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Mods and custom maps are the best griefing material. A very popular Warcraft 3 custom map called Wintermaul was basically a group tower defense map except the tower positions weren't set in stone. One tower you could build did poo poo damage, but permanently "froze" the attacker, making him immobile. The rounds did not end until every attacker was dead, so basically you could freeze an entire wave with these towers and it'd take about a half hour to kill them. Needless to say, they added a kicking function in soon after. Another mod I loved to grief was a source mod called Empires. One player on each side was a commander, and played the game like an RTS, building foundations for the engineers to construct, and everyone else played it like an FPS. It was basically the source equivalent of Savage. The commander had a command vehicle, which he had to be in to get into RTS mode. One thing that was fairly popular was "nine-mining", where a grenadier able to plant mines would sneak over to the enemy's vehicle, plant eight mines next to it (the commander is oblivious to this in RTS mode), run away, and plant a ninth, simultaneously detonating the other eight. FF was usually off, but the explosions were always enough to flip your own vehicle over. Whenever this happened, the commander would get out and nine-mine it back over (it took a while for flipped vehicles to die), at which point you could hijack the truck and drive it wherever you wanted to. Another grief you could only do on a one map, but it got an admin called on me. There was an assault map where one team got tons of money to build tanks and the other team just had to hold out with only infantry. There was a huge gate that had to be lowered to let any tank out of your base, and could be raised to prevent spawn camping, even though this normally never happened. If you timed it right, you could raise the gate right when a tank was passing over, which flipped it onto the tank right behind. If you did this enough, the offense would be stunted and if the infantry players on your team sucked enough, the defenders would eventually work their way to your spawn and rape it whenever the gate went down. Keep in mind, the map lasted about half an hour. Finally, last thing I can think of wasn't a grief per se but it was in the source mod the Hidden, where one person's a superhuman invisible mutant playing against a server full of soldiers trying to hunt him down. You could "pigstick" someone, or insta-kill him. Only drawback was that it took two seconds to do, and the soldier would hear the tell-tale whispering into his ear. This really didn't help much, since all they could do was flail around for about a second before being gibbed. People pissed themselves when they heard the whispering on some of the better creepy maps. But simply playing as the Hidden was enough of a grief, since you could pin bodies to walls, or throw them at the survivors, or play mindgames with the last soldier left, or whatever:  Click here for the full 1280x1024 image.
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Jan 26, 2009 05:54
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Sworder posted:It's not much, but on the free MMO "Perfect World" only one player can interact with an object at a time. There's a quest where you need to get to the top of a castle gate, open a chest, and return to the quest giver within 5 minutes, or restart. The chest takes about 10 seconds to open. You spent an hour clicking your mouse once every 10 seconds 360 times with concentration on timing and finesse??? Good show, goon. Make teh pubby tears flow >:]
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Jan 26, 2009 06:14
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LOL you clicked your mouse or something? Way to totally care!!! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2009 06:16
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Heh I'm Totally Wasting These Guys' Time
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Jan 26, 2009 06:22
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ScottP posted:
The best thing on alltalk maps is using HLSS to spam the hiss sound over the mic. You can also do something similar with the critting sound in TF2.
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Jan 26, 2009 06:34
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Breetai posted:The best thing on alltalk maps is using HLSS to spam the hiss sound over the mic. You can also do something similar with the critting sound in TF2.  This enrages me to no end.
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Jan 26, 2009 09:58
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The Strogg Hiss is pretty bad to in Quake Wars as well 
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Jan 26, 2009 15:35
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FAG ON THE FORUMS posted:In Discworld Mud, somebody managed to get back to the Mended Drum (which is basically the center of the world and where the most people will be at any given time) after being killed by a vampire. A very, very long time ago, wrapping paper in discworld could wrap up anything, even things that inherited from /std/living. We never wrapped up a player, but we did wrap several monsters and deliver them outside the Drum. We also wrapped up and buried (destroyed) the lamp-posts on Short Street (the main street) and wrapped up and moved around the pickling stick dispenser in the Unseen University.
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Jan 26, 2009 16:26
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Sworder posted:It's not much, but on the free MMO "Perfect World" only one player can interact with an object at a time. There's a quest where you need to get to the top of a castle gate, open a chest, and return to the quest giver within 5 minutes, or restart. The chest takes about 10 seconds to open. I love how out of proportion the punishment is. GM's freaking the gently caress out and going overboard with their powers is always amusing.
