|
ritorix posted:Looking through the original DS monster book (1992!), they actually had full golem creation rules. Ash, chitin, obsidian, rock, sand, and even wood golems. Lots of variety. Possible Warforged pictures:   
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 05:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:04 |
|
|
ritorix posted:Looking through the original DS monster book (1992!), they actually had full golem creation rules. Ash, chitin, obsidian, rock, sand, and even wood golems. Lots of variety. And given that Sorcerer-Kings were able to make their own thoughts sentient, the idea of a sentient golem doesn't seem too far off.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 05:13
|
|
|
rantmo posted:Frankly, I don't see how they have a choice but to include everything that's been published thus far. It sort of goes against the spirit of 4e. A lot of poo poo is going to need some drastic tweaking to fit in the Dark Sun setting but I think just saying 'this item doesn't exist' is going to cause more angst than is worth it. Whats the point of having original settings if you can just throw in stuff from any number of sources willy nilly? These original settings should be just that, original. If a given race or class conflicts with the setting (warforged is the most obvious example of conflicting with Athas), it can be excluded. Wihtout exclusion everything might as well be the high magical realm of gay retarded Faerun, lets explore the metropolis of Baldurs Gate together, onegai~!
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 05:58
|
|
|
Truthfully what should be let in should be up to what the players are capable of. If they can make a certain class or character interesting sticking to the worlds themes than I say let them, even if it takes a couple reskin gymnastics. If they cannot, than stick to what is easy to use/traditionally apporiate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 06:02
|
|
|
It should also be noted that having something excluded from a setting just means you can't RPGA it in 'official' events. Most people aren't going to poo poo fire because you want to play a warforged made of chitin.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 12:03
|
|
|
moths posted:It should also be noted that having something excluded from a setting just means you can't RPGA it in 'official' events. Most people aren't going to poo poo fire because you want to play a warforged made of chitin. Yes, it's not like WotC is going to burn anyone who wants to play warforged in Dark Sun at the stake. They'll probably have some Dragon article or a sidebar or some throwaway poo poo like that saying "hey, if you want to play warforged in Dark Sun, make sure they're not metal! And here are some possible ways to integrate them..."
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 17:57
|
|
|
Meme Emulator posted:Wihtout exclusion everything might as well be the high magical realm of gay retarded Faerun, lets explore the metropolis of Baldurs Gate together, onegai~! There's no compelling reason why anything needs to be excluded, in the case of PCs. They're already supposed to be special and capable of things far beyond the average person, especially in a Point of Light setting. There doesn't need to be a giant kingdom of the Warforged or a tribe made up of robots; there just needs to be as many Warforged as there are in the PC group. Ordinarily, a metal man wandering into a settlement from the wastes would be swarmed by scavengers and cannibalized for parts, but this one happens to have 15+Constitution hit points and 9+Con modifier healing surges as well as almost preternatural talent with weapons and he was able to beat back the ragged gang of nobodies that tried to scrap him. NorgLyle fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Oct 3, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 18:13
|
|
|
It will probably go via a more unique thing (like they did in an article for FR on how certain races might get in, and largely involved Warforged being nearly unique), with a note on materials and probably better rules for them suffering the wastes or something (seriously though a Warforged made from chitin and bound with the mind and soul of some thri-kreen protector (by the thri-kreen) as a sort of guardian would be a nifty story, not sure if the thri-kreen would think of that but well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 18:22
|
|
|
NorgLyle posted:They're already supposed to be special and capable of things far beyond the average person, especially in a Point of Light setting. There doesn't need to be a giant kingdom of the Warforged or a tribe made up of robots; there just needs to be as many Warforged as there are in the PC group. I don't think you're quite following the logic. It's not a matter of how good or strong they are. In 2e Dark Sun, you couldn't find metal weapons, Weapons were mostly made of bone, chitin, and Aztec-style macahuatls with obsidian shards, because the very essence of magic is as destructive to metal as it is to plants and such. Metal is more rare than good water. It's not a matter of "oh they'd be tossed for scraps" It's more like a campaign setting in a grasslands, and elves catch fire if they step on or near grass. And any spells that are cast create grass. Elves are going to be essentially extinct simply due to the way the campaign setting exists. You're right though that they'll find some way to incorporate them, and Obsidian Warforged would be downright awesome.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 21:07
|
|
|
Alpha Phoenix posted:I don't think you're quite following the logic. It's not a matter of how good or strong they are. This is incorrect. Metal is scarce on Athas because most of it was mined out to make weapons and armor during the Green Age and the Cleansing Wars. You can find metal weapons digging in ruins, and metal weapons are still produced. Tyr has a functioning iron mine, and its Templars carry Steel Longswords as weapons and badges of office.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 22:08
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:Metal is scarce on Athas because most of it was mined out to make weapons and armor during the Green Age and the Cleansing Wars.
