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CombatWombat posted:
Cool post bro!
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Aug 18, 2010 01:13
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Is being a preserver supported by feats or a PP or something? Is it just a roleplaying distinction?
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Aug 18, 2010 01:28
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Strontosaurus posted:Is being a preserver supported by feats or a PP or something? Is it just a roleplaying distinction? As far as I know, there's only the butterfly epic destiny? I'd be surprised if there weren't a PP too, though. But, as has been pointed out before, they also are supported by the class feature of not killing your friends. 
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Aug 18, 2010 01:30
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So this is just like an alignment sort of thing. Being a preserver is a title you "earn" by abstaining from specific activities. Same as being a "good guy." Who loving cares
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Aug 18, 2010 01:32
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Drox posted:As far as I know, there's only the butterfly epic destiny? I'd be surprised if there weren't a PP too, though. But, as has been pointed out before, they also are supported by the class feature of not killing your friends.
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Aug 18, 2010 01:33
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FYI saying that "everyone hates you if you defile" as an RP penalty for defiling misses the whole "most people don't know the difference and will hate/want to kill you regardless of whether you're a defiler or preserver". There is not some magical golden halo around preservers that tells everyone that they're the good guys and should be left alone. Also for those asking: there is a PP called Master Preserver in addition to the Avangion epic destiny. There are no "preserver" feats. Edit: I forgot to mention that no one should equate "preservers" with "good guys" because, as is typical, wizards are selfish assholes. This is doubly so on Athas. Remember that the Veiled Alliance is more akin to Wizard Al Qaeda then it is to Luke Skywalker and the Rebel Alliance. ManMythLegend fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 01:39
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ManMythLegend posted:Edit: I forgot to mention that no one should equate "preservers" with "good guys" because, as is typical, wizards are selfish assholes. This is doubly so on Athas. Remember that the Veiled Alliance is more akin to Wizard Al Qaeda then it is to Luke Skywalker and the Rebel Alliance. I'd equate them closer to something like the ELF, since they're all about keeping the planet green and poo poo. Either way, yeah, they're dicks too--just dicks who don't want the planet to die (more).
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Aug 18, 2010 02:54
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Edit: Apologies; meant to post that in the 4E thread.
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Aug 18, 2010 02:54
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Speaking of books, I really enjoy the various hazards and terrain powers in the creature companion. All in all I am very pleased with my purchases, and plan on incorporating themes into my games when it is convenient. I've even talked with the GM of the game I'm a player in, and she's considering adding the themes as rewards at level 4 or 8, just as a neat bonus or a kind of subtier before Paragon. Also, how 'bout them arena feats? It seems like the level 9 net feat is pretty brutal. I wonder if there's any way of trashing an opponent's saving throws as a Martial character, thereby shafting them with a -5 to hit for a good hunk of a fight.
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Aug 18, 2010 03:16
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wow a bunch of people without the CG went way overboard theorycraftingbgaesop posted:How many people here have actually played a defiler already? How has it worked out in-game? edit: Restful Bedroll ain't gonna cut it. This is Dark Sun. alg fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 03:30
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Honestly an active, burn-everything defiler isn't really playable in the setting. I'm not talking about the crunch either. Defiling or being outed as a defiler (true or not) is a good way to get mobbed by pretty much everyone including the rest of the party. If you decide to hide it to survive and not defile unless things get life-or-death, well that's probably the mental justification used by half of preservers. Unless you are playing a party of sorcerer-king-sanctioned templars and defilers, which would be pretty awesome. Since I mostly DM, I am looking at the alternative rules and which ones to add, which ones to keep or ignore. -I will definitely use fixed enhancement bonuses to hit and armor as you level, combined with less magic item parcels, boons, faction rewards and infrequent gold. I can see giving "500 House Tsalaxa faction" as a reward instead of 500g, to be cashed in later for whatever. I think the focus of a DS game should be far away from the magic item treadmill of normal 4e games. -Not sure about weapon breakage. On one hand yes the weapons are lovely and should break, but that doesn't need to be a game mechanic. It could also come after the battle, like "you rolled a 1 during the fight, your sword is now cracked and broken". Or maybe exclude at-wills so it happens less often overall. I also don't like favoring weapon users with the chance of hitting on a 1 by rerolling and breaking the weapon. Breakage feels more like a relic of 2E and I'm not sure how to best use it yet. -Wild talents are awesome and I wish there were more than 10.
