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5463 posted:I don't think you can remove any two pairs from his range, and I don't think you can remove AA-AK either, and I don't think you can assume he won't call with top pair or top pair+gutshot. You guys need to stop assuming his opponent is playing poker the same way you are. The only hands I really remove from his range are J5/95. J9 is there, but low on the probability pole. I'm not saying it's impossible, but given preflop action, the likelihood of seeing those hands is low enough to be a nonfactor when considering if an overbet shove is good there. You just aren't going to see those hand combinations enough in this spot. I would never remove AA/AK from his range here, I don't know why you would think that. I do think that large overbet shoves have a chance of folding out AA/AK/KQ, whereas if you let him keep initiative and keep leading, you get money from him on the river that you are losing by overbet shoving on the turn.
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Nov 7, 2008 04:00
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niknik posted:Here I turn top 2 + FD deep. What is the best way to play this turn? He has 289 left behind. Don't take this the wrong way, but there's no way you're a winner if you play preflop that way.
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Nov 7, 2008 07:11
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M E A T Y posted:i make a tiny raise here, minraise even, which MAYBE leaves him thinking he has fe and adds a small amount of bluff/semibluff shoves to his range, but we dont mind getting it in even without those. i know nothing about villain but assuming hes an aggressive reg (which i am with his stack), his 3bet shoving range on turn, and if he calls, jamming the river with a 2/3 pot bet, i think he makes either of those moves with a wider range than what he calls your overbet shove with. i dont have a weaktight account so im assuming you just shoved over according to what other people are saying Making a gayraise to like 144 here is really good, not because he's ever going to decide to flip out and 3bet shove air but because he'll get it in a lot lighter with stuff like KT that he would fold to a shove. With a gay raise you're raising too little for him to want to fold a middling TP and since anybody can see that calling is pretty terrible he'll just shove instead LuckySevens posted:Don't take this the wrong way, but there's no way you're a winner if you play preflop that way. LUCKY SEVENS HAS SPOKEN FROM ON HIGH YOU ARE A LOSING PLAYER
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Nov 7, 2008 07:18
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LuckySevens posted:Don't take this the wrong way, but there's no way you're a winner if you play preflop that way. please expand....and dont worry bout hurtign my feelings. niknik fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Nov 7, 2008 |
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Nov 7, 2008 07:22
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niknik posted:please expand....and dont worry bout hurtign my feelings. he's wrong, obviously you don't want to call there 100% of the time against all opponents, but it's a great spot to call with a good hand on the button facing a 3bet of an utg minraising tard. poo poo, I like 4betting smallish there if the 3bettor is isoing a lot
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Nov 7, 2008 07:27
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Yeah, I agree with Xyven and I think a couple of other people sad that too. You obviously aren't flatting there all the time, or even that much at all. But I don't see anything wrong preflop. After talking to Chiyochan, he said gayminraise on the turn. Same thing Xyven said, and for pretty much the same reasons. Even against the worst case scenario, which is a set of kings, you have 9 outs.
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Nov 7, 2008 07:38
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Xyven posted:he's wrong, obviously you don't want to call there 100% of the time against all opponents, but it's a great spot to call with a good hand on the button facing a 3bet of an utg minraising tard. poo poo, I like 4betting smallish there if the 3bettor is isoing a lot I'd agree if this was his logic/thinking at the time, but I don't think it was. Unless I'm wrong, if you had a trick play where you had some meta game going on you thought you could exploit, that's fair.
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Nov 7, 2008 14:03
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LuckySevens posted:I'd agree if this was his logic/thinking at the time, but I don't think it was. Unless I'm wrong, if you had a trick play where you had some meta game going on you thought you could exploit, that's fair. i agree with xyven and niks pf play here, its 200bb deep, and hes not flatting a regular 3bet, its coming off a minraise. when i looked at the hand i just said ok this is now essentially a 2/4 hand, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with calling with kjs otb against an isoraiser. really i think your thoughts on the preflop play are more telling than niks actions, afaik youre a solid winning player but it seems like youre thinking quite a bit too rigidly here.
