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How much drift would it experience in a society where literacy is strictly and violently controlled by a tiny minority?
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Feb 16, 2010 23:43
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PeterWeller posted:How much drift would it experience in a society where literacy is strictly and violently controlled by a tiny minority? you mean like middle ages Europe?
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Feb 17, 2010 01:03
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Would you be executed for displaying even the most basic knowledge of reading and writing in middle ages Europe? Athas is literally, "he knows 'a' is the first letter of the alphabet. Off with his head."
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Feb 17, 2010 01:11
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PeterWeller posted:Would you be executed for displaying even the most basic knowledge of reading and writing in middle ages Europe? Athas is literally, "he knows 'a' is the first letter of the alphabet. Off with his head." Um, in most nations, yes? "Oh the peasant has written a pamphlet about proper pig raising? Welp shame he's not allowed to write, execute him!"
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Feb 17, 2010 01:57
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PeterWeller posted:How much drift would it experience in a society where literacy is strictly and violently controlled by a tiny minority? A lot, probably! Spoken language is fairly dynamic and protean over time; orthographic systems--i.e. writing--are conservative and resistant to major change.
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Feb 17, 2010 03:04
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shotgunbadger posted:Um, in most nations, yes? I'm going to have to ask for a cite on this, it sound like something out of U.S. slavery.
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Feb 17, 2010 03:24
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shotgunbadger posted:Um, in most nations, yes? I'm with fritz. You're going to have to provide a cite for this. quote:A lot, probably! Spoken language is fairly dynamic and protean over time; orthographic systems--i.e. writing--are conservative and resistant to major change. But wouldn't that mean the name of the constellation on the charts would experience little drift?
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Feb 17, 2010 04:41
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fritz posted:I'm going to have to ask for a cite on this, it sound like something out of U.S. slavery. There are plenty of accounts of French barons and such just killing people who wrote poo poo no matter how banal and unimportant as a message of 'don't print poo poo', no they didn't magically probe your mind to know if you had the knowledge, but yea freedom of speech and such was rare, and those rare few underclass who could even afford to learn to read anything but the bible didn't have access to any tools to do anything. I was a bit dramatic for influence, but yes, the upper class had many ways to keep the lower class from advancing through literacy and writing.
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Feb 17, 2010 04:42
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shotgunbadger posted:I was a bit dramatic for influence, but yes, the upper class had many ways to keep the lower class from advancing through literacy and writing. Yeah, I'm not questioning this. Nor would I question that many French Barons murdered peasants for any number of petty things. What I am questioning is that there was a systematic legal code that punished literacy amongst the underclass with death. Athas is a society where even having words on your shop sign will literally result in your death. Edit: And this isn't exaggerating for effect. Any display of literacy or even a display of written arithmetic is a high crime against the Sorcerer King and punishable by death. Even scratching a design into the dirt that could be mistaken for writing will get your head chopped off by the nearest templar. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Feb 17, 2010 |
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Feb 17, 2010 04:48
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shotgunbadger posted:There are plenty of accounts of French barons and such just killing people who wrote poo poo no matter how banal and unimportant as a message of 'don't print poo poo', no they didn't magically probe your mind to know if you had the knowledge, but yea freedom of speech and such was rare, and those rare few underclass who could even afford to learn to read anything but the bible didn't have access to any tools to do anything. you are exaggerating hugely. Illiteracy was not a thing that needed to be maintained, peasants didn't really have the time to learn to read, nor did they have access to books (which had to be written by hand) nor anyone who could teach them. There was no need for dramatic purges of the literate underclass because it could never exist
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Feb 17, 2010 04:49
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, I'm not questioning this. Nor would I question that many French Barons murdered peasants for any number of petty things. What I am questioning is that there was a systematic legal code that punished literacy amongst the underclass with death. No, there was no literal 'no reading' law for unified France, but that doesn't change the fact that yes, there were some baronies where if the baron found out you had a book that wasn't the bible you would wind up killed, I don't know how much clearer that can be. No, surprisingly Athas is not based on a real place.