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Aug 18, 2010 03:58
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You should totally keep weapon breakage in. Repairing a primitive weapon can be done as part of a rest (short or long), and it'll lead to some fun occasions. : Time to die! *rolls a 1* Nuh-uh, blocking! : Block this! *breaks his weapon, drives the splintered wooden haft into the poor bastard, snatches his foe's weapon as a minor or free action* Who wants some?I mean, the best part about built-in bonuses is that magic weapons are nice for the occasional +1 (over your normal bonuses) and their daily/encounter powers. Breaking a weapon is never the end of the world, especially if you have a choice between a gouge, a Macuahuitl, and a spear
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Aug 18, 2010 04:11
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Hey all you DMs who are using fixed bonus advancement and boons and etcetera instead of magic items. How are you going to handle people creating characters above 1st level? Obviously they'll get the level appropriate fixed bonuses, but what about boons and all that poo poo? Weave one into your background and you get it, don't start with anything, start with three with no explanation? Are you using absolutely 0 magic items, or is it just instead of "you find a +1 dagger on the orc" it's "the Sorcerer King has observed you carry out his machinations well, and to reward you has granted you a dagger made from a single sliver of stone he personally breaks from the meteor he lies crouched upon, have a +1 dagger", or something else?
bgaesop fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 04:21
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bgaesop posted:instead of "you find a +1 dagger on the orc" it's "the Sorcerer King has observed you carry out his machinations well, and to reward you has granted you a dagger made from a single sliver of stone he personally breaks from the meteor he lies crouched upon, have a +1 dagger" This. The CG suggests giving only two items per level, throwing out the highest and lower item each level. Items could include boons or masterwork armor or other non-item rewards. Players might not see a real magic item for a long time. The ones they do get are special, they should have increased story significance or grow with the character or whatever. Using those rules, a party of five that just reached level 6 will have a total of 10 items, 2 per person, of levels 8 to 3. They will also have an inherent bonus of +1 to all attacks, defenses, and +1d6 on crits. A normal 4E party would have no bonus but twice the items, four per person, levels 9 to 2. I would probably just drop the highest level item from the incoming player at that level, and make sure the two they start with have significance beyond "it helps me do more damage". Once you get into Paragon tier the long-time players start to horde items, that's a better time to start newcomers with three. ritorix fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 04:57
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ritorix posted:grow with the character or whatever. Oh god, the worst thing ever is having to choose between a +1 weapon with a wonderful backstory and a random +3 sword. I'm really lucky that almost every DM I've had has houseruled something about upgrading items and I'm so glad they put it in core in 4E, even if they were a little slow. quote:Using those rules, a party of five that just reached level 6 will have a total of 10 items, 2 per person, of levels 8 to 3. They will also have an inherent bonus of +1 to all attacks, defenses, and +1d6 on crits. Are these the rules from the DMG(II?) or the Dark Sun book? I don't have any of those in front of me.
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Aug 18, 2010 08:02
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If I run a game where the players start at a high level, it will probably begin with the PCs lost in the desert with sun sickness and no supplies. Suddenly they come across some sun-baked ruin with a hidden labyrinth underneath it full of abominable horrors. The PCs will have to kill the monsters with rocks then eat their flesh and drink their blood to regain their strength. Then the PCs can make new weapons and equipment out of monster parts and they're on their way. edit: extra points for voluptuous women, serpents, and other Conan references. Sanzuo fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 08:26
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Now that the books are out, I'm hoping to see some more play by post games start up. I had read a bit about themes previously but now that I have the 4E book in my hands I really like them. I would love to see the idea be adopted as a regular part of the game.
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Aug 18, 2010 08:55
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TheNinjaD posted:I would love to see the idea be adopted as a regular part of the game. You're in luck!
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Aug 18, 2010 09:24
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bgaesop posted:You're in luck!
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Aug 18, 2010 09:30
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TheNinjaD posted:I knew that they liked it and were considering doing so. I take it his has been officially stated somewhere and I now look like a fool for missing it? Not like a fool, just like someone who has a life outside of the internet and D&D. Look for them in the Player's Handbook: Champions of the Heroic Tier, out in 2011. It's supposed to have more non-combat stuff as well as 'professions,' whatever those are. Citation: this blog.
