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The Third Man posted:Sounds like people who play CoH are fantastic pussies and easily trolled. Eeeeehhh... I find his experiences unconvincing. I mean, yeah, they are, don't get me wrong. You can get them hideously riled up without much effort. But in the PvP zones, no one expects to play nice RP buddy buddy, even on the Virtue (RP) server. Mostly the circlejerkers hang out in the non-combat zone, the Dance Party Who's Name I've Forgotten Because I Never Went. Also, everyone but the most tremendously moronic stays the gently caress away from the opposing team's sentry robots. It's like these (supposed) guys were TRYING to get sentry-zapped. edit: I suppose it's plausible he found a bunch of duelists to grief? They're a famously over excitable bunch of idiots who take their fights super seriously--but that just raises the question, why weren't they in the arena system, participating in private fights?
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Jul 7, 2009 21:59
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The Third Man posted:Sounds like people who play CoH are fantastic pussies and easily trolled. The vast majority of them are, especially on the Virtue sever, which has been unofficially declared the pure Role Playing sever. (Tons of anime and furry freaks.) The CoH goon population hangs out on Protector and Victory, and only go to Virtue for greifing expeditions.
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Jul 7, 2009 22:05
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The Third Man posted:Sounds like people who play CoH are fantastic pussies and easily trolled. CoH pubbies get about as butthurt as EVE pubbies, sometimes more.
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Jul 7, 2009 22:11
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I think writing and publishing a thesis paper, without changing any of the player names, is an AWESOME form of griefing. Anyone in that paper is suspectible to PMs and taunting for as long as the paper's read and they play CoH.
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Jul 7, 2009 22:20
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That guy has some epic-level BSing going on. "After deliberately antagonizing everyone for an extended period, I found that I was increasingly ostracized. This was regrettable circumstance of persecution for not following the norms of their social group, and not in any way an attempt at retribution for my own intentional provocation." So the next time someone complains about being griefed, remember, their complaints are merely a manifestation of their own bigotry. You should lecture them about the need to accept the ways of other gaming cultures.
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Jul 7, 2009 23:27
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Gabriel Pope posted:That guy has some epic-level BSing going on. "After deliberately antagonizing everyone for an extended period, I found that I was increasingly ostracized. This was regrettable circumstance of persecution for not following the norms of their social group, and not in any way an attempt at retribution for my own intentional provocation." I mean what's the point of making a superhero if you never fight other superheros?
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Jul 7, 2009 23:54
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Sanctum posted:Uhm correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he just playing a hero character and attacking villain characters in a specified combat arena where heroes and villains are supposed to fight each other. I thought the crazy thing about the whole story is that other players call it griefing and get so incredibly worked up about someone that just wants to fight superheros with his superhero... in the designated superhero fighting area. To dress up in tights and play fancy-nancy. I mean, I played CoX for a bit and some of the people who populate that game are astonishing.
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Jul 8, 2009 00:00
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Mystic Mongol posted:Also, everyone but the most tremendously moronic stays the gently caress away from the opposing team's sentry robots. It's like these (supposed) guys were TRYING to get sentry-zapped.
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Jul 8, 2009 00:45
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Gabriel Pope posted:That guy has some epic-level BSing going on. "After deliberately antagonizing everyone for an extended period, I found that I was increasingly ostracized. This was regrettable circumstance of persecution for not following the norms of their social group, and not in any way an attempt at retribution for my own intentional provocation." that guy posted:As part of his experiment, Myers decided to play the game by the designers' rules -- disregarding any customs set by the players. His character soon became very unpopular. that guy posted:"If you aren't a member of the tribe, you get whacked with a stick," he said. "I look at social groups with dismay."  groups of people develop codes of behavior that supersede those set by nominal authority figures this pisses me off because I'm a sociopath and I think fundamental human nature should be exactly whatever arbitrary poo poo sounds good to me even though my ideas are poorly thought out and we would all get involved in crazy cults and die if we lived that way
McNerd fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Jul 8, 2009 |
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Jul 8, 2009 01:02
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On the note of that COH trolling, D. Myers is my professor who I just finished a class with involving that concept. The trolling in that is 100% true and he has the chatlogs to back it up. For the class we attended with him we all set up character accounts and had to get "responses" from other players negative or positive. For my own part I played a healer who shirked responsibility constantly. I ended up roleplaying as the libertarian thinker Hayek and therefore wouldn't do anything unless I got paid. If anyone wants more details on what he did specfically in game I'd be happy to help.
