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Someone on AJE just said that the main security compound in Benghazi is in the control of the protesters, and he believes about 90% of the city is under control of the protesters.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:24
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Nonsense posted:Tripoli is still rather quiet, as Gudaffi has his supporters are out constantly on the streets crushing any dissent, if this protest is to succeed, this must spread there. Much quieter, but things are happening in Tripoli. Caller on AJE says 2000-3000 gathered to march towards the Garden Square while burning pictures of Gaddafi. No army presence, protesters have blocked things off. I've also heard reports of gunfire and mercenaries in Tripoli.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:27
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Nenonen posted:Gaddafi took power as a Libyan army captain, and since then he's taken good care of not letting others do the same. Well Mubarak also had his roots in the Egyptian army and was a big figurehead there. But ultimately this did not help him and his army buddies left him stranded. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 20, 2011 |
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Feb 20, 2011 21:32
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Sivias posted:And in China, how easy is it for citizens to get outside information (I.E. Al Jazeera, etc.)? China is extremely filtered as far as the internet and so on, but it really comes down to will the people there band together? Who knows. The courage is spreading, but it takes that commitment of the first people getting out on the streets and some dying. Maybe the Chinese are actually satiated enough by their booming economy to not want to do that. It's pretty hard to understand from our Western vantage point which other countries will change exactly.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:36
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Suntory BOSS posted:I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this could be the beginning of a Fourth Wave of Democracy and that the United States should put strategic and political considerations momentarily aside in order to aggressively promote and support nonviolent people's movements against autocratic regimes. What's Bahrain going to do, kick out the 5th Fleet and stare down Iran themselves? What will Yemen do, turn away our counter-terrorism aid and training?
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Feb 20, 2011 21:37
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Astrolite posted:Driving them is pretty easy. Firing the main gun would be a bit more difficult, unless it's a very old model. Yeah, it's not like the entire male population of the country didn't serve in the armed forces. Chade Johnson posted:Lol if you think Gadaffi won't find refuge in Burkina Faso or some lovely country Yeah, Gadaffi will like run to France or Italy, where he can live in exile in luxury.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:42
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Jut posted:Maybe America should mind it's own drat business and let things happen naturally. As if nearly a century of meddling in middle east affairs turned out well. This is a very ignorant statement. America owes it's standard of living on the control these despots and dictators have on their country and resources. The idea that we have no interest in controlling the outcome of these events is really obtuse.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:43
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http://libya.blog-video.tv/ This is a live audio feed from the protestors. It's in Arabic with no translations, It appears they have captured the state radio broadcasting HQ and are coordinating the demonstrations via the state owned media.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:45
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Young Freud posted:Gadaffi will like run to France or Italy, where he can live in exile in luxury. Why do I get the feeling that Muamar and Sylvio would get along like franks & beans?
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Feb 20, 2011 21:49
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Sivias posted:This is a very ignorant statement. America owes it's standard of living on the control these despots and dictators have on their country and resources. The idea that we have no interest in controlling the outcome of these events is really obtuse. Wait, so you're happy for these people to have a lovely quality of life, just so you can enjoy yours?
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Feb 20, 2011 21:50
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Jut posted:Wait, so you're happy for these people to have a lovely quality of life, just so you can enjoy yours? I never once said I agree with it. The idea that you read what I posted as anything other than an unbiased statement is concerning.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:53
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Sivias posted:This is a very ignorant statement. America owes it's standard of living on the control these despots and dictators have on their country and resources. The idea that we have no interest in controlling the outcome of these events is really obtuse. You said it best, "This is a very ignorant statement." Many people care more about justice than having the latest plasma screen.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:54
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Hammerstein posted:Well Mubarak also had his roots in the Egyption army and was a big figurehead there. But ultimately this did not help him and his army buddies left him stranded. He did, but still Egypt was not as much under his thumb. Mubarak rose to power because he was Sadat's deputy - he was injured from the same bomb that killed Sadat, who in turn had been the vice president of Nasser. This is not as strong a base of power as Gaddafi's who has been the sole leader since 1969 and has been able to shape all aspects of the Libyan state to his liking without older party members interfering.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:54
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Sivias posted:I never once said I agree with it. The idea that you read what I posted as anything other than an unbiased statement is concerning. The text under his unername makes so much sense now.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:55
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TO UNDERAGE GYMNASTS
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GnatKingCoal posted:Why do I get the feeling that Muamar and Sylvio would get along like franks & beans? I'm not sure, didn't Gadaffi persecute the Italian Libyans and attempt to drive them out? Berlusconi's a dictator-loving scumbag, but if there's any dictator he might not like, it'd probably be Gadaffi. Then again Berlusconi might not care about Italian Libyans.