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Nov 7, 2008 15:46
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My image is really bad, so he could probably be doing this with a lot of hands. Hand #1677011985000911: Paris (6-max) 11985 Seat 1: ppok*** (22.00 in chips) Seat 2: Ledd*** (17.58 in chips) Seat 3: wouz*** (10.00 in chips) Seat 8: Hero (9.25 in chips) Seat 9: Boss*** (22.00 in chips) Seat 10: mele*** (2.30 in chips) Boss***: posts small blind $0.05 mele***: posts big blind $0.10 Dealt to Hero [ 2h Ah ] ppok***: folds Ledd***: folds wouz***: folds Hero: raises to $0.35 Boss***: raises to $1.05 mele***: folds Hero: calls @@@ F_L_O_P @@@ [ Th 3h 8d ] Boss***: bets $2.20 Hero: ?!?! On the tighter end I think I've got 38.9% equity: quote:Text results appended to pokerstove.txt For this reason, I think hero has to call if put in this position. What are your thoughts on this hand, keep in mind that I was going for maniac play. Considering I was getting called down super light, I think my equity is probably a lot higher than 38.9%
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Nov 7, 2008 17:12
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fold preflop
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Nov 7, 2008 19:12
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like chiyo said, fold preflop, but if you get to this flop doing anything other than shoving is terrible
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Nov 7, 2008 19:31
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Yes I did shove and he had aces and I didn't get my heart. I think if he was doing it with aces though he was probably doing it with KK, QQ, JJ as well, not to mention crazy bluffs, so my equity might have been quite good.
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Nov 7, 2008 19:50
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Squibz posted:Yes I did shove and he had aces and I didn't get my heart. I think if he was doing it with aces though he was probably doing it with KK, QQ, JJ as well, not to mention crazy bluffs, so my equity might have been quite good. but you called off 11% of your stack to hit pretty much your dream flop and you only have 40% equity or something
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Nov 7, 2008 20:30
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Are you playing lower stakes than normal to work on a maniac style or something Squibz? If not and these are your normal stakes and you are fairly new to 6max cash games then I think you are making a huge mistake by trying to play a maniac style. As an inexperienced player you are just going to get into more spots than normal where you make huge mistakes and you will almost surely have a higher winrate playing tighter. It is great if you want to loosen up your game to try and maximize your winrate but wait a while until you move up stakes a little and get a better understanding of poker in general. Just a PSA of sorts.
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Nov 7, 2008 21:15
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M E A T Y posted:i agree with xyven and niks pf play here, its 200bb deep, and hes not flatting a regular 3bet, its coming off a minraise. when i looked at the hand i just said ok this is now essentially a 2/4 hand, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with calling with kjs otb against an isoraiser. really i think your thoughts on the preflop play are more telling than niks actions, afaik youre a solid winning player but it seems like youre thinking quite a bit too rigidly here. I didn't see it was deep 
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Nov 7, 2008 23:00
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I think I just need to not play deep. Here's another sticky situation: http://weaktight.com/503145 I flop TPTK 3way 300bb deep in a reraised pot. My thoughts on the flop are: 1) A bet is absolutely mandatory, can't give free cards here and I will likely get calls from worse. 2) I am pretty much at the mercy of the villains as if they want to bluff raise me there's absolutely jack poo poo I can do but fold the flop since I can't profitably get 600bb in with 1 pair against anyone except the clowniest of clowns. UTG+1 is actually pretty clowny himself and got his stack by 3b/calling KQs PF in a CO/BTN battle and some other clowny things. BTn has been playing solid and haven't really seen him splash around. So is b/f the only correct line here..if so what sizing? Does this mean that PF is bad and a flat is much better?
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Nov 7, 2008 23:37
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Teppec posted:Without other information, I think I just like calling turn. You almost certainly have either best hand or best draw, but probably not both. man you must be the nittiest nit in the world. that being said, i agree with minraising to 170 or so here and I don't think it's even close. i can't think of any hands i would shove in this spot given stack sizes against a competent opponent. is this a leak?
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Nov 8, 2008 00:07
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niknik posted:I think I just need to not play deep. Here's another sticky situation: Your hand probably has more value over the course of 3 streets as a bluff catcher so there is nothing wrong with check calling and playing it passively.