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2009 23:52
|
|
|
All warforged gain the following racial power: Form Blazing Self [Warforged Racial] After standing under the blazing sun for hours, anything foolish enough to enter your personal space risks being burned as well. Minor At-Will, Close Burst 0 Keywords: Radiant, Fire The Warforged may make an attack for 1d4+CON vs. Fortitude.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 00:20
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:Metal is scarce on Athas because most of it was mined out to make weapons and armor during the Green Age and the Cleansing Wars. This. The limiting factor for metal in Dark Sun is the lack of raw materials, they were literally all used up. Tyr has the last iron mine which is how it gets away with a small army of well-equipped elite soldiers. Even Tyr's slaves are more useful, given proper tools one slave in Tyr does the work of several slaves in Urik or elsewhere. Kalak was so rich he used his vast wealth from the mines to fund his ziggurat, and for decades he pulled slaves out of the mines to finish the project. A suit of field plate armor costs 2,000 gp on Athas, the equivalent of 200,000 gp on other AD&DŽ campaign worlds. Simply put, a sorcerer-king can either purchase several suits of field plate or build a substantial addition to his city walls. vs requirements to level-up as a dragon: The material components must include vast riches (at least 10,000 gp worth of jewels, gems, coins, or artistic treasures), a vast structure where the transformation might take place, and no fewer than 1,000 Hit Dice worth of living creatures for the life-leeching process. The riches vanish and the living creatures are slain one heartbeat after the defiler begins casting. The structure, which must cost more than 50,000 gp to build, is not destroyed and may be used again to cast this spell when attaining all three of the low levels.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 01:37
|
|
|
drat dead worlds with their overly mined veins, what is this, Dwarf Fortress? Edit: Well, Dark Sun armor does menace with spikes of bone, so... Kerison fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Oct 4, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 01:59
|
|
|
NorgLyle posted:Ordinarily, a metal man wandering into a settlement from the wastes would be swarmed by scavengers and cannibalized for parts, but this one happens to have 15+Constitution hit points and 9+Con modifier healing surges as well as almost preternatural talent with weapons and he was able to beat back the ragged gang of nobodies that tried to scrap him. Except that it's Darksun, where even the lowliest of the low has 3 hit dice and a randomly generated Psionic power. Seriously, no one man/machine will take on a horde of determined scavengers, and even more dangerous are those who pretend to be his friend until they find a convenient forge to dump him in. Now, re-skin the warforged to be obsidian relics of the wars between the sorcerer kings and you have something. Hew them from rock and stone instead of iron and they're awesome. They could also be some ancient relic wandering out of the unexplored gray wastes, their life force not being enough to attract the attention of the jealous dead. There are more than just a handful of ways you could dump a warforged on Athas, but there's no reason to other than a PC whining about wanting to be a special little snowflake.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 02:56
|
|
|
TheAnomaly posted:Except that it's Darksun, where even the lowliest of the low has 3 hit dice and a randomly generated Psionic power. Seriously, no one man/machine will take on a horde of determined scavengers, and even more dangerous are those who pretend to be his friend until they find a convenient forge to dump him in. The PCs are always hot poo poo. Especially so in places like Dark Sun where most everybody else is a slave, scavenger or other primitive screw head. If you honestly think that Wizards is going to produce a setting where the PCs are just scrabbling out a miserable existence on the fringes of a larger society, you're crazy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 04:33
|
|
|
Why not just take away the construct trait and call them muls? They are very similar, mechanically. Plus muls are sterile! Quite whining about how you want to be a robot and start clubbing some fools with your jawbone axe already. What about drow? Don't we need drow in Dark Sun? And hobgoblins and orcs?
