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sweeptheleg posted:I agree. The news abouts egypts new economy is really cool too. It will be cool to see a society in this age sort of start again from the ground up. Hopefully this is the beginning of huge change allover the middle east. Interesting time to be alive. Actually the most important thing at this time for Egypt is that not too much should change. There's little the economy likes less than uncertainty. The changes should be gradual and considered, otherwise they'll just end up worse than they started.
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Feb 21, 2011 07:07
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That stuff about the Egyptian economy isn't actually set in stone as we're going through a major governmental change this week, but most important of all, these "changes" are only temporary measures to alleviate the current economic problem especially for poor people until elections take place several months down the line. Plus, our hospitals don't have the framework, training or resources to support UHC 24/7.
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Feb 21, 2011 07:22
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Shageletic posted:As a guy born and raised in the Middle East, I have to say you're way off-base. First off all, which Middle Eastern country are you talking about? Egypt, Lebanon, the Gulf states (which have their own huge differences, there's an figurative ocean between life in Oman and the UAE), etc? Second, you just can't classify people by country. Growing up, hanging out with friends that were Jordanian, Palestinian, Egyptian, we'd geek out over Star Wars and make fun of old fogies and how out of touch they were. And then there would be fucks, even in my age, getting off on power trips and pushing down those that weren't like themselves. It depends on the individual. I'm not an expert, nor did I claim to be. I simply have half a decade of fairly constant experience with Middle Easterners of nearly all nationalities. The youth of the ME are why I personally see so much reason to hope for the best in the ME. I am genuinely excited to see what the next 30-40 years bring. A whole boatload of crazy poo poo aside, and as you say, there is a massive shift towards the middle underway among the younger generation(s) (in Turkey, Egypt, and Iran, but in no way whatsoever exclusive to). I understand that everyhing about the ME needs a caveat. It's a large region with over three-hundred-million people, more than a dozen countries, and some of the richest and poorest people on earth. In my posts I'm talking of my collective experience with people from the Middle East. Of course there are individual exceptions to everything, but there are absolutely some generalized characters of the ME that are useful in understanding what is going on. As you say, there are out-of-touch fogies, and TV loving kids to name two groups (which are two of the biggest stereotypes that Middle Easterners themselves have conveyed to me, the others being parents, endearing old-fashioned grandparents and lastly a lot of jokes about engineering degrees). I'll shut up because, as you say, I'm nowhere close to an expert and I am only speaking from my experience and interest in the subject. It's a complicated subject and I stand behind what I said. Understand that it comes from a perspective of loving the ME while also being personally very frustrated by some unfortunately pervasive bits of culture. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 07:29
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Ham posted:That stuff about the Egyptian economy isn't actually set in stone as we're going through a major governmental change this week, but most important of all, these "changes" are only temporary measures to alleviate the current economic problem especially for poor people until elections take place several months down the line.
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Feb 21, 2011 07:32
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I must have missed it, but was there some one event that put all this in motion? Something that happened in Egypt two weeks ago or so that was the straw that broke the camel's back?
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Feb 21, 2011 07:45
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A college graduate that had to sell fruit to feed his family was tired of the govt loving with him so he set himself on fire.
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Feb 21, 2011 07:52
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sweeptheleg posted:A college graduate that had to sell fruit to feed his family was tired of the govt loving with him so he set himself on fire. In Tunisia. And then riots started there, and somehow got enough traction to actually oust the dictator. Then everyone else in the middle east perked up and said "Wait, we can actually do that?" Then Egypt started and everyone else followed on after that.
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Feb 21, 2011 07:56
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Samurai Sanders posted:I must have missed it, but was there some one event that put all this in motion? Something that happened in Egypt two weeks ago or so that was the straw that broke the camel's back? The OP is actually pretty good, albeit out of order. But yeah, there were longstanding problems in all of these countries and the success of Tunisia helped to inspire people in other countries to rise up.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:09
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Benagain posted:Then Egypt started and everyone else followed on after that. And since Egypt is basically looked to as the rest of the Middle East's big brother, it's not likely that the other revolutions are going to stop any time soon.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:10
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Slantedfloors posted:The fact that Mubarak's personal fortune was almost a good third of Egypt's economy should tell you something about why they couldn't afford to improve their infrastructure. You ever get the feeling that we might see the end of capitalism in our lifetimes? Not to derail, but the real seed of this revolutionary spirit is the lack of upward mobility that capitalism provides. Most of the problems that the Middle East is having is not too far removed from what is going on in America: a lot of people are being subjugated by a short-sighted rich elite that wants feudalism back and has no real idea how upward mobility works for them. Egypt's need to recognize food and medical care as this important at the beginning of the process really marks how imperfect and enslaving free-market capitalism is and how badly it affects everybody involved. Earlier in either this thread or the Wisconsin Union Break one, there was a sign where someone in Bahrain held up a sign supporting Wisconsin workers from having their right to bargain with employers threatened. I've only been on this planet for 32 years, but I really get the feeling that something has snapped in all of us and that the Internet has allowed to flourish, something that really needed to be said. As an American I've been taught that capitalism is the best system we have, but right now with the changes that have been going on, I'm cautiously optimistic that things have reached a point where they have to change because it's gone too far already. I know someone is going to come in here with a needle for my balloon, but maybe things have gotten so bad, so rotten, so dire that this is our breaking point to enact change. After all, in the last two years we've gotten some helpful legislation here in America and now brutal dictatorships (funded by us, of course) are being taken down. It has to mean something, but I hope whatever is inspiring all of us to break our shackles keeps up because we need it to. Change seems to be the theme for this new decade, and I hope it works out for the Middle East and, by extension, all of us in the world as well.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:11
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Benagain posted:In Tunisia. And then riots started there, and somehow got enough traction to actually oust the dictator. Then everyone else in the middle east perked up and said "Wait, we can actually do that?"
