|
Baronjutter posted:and it's not like it's true just because it's on TV That's stupid. People wouldn't watch it if it was full of lies. Yes the truth may be slanted to promote American interests but that doesn't make it a lie. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 18:17 |
|
|
# ? May 21, 2024 17:11 |
|
Frackmire posted:It would only be racist if African mercenaries were known for their humanitarianism at some previous point of time. But they are not even soldiers anymore, they're criminals at best and animals at worst, created by deplorable living and political conditions in that part of the world. Ah yes because white mercenaries involved in slaughters across africa in the past 60 years were so much more humanitarian
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 18:18 |
|
Nenonen posted:And make it look like USA organized the rebellions in the first place. That would only give the armed forces a legitimate reason to fire at protestors - they'd not be fighting against their people's will, they'd be defending their country against a foreign intervention. gently caress, even the protestors would take arms to fight against a US military expedition. It'd be just another quagmire of civil war like Iraq. Good points, although I was thinking more of the State Dept covertly offering dial-in Internet Access (like a French ISP did when Egypt cut the net) more than some hand-handed military intervention. Either way, you're probably right that being too supportive of the protesters will likely backfire.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 18:27 |
|
Frackmire posted:It would only be racist if African mercenaries were known for their humanitarianism at some previous point of time. But they are not even soldiers anymore, they're criminals at best and animals at worst, created by deplorable living and political conditions in that part of the world. Yeah, that's the kind of racist tone he was mentioning. One thing we need to keep reminding ourselves to focus on what's happening, resist the urge to generalize, and try to get informed about the very different context for each situation we're looking at. Generalizing Chad troops (whose symbiotic relationship with Libya is an interesting thing to note) as typical African bushwackers doesn't really help you understand the situation. Also, now we're saying that African mercenaries are the only ones who act like animals? Iraq, Equitarial Guinea, Nicuaraga, etc would like to disagree with you.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 18:27 |
|
Wait, so there are undersupplied protesters in Libya fighting against an enemy with many more tanks? Where's Ghost Rommel when we need him?
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 18:41 |
|
Gaddafi is threatening to stop co-operating with the EU over illegal immigration if they don't stop encouraging the protesters, ie criticising Libya for murdering protesters.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:03 |
|
Brown Moses posted:Gaddafi is threatening to stop co-operating with the EU over illegal immigration if they don't stop encouraging the protesters, ie criticising Libya for murdering protesters. Oh gently caress, now we're screwed. Time to send some arms and trained snipers to support Gaddafi! IMMIGRANTS
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:19 |
|
ganglysumbia posted:Aljazeera just reported protesters have captured tanks and are driving them through the city.... edit: How easy is it to drive a tank without training anyway? I just realized I have no idea how they operate. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Feb 20, 2011 |
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:22 |
|
Samurai Sanders posted:There's something about stealing an oppressor's tank and using it against them that makes me feel all awesome inside. Same as in Return of the Jedi when the ewoks stole the walker and started blowing poo poo up left and right. The actual driving bit is similar enough to driving a car that most anyone should be able to figure it out easily. As far as I am aware most tanks are driven in the same way as any other tracked vehicle.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:52 |
|
Samurai Sanders posted:edit: How easy is it to drive a tank without training anyway? I just realized I have no idea how they operate. Driving them is pretty easy. Firing the main gun would be a bit more difficult, unless it's a very old model.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:53 |
|
Some really good pictures from Benghazi http://www.flickr.com/photos/a7fadhomar/ Xandu fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Feb 20, 2011 |
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:54 |
|
edit: okay it looks like I was wrong, according to CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/afric...+Top+Stories%29quote:The clashes escalated after the incident, centered around the military camp. Protesters packed at least one car with explosives Sunday and sent it crashing into a compound wall at the camp, eyewitnesses said. Security forces then fired on the protesters as they attempted to breach the camp. Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Feb 20, 2011 |
# ? Feb 20, 2011 19:56 |
|
Astrolite posted:Driving them is pretty easy. Firing the main gun would be a bit more difficult, unless it's a very old model. edit: vvv yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:03 |
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Eh, no need to bother with the gun, the tank itself can be plenty destructive. Killdozer goes global.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:04 |
|
Brown Moses posted:Gaddafi is threatening to stop co-operating with the EU over illegal immigration if they don't stop encouraging the protesters, ie criticising Libya for murdering protesters. Gaddafi is like a villain from a Stephen King novel. He has a wicked sense of humor, isn't completely in touch with reality, and doesn't always take himself seriously, but when poo poo comes to shove he's downright loving evil.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:06 |
|
THE HORSES rear end posted:Gaddafi is like a villain from a Stephen King novel. He has a wicked sense of humor, isn't completely in touch with reality, and doesn't always take himself seriously, but when poo poo comes to shove he's downright loving evil. So he's basically Scorpio from the Simpsons.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:12 |
|
BIG HORNY COW posted:Should clarify - I think its past the point of no return in LIBYA. That's the impression I'm getting. I can't see things settling down with business going on as usual after these massacres. I suspect that Gaddafi will go down like Hitler (suicide) or possibly like Ceausescu.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:13 |
|
Revolution breaks out in Thailand and Morocco. Thailand sounds bloody: quote:Thai Red Shirts rally in Thailand’s capital http://www.discountvouchers.co.uk/news/163593535.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter And in Morocco, the Hamburglar was shot and killed: quote:Plainclothes police mingled among the demonstrators in Rabat, though police were generally discreet. Most marches took place peacefully, officials said. http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/world/story/9142851/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter I probably shouldn't make fun of Morocco's revolution but
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:14 |
|
Apology posted:And in Morocco, the Hamburglar was shot and killed:
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:21 |
|
Xandu posted:I really shouldn't be laughing this hard right now From Libya: quote:Gaddafi vows not to flee Libya- sources http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=24232 Now why does this sound so familiar?
