|
Stefan Prodan posted:Sorry, I was typing that while playing and mistyped some stuff. I cannot ever see anyone here not having AA unless there is some kind of strange history between CO/BTN and even then it would be really weird for them to get out of line once you 4-bet over their raises because now if they were screwing around they need to actually play normally. That being said if the button has AK I don't see why he wouldn't be shoving to trying and get you to lay down QQ/JJ or whatever hand it is they think you would 4-bet with in the BB. In general I think I would only muck if seeing them both flip up AK or JJ would not cause me to commit suicide. Otherwise you're only 150bb deep, and you can still suck out on AA!
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2008 21:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 13:42 |
|
|
I think you actually can fold that spot Stefan. 150 deep against a reg-like guy in a fullring game making a ~min5bet after getting cold 4bet, that is about as strong as it gets. On the last hand I posted, I think I like c/c'ing turn and then betting the river to make my line look kinda bluffy while still getting value from bluffs on the turn. I don't think the A is ever going to hit him hard, he might make TP but with a bad kicker. So I don't like c/r'ing. I do think he has a lot of gutshot type hands on the turn though so I think betting small and then c/r'ing the river might be a decent play. If I had a read that he could peel spots like that and then bluff once I check the river I think that would be my play of choice, but without many reads I think just checking and hoping he tries to rep the A with his gutshot hands is a better play.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2008 22:29
|
|
|
Stefan Prodan posted:Button is a generally tight uncreative player and cutoff is an "okay" regular. I think you and strong and zero are right. If there is ever a spot where you could drop it, this is it. Given, of course, you are staying away from razorblades for awhile afterwards. I think reads don't really matter here, even though you have some on these guys. Once you get 5 bet and then a shove over after you 4-bet from the SB, as sexy as KK is, it feels decidedly less sexy. I'm with you, I am not gay and I probably crying shove and start to pray it's not AA and AK in front of me and I have one out, but it's a spot where I can see folding it being ok, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2008 23:16
|
|
|
Well, cutoff had AA and button had KK also. Good times.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2008 23:48
|
|
|
Stefan Prodan posted:Well, cutoff had AA and button had KK also. Good times. So you hit a flush right? Right? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2008 23:52
|
|
|
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 1,370,754 games 0.062 secs 22,108,935 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 01.761% 01.17% 00.59% 16017 8120.00 { KcKd } Hand 1: 96.478% 96.33% 00.15% 1320384 2096.00 { AdAh } Hand 2: 01.761% 01.17% 00.59% 16017 8120.00 { KhKs } ---
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2008 06:26
|
|
|
Posting this on behalf of a friend, and typing it in because Cake's hand history thing is broken right now. Cake NL4 (.02/.04) NL 6max table, all seats occupied. Villian has been raising almost every single hand from almost any position and has shown a willingness to get it in very light (e.g., middle pair medium kicker on the flop, naked flush draws, sucking out multiple times). Relevant stacks: Hero (29.95 ~ 750BB) Villain (14.61 ~ 350BB) Hero UTG with A  K , villain in the BBHero raises to 0.14. folds to villain, who flat calls. Flop A  3 2 Pot is .3Villain donks out 0.25 Hero raises to 0.6 Villian reraises to 2.00 Hero shoves to 29.21 Villain calls the rest of his stack Turn 9 River 8 I (and my friend, who I believe is lurking but won't post for reasons only he understands) would like to know: 1) Should Hero just call down assuming villain continues to donk out three streets? 2) What's the worst hand villain can reasonably have for his 3bet on the flop? 3) What's the worst hand villain can reasonably have to call the shove on the flop? His previous light shoves were never close to this deep, for what it's worth. Also, his actions, while light, were always made when he had fold equity, never when he was calling. 4) Any other thoughts on this NL4 (LOL) hand? RESULTS: Villain had Q3 with two diamonds and got there, again. Pokerstove says this is within half a percent of a coinflip. Humper fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Nov 19, 2008 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2008 07:46
|
|
|
