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quote:The modern Guzzis have come a long way from the dark days of typical Italian reliability, or lack thereof...I owned a SP1000 at one time from the mid 80s and that bike never gave me a moments grief, once I bought it a new battery. A $20 Wal Mart riding mower battery. So is the above poster saying that MGs are unreliable poo poo basically like some 70yr old saying "all them Jap cars are crap, buy a Chevy"? quote:If you can go that high, I'd take a look at a Nevada for $4K. I will admit I've been tempted by the Ducati 695/696 and similar. I really dig the naked look, I'm just not sure I'd be comfortable sitting crouched-over all the time. Plus, odd though it may sound, I just find the notion of sitting with my legs that far back to somehow seem disconcerting. Not that I'm going to put my feet down and stop myself from falling at 50mph, just that somehow it seems less stable. Or is that just a mental hurdle I should promptly address, and give some naked sporters a shot?
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Apr 1, 2009 04:32
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I find the sport riding postion uncomfortable and distracting, other are perfectly happy with it. The bike in the picture was a miserable bitch to ride, until I got it to speed. Over the winter, I removed the fairing and the clip ons, made more of a streetfighter out of it and it was great. Just starting out though, I'd stay with a more standard sit up and beg position. MG went through a period right after Aprilia bought them out where they were pretty bad, that was about '99 to '01 or '02. After that period, they tightened up the QC and the modern bikes are not quite Japanese spec but still pretty good. The Italians bring some attitude to every bike, much more so that Honda. I'd say worth a look.
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Apr 1, 2009 05:31
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MourningGlory posted:There are a couple local dealerships that supposedly offer test rides. I'll see what they can do. All the 600s I've ridden are still drat fast even below their 10k big hit. I think if you go to a new or almost new sportbike you'll find the riding position to be even more extreme than what you get on an SVS which is already pretty humped over. Your requirement of ABS does limit your choices a fair amount, and frankly I don't know which bikes out there offer it. A VFR would be a good option but it doesn't look like they offer the ABS model here in the states. It's probably not worth the effort to try to retrofit it. The only other options I could think of would be a BMW of some sort - maybe the 800ST - but that's probably not sporty enough for what you are looking for.
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Apr 1, 2009 06:19
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n8r posted:A VFR would be a good option but it doesn't look like they offer the ABS model here in the states. It's probably not worth the effort to try to retrofit it. VFRs have had optional ABS for a while. Even before that became an option they've had linked brakes. Fake edit: ABS became available in 2002, with linked brakes for a while longer than that. I've read reviews from American publications that indicate that we do in fact get that option over here. Speaking of linked brakes: Are there any major downsides to that set up for those of us who aren't racing? I've heard complaints from people who like to go really fast that they don't like the fact that the rear triggers when they grab the front, but I don't see myself ever doing more than "moderately spirited" riding on the street.
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Apr 1, 2009 06:43
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Gr3y posted:Speaking of linked brakes: Are there any major downsides to that set up for those of us who aren't racing? I've heard complaints from people who like to go really fast that they don't like the fact that the rear triggers when they grab the front, but I don't see myself ever doing more than "moderately spirited" riding on the street. Super personal thing. But I liked them on my friend's VFR. n'thing the "ride a literbike" bit, too. I loved my 929 but got in way too much trouble on it and had to sell it as a result.
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Apr 1, 2009 06:48
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I like the linked brakes on my VFR as well. I've never noticed the rear braking when using the front. It's pretty funny to hit the rear brake and watch the front dive a bit. About the only complaint is it makes steel braided lines a bit expensive and more of a pain to fit. In addition bleeding the system is a little more complicated. I felt the feedback on the stock brakes for my 2000 were good enough to not need steel braided lines.
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Apr 1, 2009 07:09
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Craigslist searching has yielded two results. Looking at a 1981 Kawasaki 650csr with 32k miles for my first bike. Went to see it, cold-starts fine, needs new front brakes. Tires and all other parts look in great shape, new front shocks, clutch cable, battery. The guy was pretty honest; said if you ride two people over 150 LBS it will bottom out in the back, and it leaks half a quart every 1k. That's cool, I really only want it for one or two summers before I move on to a sv650. There's also a 1986 Honda Nighthawk 450 with 22k for the same price. Good condition. Seeking advice... I'm leaning towards the 650 because it will be able to keep up on the highway and maybe make me pee a little. but the Honda seems like a better deal in all, though I have yet to see it. Honda owner's car is in the shop and currently remains his primary transportation. *fixed  Click here for the full 800x600 image.. 