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Jan 26, 2009 17:52
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curious posted:A very, very long time ago, wrapping paper in discworld could wrap up anything, even things that inherited from /std/living. We never wrapped up a player, but we did wrap several monsters and deliver them outside the Drum. We also wrapped up and buried (destroyed) the lamp-posts on Short Street (the main street) and wrapped up and moved around the pickling stick dispenser in the Unseen University. WoW: encouraging user stupidity on the greatest scale of any game, ever.
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Jan 26, 2009 22:02
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Magnum1371 posted:The Strogg Hiss is pretty bad to in Quake Wars as well like this?
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Jan 27, 2009 13:48
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What is that horrible sound and how do I produce it?
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Jan 28, 2009 07:03
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What's in the loving Case!! I hope I have all the details correct. A long time ago, I was a creator on the Discworld Mud mentioned above (same name as here). Another creator, Dogbolter, had decided he wanted to implement two criminals from The Truth, Mr Pin and Mr Tulip. He had written the descriptions and so on, but wanted help in bringing them to life. We decided to take them a bit off the beaten path of the books (which I hadn't read) and make them a bit closer to Quentin Tarantino characters. One thing that they'd do would be to respond to players swearing on the public talker network, chase them down, and shatter both their legs with crowbars (which they carried in special shoulder holsters). They had a few other routines which I sadly forget. What really made them special, though, was that they carried a black briefcase - just like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. Every now and then the character carrying it would open it and glance furtively inside, or check that it was still in his possession, etc. The briefcase was hard to get. Pin and Tulip were hard to steal from (maybe impossible, I'm not sure). You basically had to kill them. Once you did though, there was nothing stopping you from taking their suits, crowbars and yes, briefcase. The briefcase was well described, but it was just a solid lump of mudmatter. You could dial in a three digit combination and attempt to open the lock. The briefcase saved what the dials were set to between logins, so it looked significant. Some players became obsessed with discovering what lay within. Unfortunately for them, the briefcase's code looked something like this: player dials in a number: tell room "(Player) dials the briefcase to (number)." player activates the lock: tell room "(Player) fiddles with the lock on the briefcase. It clicks but remains locked." Yes, there was (of course) no way to get it open. But we sat there, invisible, watching one poor scrub in particular whittle away the best years of his life in the attempt (Discworld had a very hardline stance against botting and triggers, we really suspect he was using the up key on his mud client and retyping the numbers by hand.) (Redacted) the Panda dials the briefcase to 544. (Redacted) the Panda fiddles with the lock on the briefcase. It clicks but remains locked. (Redacted) the Panda dials the briefcase to 545. (Redacted) the Panda fiddles with the lock on the briefcase. It clicks but remains locked. (Redacted) the Panda dials the briefcase to 546. (Redacted) the Panda fiddles with the lock on the briefcase. It clicks but remains locked. (Redacted) the Panda dials the briefcase to 547. (Redacted) the Panda fiddles with the lock on the briefcase. It clicks but remains locked. ... Days later, he approached one of us saying "I tried all the combinations, nothing happened! What gives!!" I asked him if he was sure that he'd had all the combinations - that he hadn't missed one? I could see the despair in his writing as he limped off to try it again. Some time later, Dogbolter added a new item to the garbage tables that are used for players searching in an area (an earlier post by FAG ON THE FORUMS about Holy Relics alluded to this table... small world style, I was the creator who had buffed the hell out of Holy Relics and never realised that people were searching them up until I read that.) - most things find their way into the system because players bury them, so often the assumption is that someone else had it first. It was an open briefcase. It was stuffed with packing foam with funnily shaped depressions inside. The hinges were smeared with jam and the dials were unreadable. The game is full of stuff like this.
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Jan 28, 2009 11:43
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First time I played RA3, with an allied friend vs 2 hard AIs. I built one of those big nuclear power plants in the middle of his huge base without him noticing, then paradropped tesla troopers in and started shooting it. I let him know when it was on about 2 health and in a panic he tried to airstrike my men before the final shot, but the explosions finished off the plant and the ensuing explosion destroyed most of his army and half of his base  2 minutes later we were both steamrolled by the AIs, it was awesome.
