I think I'm probably more inclined to give him credit for a monster with that inducer looking bet on the turn.
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Oct 3, 2008 06:53
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LuckySevens posted:unless he's turning made hands into a bluff, and no one at 2/4 is that sick. the secret to winning msnl poker 
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Oct 3, 2008 09:27
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I folded that hand but felt dumb w the turn action maybe being a b/f. I read this post today that I found related a lot to these river spots where it's clear either you or villain has a bluff catcher at best. http://www.leggopoker.com/blogs/isura/surprising-result-bet-sizing-1856.html Also have a couple hands here where I wasn't sure what to do on the river. http://weaktight.com/411726 He has about 50bbs left on the river. Easy jam? Am I stacking TT- enough? Is there more value in check calling to catch missed diamonds? Think I messed up my turn bet size. http://weaktight.com/411725 Here I flop a set and get to the river with a ton of money behind when the action killing card hits. I feel like he could easily have diamonds, it looks like I could have diamonds as well so if I check he will check all pairs behind and I miss value but if I bet he will rarely shove worse but I will still have to call when he does. So it's a must bet but how much. Bet/fold? Bet small to induce? Shove to make it look bluffy? I just find myself in spots where I'm probably missing a ton of value due to incorrect bet sizing and it's something I find hard to consciously think about during a hand.
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Oct 3, 2008 18:38
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niknik posted:
hand 1: I dont like the flop c/r sizing. I'd rather bet something closer to pot (70ish) to make my c/r bluffs cheaper as well. If this guy is somehow folding to 85 but not folding to 70 then fine. The turn bet size seems ok to me. Easy river shove the 8 is a total blank and they will never fold TT. hand 2: somewhat villian dependant but I think I'd just shove because shoving is fun. I bet the most optimal line in this hand is bet/fold about 150 or so because I can't ever remember bet/calling in this spot and being good in my entire life. re the Isura post: pretty sure prahlad was very good at this . I tend to shove only as a bluff when I know villians hand is face up and will call most bets but probably not a shove. I also like overbetting the river slightly when I know my opponent has some kind of bluffcatcher and the board is really dry. Now everyone knows my betsizing tells
nachos fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Oct 3, 2008 |
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Oct 3, 2008 20:08
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I CR bigger to build the pot so I can easily get it in by river but then this is incongruent with my turn bet sizing so if I wanna be unbalanced here might as well bet turn much bigger. I pussed out on the river and he checked behind 56ss. 2 I shoved and he folded and I was angry. Overbet shoving the river just hasn't been working out for me lately. Seems like I get called when I bluff and they fold when I value shove every time. Since one of these shoves happens probably 1/1000 hands it's probably just sample size I hope?
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Oct 4, 2008 01:39
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This is a spot I have some problems with. Playing medium strength hands that are probably best, but easily beaten out of the blinds. No solid reads, villain 1 is 25/5 over 88 hands, villain 2 is 43/3 over 35 hands. Full Tilt Poker Game #8336527703: Table Cornflower - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:48:07 ET - 2008/10/03 Seat 1: edwards4103 ($18) Seat 2: Richman316 ($10.70) Seat 3: Keystoned ($30.45) Seat 4: guignol24 ($3.75) Seat 5: Born2playpoker ($26.90) Seat 6: bendwittyso ($16.90) Seat 7: Benq2000X ($4.65) Seat 8: Vitki ($24.75) Seat 9: GDJCB ($25) Keystoned posts the small blind of $0.10 guignol24 posts the big blind of $0.25 The button is in seat #2 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Keystoned [9s As] Born2playpoker calls $0.25 bendwittyso folds Benq2000X folds Vitki folds GDJCB has 15 seconds left to act GDJCB folds edwards4103 calls $0.25 Richman316 folds Keystoned calls $0.15 guignol24 checks *** FLOP *** [8c 9d 2c] Keystoned bets $0.50 guignol24 folds Born2playpoker calls $0.50 edwards4103 has 15 seconds left to act edwards4103 calls $0.50 *** TURN *** [8c 9d 2c] [4s] Keystoned bets $1.25 Born2playpoker calls $1.25 edwards4103 has 15 seconds left to act edwards4103 folds *** RIVER *** [8c 9d 2c 4s] [2d] Keystoned bets $2.25 Born2playpoker raises to $4.50 Keystoned calls $2.25 I bet small all three streets for both value and pot control, I want to get value from my hand, but don't want to bloat the pot. I'm aware that I'm giving some decent odds for draws, but here I was okay with that because I wouldn't have a problem folding if the draws came in. On the turn I bet a littls over 1/2 pot to get value from draws, I strongly considered checking the turn against two callers, but w/ the board being so draw heavy I thought I was missing a bet by checking. On the river I considered just checking and calling less than psb as a bluff catcher, but decided to go ahead and bet about 1/2 pot again for value and fold to any raise but a minraise. Of course he minraises so I sigh and call. Edit : So the consensus seems to be that my line was fine, but I'm losing some value by not betting bigger on the flop / turn. I know this hand by itself is pretty standard / boring but I only posted because I'm playing out of the blinds and I feel kind of lost in this type of situation where I flop a decent hand out of the blinds against a few limpers who's range is likely to be very wide. I'm going to edit in results also just because his hand was so lol when he tabled it. *** SHOW DOWN *** Born2playpoker shows [Th Td] two pair, Tens and Twos Keystoned mucks Born2playpoker wins the pot ($13.30) with two pair, Tens and Twos cricket eater joe fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Oct 5, 2008 |
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Oct 4, 2008 02:10
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niknik posted:Overbet shoving the river just hasn't been working out for me lately. Seems like I get called when I bluff and they fold when I value shove every time. Since one of these shoves happens probably 1/1000 hands it's probably just sample size I hope? post the hands and we'll see For the above hand, I dont have a problem calling the minraise getting such good odds just because most nl25 players have the random unpredictable retard element to them and will surprise you sometimes. I think your original bet/fold plan on the river is solid and it can't really be a long term leak if you call a minraise here, especially with the given board texture. Draws missed and the 2 might even counterfeit some random 2 pair he might have slowplayed. nachos fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Oct 4, 2008 |
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Oct 4, 2008 02:51
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cricket eater joe posted:This is a spot I have some problems with. Playing medium strength hands that are probably best, but easily beaten out of the blinds.