Drew Tyler fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Apr 1, 2009 |
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Apr 1, 2009 09:44
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The bike in your picture is not the one you describe. 
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Apr 1, 2009 09:48
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Drew Tyler posted:Craigslist searching has yielded two results. Looking at a 1981 Kawasaki 650csr with 32k miles for my first bike. I'd say go for this one. I just finished fixing a 77' KZ650 and its a wonderful bike. Plenty of grunt, makes the right noise when you're on it but a sweetheart when cruising, and the handling is wonderful. Brake pads shouldn't take you longer than five minutes and a screwdriver. If the shocks are bottoming out like that then they need to be replaced or he doesn't know how to set the preload properly. If you do decide to get it then here is where to go for parts: http://www.z1enterprises.com
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Apr 1, 2009 12:03
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pr0zac posted:I had an 07 CBR600RR for about 8 months. It was great around town engine wise. Never felt like I had to wring it to get around or anything. And it would easily lift the front wheel if you gave it too much throttle. Its a noticeable step up from an SV power wise. Gutless.
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Apr 1, 2009 13:32
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MourningGlory posted:There are a couple local dealerships that supposedly offer test rides. I'll see what they can do. From my reading mags and online reviews it seems the triumph daytona 675 is a pretty good bike if you want more low end in a 600. The only thing is it seems that they are uncomfortable as hell. The CBRs get raves for "feeling like it has a big-bore kit" while being rated most comfortable 600 class bike. And there is the GXSR 750, though I don't know if jumping right on one of those is a wise choice (probably not). The older Kawasaki 636s might be worth looking into as well.
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Apr 1, 2009 18:22
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Gnaghi posted:From my reading mags and online reviews it seems the triumph daytona 675 is a pretty good bike if you want more low end in a 600. The only thing is it seems that they are uncomfortable as hell. The CBRs get raves for "feeling like it has a big-bore kit" while being rated most comfortable 600 class bike. And there is the GXSR 750, though I don't know if jumping right on one of those is a wise choice (probably not). The older Kawasaki 636s might be worth looking into as well. Don't forget bikes like the YZF600R. There's an article that compares the powerbands of the R6, R6S, and 600R. The one with the least peak HP makes quite a bit more power up until 10,000 RPM
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Apr 1, 2009 18:50
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8ender posted:I'd say go for this one. I just finished fixing a 77' KZ650 and its a wonderful bike. Should I be too worried about it leaking some oil? I'm used to it, as I drive a Saturn. This is not a Saturn though... How much would I be looking at if I were to fix it up, roughly? Is it worth paying 1,200 for? I found this http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-23-38-5697-0-0-0&l=1&w=23&p=38&f=5698&m=0033&d=1500010206&y=1981&ml=K&gc=AM>c=MC Drew Tyler fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Apr 1, 2009 |
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Apr 1, 2009 19:14
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Bob Morales posted:Don't forget bikes like the YZF600R. There's an article that compares the powerbands of the R6, R6S, and 600R. The one with the least peak HP makes quite a bit more power up until 10,000 RPM Same with the Kawasaki ZX-6E. That bike had a fairly monster midrange for a 600.