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Jul 8, 2009 01:11
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Most people I play with do annoying poo poo like he did. It's nothing new, and it's been going on since the internet was discovered by Bono(Sonny, not U2). Maybe we should write a book. Then again, I don't use video games as a template for social studies. His "findings" aren't really anything that any internet savvy geekwad doesn't already know.
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Jul 8, 2009 01:31
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^^Despite the problems I have with the study, "everyone already knows it" is never a valid reason to not do a study on anything. Here's my question, since you can't receive PMs: I've only skimmed the paper, I'll read it later, but I've always felt that sociology is sometimes a soft enough science that you could cushion re-entering spacecraft with it. This study didn't seem very rigorous or controlled (I understand sociology can't be as controlled as other sciences, but still). I hope I'll understand better when I read it in-depth but the findings don't seem very significant or generalizable. Did he ever say if he did/didn't try the same character/powerset/concept on different servers in the same map? And if so or not, why? Were any ethograms used to code the behavior he observed? Overall, what was the lesson he was trying to teach in that class where he made you guys troll the other players?' edit: also I promise this'll be the only post I have along these lines because I don't want to derail. Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jul 8, 2009 |
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Jul 8, 2009 01:36
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Tin Can Hit Man posted:His "findings" aren't really anything that any internet savvy geekwad doesn't already know. This is definitely true, however, there aren't a lot of books on the subject matter. Specifically, there isn't really any work on why exactly somethings bother players more than others, what can be done to prevent those things, etc. Additionally many of the things which bothered players in his work were part of the game, the stated objectives in fact. There is very little material on how social order and social enforcement is maintained in virtual environments. Son of a Thunderbeast: I would agree sociology is pretty loose, I have two parents who have PhDs in the field which is why I have no interest in going into it. For the "main" server he ran multiple iterations of the character, some totally distinct and some being slight name change variations. He then did similar and less intense work on other servers as the main focus shifted to the specific community of that server. In trolling other players we weren't necessarily supposed to do that. We were given free rain to interact with other players in any manner we wished. I actually focused on how one aquires or loses player assistance. What he wanted us to focus on was how and why players would respond to us; how, why, and if the players had separations between the real world and the virtual world; and what sort of relationships people formed in and or out of game. Barudak fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jul 8, 2009 |
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Jul 8, 2009 01:38
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Barudak posted:and what sort of relationships people formed in and or out of game. So how many cyber sessions did you guys participate in?
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Jul 8, 2009 02:04
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McSpanky posted:So how many cyber sessions did you guys participate in? None, there is a reason second life was covered quickly and in passing. I don't think anybody had the gumption to try and solicit sex out of other players. The closest I can come up with is when I followed another player around calling her mommy until she/he/it told other players I was indeed their child.
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Jul 8, 2009 02:08
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McNerd posted:
He was doing a study. There was no crying involved. Chill out bro.
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Jul 8, 2009 02:11
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Spiffo posted:He was doing a study. There was no crying involved. Chill out bro. But he did say: "If you aren't a member of the tribe, you get whacked with a stick... I look at social groups with dismay."
