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randombattle posted:The most hosed up thing is that this is even an issue. You have a government carpet bombing its own city and shoot anyone they see but that still doesnt matter in the international community. Well it's partially hidden from public view because reporters are not allowed in. The major media typically shies away from "unconfirmed" internal sources because getting something major wrong (like that thing about the israel fighters) could cause a major shitstorm for them. That said... that's about the only excuse I can come up with. This is seriously a messed up situation and deserves a lot more attention than it is getting.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:44
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Oh, man, this guy on Al Jazeera. Imprisoned by the Libyan government for 18 years (4 years in solitary), and seems almost embarrassed to talk about it because what the government is doing to people now makes his suffering seem minor by comparison. Poor guy.  To suffer 18 years in jail, then to look and see what the government is doing now and think "this is much worse than what I went through" is amazing.Also, "Qaddaffi and his family are not humans. They are devils." I like this guy.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:45
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:Are you honestly considering the possibility of that happening? What's wrong with you? It's really scary, isn't it? People take "Did you hear that Hitler escaped to Brazil! Reportedly a Mexican battleship sunk a Royal Navy ship guarding the Kiel harbor to enable him and Goebbels to escape on an invisible paddle boat."
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Feb 21, 2011 20:46
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You know, it just dawned on me, but we don't know what's exactly happening in Tripoli right now. There's next to none information coming out of the country right now. We know nothing about the situation in Tripoli, except that the air force are pulling an Operation Rolling Thunder on anybody alive in there, while mercenaries kill any survivors. But from all we know, the army could be fighting alongside the protesters, or they could be helping the mercenaries. The protesters could be fighting back, or getting completely wasted by the mercenaries. We just don't know. All we can do is speculate.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:47
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Guy on AJE in Tripoli is describing the roving mercenaries, planes, and seeing what sounds like tracer rounds being fired off into the air in the distance.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:47
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@Ace Oliveira We can say for sure they aren't planting gardens and walking down the street and in hand. There is some horrible stuff happening over there right now.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:52
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Sounds like the protesters need to get some of the military working on their side. Perhaps there are more air force units in Libya that don't approve of this, and are willing to actually fight back? One can only hope. If two colonels defected on the spot, maybe some others can organize a counter-attack.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:54
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http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ Al Jezeera English live feed. You want info, its here. Apparently the Libyan flag switch done at the London embassy was done by protesters, not the embassy staff. Libyan Ambassador in London has not resigned, and has not spoken against the regime.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:54
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Sivias posted:@Ace Oliveira Please don't do this, use the quote button. It's a thread, not a chat between two posters.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:54
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Ace Oliveira posted:But from all we know, the army could be fighting alongside the protesters, or they could be helping the mercenaries. The protesters could be fighting back, or getting completely wasted by the mercenaries. We just don't know. All we can do is speculate. There's definitely some elements of the army that have already joined up with the protesters. Even ignoring the reports of tanks being used to overrun police and mercenary positions (at the Benghazi airport, I think), there were Youtube videos of dead mercenaries with soldiers among the crowd explaining what was happening.
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Feb 21, 2011 20:56
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Globo-Corp posted:Sounds like the protesters need to get some of the military working on their side. Perhaps there are more air force units in Libya that don't approve of this, and are willing to actually fight back? One can only hope. If two colonels defected on the spot, maybe some others can organize a counter-attack. There were videos circulating earlier that were allegedly soldiers who'd refused to fire on civilians. Whoever they were they'd been tied up and burnt alive.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:00
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-protests-malta-idUSTRE71K52R20110221quote:Two Libyan Air Force fighter pilots defected on Monday and flew their jets to Malta where they told authorities they had been ordered to bomb protesters, Maltese government officials said. This is the beginning of the end for Gaddafi. There is no way to come back from trying to have your air force bomb your own cities to quiet dissent. He going to have to leave soon or be hung by a mob.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:02
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Speaking of bombingquote:Ominous news from our colleagues over at BBC Monitoring: "'Libyan military source confirms orders were issued for the aerial bombardment of Benghazi within two hours,'" reported Al-Arabiya TV in an urgent screen caption at 1947 GMT."