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Feb 20, 2011 21:56
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Videos from Misrata, appears to be a funeral procession/protest. https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150101657233094&oid=197898230226131 https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150101654198094&oid=197898230226131 edit: Also in Misrata, tearing down of that ridiculous green book symbol. https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150101650728094&oid=197898230226131
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Feb 20, 2011 22:00
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Spiky Ooze posted:China is extremely filtered as far as the internet and so on, but it really comes down to will the people there band together? Who knows. The courage is spreading, but it takes that commitment of the first people getting out on the streets and some dying. Maybe the Chinese are actually satiated enough by their booming economy to not want to do that. It's pretty hard to understand from our Western vantage point which other countries will change exactly. I would love to know how this first spread in China, and what started the physical reaction on the ground. So happy!
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Feb 20, 2011 22:09
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Jut posted:Wait, so you're happy for these people to have a lovely quality of life, just so you can enjoy yours? And do all Americans enjoy this standard of living? It seems like a bad way to support a lovely foreign policy when most of the people in this country are barely surviving. It's in the boat as 'well, you're not as bad off as <insert African country name here>' to avoid actual discussion.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:10
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Jut posted:Wait, so you're happy for these people to have a lovely quality of life, just so you can enjoy yours? No. His point was that Americans do have interests in these nations. Just not interests we like to admit, or like to think of ourselves as having; the same way we have an interest in maintaining the terrible quality of life of people who make iPhones because we like cheap electronics, even if we will then go to Starbucks and buy fair trade coffee. IN OTHER WORDS He was responding to the first part of your statement ("Let America mind its own business") - technically speaking, what happens there IS our business, in a globalized world. Better off for us to just let alone, period, without characterizing whose or what business it is. e: which is how I feel. I don't think we can intervene in these conflicts. There are things we can do from a distance, to a certain extent, as we did during the divestment from South Africa. But other than that, all we can do is pray for the protestors.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:17
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Petey posted:No. His point was that Americans do have interests in these nations. Just not interests we like to admit, or like to think of ourselves as having; the same way we have an interest in maintaining the terrible quality of life of people who make iPhones because we like cheap electronics, even if we will then go to Starbucks and buy fair trade coffee. Suddenly I look around my decimated state of Michigan, and realize that maybe we should bring things back home. I know there is some things that can't, but it seems spending tax money on a horrific foreign policy designed to make corporate lives easier while we all go jobless (and hence worthless without a social safety net) is counterproductive. Maybe we should start thinking about what really benefits Americans and stop listening to Republicans who have a vested interest in complete destruction.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:19
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Also, a new relevant article: http://www.allfacebook.com/egyptian-baby-girl-named-facebook-after-revolution-2011-02 As the url indicates, a man from Egypt (Jamal Ibrahim) named his daughter Facebook Jamal Ibrahim. quote:“Facebook” received many gifts from the youth who were overjoyed by her arrival and the new name. What are good analogies for events in the past about people being named after revolutionary stuff? Heh.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:20
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:And do all Americans enjoy this standard of living? It seems like a bad way to support a lovely foreign policy when most of the people in this country are barely surviving. It's in the boat as 'well, you're not as bad off as <insert African country name here>' to avoid actual discussion. hang on a second, this is the post I was initially replying to quote:I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this could be the beginning of a Fourth Wave of Democracy and that the United States should put strategic and political considerations momentarily aside in order to aggressively promote and support nonviolent people's movements against autocratic regimes. What's Bahrain going to do, kick out the 5th Fleet and stare down Iran themselves? What will Yemen do, turn away our counter-terrorism aid and training? Where I suggested that maybe America stays the gently caress out of this for a change, and let's the respective countries work things out for themselves, instead of the US getting involved and manipulating the situation to benefit themselves at the expense of other populations. You know...repeating history and all that.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:20
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Chade Johnson posted:That's stupid. People wouldn't watch it if it was full of lies. Yes the truth may be slanted to promote American interests but that doesn't make it a lie. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this. They don't really watch it though, and for good reasons.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:20
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:Suddenly I look around my decimated state of Michigan, and realize that maybe we should bring things back home. I agree 
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Feb 20, 2011 22:23
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Jut posted:Where I suggested that maybe America stays the gently caress out of this for a change, and let's the respective countries work things out for themselves, instead of the US getting involved and manipulating the situation to benefit themselves at the expense of other populations. You know...repeating history and all that. It's also naive to think that America is the only nation with vested interests in manipulating or participating in the changes in these regions. AJE reported that 79% of Libya's oil exports go to Europe. Isolationism is an unrealistic idealism that will not work with such deeply dug in globalization.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:28
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Sivias posted:It's also naive to think that America is the only nation with vested interests in manipulating or participating in the changes in these regions. I don't think it's unrealistic. I think it's incoherent. But you can still practice military nonintervention. Which I don't think is either unrealistic or idealistic - at least, not in the sense you're using it.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:30
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I can agree with that.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:31
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If anyone wants to hate on some celebrities I was surprised to find out gaddafi ships them over every now and then on his peoples dime. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/05/hannibal-gaddafi-pays-bey_n_411602.html Nice if beyonce put up the 2 million for aid
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Feb 20, 2011 22:40
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Xandu posted:Yeah that seems the most plausible to me, but I don't know which ones in particular. He's made a lot of enemies over the years and after this massacre, most countries will consider him untouchable. North Sudan may take him since he supported them in the war against the South and Bashir doesn't need to worry what the outside world thinks since he's already a pariah. Gaddafi could be living it up in that egg shaped building in Khartoum 
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Feb 20, 2011 22:50
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Gaddafi's son is named Hanibal  It's like he's actively trying to create an evil villain image for himself.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:52
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sweeptheleg posted:If anyone wants to hate on some celebrities I was surprised to find out gaddafi ships them over every now and then on his peoples dime. Academics as well http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/18/the_shores_of_tripoli quote:I was invited to give a lecture to its Economic Development Board, following in the footsteps of a number of other recent American visitors, including Frank Fukuyama, Bernard Lewis, Joseph Nye, Robert Putnam, Anne-Marie Slaughter, and Richard Perle (!).