Hmm, weird spot so deep vs a maniac. First of all the flop raise should be bigger, probably around $1. After you get 3bet though I don't think I like shoving really. You say that he has shown a willingness to get it in light, does that mean he can 3bet call the flop with AT? If he can get it in light in that sense, then we probably can't really fold this. I am pretty inclined to think that hands like Ax are not in his range for the flop action though given the huge stack sizes. I think we're most likely in a way behind/slightly ahead spot so if we are going to put all the money in I think it will be a good idea to wait for a safe turn where our equity goes way up. It will also let him continue bluffing if he is that crazy. Overall this is just a sick spot 350bb's deep against a maniac and it's one where we probably can't make a good decision without specific and subtle reads.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2008 08:44
|
|
|
yeah i'd raise the flop a bit bigger and then flat the 3bet. then i'm getting it in on most turns
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2008 13:02
|
|
|
http://www.pokerhand.org/?3478831 I call turn because his range can have a good number of flush draws or double barrels, but I don't think my hand is good very often given his bet sizing. I sat down recently, so I don't really have any reads. http://www.pokerhand.org/?3478836 He is betting 25 into 34, and I think he hit his J. Didn't have many reads on him at the time, but seemed bad. Not super aggressive. That is just such a terrible turn card for him versus my range, that I think for him to be betting it he has to be strong. http://www.pokerhand.org/?3478840 River bet is for value, pot is around 23. I made it big so it would look bluffy and because I think he bets most of his Jx on the turn, so his range should be tilted towards weaker hands.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 03:08
|
|
|
First hand I am folding PF especially against an UTG open. As played, yeah you should probably fold the river. I might think about calling if we knew the player at all because I really don't think a lot of TAGs are valuebetting TPTK or anything less here all that often. I think it could also be a good spot to turn your hand into a bluff if we knew he was capable of making folds and Vbetting lots of hands. On the second one I like the PF flat if there are loose squeezers behind you, even if not it's an OK spot to flat because you definitely tip your hand strength by 3betting from UTG+1. I don't think folding is an option here with no reads, he can easily just be betting an ace again because he still has top pair. It will be tough on the river if he bets kinda big and maybe then we can think about folding but on the turn your hand is way under repped and his range is definitely wide enough to warrant a call. I definitely like the river bet in the 3rd one, although I think I am betting the turn a good amount of the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 08:06
|
|
|
In micro stakes should you just fold KK if you 3bet a raiser and a different player 4bets you after that? It seems that 4 bet bluffing doesnt happen a whole lot and unless the guy is liberal with reraising pre (just sat down at the table so no reads on the guy) a 4bet almost always means AA or KK in micro. And if you have KK the other guy probably has AA. Anyways, I'm still waiting to be on the good side of KK vs. AA =(
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 12:23
|
|
|
seniorservice posted:In micro stakes should you just fold KK i NEVER I remember the first time somebody folded to my raise and showed me KK. I had AK.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 14:18
|
|
|
I got in to a discussion about micro last night, and eventually showed some people my NL20 graph for no particular reason other than the hilarity of my blue line. My question is, I know this represents certain kinds of leaks in my game, and I am already at work at patching some of them. However, I would love to hear what other people think this graph represents in terms of leakage, since I am sure that I missed things. And like everyone else here, I want to improve.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 19:44
|
|
|
Teppec posted:My question is, I know this represents certain kinds of leaks in my game, and I am already at work at patching some of them. However, I would love to hear what other people think this graph represents in terms of leakage, since I am sure that I missed things. And like everyone else here, I want to improve. Nice table breaking. One thing that I pick out of this is that since all of your winnings are coming from not showing down, you're essentially only getting called when they have monsters and are therefor behind. Obviously from your graph though you're getting way more than enough folds to counter this. One thought would be perhaps you aren't getting enough river value bets paid off and need to work on the size so that you'll get called more often when you have do have the better hand?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 19:57