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Apr 1, 2009 21:54
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This is apparently within about 15-20 miles of me, and seems like a good deal, but I don't know anything about the bike besides what's typed in the ad. He can't seem to get a picture of his own bike. Worth emailing? Is the '85 ZX550 going to give me a bunch of headaches as a first time bike owner? I'm fairly confident I could get the carb cleaned, if that is in fact the major issue the bike has. "Voltage regulator" sounds like electrical demons to me, but I might be overreacting. http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/mcy/1097904569.html Alternatively, for about double the list price, should I just try and talk this guy down a little? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/mcy/1101536779.html Oooor... this one. I'm really trying to spend under 2000, preferably closer to 1500 or less. Would there be any appreciable difference between a 2004 and a 2007 Ninja 250? http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/mcy/1099393650.html sirbeefalot fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Apr 2, 2009 |
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Apr 2, 2009 04:03
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I'm not sure if I'm being pedantic, other folks are being dumb, or if I'm just not grasping something. Very roughly speaking, the difference between "cruiser", "sporter", and "standard" is the posture of the rider based on peg position and handlebars, right? If the pegs are forward that's a pretty major component of it being a "cruiser", right? Looking at Craigslist and eBay, I see a ton of standards described as "cruisers", some cruisers listed as standards, some standards listed as sporters, etc. Am I not grasping the difference, or are tons of sellers unfamiliar with the terms, or are they just calling standards "cruisers" because cruisers are the trendy thing now and they want potential buyers to think of a CB500 as being just a cheaper Harley? EDIT: Question 2: For Honda and Suzuki, is mileage or age more important? That is, is a CB450 '71 with 5000 miles a better buy than an '82 with 20,000 miles at the same price? For both brands, is there a certain "do not but Japanese bikes made before 19XX", so far as quality/reliability/parts go? I guess I'm asking if I should shy away from buying a 1970ish Japanese bike with low mileage (and that by overall condition looks to have low mileage, as opposed to just fresh odometer). EDIT: Question 3: For Honda CBs, if I value lightweight/manuverable/low-maintenance, should I stick to the twin versions in the CB series, or is there no reason to avoid the 4-cylinders? TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Apr 2, 2009 |
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Apr 2, 2009 04:52
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sirbeefalot posted:This is apparently within about 15-20 miles of me, and seems like a good deal, but I don't know anything about the bike besides what's typed in the ad. He can't seem to get a picture of his own bike. Ok, the first one sets off warning bells...no picture, just needs blah blah blah, must be picked up by a truck...warning signs for a new rider, if you don't have mechanical experience. If you want to learn to wrench before you learn to ride, buy that one. If you want something to just get on and ride, buy the 04 250. It's the same bike as the 07 (model changeover happened in 08), talk him down a few hundred, and ride and be happy. I'd personally go with the 04 250, I started on an 01 250 4 years ago and loved it. It's a wonderful first motorcycle. Tap, people are idiots. That sums up everything. As to your second question, care is much more important than either age or mileage. If the bike is clean and in good shape on the outside, chances are pretty decent that the inside was taken care of...no beater ever had fantastic mechanical care but no care given to the outside...you can learn a lot about a bike and how it was maintained by checking the chain, sprockets, and feel of the cables. Edit for Q3: I like the twins because they feel smaller. The 4s are good too, but twins or singles are where it's at if you want a bike that dances easy...
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Apr 2, 2009 05:00
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:I'm not sure if I'm being pedantic, other folks are being dumb, or if I'm just not grasping something. The problem is "standard" isn't a term people are familiar with. For 99% of the population a bike is either a cruiser or a sport bike. Is there more chrome then plastic? It's a cruiser. Does it have clip ons? It's a sport bike. It's a binary situation for most people. TapTheForwardAssist posted:EDIT: Question 2: As for avoiding certain model years... that's why you do your homework. Even the best model lines occasionally throw out a turd. Maybe they tried something new that year that didn't work, maybe they changed suppliers and it turned out to be a mistake. Find out where the people who enjoy that model hang out on the internet and start asking questions. They'll usually be pretty honest as everyone likes to share their hobbies/addiction. TapTheForwardAssist posted:EDIT: Question 3: If you want lightweight/manoeuvrable look for a twin. We never got the same selection of small I4s the rest of the world did.
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Apr 2, 2009 05:50
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Okay, so still looking at small-frame UJM twins. How is this? http://newjersey.craigslist.org/mcy/1087044126.html 81 SUZUKI GS450L CRUISER FULLY SERVICED - $1499 (NORTH JERSEY) quote:VERY CLEAN GS450 L CRUISER. FULLY SERVICED. NEW OIL AND FILTER. NEW BATTERY. NEW TIRES FRONT AND REAR. NEW AIRFILTER. RUNS AND RIDES EXCELLENT. POWERFUL DUAL CAM MOTOR WITH SIX SPEED OVERDRIVE TRANSMISSION. LOW SEAT HEIGHT OF 28 INCHES. SUPER DEPENDABLE AND RELIABLE. 16K ORIGINAL MILES. COME RIDE AWAY ON IT..... He's been re-listing it all March. If for some odd reason it's still unsold in May I could lowball him. Not that it should last that long, just that I'm idly watching the market before my move. Never been to Jersey, and was vaguely trying to make that the dead-last state to visit, since it's one of only 6 states I haven't been to. But it's close to Philly, so only 2hrs from where I'm moving in NoVA.  Look like a reasonably deal? The one I almost got over the weekend was $1800 for same model with 5,000 miles. That one got grabbed by a cash buyer in bumfuck PA, and also had another eBay bidder outbid me, so the market seems to think $1800 was fair.
