|
So this is a full ring game right? As far as the info you gave us it looks like B isn't value betting A widely for value so you're probably in bad shape here. I don't think most people would squeeze a LAG like player A as a bluff here, especially live players since in general they are tighter with 3bets. So I would fold. If this was a spot where B had a wide range though my play would be to 4bet small and get it in. I don't really like flatting a 3bet OOP with JJ it's just going to be hard to play.
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 20:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
Yes it's full ring and there had been a surprising amount of 3bets for a live game. Also, I agree that player B won't be 3bet bluffing the LAG player ever but won't a smart player be widening their 3bet value range a bit? And yes, flatting is definitely the worst option. EDIT: So is JJ the cutoff hand to be folding here and 4bet get it in with QQ+, AKs? Spasms fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 3, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 21:16
|
|
|
I think this is pretty standard, but I would appreciate advice here. Villain was about 36/10 over 50 hands or so. The only thing I feel is iffy was the PFR, but I was IP with a tight image and honestly I think its pretty reasonable with this hand. Not that anyone pays attention to your image at NL2  http://www.pokerhand.org/?4751977
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 21:32
|
|
|
zarg posted:I think this is pretty standard, but I would appreciate advice here. Villain was about 36/10 over 50 hands or so. PFR is fine but make it .5 to 1BB bigger. For the love of God bet the loving flop.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 21:42
|
|
|
Spasms posted:Yes it's full ring and there had been a surprising amount of 3bets for a live game. Also, I agree that player B won't be 3bet bluffing the LAG player ever but won't a smart player be widening their 3bet value range a bit? It sounds like you don't have much history to go on, but aside from the hand where you both had QQ had you ever seen player A re-raise after opening and being 3-bet?
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 22:05
|
|
|
Spasms posted:Probably 5 orbits later I pick up JJ in the SB with a stack of $550. Player A opens UTG+2 to $25 with a stack of $1800, 1 fold, rando flats, 2 folds, Player B (probably about $1k behind) squeezes to $80 and it's folded to me. Comments on the play you would make given this dynamic would be great. If B had flatted, I'd be reraising and probably playing for stacks. If B has any sort of wide three-bet range, I'd want to get it in. If you had a much shorter stack, I'd want to get it in. If you had a much bigger stack, you could four-bet without committing or flat-call for set value. If you had QQ+/AK, I'd obviously want to get it in. But none of those things happened, and committing for 110 BB against a TAG three-better with JJ is probably not great in a game with lots of other weak spots. So I think on balance zero is right that this is a pretty clear fold.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 22:47
|
|
|
Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com MP1 ($24.72) MP2 ($3.70) CO ($20.36) Button ($8.20) SB ($25.03) BB ($5.74) UTG ($35.49) Hero (UTG+1) ($25.34) Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A  , QUTG bets $0.90, Hero calls $0.90, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.90, 1 fold, Button calls $0.90, SB calls $0.80, 1 fold I know I should usually 3-bet this preflop. Flop: ($4.70) 6  , A , K (5 players)SB checks, UTG bets $2.75, Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, UTG raises to $34.59 (All-In), Hero ? My only read on UTG at this point is that he has played very tight (broadway cards and pocket pairs) and mostly gets his money in with a very solid hand.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 04:49
|
|
|
A Violence Gang posted:PFR is fine but make it .5 to 1BB bigger. For the love of God bet the loving flop. Well, I often will bet in this situation but I chose not to here because I felt that if someone had Qx then they would for sure raise me, possibly to an amount I wasnt comfortable calling. I was fairly sure Qx would raise my on a later street if I hit my straight or flush and bet, and that seemed more desirable. Am I crazy?