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 10:30
|
|
|
jigokuman posted:What about drow? Don't we need drow in Dark Sun? And hobgoblins and orcs? If Dark Sun 4E doesn't let me play a Bullywug than just forget it
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 11:05
|
|
|
just retitle one of the sorcerer kings as "warforged scrapper" and be done with it
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 11:43
|
|
|
TheAnomaly posted:Except that it's Darksun, where even the lowliest of the low has 3 hit dice and a randomly generated Psionic power. Seriously, no one man/machine will take on a horde of determined scavengers, and even more dangerous are those who pretend to be his friend until they find a convenient forge to dump him in. Nah, Norglyfe is right. The lowest of the low were 1HD peasant scrubs just like any other D&D setting. Even though they would likely have a wild talent, it generally wouldn't be much more than a defense mode. Ironically enough, Dark Sun, the setting most about threatening player survival, was also the setting that first codified the idea that PCs were a cut above normal and destined for greatness. Put that in your grognard pipe.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2009 21:14
|
|
|
God-loving-damnit, I just found out that Rodney Thompson is in charge of Dark Sun. Rodney "can't write a loving thing balanced to save his life" Thompson. Rodney "I write lovely supplements for Star Wars RPG" Thompson. Might as well pack up and go home. Edit: By in charge, I mean Rodney is the "lead developer" for Dark Sun 4E. Kerison fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Oct 21, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2009 21:43
|
|
|
http://community.wizards.com/wotc_richbaker/blog/2009/09/29/dark_sun_the_dragons_bowl_and_worldbuilding This is another designer for 4e dark sun. A guy who thought it was a good idea to get rid of the Silt Sea, because Silt doesnt exist in the real world. loving. Idiots. Btw, Silt is in. He was overruled. ritorix fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Oct 21, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2009 22:28
|
|
|
ritorix posted:http://community.wizards.com/wotc_richbaker/blog/2009/09/29/dark_sun_the_dragons_bowl_and_worldbuilding He's not saying silt doesn't exist. He's saying the described behavior of the Sea of Silt doesn't match the real properties of silt, which is a lot less unreasonable -- a giant pile of fine dust would compact into something more solid or just blow away. That said, the idea of not having the Sea of Silt is just awful and I'm glad that's not the direction they're going in. I'm as excited about Dark Sun as anyone else in the thread, but let's not be busting out the Poopsocks of Grognard +3 just yet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2009 22:41
|
|
|
Gomi posted:I'm as excited about Dark Sun as anyone else in the thread, but let's not be busting out the Poopsocks of Grognard +3 just yet. I'm not trying to grognard, it's just that Rodney Thompson has written a lot of really bad, broken rules and has been in charge of some lovely-rear end supplements. I know the guy, and he's a nice guy, but I don't want him to touch anything I plan on buying, and it really annoys me to find out that he's the lead developer for Dark Sun. Makes it a "read before buying" instead of "BUY BUY BUY", for me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2009 22:45
|
|
|
Honestly, Thompson's involvement doesn't worry me beyond the possibility of some poorly balanced rule choices.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2009 23:47
|
|
|
Kerison posted:I'm not trying to grognard, it's just that Rodney Thompson has written a lot of really bad, broken rules and has been in charge of some lovely-rear end supplements.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 00:22
|
|
|
I wish they'd put out something for us to playtest. I'm fine with it lacking a new class, but I'd really like to see how the existing classes will be flavored for DS.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 00:32
|
|
|
NorgLyle posted:For someone who didn't play Star Wars, what did he do? For example, in Hero's Guide for SWRPG d20 Revised, he wrote (obviously paraphrasing): Form IV (feat): instead of str, use dex for lightsaber damage. use double dex when holding two-handed. This feat had no requirements, iirc, and effectively turned Strength into a dump stat for all Jedi (since Dex was already heavily favored in SWRPG, being the AC stat and all). For another example, there's the Destiny system in SWRPG's Saga Edition. That was entirely his baby. Basically, you would write a destiny for your character and then, once you achieved that destiny, you would gain benefit x. These benefits included things like +5 to skill checks, +2 to an ability score, that sort of thing. And these destiny bonuses were repeatable and had no real guidelines other than "goal for character"+"achieved goal"+"if you're not actively working towards this goal, -1 to everything!!!" It's a terrible system and anyone who knows Saga Edition will agree that the Destiny system is a horrid thing. Even the Saga people agreed when they published Backgrounds in the Rebellion book, which replaces the Destiny system. He just seems not to think things out all the way. Edit: Rodney also has a troubling tendency to not admit when he's made a mistake and instead says, "Oh, I meant it to be like that, see, this is how it is now." He's done this with various Saga rulings which he made using 4E rules (which are different), only to be called on it, only to respond "oh well that's how it's supposed to be." Kerison fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Oct 22, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 00:46
|
|
|
BetterWeirdthanDead posted:I wish they'd put out something for us to playtest. What exactly do you want to see? I'm not sure we'll see any changes made to any classes. A slew of setting specific Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies is all that's really needed to flavor the current classes to Dark Sun.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 02:22