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Feb 21, 2011 08:20
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Xandu posted:The OP is actually pretty good, albeit out of order.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:21
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Well capitalism is just an economic framework. The problem isn't the economics, it's ethics. People are always going to be greedy, self-serving fuckers; it doesn't matter what system is in place there will always be some way for the greedy ones to benefit whilst some other people lose out.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:22
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sweeptheleg posted:A college graduate that had to sell fruit to feed his family was tired of the govt loving with him so he set himself on fire. He actually wasn't a college graduate, according to his sister. At least according to Wikipedia.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:27
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Samurai Sanders posted:I was just curious why it happened exactly when it did. Did the government announce some new policy that finally pushed people over the edge? In Tunisia? Not exactly. The economic downturn had made unemployment a lot worse and raised the price of food, which was important. There was a rather brutal crackdown in Sidi Bouzid after residents protested after Bouazizi's death, and that prompted protests around the country, and the authorities cracked down on those, and it spun out of control over the course of about a month.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:28
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Brown Moses posted:At least he didn't blame the Jews. Bringing this back, did he blame the Jews and/or Israel? I refuse to believe it was a speech given by someone of importance in the Middle East (outside of Israel/Turkey of course) without them blaming the Jews 
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Feb 21, 2011 08:29
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I think he mentioned Israel (along with the US, Europe, and everybody else) when he was talking about foreign interference and potential invaders, but I can't find a transcript.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:33
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Corny posted:Bringing this back, did he blame the Jews and/or Israel? I refuse to believe it was a speech given by someone of importance in the Middle East (outside of Israel/Turkey of course) without them blaming the Jews Slantedfloors posted:And since Egypt is basically looked to as the rest of the Middle East's big brother, it's not likely that the other revolutions are going to stop any time soon. Corny posted:Bringing this back, did he blame the Jews and/or Israel? I refuse to believe it was a speech given by someone of importance in the Middle East (outside of Israel/Turkey of course) without them blaming the Jews THE AWESOME GHOST fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 08:40
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:The real question is how will these governmental and economic changes going to effect the population of the planet. You may have heard, food isn't exactly plentiful for a large portion of the planet. It's a very precocious situation we have here. The reason the population is at the level it's at is because the resources can support it; and no more. If there is a sudden change in the distribution in resources (oil for example), the balance we have will, I fear, take a turn for the worse. What's going to happen to the planet when we run out of oil? It's like a banana in a fridge with a family of flies. As long as they have the banana resource, they will breed and flourish. But what happens when the banana is gone? That population collapses to a sustainable level. We humans are no different than bacteria growing in a petri dish. Or flies in a fridge. 
Sivias fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 08:44
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Something I've noticed is that this entire thing has a relatively low 'death to the Jews' quotient, which both reassures the part of me with distant relatives out there, and puts a finger in the eye of the people who say we have to back up their scummy dictators because otherwise they'll kill Israel.
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Feb 21, 2011 08:53
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Bashir not running. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12521427 Not sure how related it is as I don't think we have heard too much about any current Sudan unrest itt. Just wanted to make a meager contribution.
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Feb 21, 2011 09:37
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^^^ ah, drat you. Well, here's this longer post anyway: BBC says that according to a member of Sudan's ruling party, President Omar al-Bashir will not seek to be re-elected in the next elections. The next elections won't be until 2015, though, so he's still got time to screw his country good before handing power to his henchmen. Of course, the following had to be added just to avoid confusion: quote:"But he is not under pressure... This is not in the context of the change that is happening in the Arab world. It is happening because of the political strategy of the NCP to broaden participation," he added.
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Feb 21, 2011 09:41
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Live blogs for today: Guardian AJE
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Feb 21, 2011 09:42
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It's semi-independent of the Arab world. The secession of South Sudan has put a lot of pressure on Bashir. But 2015 is a long way away, who knows what he'll actually end up doing. Saleh (Yemen) said the same thing a week or two ago, but nobody believes him.