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 05:50
|
|
|
zarg posted:Well, I often will bet in this situation but I chose not to here because I felt that if someone had Qx then they would for sure raise me, possibly to an amount I wasnt comfortable calling. I was fairly sure Qx would raise my on a later street if I hit my straight or flush and bet, and that seemed more desirable. Am I crazy? You have position, initiative and a huge draw on a wet board against people who have done nothing to define their hand. There is no reason to assume anyone has Qx and if they do, you have a shitload of outs unless they flopped full, and that's just a cooler. You want to build this pot and there's plenty of poo poo people can call with that you have crushed -- worse draws, nines and at NL2, random PPs or garbage. If you get raised, that's fine -- jam it right back and get stacks in. If you check this through and the turn bricks, you just gave up a ton of equity for no benefit. Bet this hard every time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 06:04
|
|
|
Denzalo posted:Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com What was your plan when you raised to $8? If he calls, you now have less than a PSB behind on the turn so you're basically shoving anyway. Calling and reevaluating on the turn would've been better. As played...eh, I'd call. If the K wasn't there you'd be happily shoving and losing to AK anyway. If he turns over AA / KK / AK make a note that he trips over himself to get it in with premium hands on dry boards for the future I guess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 06:26
|
|
|
Denzalo posted:Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com Fold and don't raise the flop. You're overrepping your hand for sure. Just call and see what happens on the turn.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 08:17
|
|
|
http://www.pokerhand.org/?4754060 Looking for help with this line. Should I raise flop? I think I can get more value from flush draws that aren't folding, but that fold turn when flush doesn't come. However, I like the way the action is going and I think more money is going in on the turn. If I raise flop I have to lead turn and possibly make a lot of worse hands fold that otherwise would be betting. Is flatting the turn an option to try to keep the third guy in? He tank-folded on turn when I raised.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 16:56
|
|
|
Definitely raise the flop to like $13.5. You're in position so it looks like you could be squeezing with a draw of some sort. You can't really fold if a spade hits the turn either so protect your hand on the flop. If the players are soft they will probably come along with Kx and flush draws anyways. I can see your play being effective on a rainbow board but it looks pretty sketchy to me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 19:19
|
|
|
Ducks posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?4754060 He's probably just cbetting the flop here, and shouldn't have a flush draw too often. I think he'd fold the majority of his range to a call and flop raise, and I think you have enough equity to slowplay one street to get a lot of money in on the turn. Letting him keep the initiative gives him an opportunity to fire again with a bigger part of his range, and keeps your range wide. If you flat the turn, you give correct odds to a FD and allow them to check/fold a bricked river. Edit: The other guy looks a lot more like a flush draw than the PFR, so protecting vs. him makes more sense. I don't think you're getting more money out of PFR very often either way. Raising flop to like 3x will leave you with a good stack size for shoving turn if they both call, but I don't see much else but AK calling a turn shove. OstehQvel fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 4, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 19:19
|
|
|
Either lead flop or check-raise. Check calling is pretty bad. There are very few hands that will bet here twice that won't also call a raise on the flop and besides, your goal here is to get stacks in, not to squeeze an extra bet out of a weak hand. Remember that a flush on the turn will either beat you or kill your action.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 20:06
|
|
|
Spasms posted:Yes it's full ring and there had been a surprising amount of 3bets for a live game. Also, I agree that player B won't be 3bet bluffing the LAG player ever but won't a smart player be widening their 3bet value range a bit? Clear fold; it's live and JJ just isn't good enough to play for 100bb+ with preflop; you're either flipping or crushed. FWIW, I also don't like getting it in with QQ for 110bb in this situation, and depending on finer reads could fold it. If TAG $80 raiser is at all decent, he probably doesn't want to play preflop for stacks or a big (and probably awkward) pot with LAG maniac with AK, and QQ might be played better with a flop vs LAG when 200bb deep (did I read that right?), making his range probably more weighted to AA/KK. Of course, I don't know the regularity of any 4-betting that might be going on in the game, but given that it's live, I doubt there's anything too silly happening.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 20:47
|
|
|