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Feb 21, 2011 21:02
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My friend's latest update is:quote:Ugent!! Ppl in tripoli and tajoura stay away from open areas stay away keep behind Walls!! And cars even if there IS no body in your area. If you here gunshots try to cover 2 bullets just missed us and it came from scay there is shooting but like 10 mins from here. I don’t have Arabic please some one write it in Arabic. Inna lilah wa inna ilayhi rajeoon. They r killin everyone!! Not heard anything more in 2 hours (I'm refreshing like mad). They were out celebrating last night - it looked like it was all over. Now it's just a bloodbath. schadenfraud fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 21:05
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Ace Oliveira posted:You know, it just dawned on me, but we don't know what's exactly happening in Tripoli right now. There's next to none information coming out of the country right now. We know nothing about the situation in Tripoli, except that the air force are pulling an Operation Rolling Thunder on anybody alive in there, while mercenaries kill any survivors. But from all we know, the army could be fighting alongside the protesters, or they could be helping the mercenaries. The protesters could be fighting back, or getting completely wasted by the mercenaries. We just don't know. All we can do is speculate. Im pretty sure that bombing the city is not the airforce fighting along side protesters. From the reporys by the defected fighter pilots its pretty much clear that they are just bombing any large civilian group they see. There isnt any other way to see the situation.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:05
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randombattle posted:Im pretty sure that bombing the city is not the airforce fighting along side protesters. I...didn't say that?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:08
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Globo-Corp posted:Sounds like the protesters need to get some of the military working on their side. We don't know that this isn't already happening, really. Maybe some army units have joined the rebellion and the air force is bombing them? All information coming from Libya is so sketchy that Picasso's Guernica looks like a realistic depiction of the event in comparison. Anything that the government officials say is doubtful, anything that the protesters say is doubtful. Eg. there is much talk about 'mercenaries' and everyone seems to take it as an accepted fact, but there is no proof of this, just claims. Just like there have been repeated claims for a few days now that Gaddafi has left the country for good. Russians also claimed there were Latvian female mercenaries sniping at their troops in Afghanistan/Chechnya/Georgia. I'm not saying that any of this isn't possible, but the information is too sketchy and too biased to really know what is going on.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:09
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Ace Oliveira posted:I...didn't say that? Nah im just saying there isnt much to speculate in this.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:12
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Slantedfloors posted:There's definitely some elements of the army that have already joined up with the protesters. poo poo, I wonder if they're arming the protesters then. Al-Jazeera was talking about more mercenaries arriving in air planes in the Tripoli airport, I think. Maybe they were taking casualties and had to bring in reinforcements?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:18
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For anyone who didn't see the YouTube video I posted earlier, it's been put on Facebook apparently. WARNING: hosed UP poo poohttp://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=203209353028633&oid=197898230226131&comments&ref=mf gently caress this. gently caress all of it.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:18
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Nuclear Spoon posted:For anyone who didn't see the YouTube video I posted earlier, it's been put on Facebook apparently. I'm not going to watch unnecessary dismembered arms, legs, or brains. Is there any relevant content? ie. helicopter shown firing or something to give more solid evidence of the events as they happen instead of just. 'Dead People!!' The lack of reporters there is annoying.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:26
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Berlusconi has decided to go from backing Libya to saying the EU needs to intervene - although exactly what he means by intervention though, is probably not Military. From the BBC live ticker.quote:2014: Beleaguered Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has weighed in with his thoughts on events in Libya, calling attacks on protesters "unacceptable". The EU should step in to prevent the situation from escalating into a civil war, he adds.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:27
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Al Jazeera announces it is allowing any networks to broadcast its material due to the deliberate scrambling of its signals by Libya. During jamming, Al Jazeera English can be watched on Hotbird 13E Frequency: 11034 Vertical FEC: 3/4 Symbol rate: 27500; on Badr4/Eurobird 2 (26East) Frequency : 11680.8 Horizontal; SR: 27.5: FEC: 3/4; and on Nilesat/ Atlantic Bird4A (7West) Frequency: 11393 Vertical; SR:27.5; FEC :3/4 Al Jazeera Arabic can be watched on Nilesat 7W Frequency: 11555 Vertical FEC: 3/4 Symbol rate: 27500 http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/17/live-blog-libya
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Feb 21, 2011 21:27
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SoroScrew
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e: wait no way to know if that's actually libya