|
|
|
Humper posted:Posting this on behalf of a friend, and typing it in because Cake's hand history thing is broken right now. Why don't you just flat his flop 3-bet then decide what you want to do on the turn? If you're not folding AK on this board then it's probably better to wait the turn when the flush doesn't hit and start pumping the pot with only one card to come. He has a hand that he either needs to see both streets cheaply for or get all the money in as soon as possible since you are both technically "deep." 4-bet shoving here is only getting called by hands with good equity against TPTK and getting him to fold almost everything else. I mean I guess he will call you here with AQ/AJ/AT because of the limits but that's a way smaller percentage of his range.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 20:28
|
|
|
ultimatemike posted:Nice table breaking. I know my betsizing is a giant gaping hole in my game and something I am trying to get a better grasp of. I know some of my messed up betsizing in those spots comes from misreading the strength of peoples hands, either by not vbetting when I should, or vbetting too much and not getting calls. Also, with a red line that high vs everything else, would that indicate that I am being too agro in general? I mean, I think I do ok with picking decent spots to bet/fold alot, which is where I think alot of that is coming from. However, isn't it generally pretty common to have the blue line be the high line and the red line be much lower?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 20:39
|
|
|
Teppec posted:I know my betsizing is a giant gaping hole in my game and something I am trying to get a better grasp of. I know some of my messed up betsizing in those spots comes from misreading the strength of peoples hands, either by not vbetting when I should, or vbetting too much and not getting calls. Also, with a red line that high vs everything else, would that indicate that I am being too agro in general? I mean, I think I do ok with picking decent spots to bet/fold alot, which is where I think alot of that is coming from. However, isn't it generally pretty common to have the blue line be the high line and the red line be much lower? Not necessarily being too aggro - they're obviously folding to it. And you can't really call it a "leak" when it's the entire winning component of your game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 21:21
|
|
|
http://weaktight.com/531933 No reads on flee in particular, but the table in general was very loose and fairly passive. When I got on it it had 7 players and something like 74% seeing the flop. It's calmed down a bit. I think I should be raising more like 18 on the flop to see if I can't entice some more money into the pot. I'm not comfortable with a c/r here because I've seen several hands get checked around multiway on this table and the last thing I want is to give the FD a free chance to get there. When he calls the flop I put myself way ahead because anything that beats me(and probably more than a few things that don't) are definitely raising. Turn is a blank so I'm just trying to get his money in as fast as I think he'll call it. River doesn't scare me as I don't see any fives in his range. If he had flopped a set I think I'm getting raised on the flop or turn about 99% of the time at this limit, and I just don't see bottom pair being so happy to call off over half their stack.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 21:33
|
|
|
5463 posted:NEVER Yeah but this is micro stakes we're talking about here, people don't really four bet with AK =/ At least on stars they don't.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 21:39
|
|
|
ultimatemike posted:Not necessarily being too aggro - they're obviously folding to it. I more meant my betsizing is a huge leak. I don't think being agro is bad, but being overagro can and does cost me in spots where I should be having gains, hence the downslope that is my win with showdown and knowing I 3-barrel in spots where I don't need to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 21:45
|
|
|
Teppec posted:I got in to a discussion about micro last night, and eventually showed some people my NL20 graph for no particular reason other than the hilarity of my blue line. Very standard now days to make your winnings from non SD pots. You need a preflop style that aids this though, otherwise its not sustainable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2008 22:17
|
|
|
