Young Freud posted:

Holy poo poo. That's a blast from the past. I did that about a year ago. I forgot what the thread was, something about "real" children's books.

It's nice to see someone saved it.

Nenonen posted:

This is the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWIbCtz_Xwk

At 2:39 mark the crowd starts a whistling concert and Ceausescu and his wife totally lose the situation.

Four days later, on Christmas day, they were executed.

QuentinCompson posted:

Yes, and while we're at it, why don't you start talking about how they're savages who can't govern themselves?

Close your racist trap.

Jut posted:

Although the 1989 revolution was more of a political coup d'etat than anything. Just look who took power afterwards, Ion Iliescu and his merry band of communists.

Jut posted:

He's pretty much right though, I lived in Qatar for two years, and you learn pretty quick that people over there really hate to lose face.

Limbo posted:

He just needed something to tie it all together...perhaps some kind of chalkboard.

Nenonen posted:

You could say the same thing about Boris Yeltsin and his merry band of communists, but that would be misleading. The communist leaders were overthrown by popular uprisings, not by backstage maneuverings (the military arrest of Gorbachev was a true coup). That many of the new leaders had been members of the old ruling party should not be surprising in what used to be a one party state.

QuentinCompson posted:

I'm so glad that you've lived in Qatar for two years and you feel that this grants you sufficient credibility to state that you support a statement coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between Iranians and Arabs and asserts that they're backwards.

I've lived in New York City, so I can say bigoted things about a lot of groups! Boy oh boy, which one should I start with.

QuentinCompson posted:

I'm so glad that you've lived in Qatar for two years and you feel that this grants you sufficient credibility to state that you support a statement coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between Iranians and Arabs and asserts that they're backwards.

I've lived in New York City, so I can say bigoted things about a lot of groups! Boy oh boy, which one should I start with.

Xandu posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosiAgoiWow

Weapon used against protesters in Benghazi.

Xandu posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosiAgoiWow

Weapon used against protesters in Benghazi.

Xandu posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosiAgoiWow

Weapon used against protesters in Benghazi.

Jut posted:

A free and fair democracy it isn't

Young Freud posted:

That's an FN-303 Less-Lethal Launcher, made by the Belgian arms company, Fabrique Nationale.

They're essentially high-powered paintball guns, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be capable of killing someone. The Boston PD had all of theirs destroyed back in 2007 because of a lawsuit stemming from an officer missing a target and hitting an innocent bystander in the eye, killing her, during the near-riot following the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004.

e:fb

Xandu posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosiAgoiWow

Weapon used against protesters in Benghazi.

Nenonen posted:

I'll take your word for that, but... how is any of that even in the slightest related to anything?

Xandu posted:

Don't feel like wading into this, but the reality is complicated. People in the US care a lot about saving face as well; there certainly are differences between the American and Arab culture, but it's a mistake to generalize millions of people and it's easy to take the idea of "arabs care about honor" too far and become orientalist if you don't acknowledge that culture is flexible and not everyone embodies their culture.

Jut posted:

twitter is reporting more fighting in Green Square...AJE is showing some dude cooking :s

quote:

Cairo — Egypt could soon be looking for a new economic model - one that will be different from the traditional system that has been promoted for years by international financial institutions such as the World Bank, the IMF, and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), under the reign of ousted president Hosni Mubarak.

"Lots of Egyptians after the revolution realized the level of injustice against them, and that they were being ripped off for many years," Abulezz Al-Hariri, a former opposition member of parliament, told IPS.

"They started asking for their rights," he added. "This cabinet is just trying to cater to that immediate realization."

Since the mid 1980's, the World Bank, the IMF, and USAID have sought to encourage policies that limit the role of government in the economy, cut budget deficits, and give more influence to the private sector and corporations.

Under pressure from the public following the success of the January revolution, the government of Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq - originally appointed by Mubarak but kept by the military to run the everyday affairs until new elections are held - quickly rolled back some of the controversial policies.

Many of the moves announced over the past few days are designed to be a quick fix to the economic situation faced by millions of Egyptians who are eager to enjoy concrete benefits of the 18-day revolution in which 365 protesters died.

The new government has announced that all citizens are eligible to apply for monthly portions of sugar, cooking oil, and rice. The previous cabinet, which was comprised of businessmen and former corporate executives, had frozen the rations.

This decision overturned the previous policy of providing monthly rations only to those who prove they are poor through a lengthy process of paperwork and red tape.

Last week, new finance minister Samir Radwan said that the country will not change its current subsidies system, which offers reduced food prices for some 65 million Egyptians.

Furthermore, the new government promised to offset any extra cost in food prices that might accompany rising prices internationally. Radwan put the initial cost at 2.8 billion Egyptian pounds (about 425 million dollars).

Under the new policies, the health ministry will offer free health care 24 hours a day at public hospitals. Days before the Jan. 25 revolution, the Mubarak regime had limited free health care hours from 8:00 am to 1:00 pm.

Temporary workers who have spent at least three years working for the government will now be given permanent contracts that carry higher salaries, and benefits such as pension plans, and health and social insurance.

