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  • Locked thread
neurotech
Apr 22, 2004

Deep in my dreams and I still hear her callin'
If you're alone, I'll come home.

Dillbag posted:

Good point, I'll keep it in the Omegle & Chatroulette threads.

e. VVV Well, the channel is here if anyone's interested. Did a forums search and it appears the Omegle and Chatroulette threads are gone, anyways. The irony is that I've sorta griefed myself - because I don't have permission to broadcast anyone featured I can't apply for revenue sharing and make $$$.

:smith:

Amazing channel. Watched every single video, I love it! Great execution. Where'd you get the clip of Jessica Alba?

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Alpine Mustache
Jul 11, 2000

The Weird posted:

Amazing channel. Watched every single video, I love it! Great execution. Where'd you get the clip of Jessica Alba?

I love how she smiles just before the goatse shows up.

icehewk
Jul 7, 2003

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

brm posted:

One of my favorite instances of griefing was when that guy put out the video of him ninja looting a wow raid. WoW raids used to be 40 people and you used to have to set it on free for all loot because the other preferable method of loot style was bugged. This wasn't a big issue because most of the people doing raids at this point were 'serious' players. When this stuff happened the reaction of people was great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSNIxos60U

My virtual equipment!!!!! NOOOO!!!

Glorious.

Dr_Amazing
Apr 15, 2006

It's a long story

brm posted:

One of my favorite instances of griefing was when that guy put out the video of him ninja looting a wow raid. WoW raids used to be 40 people and you used to have to set it on free for all loot because the other preferable method of loot style was bugged. This wasn't a big issue because most of the people doing raids at this point were 'serious' players. When this stuff happened the reaction of people was great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSNIxos60U

So he just grabbed the loot fastest? Why are they freaking out?

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!

Dr_Amazing posted:

So he just grabbed the loot fastest? Why are they freaking out?

The idea is that you divide the loot up fairly in some way and make sure everyone gets something they can make good use of rather than just taking everything to sell to vendors.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...




Dr_Amazing posted:

So he just grabbed the loot fastest? Why are they freaking out?

Because it's not THEM who got it, mostly.

Dillbag
Mar 4, 2007

Click here to join Lem Lee in the Hell Of Being Cut To Pieces
Nap Ghost

The Weird posted:

Amazing channel. Watched every single video, I love it! Great execution. Where'd you get the clip of Jessica Alba?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmzcKXsllWs

It's very difficult to pull off anymore, sadly. Chatroulette has finally gotten around to actually banning IPs, so it's a ghost town. And on Omegle, once you finally wade through the hundreds of masturbating Brazilians (HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE) and get a live person, they've already seen the Alba clip and disconnect immediately.

Slime
Jan 3, 2007

Dr_Amazing posted:

So he just grabbed the loot fastest? Why are they freaking out?

Also, all of that stuff? Once you have it, you can't actually trade it. So him picking it up means they really can't get it back, and he can't even use it so...

Butt Frosted Cake
Dec 27, 2010

Me and a friend of mine would go around free for all in Modern Warfare 2 and kill boosters, often right before they get the nuke.

GetWellGamers
Apr 11, 2006

The Get-Well Gamers Foundation: Touching Kids Everywhere!

Songbearer posted:

Only if it's your own rear end in a top hat you're goatseing with :colbert:

I just shivered a bit. The goatman has been passed around so much you kind of forget it's human anymore. The goatman simply is, and attempting to parse that onto normal human anatomy is just... :gonk:

Thread just griefed me?

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L :dva: L

GetWellGamers posted:

I just shivered a bit. The goatman has been passed around so much you kind of forget it's human anymore. The goatman simply is, and attempting to parse that onto normal human anatomy is just... :gonk:

Thread just griefed me?

The circle of life keeps on spinning.

I remember the first time I got trolled by the goatman. I was a wee lad and was of course shocked by what I saw. I closed the image and then started laughing hysterically. Is there something wrong with me?

PopeOnARope
Jul 23, 2007

Hey! Quit touching my junk!

Dizz posted:

The meat of life keeps on spinning.

Rev. Bleech_
Oct 19, 2004

~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~

Dizz posted:

The circle of life keeps on spinning.