NL50 heads up on Cake (lost the HH, sorry). opponent is a complete spaz and is down about 3.5 buyins so far. He's been pretty bluffy and has pushed one-pair hands WAY too hard imo. I pick up J9o on the button and raise to 1.5, he calls. Pot is 3. Flop J 92. He checks, I bet 2, he calls. Pot is 7.Turn A . He checks, I bet 5.5, he calls. Pot is 18.River 8 . He instantly donks out 18.50.He could definitely play QT this way, or AJ, or A9, but he could also have Ax. He has floated me on the flop with JACK HIGH NO DRAW on coordinated boards before. Should I call this because there are more combinations of Ax hands, because LOL folding 2pair HU, or is this a tank-fold? Can I ever raise this for value or would that be ultra-spew? Results: I tank-called and he showed AT. He insta-quit me saying "you run too good"
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2008 00:14
|
|
|
Humper posted:NL50 heads up on Cake (lost the HH, sorry). Well, quoting your post revealed your spoiler. But I was going to say call, because there are a lot of AX hands that will value bet assuming you have a J, the draw whiffed, and 89/J8 are both betting, and the range of hands that beat you is retardedly small.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2008 00:34
|
|
|
That spot would be a little tough at the beginning of a match but with that history snap call it. I think J9 is real close to the cutoff point for value raising, but it depends just how call stationy he is with just one pair here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2008 00:43
|
|
|
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xcLNx8TFxcDBxMTExcPEwIjFxsPCxMw%3d Once he checks back the turn, he rarely has a K. I called him with A high.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2008 01:06
|
|
|
Ranma4703 posted:http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xcLNx8TFxcDBxMTExcPEwIjFxsPCxMw%3d no offense but i don't agree and don't like the call at all, this isnt hu
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2008 03:14
|
|
|
http://weaktight.com/542035 Weird spot today against a fish. He was really loose preflop with limping and cold calling, didn't raise too aggressively though. His stats are around 50/16. He has been mainly passive after the flop but I have noticed that he had a habit of donking into the PFR with mid pair type hands for full pot, he would then check/call the turn. Besides that he has mainly been c/c'ing after the flop and hasn't been too spewy, just very call stationy. I saw a hand where he flopped a set and checked it down OOP all the way even when the PFR put no action in on the flop or turn, and the board was pretty dry. So I know he likes to slowplay, so I think it is a little out of the ordinary to donk into me for full pot here on the river with a big hand. The betsizing doesn't tell me anything because all of his bets have been pot sized so far. Anyone hero call this? Are you guys betting the turn? I think the king is going to kill a little action against a player like this so I bet pretty small so he could continue with weak pairs and draws. I'm kinda regretting posting this now because the river action seems like an easy fold but I already typed all this up so I'll leave it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2008 05:29
|
|
|
ZeroStar posted:http://weaktight.com/542035 He has the five, throw it away and call it a day. I can't think of any other hand he check/calls flop and turn but donks river with here. Not for a fishy station.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2008 05:38
|
|
|
Ranma4703 posted:http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xcLNx8TFxcDBxMTExcPEwIjFxsPCxMw%3d Meh, I'd need a read he's agro enough to bet a draw here. I'm betting JJ/QQ for value on this river, soooooo thats where I think his hand range lies and these guys bet midpair all the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2008 17:10
|
|
|
I was playing 1-2NL with a $300 buy-in at one of the local casinos here in Vegas. I have $320 in front of me. Opponent has $270ish. I open raise to $11 in MP A QSB calls. (SB is loose, sees a lot of flops, decent post-flop play) Flop: K J10SB bets $10 I raise to $35 SB calls Turn: 7 SB bets $55 I thought about it for awhile, and I can remember a time before where he bet his draw like this, and as he called my raise, I put him on a flush draw. When it came in and he instantly bet, I thought about it for a minute, and then folded. I think I should have made a bigger raise on the flop so as to not give the flush draw proper odds. Any help on this hand would be greatly appreciated. I'm still learning and gaining experience. However, I have been doing rather well since tourists here in Vegas love to give their money away at these low-limit games.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2008 22:35
|
|
|