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Feb 21, 2011 09:42
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Yeah, saying "I'll step down in X months/years" hasn't exactly worked too well in other countries so far.
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Feb 21, 2011 09:44
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sweeptheleg posted:A college graduate that had to sell fruit to feed his family was tired of the govt loving with him so he set himself on fire. He wasn't a college graduate, he was just a poor dude who got humiliated/bitchslapped by a female cop who confiscated his fruit and scales, went to the governor's office to complain, was told to gently caress off, and set himself on fire. And that is how a revolution starts. edit: gently caress beaten, shoulda read the rest of the thread
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Feb 21, 2011 09:50
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JesusSinfulHands posted:edit: gently caress beaten, shoulda read the rest of the thread No worries. You gave me a chance to post a link to the 60 Minutes report on it that aired tonight. 
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Feb 21, 2011 09:56
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i could swear there was something about him being college educated but the conditions made it impossible to find work. fake edit** heres an article saying he was a university graduate http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/28/tunisia-ben-ali
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Feb 21, 2011 09:56
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Nessus posted:Something I've noticed is that this entire thing has a relatively low 'death to the Jews' quotient, which both reassures the part of me with distant relatives out there, and puts a finger in the eye of the people who say we have to back up their scummy dictators because otherwise they'll kill Israel. You must have missed Mr Khameneis comments... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4029079,00.html quote:During a meeting with Turkish President Abdullah Gul in Tehran, Khamenei said political changes in Ankara – particularly its "separation from the Zionist regime" – have brought Turkey closer to the Muslim world. Because creating further divide between people in the area is a great way to promote harmony.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:01
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For The World posted:You must have missed Mr Khameneis comments... "Death to Israel/Zionist regime etc" by a non-Reformist politician in the Islamic Republic is basically the equivalent of tossing "liberty/Founding Fathers/hope and change" into a speech in the US. I've read speeches by Ahmadinejad on road construction in rural Khuzestan and he'll toss in an Israel crack. It's standard practice. In this case, the interesting thing is Abdullah Gul's response. quote:Turkish President Abdullah Gül told Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei during his maiden trip to the Islamic republic last week to “heed the views of the people” and that “people’s power forms the foundation of legitimacy.”
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Feb 21, 2011 10:13
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Abdullah Gul was pretty supportative of the democratic movements from the beginning, especially when compared to EU and US leaders. There was some talk of Turkey helping Egypt with the process of democratisation, not sure if that's actually happening though. In other news, Tunisia wants their old leader extradited so they can ask him where he got those safes full of money and jewelery from: quote:Tunisia, which set off the wave of protests that are sweeping the Arab world when they forced the country's president Ben Ali to flee, have called for his extradition so the 74-year-old, who faces allegations of involvement in "serious crimes", can face charges.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:18
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Oh now I didn't see that. I don't hear of many people giving "advice" to Khamenei. Interesting times indeed.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:18
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Frackmire posted:A lot of people are going to die, but this is history in the making. A whole system of corrupt dictators is imploding on itself and it's a beautiful thing. I think people will remember this along the lines of the collapse of USSR and the independence the Eastern Blocks nations. Hopefully, unlike the Eastern Bloc Nations, they won't be replaced with equally corrupt "democracies"
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Feb 21, 2011 10:22
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Interim Egyptian cabinet has leaked, to be announced within 24 hours. Some look good, lots of bad, the full link has more comments.http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-interim-cabinet.html posted:
A lot of big ministry positions (Foreign affairs, interior, finance) are apparently not being changed. Reuters has also reported an imminent cabinet shuffle, though they didn't give any names, so this seems plausible. edit: The P.S. seemed to go without saying if this cabinet formation is true. Xandu fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 10:22
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You forgot the P.S:quote:P.S There is a strong word in the street that Egyptians will return back to Al Tahrir square next Tuesday to down Ahmed Shafik. Ham, what do you think of this cabinet?
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Feb 21, 2011 10:29
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I don't see much of a problem with those positions. Just because they were involved with Mubarak's rule doesn't make them evil. Most even seemed opposed to Mubarak or a sympathiser of opposition groups, according to that list. You've even got a Christian tourism minister so I can't see any religious bias.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:32
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It's the ministers that aren't named, along with the PM, that are the problem.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:34
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It's a leak, so how is it a problem when you don't know the official release.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:38
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BBC has a Live Blog up now. Guardian AJE
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Feb 21, 2011 10:42
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Well obviously, I'm assuming it's real, which I don't think is an unreasonable assumption to base a discussion on. If it is real, not switching up the really important ministries (I mean come on, ministries of culture and tourism?) is a bad sign. And I just realized the original source was al-Ahram, not the blog, and Ahram is the state daily.
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Feb 21, 2011 10:45
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