OstehQvel posted:He's probably just cbetting the flop here, and shouldn't have a flush draw too often. I think he'd fold the majority of his range to a call and flop raise, and I think you have enough equity to slowplay one street to get a lot of money in on the turn. I agree with this. Donking the flop has a good chance of folding TT-QQ / AQ out. I'd check-raise the flop maybe half the time, protecting against flush draws is important but at 6-max with 2 other players it's not *that* important. I'm surprised AK didn't raise the flop for you, flatting AK on that board is  . Checking the turn is dangerous though, because I think a lot of the time the other players will check behind given the flop action unless the cbetter double-barrels almost always. If you lead the turn, the only "bad" hand they can reasonably put you on is 56s, which is possible since you're BB but not that likely.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 21:12
|
|
|
An NL20 6-max hand, very marginal holding in a small pot. Not thrilled with any part of it so comments on the whole line welcome. BTN, SB limp; Hero checks J 5 in BB. BTN is somewhat loose/passive by the numbers but we'd both been at the table for like an hour and I was hard-pressed to remember a single thing he'd done. Seemed like a straightforward fit-or-fold player gone card dead. BB seemed pretty loose but I didn't have much of a history on him.Flop: Q  T 4 (3BB)SB bets 1BB, Hero calls, BTN folds. At the time I thought if I raise and BTN folds, I've possibly blown somebody out who might've contributed if I hit; if he flats I've bloated the pot out of position, possibly sandwiched and wondering if he's got a bigger flush draw; if he three-bets I either fold or play my hand face-up when I hit. Now I'm thinking a raise could fold BTN with something like middle pair that might squeeze me if he improves on the turn and I don't. Add in the possibility of getting a free card or winning the pot immediately and I think a raise to about 4BB would've been better. Turn: Q T 4 [9] (5BB)SB bets 5BB, Hero calls. He seemed to like that so obvious reads are the straight, two pair, or a pair with a J that picked up the same straight draw I did. If the flush comes and he checks, I only need him to call about two-thirds of the pot and for a loose player at NL20, I think he does a lot of of that range unless it also counterfeits him badly (and I hold probably the worst card for that). My 4-card straight draw probably doesn't add much value but it might be the difference in a marginal decision. River: Q T 4 9 [8] (15BB)SB bets 15BB (69BB behind), Hero calls. Assuming QT or Q9 wouldn't pay off a raise is probably giving too much credit to what looks like a bad player at NL20 but with the chops and possible KJ I thought it was extremely marginal at best. Folding also seems like a clear mistake so I suppose there's nothing to do but flat?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2009 18:10
|
|
|
I would call the river, from his betsize it seems like he is likely to have a straight or a missed draw. Wouldn't be that surprised to see 2 pair since it's 20NL but when he full pots it on the 4 straight board I'm leaning towards him having mostly straights and air. On the flop don't worry about what the BU is going to do when you raise. He's very very rarely going to continue once you raise and when he does it becomes easy to play because he has a really tight and strong hand range. I would probably raise the flop just because the SB's bet is really weak so I'd expect to be able to fold him out pretty often. Once you call though the turn is standard, I wouldn't raise because I doubt he is folding and if you get 3bet it's not good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2009 18:36
|
|
|
Definitely raise flop. It's a limped pot and you have a flush draw and also backdoor straight outs. Turn I don't understand why you're undervaluing your hand so much. It's not a raise or anything, I think you played turn fine, but your hand is actually really good. You picked up your OESD, so now you have a pretty good combo draw (again, in a limped pot); River I kind of like a minraise/fold. He's probably never 3betting you without KJ, and you need to get some value out of the second nuts. He calls a minraise with probably his entire range. His range is weighted toward a lot of SCs, a lot of which hit at least one pair, and he's going to talk himself into a call with a lot of that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2009 20:51
|
|
|
http://www.pokerhand.org/?4770387 I'm going to go off on a slight tangent but I once read a book called Blink that was basically about intuition and the gut feeling. I basically had that here that I was up against AA/KK against this opponent. Due to the stacks I think flatting here is best. Of course the flop is just horrible, but what can you do.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2009 20:02
|
|
|
CortezFantastic posted:but I once read a book called Blink that was basically about intuition and the gut feeling. I basically had that here that I was up against AA/KK against this opponent. Due to the stacks I think flatting here is best. Of course the flop is just horrible, but what can you do.  3bet more preflop and start counting all the times you "feel" you are up against AA/KK you will be wrong a lot and you should fold pre if you think he has AA/KK??????? oh and shove preflop too he isnt as deep as you he only has 140bb
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2009 20:25
|
|
|
Spastic Moose posted:
But I'm not going to fold? The guy is a 18/16 TAG and his UTG 3betting range is pretty small. Guess I should just shove and open I'm against AK!