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Apr 2, 2009 05:53
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Drew Tyler posted:Should I be too worried about it leaking some oil? I'm used to it, as I drive a Saturn. This is not a Saturn though... How much would I be looking at if I were to fix it up, roughly? Is it worth paying 1,200 for? I found this http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-23-38-5697-0-0-0&l=1&w=23&p=38&f=5698&m=0033&d=1500010206&y=1981&ml=K&gc=AM>c=MC Well I guess it really depends on where the oil is leaking from. If its just from the tachometer cable seal or the valve cover then no big deal, thats easy to fix. Through the head gasket or other places on the engine would be a good deal harder to fix. As for being worth $1200, I'd say probably not that much given its age and apparent oil leaking problems. I'd offer $1000 and see how you do.
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Apr 2, 2009 05:55
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:Okay, so still looking at small-frame UJM twins. How is this? Also, on the cruiser/standard/sportbike thing. Most people know jack poo poo about motorcycles. It's just the same with bicycles. Ask someone what sort of bike they have, and they'll tell you a: the color, or b: the brand. If you're really lucky they'll tell you it's "uh.. 750 cc I think." And there's no year that the Japanese were making lovely bikes. Nerobro fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Apr 2, 2009 |
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Apr 2, 2009 06:05
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Nerobro posted:Did my last post regarding a GS450L completely slip your mind? That's both a better price, and looks to be in better shape. Absolutely no question, buy it. Not at all, I liked the 450 from the first it was mentioned, and your post was just more confirmation of that. It seems to be basically just what I'm looking for. Not quite sure how to go about this though, being that I won't be up in that area for 5-6 more weeks. Should I maybe just make an offer to PayPal a deposit (since I can dispute the charges if he fails to hand over the bike) and see if he's willing to take it off the market and sit on it for a few weeks if I pay asking price? The fact that he's been trying to move it all month might help me there. Minor sidenote: is it easily doable and/or advisable to replace the bars? They just seem really high/prominent and I wouldn't mind something a bit lower for control and flash. Is that a common and acceptable mod on bikes like these? Is bar changes (and replacing the appopriate cables/wires) pretty much a "any fucktard with a proper toolbox" job?
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Apr 2, 2009 06:21
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8ender posted:Through the head gasket or other places on the engine would be a good deal harder to fix. I could see it leaking through the engine for sure. What kind of repairs are we talking, replacing head gasket? I don't know much about motors. Will I be able to continue using it? Like I mentioned in my first post. One or two summers would satisfy my needs.
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Apr 2, 2009 06:24
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:Not at all, I liked the 450 from the first it was mentioned, and your post was just more confirmation of that. It seems to be basically just what I'm looking for. My only concern is that a smoking deal shouldn't hang around for a month. I'd be wary of handing him cash to hold it only to find that he left out something important, like it needing "just a little tlc", or "it's just a gasket", or "it will sexually assault your loved ones in their sleep while you can only watch in horror".
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Apr 2, 2009 06:33
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:Not at all, I liked the 450 from the first it was mentioned, and your post was just more confirmation of that. It seems to be basically just what I'm looking for. Yes, swapping bars is easy. I do it to every bike i buy. It's step one to making the bike fit you.
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Apr 2, 2009 07:18
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Drew Tyler posted:I could see it leaking through the engine for sure. What kind of repairs are we talking, replacing head gasket? I don't know much about motors. Will I be able to continue using it? Like I mentioned in my first post. One or two summers would satisfy my needs. Take a look at the diagram below. The green areas are easy fixes like the valve cover gasket, cam end rubbers, tachometer seal or oil pan gasket. The red area is the head gasket, and if you don't know much about engines I'd stay away from a KZ leaking there. Replacing the head gasket is a pain in the rear end and likely the bike wont run all that well if its leaking there. That said the only common areas I've heard of the KZ650 leaking oil from is that tachometer cable seal and the cam end rubbers.