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Oct 4, 2008 02:58
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I was basically gonna post the same thing as Ranma. You say that you want to pot control and you don't want to bloat the pot which is something you might have heard some highstakes player say or something, but I really don't think you need to worry about that here. When people talk about that they generally have good thinking opponents who can put them in lots of tough spots, but this is just not the case when you are playing 25nl. You're missing a lot of value by betting so small on the flop and turn, but I like the small bet/fold on the river, maybe a little bigger. I suppose you can call the minraise too once you get there because of what nachos said.
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Oct 4, 2008 04:17
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http://weaktight.com/417151 Here's another annoying river spot. He just sat down about 20 hands ago but has pretty much played every single one at least to the flop and is clearly somewhat fishy. So on the river: Bet: Get value from worse Ks, Ts, anything he decides to call with because he's a fish. Bet/call: Bad becase even a complete fish isn't gonna shove worse for value right? Bet/fold: Bad because we will be getting sick odds to call. C/f: But I have a pair  Seems like b/f for 150 is the least weaksauce play? Hand2: http://weaktight.com/417150 In this one my river vbet gets CRd by a reg. Considering that I know he is capable of slowplaying from prior history and he has also caught me triple barreling before (he might not remember tho) how's my line? I got raised on the river a ton tonight..so frustrating.
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Oct 4, 2008 08:59
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/417151 2nd hand, what's he calling flop and turn with? b/f is fine, but check behind looks good given your read.
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Oct 4, 2008 18:29
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http://weaktight.com/418523 I feel like I played this hand badly at the end, but my thoughts were that jing*** was just stabbing at a limped pot on the flop and I really had no idea what the short stack could be holding. Other notes are on the HH.
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Oct 4, 2008 18:35
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Spastic Moose posted:http://weaktight.com/418523 Just get it in, a J is more likely then better trips, and he'll go broke with both
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Oct 4, 2008 19:07
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Ranma4703 posted:Just get it in, a J is more likely then better trips, and he'll go broke with both Yeah, I did get it in. jing had JJ for top set and the shorty had K4o.
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Oct 4, 2008 20:08
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/417151 Same basic thing on both of these hands, what hand can they have that is consistent with the flop turn and river play that you can bluff with? In the first hand I think b/f 150 or 175 is fine. Second hand what hand could he possibly float twice and turn into a bluff there?
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Oct 4, 2008 21:11
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Definitely agree with b/f on the first niknik hand. If this guy was bluffy and the river wasn't a diamond you could consider trying to induce a bluff by c/c'ing, but the only draw that didn't come in is JQ so I think you are way better off betting for value against a guy who can have any king in his range. Second hand villain could be bluffing with some weak pair that caught a FD on the turn but that is kinda pushing it and I thinking folding is fine without too much history.
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Oct 5, 2008 01:54
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http://weaktight.com/418891 I haven't played with villain before, he seems (maybe decent) LAG, very aggro. After the fact, his stats were 25/21/16 over small sample (126 hands). I hate folding here, because it seems like I'm raising pre looking for this flop, but I hate calling a shove because I don't think diamonds are in his range often enough.
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Oct 5, 2008 04:14
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If that is cake do you have villains sn? I would call it as a standard against an aggro guy. As a general trend at microstakes I think players raise big on the flop with draws and tend to slowplay or raise small with huge hands. I think the pot's big enough to get it in.
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Oct 5, 2008 04:18
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Excedrin posted:http://weaktight.com/418891 Yeah, what zero says. Against a guy that agro, he's betting at you with all kinds of hands that hit that flop, but that you are ahead of. Get it in.
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Oct 5, 2008 05:22
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Excedrin posted:http://weaktight.com/418891 This is a fistpump snap call. If AJ is in his range, so is AQ, and you said he was LAG, very aggro. If you fold here, fold preflop and leave table.
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Oct 5, 2008 17:25
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http://weaktight.com/421316 Villian is 31/11/2.5, just a few hands with him, like 30 or so. Calling all day long here? http://weaktight.com/421317 No info on villian, first hand at the table, never seen him before. By potting it I pretty much have to call?
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Oct 6, 2008 07:42
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souLjah posted:http://weaktight.com/421316 Fistpump call the first one and the second one. You are getting 3:1 on a call in the second one, folding JT would be criminal
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Oct 6, 2008 12:40
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