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Jan 28, 2009 20:23
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Left 4 Dead is so much fun right when school gets out. I jump off the NM1 roof immediately after loading, and my team dies inside the building at the hole in the floor. I bolt straight out of the NM2 saferoom and down the vent while everyone behind me gets caught, and after burning any downed survivors with a molotov I still make it halfway to the panic event by myself. Guess you had to be there.
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Jan 28, 2009 22:50
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Shumagorath posted:I jump off the NM1 roof immediately after loading, and my team dies inside the building at the hole in the floor. If you jump to the air conditioner (or whatever it is; the thing on the wall on the same side of the building as the street exit) then use your medkit, you can possibly get to the saferoom by yourself, which should really piss them off. Especially if none of them saw how you got to street level without dying.
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Jan 29, 2009 02:29
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curious posted:What's in the loving Case!! This is absolutely hilarious. The thought of the poor sap who went through all the digits twice running across a trashed open briefcase has me tickled pink. MUD's will always have that simple charm and griefability you just can't find in modern MMO's, where even the designers can and will toy with the populace.
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Jan 29, 2009 02:57
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wwqd1123 posted:In battle.net team games of Starcraft, you haven't truly won until you've crushed the other team and back stabbed all of your teammates. I had a roommate back in college who played Starcraft, and one of his friends did as well. So we'd all get online to find a 3x3 or 2x2x2 game, and pretend not to know each other so at least one of us was on each team, but then secretly ally with each other once the game started. Once we got to the right point we'd proceed to tear the unsuspecting marks limb from limb, eventually allying with each other to win the game. Of course, after a while one of us would backstab the other two by de-allying just before the killing blow and drop a devastating sneak attack. It often came in the form of a nuke coming down on the other two teammates' armies as they wiped up the last of the opposition, or a devastating attack on their relatively-undefended bases. I've gotten a reputation for being a "cockroach" - that is, finding a way to stay marginally alive after my main forces and bases have been destroyed, and annoying the poo poo out of the guys trying to kill me off to win the game. Occasionally I did well enough to rebuild a reasonable army, and in a few cases made a comeback and won, but it usually just ended up in annoyance griefing: Hatchery on a random island spitting out the occasional Scourge, single lonely missile tower in the middle of a giant mountain range, pylon built just out of sight of the enemy's mineral patch. In a few cases it went on as long as the match proper and got some really hilarious reactions from the opposing player/s. Of course, now I've had that game played back on me with some ridiculous results as well.
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Jan 29, 2009 07:01
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m2pt5 posted:If you jump to the air conditioner (or whatever it is; the thing on the wall on the same side of the building as the street exit) then use your medkit, you can possibly get to the saferoom by yourself, which should really piss them off. Especially if none of them saw how you got to street level without dying. I thought they removed AC unit in a later patch? I'd like to be mistaken, however, since parachute jumping was a fun pastime when it first came out.
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Jan 29, 2009 07:04
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m2pt5 posted:If you jump to the air conditioner (or whatever it is; the thing on the wall on the same side of the building as the street exit) then use your medkit, you can possibly get to the saferoom by yourself, which should really piss them off. Especially if none of them saw how you got to street level without dying.
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Jan 29, 2009 07:15
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ScottP posted:
gently caress yeah, pinning bodies to the wall in that game is loving hilarious. There's nothing like waiting for a soldier to walk by his dead teamate, and then taking the dead body and pinning it the ceiling as he's right infront of it. Watching them freak out and shoot everywhere is funny.
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Jan 29, 2009 07:20
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about hidden source
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chocolateTHUNDER posted:gently caress yeah, pinning bodies to the wall in that game is loving hilarious. There's nothing like waiting for a soldier to walk by his dead teamate, and then taking the dead body and pinning it the ceiling as he's right infront of it. On the rooftop map, I used to just jump off the ledge rather than help my teammates. They were all gonna die five seconds later anyway. 