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Jul 8, 2009 02:50
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Spiffo posted:He was doing a study. There was no crying involved. Chill out bro. I didn't expect one of his students to come in and things to turn all serious and Games posters to read a 25-page paper. Nevertheless my points stand, if you actually look at them. His tone is decidedly bleak. He thinks he's discovered something ugly about human nature that makes our societies naturally trend away from perfection, if perfection exists. His argument is flawed. quote:If either natural or system laws governing social order in the real world are in any way analogous to the game rules of the CoH/V virtual world, we can conclude that social orders in general are more likely to deny than reveal these laws. It is only through so-called aberrations or “deviant” behavior – in Twixt’s case, breaching play -- that system rules, mechanics, and laws can be made evident and applied most indiscriminately within an entrenched and self-sustaining social order. Why should I believe the "game rules" are comparable to "natural law" as it might exist in the real world? Should players ignore their certain knowledge that the game universe and its rules were "created" by fallible humans? I put "created" in quotes because actually their fellow players are intended to help shape the universe, this being the whole point of an MMO. (And, one might argue, also the point of real life, but there's no need to get into that!) If players acknowledge the programmers' humanity, then all they're doing is setting their own social norms in opposition to those of an authority figure, and enforcing them through the very limited means they posess. I could write an article praising their spirit of democracy and self-determination in the face of tyranny. Of course that wouldn't make sense either because they're all 12-year-olds and their decisions have nothing significant to do with their life/liberty/pursuit of happiness/what have you, so these natural rights (which form the cornerstone of modern democracy and some prominent schools of ethics) don't apply to the game. And the authority figure doesn't care what you do because you pay him for the privilege of existing. And everybody knows these things so they act in bizarre ways because their actions have no consequences. This is asinine and doesn't parallel the real world no matter how you slice it: certainly not the way the researcher sliced it. Sorry Barudak. McNerd fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jul 8, 2009 |
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Jul 8, 2009 02:57
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McNerd posted:I didn't expect one of his students to come in and things to turn all serious and Games posters to read a 25-page paper. Nevertheless my points stand, if you actually look at them. His tone is decidedly bleak. He thinks he's discovered something ugly about human nature that makes our societies naturally trend away from perfection, if perfection exists. His argument is flawed. I still get some goofy british-accent narrator in my head trying to read his poo poo, and I start envisioning The Far Side comics and snickering every time of think of this dude going into cyberspace, disguised as a native. "I've come a long way in my journeys through the Vales of Stranglethorn dodging enormous raptors and fighting off hungry crocolisks. However I believe that I may have finally found a gold farmer in its native habitat! Let us see if we can communicate with it! Ni hao Happybaby! Happybaby Ni hao! <(*-*)> " 
coyo7e fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 8, 2009 |
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Jul 8, 2009 03:35
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Totally tempted to resub and be a researcher that stalks other players.
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Jul 8, 2009 04:34
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coyo7e posted:His argument is jaded, but not flawed. Tribalism/Nationalism/etc are fairly well researched, and their effects can be seen at all levels of society. Going into a game pretending to be motherfucking Gorillas in the Mist is absurd at least from one viewpoint, however it does back up his theory as far as he tells it. The problem is that his argument seems to put more emphasis on the game's predefined rules and objectives versus any social consensus among players about how their multi-player group activity should be played, rather than the conflict between the player group's ingrained social norms versus his outside perspective. The paper describes only the most minimal attempts at building consensus for the type of game he wanted to play; we don't get many glimpses into Twixt's attempts at social interaction, but mostly they demonstrate Twixt's willful refusal to even acknowledge that other players have different opinions about how they want to play. No "hey guys let's fight" or "c'mon can't we just have a big PvP match here for once", just "Good job heroes" and "Vills lose again" when he wins at an objective that no one else is interested in playing for. The other players who analyzed Twixt through the lens of social disorders were spot on: Twixt persistently engaged others in a social group activity, then proceeded to willfully ignore the opinions of everyone else involved despite knowing full well that they did not wish to play the game the way he wanted it to be played. At best he falls back on But It's In The Ruuuuules Guuuuuuys, taking the other players' presence as their tacit acceptance of the game's stated goals in spite of their protests to the contrary. Granted, there is some merit to "if you don't like it then don't play it", but when there are no real alternatives available then this argument more or less boils down to "if you don't like it then gently caress you"; unless there's another version of the zone that's more PvE-centric/pure dueling as opposed to mixed PvE and PvP, other players don't have much recourse. This could be interesting in what it might tell us about how social groups might react to genuine social disorders, since that's effectively what he was emulating with Twixt's behavior. The conclusions it raises are pretty ugly. If Twixt or a character like him was played by someone who was actually unable to understand that other people wanted to play the zone in a manner other than that strictly intended by the game designers, then you might find something really disturbing about the abusive reception received. But Twixt understood players' desires perfectly and was unwilling rather than unable to care about other people, so he's just a dick, and the reactions he received were peoples' normal defense mechanisms against people acting like dicks. While it is indeed an unfortunate truth that these same reactions are often triggered unintentionally due to social dysfunction or cultural misunderstanding, the only thing this study demonstrates is how to be a dick.