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Nov 8, 2008 00:10
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blah_blah posted:man you must be the nittiest nit in the world. Naw, I'm actually not a supernit, I just didn't take into account that in some cases you end up freerolling against people, as well as forgetting that most opponents don't think. I am not afraid of getting it in with this hand at all. I was just thinking that shoving over chases too many hands out that will otherwise pay you with a calling the turn line, while only keeping along hands that are crushing you.
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Nov 8, 2008 01:37
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Live game 10/20. Dealt pocket JJ preflop, raise to 80, gets called by 5 people. Pot ~500 Flop comes A A 7 with flush draw on board; I'm OOP, I check, it checks around. Turn comes T (does not complete flush draw); I bet 260, it folds around to the guy on the button (Israeli), who pushes (he is short, with a stack of 500 or so, basically a minraise). ... I ??? I'll post the conclusion and my thoughts after.
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Nov 8, 2008 09:10
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Squibz posted:Live game 10/20. go in a time machine and dont bet the turn
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Nov 8, 2008 09:19
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Squibz posted:Live game 10/20. fake_roogle fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Nov 8, 2008 |
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Nov 8, 2008 11:01
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Squibz posted:Live game 10/20. tell us the truth are you really playing in a game with $10 and $20 USD blinds (or some currency reasonably close) or are you playing in some moon money and trying to sound like a live HSNLer
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Nov 8, 2008 13:26
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blah_blah posted:tell us the truth are you really playing in a game with $10 and $20 USD blinds (or some currency reasonably close) or are you playing in some moon money and trying to sound like a live HSNLer Yeah he totally hasn't posted several thousand times about how he's playing in Macau and he must be doing this for e-cred.
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Nov 8, 2008 17:30
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OK - I've since realized that it was a bad move, even though I did end up winning it (results oriented = bad). In this case, I was thinking that most aces would probably have raised to chase out the flush draw, and that calling with a bad ace was unlikely. Since the guy was so short, I figured I had to call, and there was a reasonable chance that he had QT, JT, T9. In this case, he turned over JT, but I do understand that I was lucky, and wont make this mistake again. Also - this was roughly $1.5 / $3 USD stakes. The highest stakes that I play is roughly $4 / $8 USD stakes. I have no idea why you'd think i was trying to make myself sound special.
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Nov 8, 2008 18:28
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http://weaktight.com/505557 I have BTN as 3betting his BTN 18% of the time over 2k hands. BB has been 3betting a ton as well, 10% from the BB, 19% from SB, 20% from BTN over 254 hands. How's my shove??
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Nov 9, 2008 01:30
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/505557 The only thing that makes me twitchy is the BB isn't 3-betting, he's 4-betting. But since he seems capable of stealing, I like it. If he calls, you most likely have two live cards and draws available and unless you have image issues with these guys, they are going to instantly polarize your range right to the top.
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Nov 9, 2008 01:56
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/505557 I think you might be outleveling yourself and thinking oh, button 3bets pretty light, bb knows this and he can 3bet light so he might be 4betting light. I just think too much has to fall into place for you to do this without a ton of history with these two. At least as far as 5bet shoving light I can't think of a much better hand than QJs to do it with
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Nov 9, 2008 01:56
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Teppec posted:The only thing that makes me twitchy is the BB isn't 3-betting, he's 4-betting. But since he seems capable of stealing, I like it. If he calls, you most likely have two live cards and draws available and unless you have image issues with these guys, they are going to instantly polarize your range right to the top. Not to pick on you but I've seen you make this mistake before, polarizing doesn't mean pinpointing someones range at some point on the spectrum, it means that their range basically consists of either monsters or trash and nothing in between. Hope that helps
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Nov 9, 2008 01:59
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/505557 i mean, it'd be pretty bad in a 25/50 game with a bunch of regulars but at 1/2 its just loving awful. you don't need to make plays like this to be a big winner. just fold and move on.
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Nov 9, 2008 01:59
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M E A T Y posted:Not to pick on you but I've seen you make this mistake before, polarizing doesn't mean pinpointing someones range at some point on the spectrum, it means that their range basically consists of either monsters or trash and nothing in between. Hope that helps No worries, I understand I sometimes misinterpret nomenclature. I also am not adverse to criticism. If I gently caress something up, I want to know.