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:What exactly do you want to see? I'm not sure we'll see any changes made to any classes. A slew of setting specific Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies is all that's really needed to flavor the current classes to Dark Sun. I'm curious if there will be any new build paths. I'm sure it will more likely just be PPs and EDs. Hell, Wild Psionics rules?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 03:12
|
|
|
BetterWeirdthanDead posted:I'm curious if there will be any new build paths. I'm sure it will more likely just be PPs and EDs. Right on. I was just wondering what sort of playtest stuff they could show us if there's not going to be a class. Late Edit: It'd be nice if they gave us a glimpse of whatever new mechanic they were talking about. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Oct 22, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 04:02
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:What exactly do you want to see? I'm not sure we'll see any changes made to any classes. A slew of setting specific Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies is all that's really needed to flavor the current classes to Dark Sun. I'm not expecting changes to actual powers and class features, but they will need some heavy flavoring for the divine and arcane power sources. Defiling looks like the new mechanic and may offer a preserve/defile choice for new arcane users. Then on the divine side you may have a templar/elemental choice as well. Or maybe the 'deities' list for DS will look like: "Hamanu, Nibenay, Fire, Water, Earth, Air..." with appropriate domains. ritorix fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Oct 22, 2009 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 08:29
|
|
|
ritorix posted:I'm not expecting changes to actual powers and class features, but they will need some heavy flavoring for the divine and arcane power sources. Defiling looks like the new mechanic and may offer a preserve/defile choice for new arcane users. Then on the divine side you may have a templar/elemental choice as well. Or maybe the 'deities' list for DS will look like: "Hamanu, Nibenay, Fire, Water, Earth, Air..." with appropriate domains. I'm not convinces that's going to be the new mechanic they spoke of. I'm still in the camp that thinks the preserver/defiler split will be handled with PPs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 21:32
|
|
|
I'd be annoyed if anything interesting or unique was relegated to Paragon Paths, oh goody nothing really innovative happens until Paragon Tier, hooray!
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 21:38
|
|
|
Eh, the whole surviving a harsh world with nothing but erdlu thigh battle axes and braxat hide armor will be very important throughout heroic. It's not like you're going to miss a huuuuuge chunk of flavor if defiling isn't a big deal until paragon. There's also that most PC wizards will probably end up as preservers, and defilers will be more an NPC thing. Consider how much 4E is geared towards playing good heroes. Honestly, holding off on the preserver/defiler split and the elemental badass stuff until paragon tier can be a real nice way to make the different tiers of play distinct from one another. Look at it this way: at heroic, your focus is on surviving the environment; at paragon, your focus becomes controlling the environment; and at epic, you begin to transcend the environment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 22:23
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:erdlu thigh battle axes and braxat hide armor I'm looking forward to using the DMG2 rules for 'alternative rewards' on a DS campaign. Basically instead of doing the normal 4e magic item treadmill, it drastically cuts gold and items. The math then gets patched by giving bonuses directly to the characters, so at 8th level they may be using a normal thigh axe but at +2 attack and damage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 23:16
|
|
|
ritorix posted:I'm looking forward to using the DMG2 rules for 'alternative rewards' on a DS campaign. Basically instead of doing the normal 4e magic item treadmill, it drastically cuts gold and items. The math then gets patched by giving bonuses directly to the characters, so at 8th level they may be using a normal thigh axe but at +2 attack and damage. I think that will be the best way to do it. The regular 4E loot tables are too rich for DS. I'm interested in seeing how they do weapon and armor materials. I wouldn't mind it being a mainly cosmetic thing, as long as it gets across the idea that metal weapons are pretty rare. But they could easily do that by having something like bronze weapons are level 11 treasures and count as +2 magic weapons, and steel weapons are level 16 treasures and count as +3 magic weapons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2009 23:56
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:But they could easily do that by having something like bronze weapons are level 11 treasures and count as +2 magic weapons, and steel weapons are level 16 treasures and count as +3 magic weapons. I think that's actually a really great way to handle it, but something tells me that that isn't the route they took.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2009 00:01
|
|
|
Epicurus posted:I think that's actually a really great way to handle it, but something tells me that that isn't the route they took. I hope this isn't another Etherwind style "I have a friend under an NDA" post. But you're probably right, and it will probably something fairly crunchy. That could actually be pretty cool if they do it right. What if weapon materials is the new mechanic? I hope it isn't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2009 00:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:04 |
|
|
They're not doing it by giving characters direct bonuses in place of loot. That one I can confirm.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2009 00:57
|
|