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Jan 29, 2009 07:27
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Ok this story isn't mine, it belongs to one of the many griefing websites for Ultima Online. There was a guy named Gil-Galad on the Catskills server, I believe. He was a well known thief and assassin that basically taught me how to camp areas for kills via his screenshot stories. Well back in the old days on Ultima Online, you could name yourself anything, even other peoples names. Well Gil-Galad had this long standing rivalry with this douchey carebear that I forgot the name of. He got some inside information that the guy, who I'm just going to call Brett from now on to clear up confusion, was going on vacation for a week. Gil-Galad proceeds to make a character with the exact hair color, usual wardrobe, and most of all, the same name as Brett. He logged onand made his way to Brett's placed castle outside of Vesper, which was in an unreal expensive location. One of Bretts friends logs on and sees that Brett (Gil-Galad) was home early but for some reason was unfriended from the house. Gil-Galad tricks the friend, who was a co-owner, to friend him to the house and help him move some rare items to his new house on ice island. Since co-owners cant co-own other people, the friend proceeded to unlock everything for Gil-Galad, which he scooped up and moved to his own house. Then for the finale, Gil-Galad paged a GM to report a bugged castle that he owned but wouldn't let him lock anything down in. The GM sees the character Brett, sees the owner of the house, Brett, and puts two and two together and redeeds the house and gives it to Gil-Galad. Gil-Galad then has another friend place a castle in that area to launder the land so to speak. Brett logs on a couple days later and sees all of his poo poo gone. The guy flipped out on his guild and the friend that let Gil-Galad steal everything. There was all this drama on the strat forums about it and the outcome was this: Brett disbands his guild. Brett breaks friendships with any real life friends he was in the guild with. Brett quits and threatens to sue Origins (nothing came about it). GM who gave Gil-Galad the house got fired. Gil-Galad got the money and only a small time in jail for scamming. Since he had a friend place the new house, the spot couldn't be given back to Brett. This guy was seriously my hero when I was 9.
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Jan 29, 2009 07:44
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GoldenDelicious posted:I thought they removed AC unit in a later patch? I'd like to be mistaken, however, since parachute jumping was a fun pastime when it first came out. They removed it in the versus version; it's still there in the campaign version.
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Jan 29, 2009 08:26
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Daltos posted:Brett logs on a couple days later and sees all of his poo poo gone. The guy flipped out on his guild and the friend that let Gil-Galad steal everything. There was all this drama on the strat forums about it and the outcome was this: He griefed so hard he ruined two lives.
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Jan 29, 2009 09:54
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GoldenDelicious posted:I thought they removed AC unit in a later patch? I'd like to be mistaken, however, since parachute jumping was a fun pastime when it first came out. In Campaign it's still there.
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Jan 29, 2009 12:31
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Tin Can Hit Man posted:This is absolutely hilarious. The thought of the poor sap who went through all the digits twice running across a trashed open briefcase has me tickled pink. MUD's will always have that simple charm and griefability you just can't find in modern MMO's, where even the designers can and will toy with the populace. code:yeah I know that the script is probably wrong because I haven't used ZMud in a few couple/few years, but it really wouldn't be tough to bot this and mask it from detection, I used to do it all the time.
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Jan 29, 2009 17:49
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Press F10 to enlarge your penis!!1       In CS:S beta, throwing smoke grenades at someone's head would glitch and never explode, leaving the player stuck for the entire round:  fake edit: sorry for all of the "owned" stuff. I was young and ignorant.
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Jan 29, 2009 19:38
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In Tribes, I used to play Shifter mainly. Sometimes I would play legitimately but I later realized I had much more fun not playing. What I would end up doing every match is buy a portable air base and run off the the furthest, most isolated corner of the map. There I would deploy it, and using the command station in the air base, buy all of the blast walls, all of the laser turrets, everything I could and just fortify the poo poo out of my base. I would also set up a teleporter and hide it best I could near the main base so that I could go back and forth and destroy anything my team managed to set up. Meanwhile, everyone playing the actual game would be trying their best and getting their rear end kicked since because they couldn't put up a defense, since I had bought all or most of the defensible items for my air base, and there are only a limited amount of them. Someone usually ended up finding my base and destroying it though but rare was the day that I played on a winning team.I played a mod called TAC as well in Tribes, where you would die if you touched the ground. Does anyone remember that? It was pretty much the best mod, I had a blast playing it for some weird reason. I also like shooting my teammates in Halo 3, not enough to kill them and risk the boot, but enough to lower their shields and make them easy targets for the other team.