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Nov 9, 2008 02:03
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niknik posted:http://weaktight.com/505557 If you want to balance your range in spots like this then I like the idea of choosing some specific hands to do it with. 78d and 78h are my "bluff hands". I'll 3bet and 4bet bluff those in any spot that isn't totally burning money. I'm sure it's not optimal, but it's probably better than never bluffing at all. It also keeps me from levelling/tilting myself into making lovely bluffs or playing too passively.
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Nov 9, 2008 02:22
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Eratik posted:If you want to balance your range in spots like this then I like the idea of choosing some specific hands to do it with. 78d and 78h are my "bluff hands". I'll 3bet and 4bet bluff those in any spot that isn't totally burning money. this is the sort of spot where you really REALLY dont need to balance your range at all, and like ec10 said, should just fold and move on to the next hand edit: so not bluffing at all is optimal here
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Nov 9, 2008 09:28
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ok here is a pretty stupid/crazy hand i played today at 5/10. villain is sorta reggish, i see him playing 2/4 to 5/10 6max practicing the stefan prodan school of poker and playing anything that's good. his stats are 20/16 with a 13% call open from the bb over 3.9k hands, but these are all mined stats -- i have never played with him before. Seat 1: peterjenning ($1095 in chips) Seat 2: Money248 ($574.85 in chips) Seat 3: mkgringo ($1022 in chips) Seat 5: mals23 ($287 in chips) Seat 6: MuckeDBoY ($1000 in chips) Money248: posts small blind $5 mkgringo: posts big blind $10 suz2209: sits out *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to peterjenning [Jd 3d] mals23: folds MuckeDBoY: folds peterjenning: raises $15 to $25 Money248: folds mkgringo: calls $15 *** FLOP *** [Qs Ad 6s] mkgringo: checks peterjenning: bets $45 mkgringo: raises $105 to $150 peterjenning: raises $175 to $325 i raise the button small here which i do with a wide variety of hands now (raising buttons is so money). flop i make a standard cbet and he c/rs. i decide to 3bet here because i don't think he's defending here with aq (he would prob 3bet) or a6, and i think it's a bad spot for him to check raise a lone ace here (i might be wrong). if he has a flush draw or a gutty, my small 3bet looks like a two pair or ace that is just never folding so he has no fold equity. thoughts?
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Nov 9, 2008 19:55
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bbc what it dew posted:ok here is a pretty stupid/crazy hand i played today at 5/10. villain is sorta reggish, i see him playing 2/4 to 5/10 6max practicing the stefan prodan school of poker and playing anything that's good. his stats are 20/16 with a 13% call open from the bb over 3.9k hands, but these are all mined stats -- i have never played with him before. Well, if his lone ace is the A  , even if he's not suited all the way through, I can see a c/r here from him. I like your bet. Anything middle of the road should probably be giving it up. However, what do you do if he just flats though? Would he ever flat your 4-bet because of it's size? What kind of hands do you think he might contemplate flatting with and how do you continue on the turn? Another question, not directly related to this hand. When you guys state someone is a reg, or reggish, do you automatically assume he is a thinker because of his stakes or when you are away he game selects? Or do you still wait to see how he plays hands against you before reaching that conclusion?