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Feb 20, 2011 22:52
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Gaddafi's son is named Hanibal The original Hannibal, I think. A hero to the Carthaginians.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:53
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GnatKingCoal posted:The original Hannibal, I think. A hero to the Carthaginians. That completely slipped my mind. Xandu posted:Academics as well I like these parts: quote:The Libyans with whom I spoke were open and candid and gave no sign of being worried about being overheard or reported or anything like that. This quote deserves it's own section: quote:Yet a fortuitous combination of multilateral sanctions, patient diplomacy, and Libyan re-thinking has produced a noticeable detente in recent years. In a rare display of policy continuity, the Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II administrations managed to simultaneously keep the pressure on and keep the door to reconciliation open. (Great Britain played a key role here too, and the effort may have succeeded precisely because Washington remained in the background). This effort paid off in when Libya agreed to dismantle all of its WMD programs in 2003 and to re-engage with the West. (A key part of that deal, by the way, was George W. Bush's decision to explicitly renounce the goal of "regime change," in sharp contrast to his approach to some other countries.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:58
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Jut posted:Where I suggested that maybe America stays the gently caress out of this for a change, and let's the respective countries work things out for themselves, instead of the US getting involved and manipulating the situation to benefit themselves at the expense of other populations. You know...repeating history and all that. I personally think they have been getting involved in their affairs and it was (for once) actually a good thing. When you look at the time frame: 1- President gives speech in support of Iran protests, says the difference from Egypt is Iran's using violence to suppress it. 2- Bahrain, with Saudi blessing, decides crush them all is a good tactic to take with their protesters. 3- Hillary gives a rambling, backpedaling interview that sounds like she's suffering from a head injury when the contradiction is brought up. 4- Bahrain's leaders suddenly decides instead of crushing the protesters, they want to negotiate with them. I have a feeling between 3 and 4 someone from the state department gave a call to Bahrain and said to them "You assholes, you made us look stupid. You best fix this and fix it now or there will only be an empty base between you and Iran."
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Feb 20, 2011 22:59
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From the AJE Live Blog:quote:Online reports claim remaining pro-Gaddafi militia in Benghazi, around the Elfedeel Bu Omar compound, "are being butchered by angry mobs". It is impossible to verify the claims, though Al Jazeera has spoken with several people in the city who say protesters control the city, as security forces flee to the airport.
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Feb 20, 2011 23:00
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GnatKingCoal posted:The original Hannibal, I think. A hero to the Carthaginians. Correct.
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Feb 20, 2011 23:01
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Gaddafi's son is named Hanibal Yeesh. The guy even looks like an amalgamation of different criminal scum. The amount of things he got away with thanks to diplomatic immunity is a bit of a head turner. 
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Feb 20, 2011 23:03
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Brown Moses posted:From the AJE Live Blog: I won't post them because it's just gratuitous violence, but in some of the videos of captured mercenaries that are floating around, they're basically being dragged through the streets bloodied and beaten.
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Feb 20, 2011 23:04
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Violent revolution is never pretty, but at this point it's hard to see how Qaddafi secures power if his mercenary forces just got crushed. Anyone more familiar with Libya have any idea where Qaddafi could pull out a counter-revolutionary corps to fight any anti regime force coming form Benghazi?
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Feb 20, 2011 23:11
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tetsul posted:I personally think they have been getting involved in their affairs and it was (for once) actually a good thing. When you look at the time frame: I doubt it, I'm betting that the rest of the GCC have put pressure on Bahrain not to gently caress things up for the rest of them. Having lived out in Qatar for two years, I can tell you that out of all the GCC countries, Bahrain is the weakest link.
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Feb 20, 2011 23:12
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