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Jan 29, 2009 19:58
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Lord of Laughton posted:I played a mod called TAC as well in Tribes, where you would die if you touched the ground. Does anyone remember that? It was pretty much the best mod, I had a blast playing it for some weird reason. DERAIL You might be interested to look at the Tribes 2 thread, someone has sorted out some replacement master servers and made a patch for the game - which is available for free.
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Jan 29, 2009 22:21
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Bummersault posted:
Hahahaha, I think the consistency of "owned" after all the quits makes it even better.
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Jan 30, 2009 02:12
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Pleads posted:Hahahaha, I think the consistency of "owned" after all the quits makes it even better. Yeah, this is what I thought too, I was laughing hysterically at those at work. Good job!
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Jan 30, 2009 06:09
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Pleads posted:Hahahaha, I think the consistency of "owned" after all the quits makes it even better. Definitely. Simple but effective.
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Jan 30, 2009 15:15
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Dark Age of Camelot This is pretty much the F10 grief, but for DAOC. At one time DAOC had a command /qtd, short for "quit to desktop". When you entered this command, the game would close completely, without any confirmation popup and you were back at your desktop. There were a lot of people who did not know about this command. Naturally, any time someone asked for help in one of the games broadcast channels, I would tell them /qtd would fix their problem, or it would bring up the help file, etc. What made this one great is /qtd was pretty easily misinterpreted as the game crashing if you didn't know any better, so you could usually get people to do it 3 or 4 times before they started catching on. Another good one from DAOC was to "accidentally" broadcast in /region, fictitious and embarrassing private tells to people I don't like. /region is a broadcast chat that sends your messages to everyone in the zone. If you played WoW, think of it like a more on-topic barrens chat, meant for dissemination of information on enemy movements, where everyone was gathering for defenses, finding groups, etc. by typing "/region t/ell <victim> im not sure im rdy to cyber with u i mean im only 13 and it just feels wrng" Everyone in the zone would see what appeared to be a private tell that was accidentally sent to the wrong channel, that exposed the victim as a child predator. By selling it a little bit you can ruin some reputations, but even if people aren't buying into your particular claim, the victim usually still gets upset enough to start spouting denials and counter accusations that eventually end up with the people in /region bickering for hours over counter-counter-counter accusations that are almost entirely unrelated. Ultima Online My favorite grief in UO was what my buddies and I called House PKing. Sometime in the (Pre T2A?) days of UO, Origin started fleshing out the game's player owned housing mechanics. One patch in particular added in a feature where you could declare your house private or open to the public. Public houses were really more for tradesman who ran vendor shops out of their homes. As such, public house doors could not be locked and anyone could enter a public house without any increased risk to their character. Anyone who entered a private house on the other hand, was declared a criminal (and therefore freely attackable) by owners and friends of the house. Prior to this patch, a house was just a house, and being inside it was no different than being anywhere else on the map in terms of what made you a criminal. This is a good time to mention that your average player apparently does not read patch notes so people remained oblivious to this change in game mechanics for way too long. Our house PKing operation consisted of 4-6 friends and our private small house in the middle of nowhere. One person would be the designated "disgruntled quitter" and everyone else would hide themselves in and around the house and wait. I was usually the quitter and what this entailed was going into a heavily populated town area and crying about how bad the game sucks now! OSI is incompetent! The last patch ruined the game! After a couple minutes I would decide, "you know what gently caress this game. im quitting" ... "who wants all the crap in my house? you can have it all i dont even care any more" Someone always wants the crap in my house. So I'd magic us both to the house and tell our victim to go in and take whatever he can carry. Because the house was private, as soon as the victim set foot onto the house he was attackable to the 5 or so guys hidden in and around it. He'd be killed in seconds, and because he was technically a criminal by being on the property there was no negative repercussion for any of the murderers involved. There were lots of incredulous OoOoOOoooOoooos from people who had no clue what just happened to them. We would take every piece of equipment our victim had on him, and put it in the house. Then I would go to a different populated area and start the whole "gently caress this game i quit" speech again and get some new sucker to step on the house and get killed. Rinse and repeat a whole lot, and we eventually filled the entire house from floor to ceiling with the belongings of the dumbest and greediest players in the game. It was so beautiful. rage at me fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jan 31, 2009 |
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Jan 31, 2009 01:12
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turd posted:Dark Age of Camelot Holy hell that house thing is loving gold. The best griefs are always the ones that use in-game rules and aren't excessively abusive. In that last story, you weren't even exploiting anything about the game itself, the only thing you were really taking advantage of is the average person's stupidity and greed. I never got into Ultima Online and I feel like I really missed out every time I read a story like this. I am so sick of games that try to protect the player from themselves, whether its WOW's layer upon layer of scripted bullshit, Call of Duty's "on the rails" style gameplay that won't let you wander off too much, or just about any other game that seeks to excessively control what its players can do. That sort of "invisible barrier for the good of the player" mentality is kind of an appropriate metaphor for our society in general these days.