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Nov 9, 2008 23:01
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Teppec posted:Well, if his lone ace is the A If I'm marking someone a regular, I should already know how he plays. I haven't posted in awhile, but I'm moving up to NL200 (decided it was silly to play NL100 with 70 buy ins). This hand seems 100% standard, right? POKERSTARS GAME #677011420000030: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/11/06 - 19:37:36 (ET) Table 'Cake_ Seville 11420' 6-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: doyl*** ($254.80 in chips) Seat 2: *McL*** ($323.00 in chips) Seat 3: numb*** ($1,016.00 in chips) Seat 8: OMGB*** ($213.35 in chips) Seat 9: GoVo*** ($200.00 in chips) Seat 10: z8myFACE ($429.95 in chips) *McL***: posts small blind $1 numb***: posts big blind $2 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to z8myFACE [A T ]OMGB***: folds GoVo***: folds z8myFACE: raises $5.00 to $7.00 doyl***: folds *McL***: folds numb***: calls $5.00 *** FLOP *** [3  5 A]numb***: bets $10.00 z8myFACE: calls $10.00 *** TURN *** [3 5 A] [J ]numb***: bets $20.00 z8myFACE: calls $20.00 *** RIVER *** [3 5 A J] [K]numb***: bets $30.00 z8myFACE: calls $30.00
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Nov 9, 2008 23:41
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http://cakepoker.com//HandHistory/?Hand=xcLDzcTFxcPBw8TExMfHx4jFw8PAwcI%3d I'm on the button and have TT. First of all, what % of the time should I be 3betting this vs. an UTG raiser? I tend to raise JJ here 90% of the time but TT I decided to flat here since 10/20 is higher stakes than I normally play nowadays so I decided to set mine or try for an overpair instead. Second, the turn/river decisions: Villain (Palin4Prez) is a tight reg who someone called spewy in the 2p2 cake thread, but I have no other information than that and I don't know under what circumstances they find him spewy. I can possibly see him check/calling flop with like an unimproved AK given that my range is so wide here betting after everyone has checked, but donking on the turn seems very weird. It's hard for me to put him on a hand, since I don't think a smaller pair would turn their hand into a bluff like this. I thought if I flatted I could very easily represent an ace also and he would play more "honestly" on the river since I could have very easily backed into an ace and be calling here, and when he bet again on the river I was pretty sure I was beat. Should I have just folded the turn? Or even called the river? The first seems to weak and the second seems too loose given that I could really easily have an ace here. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Nov 10, 2008 |
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Nov 10, 2008 02:40
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Stefan Prodan posted:Nosebleed stakes that has blinds that are half my buyins. Those stakes are a quite a bit above where I play but here goes. First, I am assuming you have minimal to no history with him, and I don't read 2p2. So just assume he's what you said, a tight reg. Given that you just flatted preflop, your range IS pretty wide. Hrm, if he thinks you could have a wide range of middle pairs, on top of a variety of potential aces, and possibly trash or big overs like kq/kj/qj, I don't think that turn bet is really that wierd at all. You bet 2/3rds pot on flop against four people in position. He could have thought you were trying to just pick it up right there on the flop with something marginal so came along with his ak/aq. When the ace comes, he bets smallish, like 60% pot, and it looks like a fishing bet to me. When you come along, if he's got something like ak/aq, he might figure you for a smaller ace or someone with a hand like you had (77-TT) who might call the river as well if you think he was bluffing at a wierd turn card. I don't mind your turn call, but I think it's an easy hand to get away from on the river for the same reasons you stated. Hard to think he'd bluff both turn and river OOP with that board and the way it was played. Ranma4703 posted:Hand stuff I would think most better aces would consider raising you preflop, so your hand is most likely best. No reason to really raise because your ace isn't that good, and no reason to fold because your ace is still pretty good given preflop betting, how that flop looks, and your position. I might consider raising turn, but it looks like you are just trying to control the pot size so I think it's fine.
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Nov 10, 2008 04:08
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Stefan Prodan posted:http://cakepoker.com//HandHistory/?Hand=xcLDzcTFxcPBw8TExMfHx4jFw8PAwcI%3d I think your play is fine the whole way here
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Nov 10, 2008 04:57
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Stefan Prodan posted:http://cakepoker.com//HandHistory/?Hand=xcLDzcTFxcPBw8TExMfHx4jFw8PAwcI%3d I'm a newb but, for what it's worth, I think he could have AK/AQ or a monster here a lot of time. Betting half the pot and getting called means that you definitely could have an ace, and the push just seems to me like he wants to get paid off because he probably thinks you're never folding. The other possibility, of course, is that it's a floaty 2-barrel bluff, but if he's "not spewy" then I'd count the possibility of this as low. I also wouldn't rule out pocket 33 or 44, as those are both good hands to semi bluff with on the turn. Either way, I think you made a good fold, as I don't think you're beating him often enough to call. If it were me, I'd probably reraise to like 1000 if I really didn't think he had the ace, and if he called just give up unless a ten hit the river. Curious - were you calling any bet on the river? What size would you call up to? What's his river aggression? Flatting on the turn seems silly to me.. raise or fold. But I play 10/20 moon money and you play 10/20 DOLLERS so yeah.
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Nov 10, 2008 06:05
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