I remember the first time I got trolled by the goatman. I was a wee lad and was of course shocked by what I saw. I closed the image and then started laughing hysterically. Is there something wrong with me?

I forwarded it to everyone immediately, involuntarily. It's hard to imagine this world without him at this point.

Chumly
Dec 25, 2006

Fingers of Fury posted:

Me and a friend of mine would go around free for all in Modern Warfare 2 and kill boosters, often right before they get the nuke.

Could someone explain this one, please?

vvv Thank you.

Chumly fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Jan 16, 2011

dyzzy
Dec 22, 2009

argh
In MW2 there a bunch of different killstreaks, rewards you get for playing well that are one-time use special abilities, like calling in a helicopter to fly around and shoot the enemy.

The hardest one to get is a nuke, which will simply end the game immediately giving the game to your team regardless of the current score. Needless to say a lot of people really wanted to get this killstreak, and would even go so far as to play games with friends and cooperate to kill each other over and over in a secluded location to get it without the normal effort. Other people found it really fun to go around and hunt these "boosters" and get them angry over not being able to have their egos inflated.

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L :dva: L

Rev. Bleech_ posted:

I forwarded it to everyone immediately, involuntarily. It's hard to imagine this world without him at this point.

I save it as ammunition should I ever get in a fight with one of my friends. I plan on concealing it as an apology.

HonorableTB
Dec 22, 2006
I firmly believe this is the pinnacle of EVE griefing. I'm not sure if it's real or not, but it sure makes for a hell of a good read and it's an easy way to kill 30 minutes or so.

http://www.wirm.net/nightfreeze/part1.html

Caesar Saladin
Aug 15, 2004

brm posted:

One of my favorite instances of griefing was when that guy put out the video of him ninja looting a wow raid. WoW raids used to be 40 people and you used to have to set it on free for all loot because the other preferable method of loot style was bugged. This wasn't a big issue because most of the people doing raids at this point were 'serious' players. When this stuff happened the reaction of people was great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rSNIxos60U

Haha, americans love to say "oh my god." Also, you can absolutely tell that the girl who won't shut up on vent is hugely fat. Like, just by her fat, annoying voice.

Turing sex machine
Dec 14, 2008

I want to have
your robot-babies
:roboluv:

Fonzarelli posted:

Also, you can absolutely tell that the girl who won't shut up on vent is hugely fat. Like, just by her fat, annoying voice.
I can't say I get that impression at all. Are you trying to dehumanize the griefing victims so that you can laugh at their misfortune without shame?

SpazmasterX
Jul 13, 2006

Wrong about everything XIV related
~fartz~
No, she definitely has a fat voice.

Wild T
Dec 15, 2008

The point I'm trying to make is that the only way to come out on top is to kick the Air Force in the nuts, beart it savagely with a weight and take a dump on it's face.

Turing sex machine posted:

I can't say I get that impression at all. Are you trying to dehumanize the griefing victims so that you can laugh at their misfortune without shame?

Isn't that the main idea of griefing?

Turing sex machine
Dec 14, 2008

I want to have
your robot-babies
:roboluv:

Wild T posted:

Isn't that the main idea of griefing?
I don't want to turn the thread into a moral argument, but I for one enjoy mild griefing (like the goatse videos) and the griefing of arrogant assholes (like that Mario Kart story) a lot more than the griefing of presumably innocent strangers.

Quellar
Dec 21, 2007
quit staring at me

Turing sex machine posted:

I can't say I get that impression at all. Are you trying to dehumanize the griefing victims so that you can laugh at their misfortune without shame?

Stop trolling us

Wild T
Dec 15, 2008

The point I'm trying to make is that the only way to come out on top is to kick the Air Force in the nuts, beart it savagely with a weight and take a dump on it's face.

Turing sex machine posted:

I don't want to turn the thread into a moral argument, but I for one enjoy mild griefing (like the goatse videos) and the griefing of arrogant assholes (like that Mario Kart story) a lot more than the griefing of presumably innocent strangers.