Many municipalities also saw long lines of applicants after the interim government said that it will offer subsidized housing for young people on an expedited basis.

And on Wednesday, the Central Bank of Egypt said it will be a "guarantor" to achieve the demands of banking sector employees, which include curbing top management compensation packages and salaries as well as offering greater benefits for employees.

But while the new measures remain limited, their implementation has raised questions about whether Egypt may be heading back to its strong socialist past, which flourished under the rule of former president Gamal Abdelnasser, who ran the country in 1950's and 1960's.

Some officials say that the new programmes constitute an initial reaction from a team known for its pro-capitalist background and are only temporary.

"We are not moving back to a socialist past," Amina Ghanem, deputy finance minister, told IPS. "We are just trying to extinguish fires."

"We are not going to lose our reforms," said Ghanem, who was also deputy to outgoing finance minister Youssef Botrous Ghali. "We want people to work and not take charity from the government."

For measures already announced, the interim government will find funding by re-allocating spending to more high-priority areas, rather than re-making the Egyptian economy, she said.

"Instead of spending now on, say, for example, landscaping, we'll re-channel that money to more urgent needs," she explained.

Al-Hariri, a member of the left-of-centre Tagammu Party, agreed that the current interim government is not taking a U-turn away from capitalist policies inspired by Western financial institutions.

"Their measures are just like tranquilizers; something to kill the pain but not cure anything," he said.

Al-Hariri added that past policies under Mubarak were not effective and that any future government should find an alternative. He recommended long- term plans to create more jobs, and what he called "real industries" and "real investments".

Confiscating wealth looted by cronies of the former regime, more egalitarian distribution of wealth, gradual taxation, better government oversight, and placing "a reasonable ceiling" on profitability of goods and services sold to the public are among the measures that should restore an economic balance to society, he said.

Mamdouh Al-Wali, a business writer with the Al-Ahram Daily newspaper, said Egypt's path towards a new economic direction will be fraught with dangers from deeply-rooted interests, such as businesses, former regime symbols, and international financial institutions.

"A future new government, even though elected, may not be able to resist all that counter-pressure," he told IPS. "The change will be hard."

Petey posted:

well, this owns
http://allafrica.com/stories/201102210060.html


from EC in LF

Dieting Hippo posted:

but....but SOCIALISM

RoofieMyselfForFun posted:

I will laugh so loving hard if Egypt becomes a more respectable and stable economy in five years, especially providing regular humanitarian needs like heathcare. I would love to see opponents to UHC dispute that

Xandu posted:

Don't feel like wading into this, but the reality is complicated. People in the US care a lot about saving face as well; there certainly are differences between the American and Arab culture, but it's a mistake to generalize millions of people and it's easy to take the idea of "arabs care about honor" too far and become orientalist if you don't acknowledge that culture is flexible and not everyone embodies their culture.


This appears to be an FN303 less-lethal projectile launcher. France sold 1500 to Libya in 2008.

Dieting Hippo posted:

You can easily dispute that. Their socialized death panel care money comes from terrorist organizations because, let's face it, they're brown people in the middle east. What do you mean they have no ties to terrorist organizations, they speak in the funny little squiggles like all the terrorists do!

Petey posted:

well, this owns
http://allafrica.com/stories/201102210060.html

The-Mole posted:

The-Mole posted:

Which belies the real point: the only way to criticize a Middle Easterner is to sandwich it between two compliments.

Rotacixe posted:

There is a cultural thing which makes accepting responsibility virtually impossible.

http://www.tsa-algerie.com/politique/les-services-secrets-conseillent-a-bouteflika-d-engager-en-urgence-des-reformes_14392.html posted:

Algerian secret services have advised President Bouteflika to initiate urgent reforms to contain the social anger, as the contents of a report recently presented to the Head of State and revealed this Sunday, February 20 by the website of the chain Qatari Al Jazeera. This report was prepared at the request of Bouteflika himself to understand the reasons for the riots that marked the country in early January 2011 and the protests that shook several sectors (health, justice, local, etc.)..

It was found that the popular anger is related to the general rise in food prices and the policies pursued by Prime Minister Ahmed Ouyahia. Echoing the president's advisers, the site of Al Jazeera announced that Bouteflika will have to part with his prime minister. "He must appoint another person to be better accepted by the population. Discussions are still at the Presidency to choose this person, "is said.

It is also reported that the head of state will change the ministers who have long remained in the government. As it was announced that Bouteflika will deliver a speech, probably 24 February instant, at the occasion of the anniversary of the nationalization of hydrocarbons. "There will announce landmark decisions in response to popular demands. It is expected that the President confirmed the final lifting of emergency rule, it is stressed. Moreover, according to the same source, President Bouteflika has asked that we respond clearly to the question of its popularity, more than a year after the start of his third term.