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Apr 2, 2009 12:06
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Uh.... Mostly no. The top green line does indicate the valve cover gasket. The red line indicates the base gasket, not the headgasket. The bottom green line doesn't indicate anything clearly, but in that area are the oil pan gasket, and clutch cover gasket . Both are rare leaks on any bike. Base gasket leaks aren't that uncommon. But theyr'e also something that doesn't NEED to be fixed. Depending on severity it might just be a little bit of oil weeping. A headgaskets don't exactly leak frequently on an air cooled bike. That also said, replacing the valve cover gasket, and headgasket could be done in three or four hours by someone who's turned any wrenches before. The base gasket takes a little more time because you need to pull the block off the crankcase. Even that isn't a serious ordeal. All of this work can be done in bike, with the motor still installed.
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Apr 2, 2009 12:35
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Excellent! Thank you 8ender and Nerobro. I'm fairly certain the oil was leaking from the top green lines, but I'll ask to go take a second look today. If you have any tech sites for this bike feel free to post, that's my last request. 
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Apr 2, 2009 13:29
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Hi guys, I'm planning on doing the MSF up here in Ontario this summer and want to pick up a bike somewhere around the same time. I have absolutely no riding experience, and while I would strongly prefer to buy a bike after the course/M2 license, I won't pass up a great deal. So with that out of the way, I've been scanning Craigslist for a few weeks and this caught my eye today: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/mcy/1103190627.html 1980 Yamaha XS850 Special - $1700 Strong runner. New rear tire and battery. Front tire also good. Carbs cleaned and synched last season by pro shop. 3 into 1 header with Yoshimura RS-3 exhaust. Photos show original muffler (also included, along with original air box). $1700 OBO as is, or will certify for $1800. It's beautiful  However, would it be too much bike for me? The OP says to avoid >70hp, and this guy puts out 79. On the other hand, I'm a big dude (6'1/250) and the smaller bikes might have trouble getting up to highway speeds with me in tow 
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Apr 2, 2009 18:41
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It's expensive for what it is(well, maybe not for your area), and prone to god-awful electrical problems. Almost any bike will have no problem getting a 250lb rider up to speed. 79hp isn't extravagantly high, but it will definitely scare you the first time you wring it out.
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Apr 2, 2009 18:50
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Dammit, the dude listing the GS450L in the Philly CL is actually in Jersey City, which now that I google it is practically in NYC. I'm setting Philly as the furthest point I'll go to pick up a bike to take back to DC. Not going to go halfway to Boston to pick up a bike that doesn't seem to be terribly uncommon. Feeling pretty solid on specifically looking for that model though, with similar GS and CB twins being a fall-back. About CBs: I frequently see CB250s, like I own, being described as "great for noobs, small females, etc" and totally agree. It'll do every basic task just fine but has limited ability to do dumb/crazy poo poo. 20hp, 270lb bike, top speed 80mph, low enough that probably anyone 5'4" or greater can stand with flat feet. However, as I'm cruising GS/CB CL ads, I see: "Honda CB650. This bike is perfect for beginners, or maybe for the wife or a child who's just starting out." Lessee, 476lbs, 72hp, top speed 110mph. Perfect for the little lady?  Am I just a total fey twerp for starting with a 20hp bike, or is 72hp seem a bit much for "perfect for girly noobs!"
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Apr 2, 2009 19:03
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Don't be shocked - it's not like people don't advertise 600 supersports as 'good beginner bikes' all the time on CL.
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Apr 2, 2009 19:25
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MrKatharsis posted:It's expensive for what it is(well, maybe not for your area), and prone to god-awful electrical problems. I showed it to a goon on MSN right after posting and he said "OH GOD STAY AWAY" and mentioned horrible electrical problems so I guess that's that. About the speed, I've read comments in bike reviews here and there that mention problems getting up to speed with a big rider (in particular regarding the Kawasaki Eliminator).