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Jul 8, 2009 04:40
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I can't find the link right now, but I read an article where a college professor griefed his class by making them spend money to watch him play video games instead of educating them.
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Jul 8, 2009 04:43
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Disco Duck posted:I can't find the link right now, but I read an article where a college professor griefed his class by making them spend money to watch him play video games instead of educating them.
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Jul 8, 2009 04:55
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coyo7e posted:But... You weren't griefing this is a story from someone else, who is this royal "we" you refer to? It was an edited chat log, everything after the colon was a pared down version of what he said. Except the part in parenthesis.
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Jul 8, 2009 05:59
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Gabriel Pope posted:But Twixt understood players' desires perfectly and was unwilling rather than unable to care about other people, so he's just a dick, and the reactions he received were peoples' normal defense mechanisms against people acting like dicks. While it is indeed an unfortunate truth that these same reactions are often triggered unintentionally due to social dysfunction or cultural misunderstanding, the only thing this study demonstrates is how to be a dick. Go to any game. You know what, go to an off-line game, just to make things more real. A neighbourhood football game or something. Play the same way you would play if winning was all the mattered - tackle people, don't be afraid to injure them, mess with them in every way you can. Very soon you won't be invited to any other games. IRL, you can't join games you're not invited to, unlike certain on-line games. But the essential process is the same - you're being a dick to people. Having fun in a way that stops everyone else from having fun, while accomplishing nothing whatsoever except the above. ... Barudak, did he ever expalin what sort of "exploration of rule-society interaction" he was going for beyond "if you behave like a dick, people will hate you"?
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Jul 8, 2009 06:08
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Soth posted:Couldn't you get a poo poo ton of range increase to make that a moot point? It's a bit of theorycrafting, sure, but isn't that kind of build possible? Base range is roughly equivalent to a sniper blast. Max you can range enhance after Enhancement Diversification literally nerfed EVERYTHING IN THE GAME (And it needed to happen) is +60%. And they still can't use it on you if you can't target them. The zone is a mile and a half across. None of the objectives you fight over (what the hero professor is claiming to be fighting over by teleporting people into his own base) are near enough to either base for TP scumming to affect a battle--unless you have four or five heroes chain teleporting people across the map into the base. Which would be pretty badass, actually, a much more creative form of griefing with no easy counter. If you get teleported into the sentry guns several times, it's because you're retarded. Which fits the average CoX player, so--no easy conclusions? I still think he found a small group of excitable people to troll, instead of finding some underlying theme in the playerbase.
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Jul 8, 2009 07:21
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Jetsetlemming posted:Jesus these are some of the stupidest threads on the internet yes iam banned on steam please help me it make me cry
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Jul 8, 2009 11:45
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fondue posted:'City of Heroes' character 'Twixt' becomes game's most hated outcast courtesy of Loyola professor quote:I’m actually a CoH player who PvPed both with and against Twixt (I am not any of the players named, and my verbal interactions with Twixt were quite limited). I’d like to clear up a few things that seem to be missing. Note that I am, in no way, discounting the seriousness of death threats, but maybe a little more understanding of what really took place will allow people to relate better to the frustration. Someone should buy him an account here.
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Jul 8, 2009 14:32
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fondue posted:Someone should buy him an account here. So he can troll every thread and write a paper when he gets permabanned? Meh.
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Jul 8, 2009 14:34
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McNerd posted:So he can troll every thread and write a paper when he gets permabanned? Meh. Well, I'd be interested in that.