Anyone that plays WoW deserves whatever happens to them in-game :colbert:

AXE COP
Apr 16, 2010

i always feel like

somebody's watching me

HonorableTB posted:

I firmly believe this is the pinnacle of EVE griefing. I'm not sure if it's real or not, but it sure makes for a hell of a good read and it's an easy way to kill 30 minutes or so.

http://www.wirm.net/nightfreeze/part1.html

Thank you for this. The site took me to the original thread which is filled with some utterly fantastic griefing stories by some other people. For example:

quote:

A tale of nerds in outer space. Not exactly MMORPG, but ORPG and quite the flimflam.

It was the middle of the infamous Empire/Rebellion war in the Star Wars universe. Being a highly skilled invdividual enlisted in the rebellion allowed me to undertake many extremely dangerous missions that could easily result in the permanent death of my character were I not careful. I was trained in smuggling, slicing into ship computers and other areas of sabotage and disruption. For one particular assignment, I was to approach a prized ISD destroyer orbitting the planet Coruscant, sneak on board with a pilot in tow, cause as much havoc as I could, then escape and call in reinforcements.

The pilot they stuck me with was a complete dope. A wet behind the ears player who barely knew how to tractor a ship and land properly. I was fairly certain I was dead meat on this one, but the laws of the land state that player on player death can not take place without sufficient evidence to warrant it. I realized this meant he was probably dead meat, but I would be able to at least escape with my head still attached.

We launched from Coruscant in a rented system hopper starfighter and drifted a while, ever so slowly approaching the ISD. It could easily lock on and blow us away with one or two shots, very tense kind of atmosphere. Finally when I was nearly rubbing up against the thing I used my fakesignal skill to pop open their landing hatch and guided the fighter inside. Now for the only part of the mission left up to luck; it was assumed that there would be a middle class starship in the hanger area, and as luck would have it, there was! The pilot was to sit tight with the engines revving and ready to go and use his pilot "ship combat" skills to shoot down any pursuit that they sent up once we blew out of the star system.

I turned on my sneak and stealth skills, telling the pilot to stay put as I exited the ship. Only a few NPC guards were on the landing bay, easily dispatched with a grenade. I armed one and placed it on the ground running a bit down the corridor and waiting for the explosion. After the satisfying shrapnel sounds I headed back to the landing bay. Of course, to my dismay, the pilot is laying on the ground unconscious amongst a pile of dead guard bodies. He exited the ship to find me and instead got a body full of hot metal. I used my aid skill on him and told him OOCly that he was loving this whole thing up.

After setting him straight I picked the lock on a middle class FAPS, Fast Attack Patrol Ship. Nice defense and speed, enough to let us make a run for it when a dozen and more ships launched from the planet and the ISD to frag us. I led him to the cockpit and told him to once again, SIT TIGHT. I'd be back in 15 minutes or so and we better be ready to go and very quickly. He said "OK!!" and I left him, making my way through the labyrinth of a starship.

I knew there were lots of Imperials logged in and that at least 3 or 4 MUST be manning this ship. I still don't know how I wasn't hailed or blown to bits when I started landing, but whatever. I worked my way down to the engineering level, finding a nice, dark, quiet place to begin using my sabotage skill on the ship. I worked at all the components; lasers, turrets, thrusters, hyper drive, shields, hull. Disabling the first five and taking a nice dent out of the last. The ship was basically a sitting duck right now. I didn't know what the Imps were up to, probably another RP circle jerk meeting in the captains quarters. For some reason Star Wars nerds love military poo poo. I was all about being an assassin in the dark though.

I finally finish my sabotaging and work my way back to the landing bay ready to bust all hell loose. I still had my stealth and sneak skills on so I was virtually invisible. Wouldn't you know there was the pilot being accosted by two imperial guards. How someone gets arrested inside of a locked ship is beyond me, but he managed it. They interrogated him a bit and I had to think fast. I remember seeing Stormtroopers near the residential level. I ran back and killed one, taking their signature armor and slipping it on. I wandered back to the bay area where the hardcore military fags were still trying to "interrogate" my pilot buddy.