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Feb 17, 2010 05:04
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shotgunbadger posted:No, there was no literal 'no reading' law for unified France, but that doesn't change the fact that yes, there were some baronies where if the baron found out you had a book that wasn't the bible you would wind up killed, I don't know how much clearer that can be. No, surprisingly Athas is not based on a real place. If you are a serf and own a book that's a hugely expensive object that you almost certainly stole.
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Feb 17, 2010 05:20
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Liesmith posted:If you are a serf and own a book that's a hugely expensive object that you almost certainly stole. Which was why you got killed for it. I really don't know what this is about anymore, something about the spread of ideas in an illiterate world? Regardless of analogies to the real world as long as there is trade between cultures ideas will prosper just fine. Writing just helps them spread.
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Feb 17, 2010 05:25
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shotgunbadger posted:No, there was no literal 'no reading' law for unified France, but that doesn't change the fact that yes, there were some baronies where if the baron found out you had a book that wasn't the bible you would wind up killed, I don't know how much clearer that can be. No, surprisingly Athas is not based on a real place. Right, but the presence of any such rules regarding literature wasn't to keep the underclass down, it was because nonbibles were banned by the church for blasphemy or what have you. The serfs couldn't read because there was no reason to learn in the life of serfdom. They would never come accross literature because it was insanely expensive, and had no reason to learn to read the one book they might access, the Bible, given the process was time intensive and the clergy was there to perform that function for them. With that said, if they somehow found a reason and time and a teacher (say, if they were sent to join the church) no one was going to stop them.
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Feb 17, 2010 05:26
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CoolCab posted:Right, but the presence of any such rules regarding literature wasn't to keep the underclass down, it was because nonbibles were banned by the church for blasphemy or what have you. This is actually kind of funny. Few peasants could read, and the majority of those who could found jobs as criers and such for their own local nobility. They generally only read the language they spoke, which was the vernacular tongue of their region, and it was used almost entirely for announcements and proclamations. Unfortunately, everything important (including the bible) was written in Latin until the renaissance.
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Feb 17, 2010 05:36
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PeterWeller posted:Athas is literally, "he knows 'a' is the first letter of the alphabet. Off with his head." He'd work them to death in the obsidian mines instead. Can't let that good labor go to waste! 
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Feb 17, 2010 06:01
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shotgunbadger posted:No, surprisingly Athas is not based on a real place. Actually, Athas is based on a number of real places. A lot of the setting is heavily influenced by the ancient Near East. Draj has a heavy Aztec influence. Nibenay, the city, is not-Babylon. And Hamanu, king of Urik, is not-Hammurabi. Also, in 4th edition, the halflings are going to be savage descendants of the not-Incas. quote:He'd work them to death in the obsidian mines instead. Can't let that good labor go to waste! They would die from their minds being ripped apart. Hamanu would never be so foolish as to let such an obvious source of intelligence as to the schemes of the Veiled Alliance go to waste in the obsidian mines until he was sure he had ripped every last shred of information from the poor wretch's simple mind. For Hamanu is wise as he is powerful.
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Feb 17, 2010 07:05
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shotgunbadger posted:Which was why you got killed for it. That was my point, you got killed for possessing a priceless object that you couldn't possibly have acquired through legitimate means, not for being literate
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Feb 17, 2010 07:21
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PeterWeller posted:They would die from their minds being ripped apart. Hamanu would never be so foolish as to let such an obvious source of intelligence as to the schemes of the Veiled Alliance go to waste in the obsidian mines until he was sure he had ripped every last shred of information from the poor wretch's simple mind. For Hamanu is wise as he is powerful. Once King Hamanu, he who waters the fields that feed the Tablelands, almighty Hamanu, is satisfied that there is no infiltrator in the city, he will return the humble merchant to his store, none the wiser once Great Hamanu has wiped the experience from his mind.
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Feb 17, 2010 07:44
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PeterWeller posted:Would you be executed for displaying even the most basic knowledge of reading and writing in middle ages Europe? Athas is literally, "he knows 'a' is the first letter of the alphabet. Off with his head." This was an actual Pol Pot policy. He actually goes farther than Athas, the glasses thing was about literacy as well.
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Feb 17, 2010 07:46
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4E rules bits that don't work with Dark Sun: the Dragonheart epic destiny.