In fact, according to our information the government was aware at the end of 2010 a sudden deterioration in the social situation in Algeria. Intelligence Services (DRS) have alerted policymakers to the extent of popular discontent and an impending social explosion, based on field surveys and expert conclusions. The reports were handed over to authorities before the deadly riots against the high cost of living in early January, even before the outbreak of the revolt in Tunisia. These reports cover all aspects, including information management and television.

The government has been receiving detailed reports on the social situation to the brink of explosion, resulting from the accumulation of social problems, widespread corruption, bureaucratic nitpicking of directors and the opacity in the distribution of social housing, captured by the pistons and the client system to the detriment of the real needy.

The security services have even provided policymakers with proposals to end the crisis and proposed social measures to be taken urgently to alleviate the social front. He was asked for example to policy makers at central and local levels to communicate more with citizens, to explain the state efforts to rebuild the country, solving the housing crisis and water. Local radio stations would serve as conduits for these communication operations. The security services have also advocated the opening of the television debate. But locally, some officials, including walis, refused to follow these instructions.

At the same time, the security services were also well prepared to suppress no casualties demonstrations and marches against the government. They took advantage of Tunisian and Egyptian experiences, but also from their own experience in the fight against the movements of crowds, especially during deadly riots in 2001 that had overshadowed the Kabylie.

RoofieMyselfForFun posted:

I will laugh so loving hard if Egypt becomes a more respectable and stable economy in five years, especially providing regular humanitarian needs like heathcare. I would love to see opponents to UHC dispute that

Slantedfloors posted:

Egypt was the IMF's golden boy child, too.

Hilarious.

Spiderfist Island posted:

Really? I'm not up to date with [what was] Egypt's role in the global monetary system, could someone explain?

Spiderfist Island posted:

Really? I'm not up to date with [what was] Egypt's role in the global monetary system, could someone explain?

Xandu posted:

I just got back from living in Beirut (whose culture is relatively distinct from the rest of the Arab world I feel) and have spent some time in Morocco. I do understand what you're saying, but the original comment was


Which is nonsensical and completely unfair, I'd hope you agree. There's nothing intrinsic to Arab culture that makes them unable to accept responsibility and when applied to Arab leaders not accepting responsibility for massacres, they have completely rational reasons for not wanting to do so that have nothing to do with culture. It's like the whole idea that Arabs only know how to deal with force or a "strong horse". It's these sort of dry stereotypes that paint cultures as monolithic and "other" that I was responded to and that's how I interpret Rotacixe's comment. And a lot of expats are just as guilty of viewing locals incorrectly (there's a very weird trend of viewing them as inferior), so I generally take these claims about Arab culture with a grain of salt unless I have reason to believe otherwise.

But your point is fair. You mention sexism and it's a huge problem. Lots of my female friends, especially in Egypt, are constantly harassed and even when women are treated respectfully, they're still treated differently. But of course, there are lots of local Arab groups working to combat that and change perceptions and not every Arab man is sexist.

Honor matters too and I don't have a lot to add to what you said, but it's dangerous to extrapolate that and view people's decisions (especially when it comes to politics or foreign policy) as extensions of that. Take Afghanistan for example, lots of American officers and "experts" point to Pashtunwali to explain how Afghan "tribal" people act and should be "dealt with."

thiswayliesmadness posted:

or we can stop making GBS threads up this thread with your sweeping generalized opinion of millions of people and concentrate on what's actually going on in the middle east.

The-Mole posted:

I know you didn't personally feel like getting into this, but you touched on a subject very close to me. And an important one for Americans, who profoundly misunderstand the culture of the ME and who have crafted a disastrous and counter productive foreign policy out of that ignorance.

Honestly, I'm curious: What is your personal exposure to Arab/Persian culture? Because even (and often especially) among the educated and liberal, family honor is immensely prised. If anyone is reading this as "any middle easterner would kill someone over family honor" then they're an idiot reading words that aren't there, and given how a few people responded, it seems like that's the case.

I've spent 5 years dealing with both Arabs and Persians. While it has been an overall positive experience, it has also been infuriating. Americans profoundly misunderstand Middle Eastern culture (which is itself inaccurate given the diversity of groups represented in the ME, but whatever for the minute). I've yet to meet an American without considerable first hand exposure to ME culture who understood just how overwhelmingly sexist and honor driven ME culture is. Of course this culture isn't 100% universal, but it is dominant, widespread, and deeply rooted. Denying it does no one any good.

There are far more things about the ME that I like than dislike, but over there, when it is bad, it is really loving bad. Also the honor issue is as much of a good thing as it is bad: families are very close and very loyal.

Which belies the real point: the only way to criticize a Middle Easterner is to sandwich it between two compliments.

Frackmire posted:

A lot of people are going to die, but this is history in the making. A whole system of corrupt dictators is imploding on itself and it's a beautiful thing. I think people will remember this along the lines of the collapse of USSR and the independence the Eastern Blocks nations.

Shageletic posted:

EDIT: About Egypt, more power to them. Though I am wondering where they're going to get the money they need to keep it up. Their medical infrastructure is kind of a joke (at least as far as I know), and subsidies had been cut before because the government claimed they didn't have the money to support it.