I marched up to them and one of them seemed a bit puzzled. You're supposed to be in RP at all times but OOC info gets tossed around all the time. I told him I was a new recruit, SIR! Would you like me to escort this prisoner to the brig, SIR! Buttering him up seemed to work well as he grew grandiose and prim, telling me that I should escort him to the brig and then bring a "full report" to his office at once (whatever the gently caress, I was so glad this puke was losing his character in a few minutes). The other one was wary and started muttering half a conversation into his comlink, you can only get the one half in this game.

"Who is it?" "He's a stormtrooper" "Aboard the ISD" "Get the emperor if you can... what?" etc. etc. The emperor being a fierce dark jedi that could mind trick my rear end into spilling my guts and then forcing me to cut my own head off against his light saber. I grew a little impatient with my bumbling superiors. "Should I escort him now, SIR!" "Yes, yes, whatever". He was a harmless rebel pilot, nothing of value. I took him down a few decks and ditched my stormtrooper gear, once again telling the dumb pilot stay put while I checked the bay and that if he didn't I'd kill him myself this time.

The two snotty officers were still there talking back and forth and dicking around with military lingo. They finally decide to "report back to the captain" (more circle jerk YES SIR poo poo) and they leave. I gather my pilot buddy from where I stashed him and we head back into the FAPS. I use my comlink and inform the rebellion that one of the most valuable ships in the Empire is a 5,000,000 ton sitting duck, as I used my hijack skill to get the FAPS into outerspace.

Ship launches take an agonizing amount of time, especially when you know that two capital ships and a bunch of middle class starships are hyperjumping into the system to blow up the hunk of metal you're sitting on. I wait patiently, at long last the agonizing thirty seconds almost up and then... oh no! Ascent path blocked! The bay doors are closed!

Oh poo poo! I hop out of the FAPS and open them, cursing snotty shithead Imp officer because I knew he closed them. Finally we launch again, waiting forever. As we hit space we're targetted by the impotent star destroyer in addition to two or three fighters. The empire was wise to what was going on but it was all far too late.

The dumb pilot actually acts quickly, and sets a hyper space course. As it's being calculated I see the rebellion crash into the system and begin slicing the disabled, shieldless capital ship to ribbons. Before we can launch into hyper space it's blown to bits and we leave the debris field at the speed of light.

Everyone escaped alive. We actually got applauded by the admin staff for pulling it off since the rebellion was severely undermatched in resources against the imperials, but the right players can make all the difference I suppose. Seven high ranking Imperials lost their characters on the ship, including the Emperor himself.

Someone had cheated and told him to log into the game via AIM to interrogate some "suspicious people" on the ISD. Luckily his last quit was in fact on that particular capital ship. He "woke up" and headed to the bridge to ask what the hell was going on just in time to be incinerated.

Getting a jedi is a "roll". He had 105 levels of force, insanely strong. I believe someone once said it was a 1:26000 character roll. He was the last uber Jedi that was known in the game world and his character had over five hundred hours of tyranny logged, I'm pretty sure he quit the game after that. Whining to the immortals did nothing towards getting him restored.

I think I got a promotion out of it or something. I didn't really care, I just loved being able to end characters lives permanently in the SWR games and being a slippery poo poo in the RP rules :D

Now tell me this didn't make you immediately google 'Star Wars MUD'.

Hungryjack
May 9, 2003

gently caress that poo poo a grief is a grief. If I got griefed in a big way, I'd be pissed, but after I cooled down I'd like to think I could appreciate the grief for what it was.

Maybe I'm being naive.

buglord
Jul 31, 2010

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Buglord
Does anyone remember that massive EVE online scam/grief in 2006? Some guy manages to forge friendships with some corporation and group of people over the course of a few years, and then totally betrays them and walks off with a hefty sum of money?

quote:

This was published in September's issue of PC Gamer UK, a popular video game article magazine. It is a detailed account of what has to be one of most beautifully executed in-game scams in a MMORPG ever pulled. It breaks all previous world records for 'virtual crime'.

The game in question is Eve Online, an open ended sci-fi mmorpg with a heavy emphasis on roleplaying, where developers try to give their players as much freedom as possible, and where corporate espionage and political intrigue have become an integral part of the game.