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:25 |
|
Apology posted:Now why does this sound so familiar? The difference is that he probably won't be able to flee. I'm having trouble thinking of who would accept him.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:27 |
|
Xandu posted:The difference is that he probably won't be able to flee. I'm having trouble thinking of who would accept him. KJI might take Ghadaffi in, but only on the condition that he brings his Amazon brigade along with him. More seriously though, Ghadaffi is pretty much hosed. Mubarak was rightfully denounced for how he handled the protests in Egypt, but it sounds like what is happening in Libya is a straight-up war declared on the general populace. Even Ghadaffi's most steadfast buddies outside of Libya will be hard-pressed to look past that assuming he does escape. If he doesn't, he's going to die in a very unpleasant fashion once the protesters get their hands on him if he doesn't kill himself first.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:36 |
|
Xandu posted:The difference is that he probably won't be able to flee. I'm having trouble thinking of who would accept him. It's usually Saudi Arabia that accepts deposed dictators, but he doesn't get along with them. He gets along very well with Hugo Chavez but after this I don't really see Venezuela accepting him. Some of African countries with very corrupt leaderships might take him. Mauritania, maybe? I don't really know. Saif Gaddafi is apparently going to give a televised address soon. I have no idea where that's going to go.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:37 |
|
Lol if you think Gadaffi won't find refuge in Burkina Faso or some lovely country
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:40 |
|
quote:Some of African countries with very corrupt leaderships might take him. Mauritania, maybe? I don't really know. Yeah that seems the most plausible to me, but I don't know which ones in particular. He's made a lot of enemies over the years and after this massacre, most countries will consider him untouchable.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:41 |
|
Has the situation in Libya really gone past the tipping point? Gaddafi can still win this.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:46 |
|
Thundarr posted:KJI might take Ghadaffi in, but only on the condition that he brings his Amazon brigade along with him. What it depends on is if there are independent institutions in Libya able to counteract Ghaddafi, like you saw in Egypt. There needs to be something pushing on the inside as well as the outside. Didn't a previous poster state that Libya's military was basically Ghaddafi's bootlickers?
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:48 |
|
Democrazy posted:Has the situation in Libya really gone past the tipping point? Gaddafi can still win this. I think it has. He can't win it without killing everybody. It's not confined to one city like it was in the beginning, he's starting to lose his base of tribal support, the fact that he's bringing in mercenaries means he can't rely on the army (some divisions are totally loyal to him, like the one commanded by his son, but not all). I can easily see him continuing to massacre people over the next week, but I don't see a way out of this for him.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:49 |
|
Astrolite posted:Driving them is pretty easy. Firing the main gun would be a bit more difficult, unless it's a very old model. Honestly if you can operate a T55 in Balkans on Fire, you can probably operate one in real life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Warriors:_T-72_Tank_Commander Or maybe someone can just get them the manual: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1969-russian-ussr-soviet-army-t55-tank-manual
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:54 |
|
So, there is a lot of focus on Lybia and Bahrain currently, but what are the details, if any, on Iran and China? AJE mentioned something that protesters in Iran have been injured by the security forces via teargas, and they're camping in the streets overnight, but nothing concrete. And in China, how easy is it for citizens to get outside information (I.E. Al Jazeera, etc.)?