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Jul 8, 2009 14:38
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I didn't think PVP zones had XP penalties? And if they did, it's their fault for going there. You don't play if you're not willing to lose. And the "Twixt made fun people, a lot" sounds like hearsay, but I'm not 100% sure. It's possible.
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Jul 8, 2009 14:53
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Xander77 posted:This, pretty much. Actually, this sounds more like when players play fighting games. Constantly spamming fireballs is considered cheap and boring by many, but its perfectly within the rules of the game. Take SF4 for example, you can spam fireballs with Ryu all day and if it works and helps you win, then you should do it, despite the other player's complaining. After all, it is in the game. I think whats most telling is that people begin to harass him OUTSIDE the game. If you were playing a pickup game, the most people will probably do is not invite you anymore. They most certainly won't mail you a letter calling you a fag.
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Jul 8, 2009 15:48
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This has probably been mentioned, but in CS early days I loved name stealing. I'd always end up on some pub server with a bunch of guys who knew each other or "knew the admin" who liked to brag about it. For some reason most of these guys like to change their names to nickname_AFK or nickname_BRB when they'd leave for a minute. So I'd go to the console real quick, /nick dude's_nickname and steal his identity for a bit. Until I get booted or quit, he can't have his name back. The bonus was if his friends weren't the type to pay attention to console messages, I could convince them that he was the impostor and get him banned. Most of the time my plan was to teamkill using his name and ruin his 'image', but if they were really sold that I was him I would play for a while without doing anything malicious and really convince them I was who I claimed to be. Of course, if I did get kicked, I could jump back in that server and set my nick to dude's_nickname_AFK and cry about how the impostor stole my name again while I was AFK and we need to ban him this time!
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Jul 8, 2009 15:56
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Justice Grieves posted:I didn't think PVP zones had XP penalties? And if they did, it's their fault for going there. You only get debt if killed by npcs, not enemy players.
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Jul 8, 2009 15:57
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blackguy32 posted:Actually, this sounds more like when players play fighting games. Constantly spamming fireballs is considered cheap and boring by many, but its perfectly within the rules of the game. Take SF4 for example, you can spam fireballs with Ryu all day and if it works and helps you win, then you should do it, despite the other player's complaining. After all, it is in the game. quote:I think whats most telling is that people begin to harass him OUTSIDE the game. If you were playing a pickup game, the most people will probably do is not invite you anymore. They most certainly won't mail you a letter calling you a fag.
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Jul 8, 2009 16:01
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blackguy32 posted:I think whats most telling is that people begin to harass him OUTSIDE the game. If you were playing a pickup game, the most people will probably do is not invite you anymore. They most certainly won't mail you a letter calling you a fag. Forums aren't really outside of the game though, even if they aren't directly integrated into the client or whatever. It would be like someone calling you a fag from the bench: they aren't actively playing at the moment, but the bench is a part of basketball anyways.
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Jul 8, 2009 16:33
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fondue posted:Apparently there is more to this than what we've talked about. Someone whom played with him and against him commented on the whole thing ... here is an excerpt from Broken Toys blog; Did this article get published in any peer-reviewed journals? I doubt it, but I'd like to know. It'd probably get picked the gently caress apart. EDIT: EBSCO returned no relevant results (peer-reviewed or otherwise) for * AU d. myers or AU david myers or twixt CSA returned nothing relevant for AU=((D. Myers) or (David Myers)) so v  vanyway enough about the guy and his study. It was a pretty good piece of griefing in any case  vvvv edit: who's butthurt? I'm just talking about the academic integrity of his paper. Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jul 8, 2009 |
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Jul 8, 2009 17:19
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God look at all you butthurt CoH players. This is the griefing thread, what the gently caress are you doing.
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Jul 8, 2009 18:00
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The real grief is on the taxpayers whose money funded this guy's grant and study.
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Jul 8, 2009 18:16
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yeah whos paying these wacky scientists and their stupid fruitfly research.
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Jul 8, 2009 18:22
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