The perpetrator of the heist was the Guiding Hand Social Club (GHSC) corporation (a corporation being similar to a clan in Eve); a freelance mercenary outfit that offers their services (which usually involves corp infiltration, theft and assassination) to the highest bidder. Over a year in planning, the GHSC infilitrated their target's corp with their own members and gained their trust, as well as access to the corp hangers, with time. It all concluded in a perfectly timed climax, with a massive theft in multiple corp hangars synchronized with the in-game killing of the corporation's CEO, the primary target of the contract.

What's most interesting and impressive about this operation is that it was entirely 'legal' and within the game's own rules, and the mastermind and his agents pulled it off together flawlessly, all the while staying in character. The estimated real-life value of the items stolen is, according to PC Gamer, $16,500 US. The in-game value of course is much, much higher as the things stolen would take years and years to aquire.

PC Gamer did a story on it:
http://eve.klaki.net/heist/ (Click the page links on the bottom)
This was probably mentioned in the thread numerous times, please disregard if this is retelling #435

Again, serious apologies, but I find this to be the greatest form of griefing. What he did would have probably made the pope cuss if he did it to him, but, pulling something this intricate in a video game really shows how far we've come.

Jeremor
Jun 1, 2009

Drop Your Nuts



The only game I can remember griefing in was Shadowbane, but that entire game was basically built around griefing so it's really cheating to use it as an example. But it's all I've got, so maybe people will find it funny.


I played as a Centaur Priest. Centaurs got a bonus that let them run faster, which was badass, and the Priest class did absolutely nothing but heal and Crowd-control. My priest was built to do both equally well, and with my particular skill-allocation you were able to eternally Crowd-control someone.

You used this certain single-target stun spell and then once the stun wore off, you would then use this root spell(it stops the guy from moving). The thing was that if you trained it to just the right level(not max), the root would last just long enough for the stun's Stun Immunity effect to wear off so you could stun them again and repeat the entire process. There were ways for some classes to break out of the cycle, but even if they broke out of it I could still just chase them down and do it again since I was a Centaur. I used to like to hang my hat on never having lost the race and let anybody get away, no matter how far I had to chase them. I'd keep them tied up as long as I felt like standing around doing it, being as big of an rear end in a top hat as I could to really leave an impression.

Sankis
Mar 8, 2004

But I remember the fella who told me. Big lad. Arms as thick as oak trees, a stunning collection of scars, nice eye patch. A REAL therapist he was. Er wait. Maybe it was rapist?


AXE COP posted:

Now tell me this didn't make you immediately google 'Star Wars MUD'.

I feel a bit sad that I completely understood everything in the story because I played on a Star Wars mud for about 5 years.

HonorableTB
Dec 22, 2006

Avocadoes posted:

Does anyone remember that massive EVE online scam/grief in 2006? Some guy manages to forge friendships with some corporation and group of people over the course of a few years, and then totally betrays them and walks off with a hefty sum of money?


PC Gamer did a story on it:
http://eve.klaki.net/heist/ (Click the page links on the bottom)
This was probably mentioned in the thread numerous times, please disregard if this is retelling #435

Again, serious apologies, but I find this to be the greatest form of griefing. What he did would have probably made the pope cuss if he did it to him, but, pulling something this intricate in a video game really shows how far we've come.

Not to rain on your parade, but I posted this literally 3 or 4 posts above yours. Then again, I might be getting meta-griefed.

Death by Cranes
May 3, 2006

These Blockbuster bombs don't go off unless you hit them ju-u-u-u-st right.

Sorry, but what the hell is this game? It says Black Ops in the description, but Wolfenstein was prettier than this load of manure. What gives?

Also that WoW Angwe guy was pretty legendary.

Misquoter
Nov 2, 2009

A bearded man.
A mushroom cloud.
[Two bears high-fiving.]
Some people here may remember an old game by the name of Nox, it was made by Westwood and played similarly to Diablo, but more focused on PvP action.

It had 3 classes: Warrior(typical melee fighter), Wizard (typical fireballs/lightning/teleporting glass cannon), and the Conjurer (Archer/caster that could summon pets). The multiplayer was almost completely PvP, with Capture the Flag, FFA deathmatch, team deathmatch, and a football variant.