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Aug 18, 2010 10:54
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There's a lot of support for being a defiler in the book. It is a pretty tempting path if you can convince your allies to hand over their precious life energy. I like how they've tied the mechanic into magic items and feats as well as PPs and ED while comparatively leaving the support for preservers (or LOSER NERDS as I like to call them  ) comparatively slim.In the end I agree that it's something you'd have to approach carefully as a player. But if you're not playing with people you trust not to be dicks. Well, that's the wasteland for you. Woops, didn't refresh and this argument's over. On weapon breakage: You could apply the rules to implements too, to balance it for casters? Maybe consider anything above a +1 implement "metal" for the 1-5 reroll effect. Anisotropic Shader fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 11:27
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bgaesop posted:Not like a fool, just like someone who has a life outside of the internet and D&D. Look for them in the Player's Handbook: Champions of the Heroic Tier, out in 2011. It's supposed to have more non-combat stuff as well as 'professions,' whatever those are. Citation: this blog.
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Aug 18, 2010 11:33
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shweet, a new Dark Sun adventure from Dragon. level 1. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dungeon/181/181_Vault.pdf looks to use a variety of monsters, too, instead of the same old poo poo like most of the published adventures so far.
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Aug 18, 2010 13:56
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angrylinuxgeek posted:shweet, a new Dark Sun adventure from Dragon. level 1. and it links the adventure in the CG with Marauders of the Dune Sea. Cool stuff 
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Aug 18, 2010 14:00
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Hey guys, I'm fairly new to D&D (been playing 4e about 6 months) and I'm really loving the Dark Sun setting. The generic high-fantasy stuff just doesn't do it for me anymore. That said, I'm looking at making a custom DS campaign for a few friends and I to play. From what I've gathered, giving away magic items should be sparse and players should be given boons instead. In DS, boons are given by the Sorcerer Kings, right? I guess I don't really like the idea of having to work in an SK into every adventure so that I can give out rewards. I can't figure why an SK would give a boon to any player that isn't one of their templars. I'm probably missing something, but there has to be another way to give out bonuses to players besides SK boons and magic items. I could always houserule something, but it seems like that shouldn't be necessary. Any ideas? Also, does anyone know if/when the DDI and character creator will be updated to have the changes in Dark Sun? I had insider but it just expired a few weeks ago. No sense resubbing if the DS stuff hasn't been put in yet.
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Aug 18, 2010 15:50
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you can really get them from a lot of sources. terrain features like The Tree of Woe could give you a "boon" (they call them echoes of power). an elemental spirit might grant you an elemental gift. you could earn a glory boon, which is basically a boon you get from being good at what you do. primal blessings are from spirits of nature. Sorcerer-Kings, Templars, and the Veiled Alliance can all grant boons. there are also Wanderer's Secrets, and Secrets of the Way (psionics) DDI updates will be next month.
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Aug 18, 2010 16:02
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Bazanga posted:That said, I'm looking at making a custom DS campaign for a few friends and I to play. From what I've gathered, giving away magic items should be sparse and players should be given boons instead. In DS, boons are given by the Sorcerer Kings, right? I guess I don't really like the idea of having to work in an SK into every adventure so that I can give out rewards. I can't figure why an SK would give a boon to any player that isn't one of their templars. I'm probably missing something, but there has to be another way to give out bonuses to players besides SK boons and magic items. I could always houserule something, but it seems like that shouldn't be necessary. Any ideas? The campaign guide makes two suggestions: primal forces (blessings from an oasis spirit, being touched by the Elemental Chaos on an anvil flat, etc), and glory boons (you're so impressive in the arena/leading your freed slave hordes/whatever that the adulation of your followers drives you to greater heights). You could also have the boon result from stumbling across some artefact of a previous age, from commandeering the last fragments of a dead god's power, or a gift from the Veiled Alliance for services rendered. Also remember that boons don't actually have to be direct gifts from other people. The glory boons get at this, but "boon" just means "a non-item effect that gives power equivalent to a magical item" So maybe in the heroic tier the party sees the Dragon laying waste to a village they were trying to protect; you might give them a boon to reflect their renewed inspiration to find a way to deal with the Dragon forever.
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Aug 18, 2010 16:06
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Dedekind posted:The campaign guide makes two suggestions: primal forces (blessings from an oasis spirit, being touched by the Elemental Chaos on an anvil flat, etc), and glory boons (you're so impressive in the arena/leading your freed slave hordes/whatever that the adulation of your followers drives you to greater heights). You could also have the boon result from stumbling across some artefact of a previous age, from commandeering the last fragments of a dead god's power, or a gift from the Veiled Alliance for services rendered. Sweet, I'll have to take another look at the guide. I just got it this morning and haven't had much of a chance to check it out. So from what I gather, "echoes of power" aren't exactly the most common things in the world. I suppose I should try to mix it up and give out a few magic items as well as boons to keep boons from becoming stale. I just don't want a situation to arise where players are more worried about their gear than the actual characters, which is what has happened in our standard 4e group. angrylinuxgeek posted:DDI updates will be next month. Awesome, thanks. I'll probably end up resubbing this week anyway just to get access to the Dark Sun articles.