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Apr 2, 2009 19:45
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Simkin posted:Don't be shocked - it's not like people don't advertise 600 supersports as 'good beginner bikes' all the time on CL. What's their frame of reference then? All manly-men must ride literbikes, bare minimum, to keep from spontaneously ovulating? In my MSF class when the instructor asked "so what bikes are folks planning to buy?", aside from me (250cc) and one middle-aged guy getting a scooter, everyone else was getting 600cc, bare minimum. Most of the older guys planned to, or already had, some Harley in the 700cc or better range (including one guy who couldn't ride at all yet but already had bought an 1100cc), and easily 6 of 10 <40yrs guys there insisted they were getting a GSXR. Then again, I'm curious how much of that was macho bullshit, with most of the young guys buying small Ninjas or whatever.
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Apr 2, 2009 21:14
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an actual frog fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2009 21:38
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:What's their frame of reference then? All manly-men must ride literbikes, bare minimum, to keep from spontaneously ovulating? Large Harleys aren't as bad, though. They have big engines but they won't blow you away with their power. They're just heavy and expensive, which is why they're bad for beginners.
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Apr 2, 2009 22:09
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:What's their frame of reference then? All manly-men must ride literbikes, bare minimum, to keep from spontaneously ovulating? Don't confuse displacement with power. My bike is a 750cc and I'd be willing to be a Ninjette would be a fair bit faster then mine in most situations. Warning people away from the 600cc and 1000cc super sports is more a function of how forgiving a bike is to mistakes rather then a big=bad kind of thing. My dad has a 1200cc Harley. You accidentally grab (or chop for that matter) a handful of throttle or go a little hard on the brakes and the bike remains relatively manageable. On, say, and older GSX 1100 R (similar displacement) there's a good chance doing either of those things means your going to rapidly be on one wheel.
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Apr 2, 2009 22:26
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Gr3y posted:Don't confuse displacement with power. My bike is a 750cc and I'd be willing to be a Ninjette would be a fair bit faster then mine in most situations. Now if you wanna have some real fun, look up the stats on a NSR250, or RGV250 or a RS250, and compare those to your 750 :-) quote:My dad has a 1200cc Harley. You accidentally grab (or chop for that matter) a handful of throttle or go a little hard on the brakes and the bike remains relatively manageable. On, say, and older GSX 1100 R (similar displacement) there's a good chance doing either of those things means your going to rapidly be on one wheel. My favorite example is comparing a Harley 1200cc motor and a ZX12 motor. 70hp versus 190hp.
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Apr 2, 2009 23:04
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Nerobro posted:The idea is right, the example is wrong. 34hp is 34hp, no matter how you cut it. A ninja 250 will be spanked in almost any situation by your 750. You have more like 70hp, and a bike that doesn't weigh twice as much. on top of having this thing called torque.... Power is power but gearing is gearing. Ninja 250s have a six speed with closer gear ratios then my five speed. Looking at the numbers I'd be faster in the quarter but the Ninjete is catching up by that point. I'd be willing to bet that it would be a straight brawl from 60-100 or so, and after that my bike would have a fair bit more to accelerate. Google says my bike is two seconds faster for 0-60 but only a around a second faster for the 1/4. That means somewhere in there the Ninja is accelerating faster then I am. And that's all straight line stuff, throw a few corners in there and it would eat me alive. And yeah... my dad had a fair amount of work done on his 1200 (it started as an 883) but is only developing about 88 horses at the rear wheel. Those bikes are meant to go slightly over ton up but that's about it.
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Apr 3, 2009 00:30
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Back to TTFA and his GS450L- My first street bike, the one I learned on, bought it new in 83, 84, or so for $1500, just for reference. It's a very competent smaller bike, easy to ride, very manageable but capable of plenty of scoot if need be. I think the HP was rated at 46 or 48 and that seemed about right. It handled highway speeds just fine. I sold it a couple years later when I felt I "needed" a bigger bike. Someone else had mentioned a XS850-would not go there, another one of Yammies ill concieved big triples. You would really need to do a compression test on any of those bikes, paying attention to the middle cylinder which notoriously overheats and wears egg shaped way too soon. For as good as Yamaha is today, they sure went through a period of crap.
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Apr 3, 2009 03:06
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