Most people online played Wizards to sneak around invisible and 1-shot people or Warriors to basically mash slower people with impunity; I preferred to avoid conflict altogether. Many of the deathmatch maps had dungeon/castle themed setpieces such as jail cells, pits, and other areas that were generally inaccessible by normal means.

Fortunately, Wizards had a spell called "Teleport to Target" which allowed you to teleport yourself to wherever your mouse pointer is. Combine this with invisibility and traps, which held up to 3 spells and were invisible unless people were actively looking for them; and griefing was simple.

Cue me camping the room with the strongest warrior weapon, setting a trap on it with the teleport spell pointing into a cell and another to make them drop their current weapon; all the while staying invisible since only directly attacking will break it. I could end most games with at least 5-6 people irrevocably trapped in in cells with no weapons to retaliate against a Wizard they couldn't see.

Enemy wizards were a little tougher since they never bothered with the weapon room except to deny it to warriors, but they were manageable since I could drain their mana from invisibility, making them just as helpless as the warriors. Some wizards were quick enough in hitting a mana potion to let themselves teleport out, but most people learned to avoid those areas like the plague.

I kept it up to the point that I managed to spread the fear/hate of "that dickhead wizard" to most of the community and eventually most of the map areas that I could exploit were patched with an exit or removed. People tried raging on the forums to get me banned, but they never did because I wasn't cheating or exploiting a bug, just using map mechanics.

In other maps, specifically ones with water, Wizards could break through the map barrier between solid ground and water by stacking enough traps with a push spell and manually detonating them. Combining this with a swap places spell garnered just as much rage. Trapping almost an entire team in a creek without breaking invisibility is a quick way to cause more than a couple meltdowns from the "elite" players.

The Bible
May 8, 2010

Alpine Mustache posted:

I love how she smiles just before the goatse shows up.

I find it cute that people still react to goatse. Maybe I've been reading SA too long, but it barely gets a raised eyebrow from me anymore. I just seen so much worse on the internet.

:smith:

Mr.Pibbleton
Feb 3, 2006

Aleuts rock, chummer.

The Bible posted:

I find it cute that people still react to goatse. Maybe I've been reading SA too long, but it barely gets a raised eyebrow from me anymore. I just seen so much worse on the internet.

:smith:

My mom saw a political poster for a lemon party that had their website on it, I persuaded her not to visit it, but the conversation was somewhat awkward. It's funny how some corners of the internet are foul yet almost universaly known.

Also those chat griefs were hilarious. :)

Chopstix
Nov 20, 2002

I remember watching an old WoW video where one guy instantly kills like a dozen other people, can anyone help me find it? He dies somehow, and waits inside a cave and waits for a party to come in. He then resurrects or something, and dies again, but kills EVERYONE else while doing it.

Rev. Bleech_
Oct 19, 2004

~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~

Wild T posted:

Anyone that plays WoW deserves whatever happens to them in-game :colbert:

Playing WoW is griefing yourself when you get down to it. The worst kind of grief: the kind that actually costs you real money.

EDIT: It's become something of a yearly tradition to show my mom shock websites while on vacation every year. The fact that she laughed hysterically the first time she saw goatse made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :unsmith:

Rev. Bleech_ fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jan 17, 2011

bunky
Aug 29, 2004

Fonzarelli posted:

Haha, americans love to say "oh my god." Also, you can absolutely tell that the girl who won't shut up on vent is hugely fat. Like, just by her fat, annoying voice.
Haha, yeah! Bloody fat american twats! Good one!

Bridge Keeper
Jul 1, 2007

by T. Finn
Real life eve greifing.

: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvwk4QncSG4

basically mitten is my hero.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

Misquoter posted:

I kept it up to the point that I managed to spread the fear/hate of "that dickhead wizard" to most of the community

This is the funniest part of your story to me. One of the most satisfying things about pranks and griefing is when your personal style becomes well-known enough that your antics garner the response of "ugh, it's that guy :argh:".

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Ziji
Oct 20, 2010
Yossarian lives!
Man... just reading this stuff and watching videos makes me want to play EVE. But I don't know if I can justify the monthly fee.

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