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Feb 17, 2010 16:02
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CoolCab posted:This was an actual Pol Pot policy. He actually goes farther than Athas, the glasses thing was about literacy as well. Well you can't do that in Athas because everyone is already wearing those sweet dust goggles.
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Feb 17, 2010 19:19
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Kaishargas (not-liches): "[T]heir eyes burn with a green fire." Meorties (not-mummies): "Their eyes glow like bright green embers... ." When I first read those entries, I realised that there's no functional difference between a lich and a self-aware mummy: both are ancient, evil corpse-people who cheated death with occult magics. It took green-eyed psychic corpses for me to figure that out. 
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Feb 17, 2010 22:44
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mummies are wrapped in bandages and walk like egyptians, liches are just zombie wizards
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Feb 17, 2010 22:50
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Liesmith posted:mummies are wrapped in bandages and walk like egyptians, liches are just zombie wizards only a matter of fashion
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Feb 17, 2010 22:52
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style is everything and mummies have got it. Meanwhile the "best" liches are floating jeweled skulls which is so nouveau riche they put it in a 50 cent videogame
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Feb 17, 2010 23:00
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Liches are cooler than mummies because of phylacteries.
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Feb 18, 2010 00:32
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Squizzle posted:When I first read those entries, I realised that there's no functional difference between a lich and a self-aware mummy: both are ancient, evil corpse-people who cheated death with occult magics. It took green-eyed psychic corpses for me to figure that out. A Lich can cast spells, a Mummy causes a disease that keeps you from healing.
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Feb 18, 2010 00:32
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TheAnomaly posted:A Lich can cast spells, a Mummy causes a disease that keeps you from healing. The majority of Mummies would like to disagree with you (and also burn you with the unholy fire of their undead god). It's just a cultural thing.
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Feb 18, 2010 01:35
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um, the majority of mummies are incarnations of the undead god, just as in life they were the incarnations of his son
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Feb 18, 2010 01:42
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Whatever. Meorties are clearly a more primitive type of kaisharga. Agree/disagree, cite reasons.
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Feb 18, 2010 03:19
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Squizzle posted:Whatever. Meorties are clearly a more primitive type of kaisharga. Agree/disagree, cite reasons. While they're similar creatures in effect, they're different in two ways: 1) Kaisharga are "free willed". They can do pretty much whatever they want to whenever they want to. Meorties aren't, they have a specific set of laws that they are beholden to upheld. If they aren't currently owning bitches, meorties just sleep in their tombs. 2) Kaisharga are formed from arcane/defiling magic. Meorties being a product of the Green Age predate magic and thus are something else. The two options remaining are psionic or "divine" which would imply that at some point there were beings that could fuel spells like that. Edit: 
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Feb 18, 2010 04:09
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I want to see a pair of players playing some sort of archaeologists and arguing whether the zombie thing that's trying to kill you is a kaisharga or a meortie.
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Feb 18, 2010 09:31
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Martial Power 2 posted:Crushing Mace That's so Dark Sun.