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Jan 31, 2009 04:04
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Another good grief my friends and I used to do in Star Wars: Galaxies was a trick we liked to call "Roof Banana" It was similar to the prison one posted earlier, but it was harder to get caught. Some houses had balconies that existed out in the game world- you couldn't place objects out there, but you could go out there to view the outside/beautiful vistas/other crap. We used to have people go out onto the balcony, and then immediately pack up the house and speed away, leaving the person stuck in place in the air (even through logging out/in again) until they could get an admin to come move them. The /unstick command marked the beginning of the end of that game for us. EDIT: Also, I don't remember specifics, but when the Combat Upgrade came out, whenever a character would gain a level, he would explode in a congratulatory lightshow that let everyone know that this dude was a badass. The developers, however, left in a command for us to do this lightshow whenever we wanted! And, better yet, there was no usage delay! Cue macros that spammed the command so fast that most people's FPS dropped to under 5 while you were in the area. Hard Clumping fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 31, 2009 |
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Jan 31, 2009 21:36
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Recently I've been having fun griefing in TF2 by building teleportrs that either take you a couple feet out a door or teleports you backwards to the beggining of a map. The best part is the engineers wrench taunt where he laughs like a maniac. Just chillin' by the exit teleporter, and when some bloke teleports start taunting. It's just so perfect. Engineers wrench taunt (0:48) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JXWQisOCm4
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Feb 1, 2009 16:42
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We should really do a goon rush on second life sometime again, last year was pretty funny. It was all started in this thread btw. Dateline NBC, to catch a predator: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2886637&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=32 Girdox posted:Here's another greifing story from SL. It's about 3 am and for some reason we actually have a decent amount of goons on. We have about 8 all just sitting around chilling (that's pretty good for SL) and someone came up with the idea of hosting Dateline NBC: Second Life. I would go in as an underage girl and take someone to a house we..ah..ahem...acquired and we would get him. Spider invasion: MrDutch posted:I just logged off, we crashed some parties, best was the wedding at the boat, giant spiders led by a nazi spider carrying a flag haha. A week later we tried to crash at virtual mecca. The thing with the giant stone where they go once a year to worship. Idea was to get dressed as flying pigs and crap all over it. I think there even was a virtual fatwa issued by the resident virtual imam, anyway it never took off.
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Feb 1, 2009 20:45
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Bummersault posted:fake edit: sorry for all of the "owned" stuff. I was young and ignorant. Telling people that "unbind all" was the command for the grapple in Quake 2 CTF, was always a good one. Basically, the grappling hook wasn't bound to a key by default, so it was quite common for people new to the game to ask how to use the grapple. "unbind all" clears all of the players key bindings, so they can't do anything in game. As far as I'm aware, "unbind all" should work in games based off the Source engine too. If I recall correctly, the new key bindings get saved to the config file when the game shuts down too, so they'll have to rebind all their keys from scratch on restarting. Good times. The Oid fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 1, 2009 |
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Feb 1, 2009 20:56
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In Runescape, the mining skill is raised off of individual rocks that hold ores. When the ore is mined from a rock, it is gone until it respawns, which takes anywhere from instantaneously with the lower level ores to maybe 5-10 min. Also, since there is only one ore in a rock, if two people mine the same rock, it is a race to see who gets the ore. So I like to go to the mining guild, or another popular mining area, and choose a player and follow him around mining all the rocks that he's mining and stealing the ores from him. It's amazing how pissed off people get that someone is stealing "their" ores from them. Also, would people be interested in playing some game on XBox 360 and spending the entire game singing songs like Bohemian Rhapsody and others in harmony? No knowledge of the lyrics or singing talent required...
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Feb 2, 2009 19:11
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