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Aug 18, 2010 16:27
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CombatWombat posted:
Seriously. The feats for defiling can make it amazing, and the Preserver paragon path makes it so you can't defile anymore; ergo, preserves can no longer defile. Heroic tier you aren't really either, you're just an arcanist trying to get by. The feats and paragon path for defiling are what take it from an oh poo poo button to something someone would choose to do with regularity.
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Aug 18, 2010 20:02
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TheNinjaD posted:Now that the books are out, I'm hoping to see some more play by post games start up. Theres already a Marauders of the Dune Sea pbp underway on the PA forums. That didnt take long. I just bought it today, flipping through and evaluating it along with the new Dungeon adventure. While looking through the Campaign Guide I came across a mention of a fortress with legs that walks around owned by a lich, blah blah. I chuckled and rolled my eyes, thinking that must be a 4e addition. Reminds me of "I'm dead, deal with it." Then I looked through Marauders, instinct confirmed. Pretty sure I will start a campaign focused around working for a sorcerer king. Templars, defilers, nobles, etc. If my home group doesn't want to put aside our current campaign it will turn into a pbb and/or maptools game. ritorix fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Aug 19, 2010 |
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Aug 19, 2010 00:10
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ritorix posted:While looking through the Campaign Guide I came across a mention of a fortress with legs that walks around owned by a lich, blah blah. The Baba Yaga? 
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Aug 19, 2010 00:15
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I was thinking of some walking fortress with legs from Planescape that moves around some layer of hell. -took a minute but, AH HA: 
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Aug 19, 2010 00:32
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bgaesop posted:The Baba Yaga? Hut of brown, now sit down!
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Aug 19, 2010 00:32
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CombatWombat posted:Hut of brown, now sit down! That was the best death screen.
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Aug 19, 2010 01:42
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So someone clear this up for me: is it true that being a defiler is strictly better than being a preserver? Mechanics only, because attaching a make believe RP penalty to mechanical rules is stupid. EDIT: Someone who has the book, please Captain Frigate fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Aug 19, 2010 |
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Aug 19, 2010 02:01
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Mechanics only, you have the option of rerolling missed attacks on your dailies if you defile. You do not if you are not defiling, so defilers are better by definition of having an option available to them that strict preservers do not. Add in the fact that there are feats to buff up defiling and none to boost "not-defiling" (but a PP and ED for each) and the option-edge continues to go to defilers. The PP and ED for each are pretty nice, though. The Dragon epic destiny is much more suited to things like infernalocks than a lot of other casters, though (the Dragon pick-2-of-these bonus stats are STR/CON/INT but the Avangion ones are all the mental stats), but each has stuff to recommend it by that point.
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Aug 19, 2010 02:15
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Mechanics only, you have the option of rerolling missed attacks on your dailies if you defile. You do not if you are not defiling, so defilers are better by definition of having an option available to them that strict preservers do not. See this is why I would make defiling something mandatory that happens at character generation, like whenever you use a daily power (or maybe an encounter too) your allies all take some piddly damage all the time, and then giving you the option of rerolling a daily for even more damage, or something. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing you should just be able to turn on or off like a faucet.
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Aug 19, 2010 02:22
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Mechanics only, you have the option of rerolling missed attacks on your dailies if you defile. You do not if you are not defiling, so defilers are better by definition of having an option available to them that strict preservers do not. I've got two options. I can eat a piece of cake, or a bag of sawdust. My friend, not having sawdust, can only eat cake. I have more options than he does. I'm better because I can eat sawdust. defiling is the sawdust because it requires that the party suffer for it in a setting where it's very easy to OHK someone
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Aug 19, 2010 02:28
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Drox posted:I've got two options. I can eat a piece of cake, or a bag of sawdust. My friend, not having sawdust, can only eat cake. I have more options than he does. I'm better because I can eat sawdust. The epic destiny that requires you not defile is ridiculously awesome though and gives you more options than a defiler. 
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Aug 19, 2010 02:35
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An actually valid comparison would be, I have cake. My friend has cake and some ice cream in the fridge. Now, he could eat the ice cream, but it's going to go straight to his thighs, and no one wants that, because then he's going to bitch and moan and make everyone around him miserable. But the ice cream would make the cake taste a little better, so my friend is better off than I am. Also yes holy poo poo Avangion rules if you're in a campaign that will ever face undead EVER
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Aug 19, 2010 02:35
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