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Feb 18, 2010 09:49
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What was the zombie called that was gluttonous, did nothing but eat whatever it could find, and could bite your head off? So Dark Sun. edit: If the fael causes 6 or more points of damage, there is a 25% chance it has bitten off a portion of its victim the size of a hand. If the fael causes 9 or more points of damage, there is a 25% chance it has bitten off a portion of the victim the size of an arm or leg. If the fael causes 12 points of damage, there is a 25% chance it has bitten off the head of its victim, automatically killing him. quote:Meorty: Meorties are undead who Dark Sun had awesome undead. And the players never had any clue what they did. Vampires, liches and mummies were well-known to the vets, but they didnt know WTF a krag did. ritorix fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Feb 18, 2010 |
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Feb 18, 2010 11:29
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that's the wasteland for you
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Feb 18, 2010 11:48
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Don't forget dwarf-banshees, dune-runners, and vengers!Banshee, Dwarf posted:Dwarves who die before completing a major focus are often condemned to live out their afterlives as banshees. In unlife they haunt their unfinished work or quest, unable to bear the fact that someone else may complete what they could not. Day or night, the pupils of their eyes flicker red as if a flame burns them from within. Dune Runner posted:Dune runners are elves who died running to complete a quest or deliver an important message. They are undead, forever trapped and forced to repeat their hopeless mission night after night. Note also that anyone the dune-runner passes may be psionically compelled to run with it, even unto death be exertion. If this co-runner is an elf, they become a dune-runner themselves. An elven trade caravan camping in the wrong spot to sleep might become a literal herd of dune-runners overnight. Vengers posted:A venger is the animated remains of some strong-willed being who suffered a great wrong in life. The wrong must have been committed by an intelligent creature who survives beyond the death of the being who will become the venger. At the moment of death, the consciousness of the wronged person is trapped by the rage and frustration within its corpse, and it rises as an undead venger 2d6 days later. Why always between two and 12, with seven days as the average? Because AD&D. A venger will Terminator-style relentlessly pursue its quarry, even as it breaks down from the ravages of decay. If ever absolutely prevented from following--say, by an impassable wall, or being trapped somewhere--it will fall down motionless, looking like any other mummifying desert body. It will keep its chase even as it breaks down into a legless, one-armed horror dragging itself across the sands. If it's absolutely destroyed, however, it will simply rise again in a complete form in a few days, and resume its pursuit. Note: destroying it makes it explode. And these are just the Athasian undead of defined type. Athas is just lousy with undead of all description, that mix and match traits pretty freely. Emphasis added: The Rules Book from the initial boxed set posted:Free-willed undead are usually very powerful creatures with great intellect and ambition. Every free-willed undead creature in Dark Sun is unique--each has its own reason for existing and its own set of strengths and weaknesses. Athas has no ghouls, shadows, wights, ghasts, wraiths, mummies, spectres, vampires, ghosts, or liches, though PCs may encounter a host of monsters very much like them. Confronting and defeating a free-willed undead creature in Dark Sun is always interesting and challenging--powerful undead on Athas break all the familiar molds. The post-revision Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium Appendix--the one that's in color--has a neat chart for random undead weaknesses. The chart can produce between zero and four weaknesses, usually between zero and two. Here's the list (with the d% rolls attached, since I doubt anyone in this thread is still playing AD&D), with ones I find interesting italicised:
I love the heck out of the undead of Dark Sun. They're eerie and weird, feeling like they could be taken right out of folklore, but without leaning too heavily on any real-world mythology that would be immediately familiar to a modern western audience. Sure, a t'liz is for all intents and purposes an Athasian vampire, and a meorty is a mummy of the psychic wastes; they're still different enough that you don't have to catch it right away. My first character in 4E Dark Sun will be a revenant monk with that "don't need food, water, or air, and you're completely undead" feat; the DM has already suggested that we should put together a Random Screwjob chart like the one above for him, and I couldn't be more excited about it. That's the wasteland for you...
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Feb 18, 2010 15:17
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Speaking of undead, what was ever the deal with the tombs and underground cities of shadows that were apparently dwarves bound to gems or something. I remember seeing them in Shattered Lands and in the Pentad books but never ran across a solid description.
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Feb 18, 2010 18:34
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I remember one sort of Athasian undead, a guardian type I think, would sometimes demand the sacrifice of a PC in return for use of whatever it was guarding or passage through. Turns out they got lonely. Was the Thrax undead? It was a straight-up vampire analog, along with the victim rising three nights hence, but it looked like Baxa had been watching that Original Series Star Trek episode with the salt sucker.
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Feb 18, 2010 19:13
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Wayback posted:Speaking of undead, what was ever the deal with the tombs and underground cities of shadows that were apparently dwarves bound to gems or something. I remember seeing them in Shattered Lands and in the Pentad books but never ran across a solid description. They're actually two different things you're remembering. The Shadow Giants from the Prism Pentad are the undead remnants of the halflings who were loyal to Rajaat. The shadows bound to the gems in Shattered Lands are the souls of people from the ruined city you travel to at the very end. If I remember correctly, they were somehow created/cursed by Dagolar, the crazy psionicist who hides out under Draj's sewer.
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Feb 18, 2010 19:23
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