cregets posted:I was playing 1-2NL with a $300 buy-in at one of the local casinos here in Vegas. I have $320 in front of me. Opponent has $270ish. I raise flop a lot bigger - I think the pot is around 43, so I'd raise to 50. Low limit live games, people won't fold much, and there are a lot of pair + oesd and two pair hands on this flop, but a lot of turns will hurt your action. I call the turn and fold river I think. LuckySevens posted:Meh, I'd need a read he's agro enough to bet a draw here. I'm betting JJ/QQ for value on this river, soooooo thats where I think his hand range lies and these guys bet midpair all the time. I'm not sure if it is true at NL200, but at NL100 no one is betting JT there for value, they just don't value bet thin at all (most people would bet turn, check behind river with AK, they hate value). Obviously this guy was, so I may have to adjust my calling ranges at these stakes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2008 03:51
|
|
|
Crossposted from my BRAND NEW BADBEATS.COM POKER BLOG: http://www.pokerhand.org/?3503349 On the flop, when he checkraises I put him on some sort of combo draw like the Ace-high flush draw, or exactly 77 or 55, or air some of the time (which I think is a decent amount on this board). 77 or 55 are going to be fairly rare, so I think the ace-x of hearts and air dominate his range, especially on such a relatively dry board. I think AQ might play like this on the flop but most people would 3bet it from the blinds so I discount that somewhat. Ditto for QQ which I don't think he ever has here. Instead of coming back at him and possibly getting shoved on by the ace-high flush draw I decide to flat and flat a safe turn and hope he will check/fold the river. This is a line I got from aba from one of his videos where he says that this line has brought him a lot of money and that nobody ever goes for a check/call line on the river with a big hand so if they check the river you know you can pretty much steal away with a huge success rate. My main consideration was how much of the time he would bet turn and also shove river with a missed draw and I would have to fold, but I sort of assume that without a read on me he wouldn't do something like that enough of the time that I'm losing significant equity after I call the flop and turn. I am not sure what I was planning on doing with the turn, I would probably bet if checked to and fold to a checkraise after barfing. I'm not sure this is the right line though. Either way, the river came with basically a perfect card since it changed nothing as far as the draws and made it even less likely he actually had a hand, since at this point he'd basically have to have exactly 55 since there's only one combination of 77 left in the deck. When he bet $95 into such a large pot, I sort of figured he was putting me on either having a queen or a busted flush draw. If I had a busted flush draw, I would fold for $95 and if I had a queen he would only lose $95, not a big deal. I thought about it for awhile, since it seems like I have no fold equity whatsoever, but I'm risking $250 to win about $500, so he only has to have air 33% of the time here for me to see a profit. Of course, if I put him on air, then I should just flat because my AK is good. However, I think there's a decent chance that his "air" could be something like a small pocket pair or like 56 where he's bluffing with the best hand, so I decided to go for the shove and it worked. Again I'm not sure I completely played the hand correctly, but I think there's some interesting decisions there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2008 17:01
|
|
|
I am all about the unorthodox lines but this is probably the worst hand ever. I think flop is spewy with no reads, but if you call flop putting him mostly on draws you really need to ship the turn when they dont get there. You called the turn probably without taking into account the size of the pot on the river, which is such that nobody EVER bet/folds and people rarely check/fold. You got extremely lucky here on the river because I am pretty sure this is like the 1% of the time you can pull this entire hand off successfully. One important thing to note about floating on this board is to estimate your equity vs his range. If he has a flush or straight draw, he also has 2 live pair cards which means you end up putting in $78 on the flop as a coinflip at best. Similarly, if you ship the turn (which is infinitely better than calling) you will run into his big hands a few times, and his odds wont even be that bad if he has some kind of combo draw to bet/call. The overall risk of this play is far too high compared with its chance for success and its much better to bet/fold the flop.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2008 17:38
|
|
|