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2009 21:00
|
|
|
http://www.pokerhand.org/?4773449 24/21/3 with a 40% steal, 44% from sb. This is a weird hand for me. With the c/r shove at the river I dunno what I'm beating other than a bluff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2009 20:40
|
|
|
So I'm somewhat struggling in 3b pots (both ip and oop) specifically on when to cb and when not to on the times I whiff. Also I've been feeling more lost than I'm used to regarding hand reading. Any books/good posts/etc I should read for these things? The only specific nl book I've read is nltap and that was about 2 years ago. I have the new Miller et al ssnl ebook that I'm starting as well. This is for nl50 right now but I'm hoping to move up to 100 by the end of the month. EDIT: To specify the hand reading poo poo is mostly in pots where I flat in position. Typically pretty lost when I brick and I know I'm missing postflop steal opportunities. rivals fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Oct 11, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2009 22:51
|
|
|
CortezFantastic posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?4773449 Tough call. You're beating AA or KK, most pocket pairs except those on the board, but he checked, making trips slightly less likely. You're not beating a flush, but it's unlikely he has one here. He could have AQ, or be hoping that the river club scared you off, which it did. It's hard for me to put down top 2 pair, but I think not reraising the flop was a mistake. I'm sure someone else can give a better analysis, but top 2 pair at NL25 is almost always a call for me. If the flop had more clubs to begin with, I'd give a flush more credit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2009 23:09
|
|
|
CortezFantastic posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?4773449 his line reps a flush and its a nuts or nothing spot because of his c/c on the turn...b/f the river is fine....the bet on the river is close because i think he wouldve kept the lead with Qx hands on the turn and because ur only getting value from Tx, which he probably folds on this river (not 100% sure about this though at 25nl)
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2009 23:39
|
|
|
Just go ahead and raise on the flop. Who knows, maybe he had AQ and will stack off with you. The c/c on the turn is a good sign he's on some sort of draw. Either KJ or J9 for the OESD or a flush draw. Maybe AT of clubs betting the flop for value / continuation and c/c the turn with a pair and a draw. The c/r on the river is pretty fishy for a flush that got there. He's basically hoping you'd bet for him so he can c/r you. I would have just checked behind on the river. Your hand has good showdown value, but it can't stand a c/r. Plus, if he was on a draw and missed, you're not getting any more out of him. Is he bluffing? Not too likely. 1) He commits his whole stack. Generally larger the bet, the more likely it is that it's legit. Bluffs are common preflop / flop, and less common as bets get bigger on the turn and river. 2) You didn't show much weakness in the hand. You flatted the flop and then lead out on two streets after being checked to. He was the one showing weakness throughout the hand, and you were repping strength. If he was bluffing, he'd have to assume he's getting called here a good part of the time. Because of 2, he's probably thinking you have AQ, two pair, set, etc. and will making a hero call here. INTJ Mastermind fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Oct 11, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2009 02:25
|
|
|
I don't mind folding that QT hand, definitely don't check back the river though, bet folding is OK. He can only be bluffing with a missed straight draw basically, and there are actually a good amount of those in his range. Even though it's possible though I think you just very very rarely get c/r'ed bluffed here, and he is credibly repping a good amount of hands that beat you as well (flushes). I would expect to see a worse 2pair here with only Q3 or T3, and those will be rare because he'll fold preflop fairly often with them and he won't always raise the river. So good fold. Rivals: When you miss the board after flatting IP preflop you should mostly be trying to steal when it looks like your opponent is giving up. I don't really know any good sources with a lot of specific info in this area but I can try to give you some general tips. Assume our opponent is a typical TAG who is a small winner in the games, with a preflop style somewhere around 22/18. Expect them to cbet dry boards very often with every type of hand except medium strength SD hands. For example on a board of A73ss, if the PFR checks to you I would expect them to hardly ever have a flush draw or an ace, generally they will have a hand that can't stand 2 barrels or air depending on their cbet % stat. So a key aspect of hand reading at these stakes is figuring out your opponents cbetting tendencies and then going from there. The players in general are going to be unbalanced in a lot of spots and their hands will end up face up without them realizing it which is an important place to capitalize. The best advice I can give you is to just check out any video coaching site that has a lot of cash game content. I would personally recommend Deuces Cracked. I think that just watching a few videos each week and then trying to apply some concepts while you play might work out better for improving your play than if you find some condensed article on hand reading and bluffing and trying to implement all of the ideas at once. The new Ed Miller book has a good amount of hand examples in it which will be fairly relevant to 50nl, so that would also be a good source.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2009 07:15
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice. I started a trial on DC today so I am going to start watching some this afternoon. Stats-wise I did some studying and read the HEM included leak finding articles and I was close to optimal on most of the stats though the sample was only 30k hands. The one I was furthest off from was fold to turn cb so that's somewhat of an indicator I think, I'm not putting too much weight on those numbers though. I've got a midterm tomorrow night so the last/next couple days have been perfect for taking a short break to re-eval those spots and study those videos as much as I can.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2009 00:27
|
|
|
So this was an odd spot. I'm not really sure what to think on that river. http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xsTFw8TFx8DHzMTExMXDzYjBwczNx8A%3d I'm Tibideaux Edit: I had 5d 9h Edit 2: villain and I had not tangled before and this was 2nd rotation of the table. Xris fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Oct 13, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2009 03:22
|
|
|
Xris posted:So this was an odd spot. I'm not really sure what to think on that river. River is an easy fold and why are you even calling the flop?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2009 03:24
|
|
|
Xris posted:So this was an odd spot. I'm not really sure what to think on that river. Bet or fold flop, check/call is the worst line you can come up with. I'd rather bet/fold the turn than checkraise for a bunch of reasons (your hand is very marginal, half of the deck sucks on the river, etc.). Fold the river.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2009 04:02
|
|
|
If any winning NL50+ players want to learn FR SnGs for some retarded reason I'm willing to trade coaching
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2009 22:45
|
|
|
y go to u when we got derk???