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:57 |
|
Xandu posted:I think it has. He can't win it without killing everybody. It's not confined to one city like it was in the beginning, he's starting to lose his base of tribal support, the fact that he's bringing in mercenaries means he can't rely on the army (some divisions are totally loyal to him, like the one commanded by his son, but not all). I can easily see him continuing to massacre people over the next week, but I don't see a way out of this for him. If any force is going to continue the protests, and assaults on his regime, it'll be the Berbers, whom he's oppressed and spouted a lot of bigoted things.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 20:57 |
|
Sivias posted:So, there is a lot of focus on Lybia and Bahrain currently, but what are the details, if any, on Iran and China? I wouldn't hold your breath on China-- widespread civil unrest is virtually inevitable, but there's nothing to suggest it will start now. From what I understand, it's possible to find one's way around the Great Firewall if the user is determined enough, the government just has to make it enough of a hassle so that 99% of the population never bothers.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:00 |
|
Suntory BOSS posted:...China-- ...Great Firewall... They sure like their walls.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:02 |
|
It sounds lıke Libya is on the verge of civil war now it sounds like army units are joining the protesters and distributing weapons among them. With tribalism being so strong in Libya I can really see things getting very polarised and violent in Libya. I hope Galewolf is out of their. AJE just said the Libyian Arab League representative has just resigned. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Feb 20, 2011 |
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:06 |
|
Brown Moses posted:It sounds lıke Libya is on the verge of civil war now it sounds like army units are joining the protesters and distributing weapons among them. With tribalism being so strong in Libya I can really see things getting very polarised and violent in Libya. I hope Galewolf is out of their. How long would a civil war last though? The majority of the populations supports the revolt, and a growing percentage of the army is in support of it. On the other side, the army regulars are dwindling, and so Qaddafi is having to rely on mercenaries, who will turn tail and stop flowing in once the situation gets too bad.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:09 |
|
There's already a lot of civil unrest in China, especially in the agricultural areas, it's just not clear how much is directly aimed at the central government instead of local usage of those policies. It's also not clear that such discontent is focused enough to mount any sort of threat to the central government. China may be a barrel of gunpowder, but it seems to be a wet powder for now.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:09 |
|
Suntory BOSS posted:I wouldn't hold your breath on China-- widespread civil unrest is virtually inevitable, but there's nothing to suggest it will start now. From what I understand, it's possible to find one's way around the Great Firewall if the user is determined enough, the government just has to make it enough of a hassle so that 99% of the population never bothers. That's not true for young people, getting around internet censorship is commonplace in China. In fact I'd wager that the average university aged Chinese citizen is more informed than the average American consuming traditional news media. The only reason China will not revolt anytime soon is that everyone can easily afford food and the country has a good future if the status quo is maintained.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:12 |
|
Xandu posted:I think it has. He can't win it without killing everybody. And??? That's like saying "you can't get rid of this chocolate cake without eating it". In 1982 the Muslim Brotherhood of Syria started a rebellion in Hama, the fourth largest city in Syria that had a population of 250,000 at the time. In response President al-Assad besieged Hama with army special forces, ordered for the city to surrender and declared that anyone staying would be considered a rebel. Then the city was bombed by airplanes, artillery and tanks for almost a month. 10,000-40,000 people died and many more lost their homes. The Muslim Brotherhood was not a problem after that. That's how you roll the ball in a dictatorship. For Mubarak this wasn't so much a chance, because Egypt depends on western tourists and his power wasn't that strong anyway. But Gaddafi has got nothing to lose. It all depends on his control of the army, and his ability to use non-local divisions to suppress the uprisings. If the army defects, then he's screwed. But that is not very likely. Gaddafi took power as a Libyan army captain, and since then he's taken good care of not letting others do the same.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:12 |
|
Gravel Gravy posted:How long would a civil war last though? The majority of the populations supports the revolt, and a growing percentage of the army is in support of it. On the other side, the army regulars are dwindling, and so Qaddafi is having to rely on mercenaries, who will turn tail and stop flowing in once the situation gets too bad. Tripoli is still rather quiet, as Gudaffi has his supporters are out constantly on the streets crushing any dissent, if this protest is to succeed, this must spread there.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:12 |
|
|
# ? May 21, 2024 17:11 |
|
Nenonen posted:
I'm aware of what happened in Hama. Some differences 1. The uprising in Hama was largely Islamist and confined to the area. Here it's spread throughout the country and has a wider base of support. There's a huge size difference between the protests as well, tons of people have come out in Libya. 2. The Syrian stranglehold over the media meant that nobody in rest of the country knew what was happening till it was over and even then, the official version of what happened was far from reality. Nowadays, video from Benghazi is on CNN and al-Jazeera and facebook) and quickly spread around the country. Gaddafi can't hide the truth from his own people. 3. The Syrian Defence Companies that went into Hama were comprised solely of Alawites (minority group that is in power) utterly loyal to the end. Here we have mercenaries and al-Jazeera just reported that they confirmed members of the army have already split from Gaddafi's forces in Benghazi. In addition, tribal groups that usually support Gaddafi have come out against him. He's starting to lose his support network.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2011 21:23 |