What about if the board contained no flush draws such that he would have to have like basically a set or not even a flush draw? I'm not sure why I didn't just ship the turn, I guess I probably should have though. Assuming I did though, you don't think anyone ever plays a busted flush draw this way, trying to move me off if I have a busted draw myself cheaply and bet/folding river? Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Nov 26, 2008 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2008 18:17
|
|
|
I won't comment on the whole hand but I do agree that people will take that river line with a busted draw. I think it has become kinda popular now because it has been talked about a good deal in some DC videos, which basically explains that in some spots like that straightforward players will fold the same range of hands for a tiny bet as they will for a regular sized bet. So I can definitely see him trying to get you off of a hand like Ahxh with a bet like that, and I don't think it is very likely that he is making an inducing bet because I think your hand looks mainly like a marginal made hand like KQ here. If he had a big hand I think he would just go for max value and shove most of the time, especially since some draws miss and some people might hope to rep a missed draw.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2008 19:03
|
|
|
http://www.pokerhand.org/?3511423 I had him on AA/KK. He was fairly loose, had been 3/4 betting alllllll day long preflop, but slowed down on the flop. I figured it would be the same, but he opens up with 30 and I just felt he finally had hit a big hand. It was VERY possible he had something around AJ... at least in my mind. He had been showing hands like KQ suited, 99, etc. I should have shoved preflop, right?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2008 05:22
|
|
|
Well first of all you need to 3bet more. You can just pot it in position, and if you were OOP make it a few blinds more. Don't know if that was a misclick or something but there is not much point to 3betting the amount you did. You can probably get QQ in preflop pretty profitably against this guy if he is 4betting for value with stuff like KQ and 99, but I'm not really sure how wide his range is here or what he will call your shove with. Especially since this is a fullring game, against a normal player at 100nl getting QQ in preflop will be a little marginal I think. But as long as you are sure this guy is 4betting pretty light and he might even stack off kinda light preflop then yeah I am just getting this in pre. Once you actually get to the flop here it is a pretty weird spot with your read that he is passive after the flop. There is like $85 behind and $53 in the pot, I think you are going to need a pretty drat good read on this guy to fold an overpair. So for example if you had seen him getting out of line preflop a good deal but then give up on a few flops, that isn't enough for me and I'm still getting it in here. He can be betting lower pairs like 99-TT for protection here, and some missed hands as well. So it really just comes down to how confident you are in your read. If you really feel that he will never bet AK, 99-TT, or any other worse hand here then go ahead and fold. If there is any doubt in your mind though I would just stick it in or call/call against a guy like this who can get to the flop here with a wide range.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2008 07:04
|
|
|
Crazy: Can you explain how you determined your preflop 3bet size? It helps to understand what you were thinking so we can show you why it probably isn't a good mindset.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2008 19:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 13:42 |
|
|
Too nitty? POKERSTARS GAME #698011752000029: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/11/27 - 13:30:25 (ET) Table 'Cake_ Seville 11752' 6-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 2: theM*** ($488.70 in chips) Seat 3: 7sToHeaven ($200.00 in chips) Seat 8: winf*** ($296.00 in chips) Seat 9: evo1*** ($292.95 in chips) Seat 10: CAPK*** ($200.00 in chips) evo1***: posts small blind $1 CAPK***: posts big blind $2 theM***: posts small & big blinds $3 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to 7sToHeaven [A K]theM***: checks 7sToHeaven: raises $8.00 to $10.00 winf***: folds evo1***: folds CAPK***: folds theM***: calls $8.00 *** FLOP *** [2 3 5]theM***: checks 7sToHeaven: checks *** TURN *** [2 3 5] [4]theM***: checks 7sToHeaven: bets $15.00 theM***: calls $15.00 *** RIVER *** [2 3 5 4] [3]theM***: bets $51.00 7sToHeaven: folds *** SHOW DOWN *** theM*** collected $52.00 from pot theM***: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $54.00 | Rake $2.00 Board [2c 3h 5s 4s 3d] Seat 2: theM*** collected ($52.00) Seat 3: 7sToHeaven folded on the River Seat 8: winf*** folded before Flop Seat 9: evo1*** (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 10: CAPK*** (big blind) folded before Flop
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2008 19:54
|
|