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2009 23:25
|
|
|
I haven't seen derk in months
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2009 00:16
|
|
|
Villain here is unknown, he hasn't been at the table that long. I haven't seen him get involved in any > 10bb pots yet. Looking back at the hand I don't really like the way I played most of it. Comments on any street are welcome, mostly wondering about the turn check (at that point I wanted to try to get to sd) and river action. His shove was a little more than 2x pot. Considering I'm splitting a good amount of the time and losing to a flush at least a decent amount of the time, do we call this getting a bit less than 3:2? Also I just noticed the button is off, I was CO and seat 3 was btn. Table - Pebble Beach (6-Max) 12580 (Real Money) Seat 1 is the button Seat 1: Hero ( $60.70 USD ) Seat 3: CakeSeat3 ( $55.00 USD ) Seat 4: CakeSeat4 ( $24.05 USD ) Seat 9: CakeSeat9 ( $67.85 USD ) Seat 10: CakeSeat10 ( $30.50 USD ) CakeSeat4 posts small blind [$0.25 USD]. CakeSeat9 posts big blind [$0.50 USD]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Hero [ A T ]CakeSeat10 folds Hero raises [$1.75 USD] CakeSeat3 folds CakeSeat4 calls [$1.50 USD] CakeSeat9 folds ** Dealing Flop ** [ K , J, 8 ] (Pot $3.5ish after rake)CakeSeat4 checks Hero bets [$2.50 USD] CakeSeat4 calls [$2.50 USD] ** Dealing Turn ** [ T ] (Pot $8.5)CakeSeat4 checks Hero checks ** Dealing River ** [ Q ] (Pot $8.5)CakeSeat4 bets [$19.80 USD] Hero ???
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2009 18:11
|
|
|
rivals posted:Villain here is unknown, he hasn't been at the table that long. I haven't seen him get involved in any > 10bb pots yet. Looking back at the hand I don't really like the way I played most of it. Comments on any street are welcome, mostly wondering about the turn check (at that point I wanted to try to get to sd) and river action. His shove was a little more than 2x pot. Considering I'm splitting a good amount of the time and losing to a flush at least a decent amount of the time, do we call this getting a bit less than 3:2? With a tight calling range, in order for him to have a flush here, he has to have A9c or K9c because AKc would've almost certainly reraised you preflop or on the flop. If we loosen the range, we can add some more Axc combinations and maybe 67c. He doesn't have AQ because he would've bet the turn. So in the splitting category, we have 9 AJ combinations, plus maybe some random hands like QTo and KQo. He probably doesn't have AT because calling the flop doesn't make much sense with that. So yeah, call. King Nothing fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Oct 14, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2009 19:13
|
|
|
At cake 50 his preflop range is almost certainly wider than that. And also I think AQ is going for a cr on that turn a lot. His river shove was pretty snap but I don't want to lend much credence to a timing tell.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2009 19:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 21:52 |
|
|
rivals posted:At cake 50 his preflop range is almost certainly wider than that. And also I think AQ is going for a cr on that turn a lot. His river shove was pretty snap but I don't want to lend much credence to a timing tell. Wider meaning what, he'd call with any two suited cards? Because other than that a wider calling range includes a whole bunch of things you're beating. If he does have AQ, it's not AQc so that's still a splitting situation and he's a moron for letting you get there. In the villain's shoes, I'd probably shove a straight here because I wouldn't expect you to have a flush once the Qc showed up on the river.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2009 19:34
|
|