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Feb 21, 2011 21:27
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Nuclear Spoon posted:For anyone who didn't see the YouTube video I posted earlier, it's been put on Facebook apparently. I kind of wish I hadn't seen that. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:29
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SauceNinja posted:I'm not going to watch unnecessary dismembered arms, legs, or brains. Is there any relevant content? ie. helicopter shown firing or something to give more solid evidence of the events as they happen instead of just. 'Dead People!!' The lack of reporters there is annoying. I'd say bodies are pretty loving relevant to the assertion that there's a mass murder going on, especially with the types of damage inflicted upon them.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:30
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Nuclear Spoon posted:For anyone who didn't see the YouTube video I posted earlier, it's been put on Facebook apparently. gently caress them. I hope they all burn for what they have done. This is...I don't even have a word for how loving barbaric it is. Nothing I can say or express can properly convey how much rage I feel that someone/anyone can do that to another person.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:30
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ukle posted:Berlusconi has decided to go from backing Libya to saying the EU needs to intervene "Angela: you with-a me? Over de top! Italia and Deutschland, TOGETHER AGAIN!"
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Feb 21, 2011 21:33
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Well this thread is moving fast, so sorry if this is a repost. https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=164752430243044 This video seems to confirm that Gaddafi executed troops that refused his orders.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:35
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:I'd say bodies are pretty loving relevant to the assertion that there's a mass murder going on, especially with the types of damage inflicted upon them. They're definitely part of the equation. Unfortunately people die all the time without being killed by the Libyan armed forces. I'm not saying they're innocent, but I'm not going to assume every picture of a severed foot, exploded head, or bloody brownish person is in Libya and shot by their government. For me, a picture of them attempting to shoot people is more damning than a person who has been shot.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:35
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I've only been glancing at this thread and the news from time to time, but I can't understand why these governments aren't saying "but....but Israel!" to try and regain order. Isn't that what they normally do when faced with hard domestic problems? Would it not work somehow, or do they have some other plan?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:35
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Probably because nobody would believe them except reactionist Americans 
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Feb 21, 2011 21:37
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Here's the big question: if there is (and likely will be) an intervention into Libya that unseats Gadaffi, what message does that send to Bahrain, Yemen, and other nations? Because everything Gadaffi is doing is being done on a smaller scale in those places. Bahrain might not be using anti-aircraft guns on people, but besieging hospitals and beating protesters unrecognizable comes close.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:39
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Samurai Sanders posted:I've only been glancing at this thread and the news from time to time, but I can't understand why these governments aren't saying "but....but Israel!" to try and regain order. Isn't that what they normally do when faced with hard domestic problems? Would it not work somehow, or do they have some other plan? I get the feeling there is no plan, only horror and blood. Dictators are used to putting down uprisings, but not of this scale. Right now it's just a bloody civil war that will only end with Ghaddafi dead.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:39
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Samurai Sanders posted:I've only been glancing at this thread and the news from time to time, but I can't understand why these governments aren't saying "but....but Israel!" to try and regain order. Isn't that what they normally do when faced with hard domestic problems? Would it not work somehow, or do they have some other plan? That stuff doesn't work, because people aren't stupid. They might not like Israel for other reasons, but they're not going to fall for bad propaganda from the power structure they're trying to destroy.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:40
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Young Freud posted:Here's the big question: if there is (and likely will be) an intervention into Libya that unseats Gadaffi, what message does that send to Bahrain, Yemen, and other nations? Because everything Gadaffi is doing is being done on a smaller scale in those places. I don't think Bahrain is above using the Libyan tactics of using military weaponry and mercenaries to slaughter protesters if they ever got any bigger, or actually threatened the monarchy.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:41
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:I get the feeling there is no plan, only horror and blood. Dictators are used to putting down uprisings, but not of this scale. Right now it's just a bloody civil war that will only end with Ghaddafi dead. Worldwide, there are more of Us than there are of Them. The fact that people everywhere are realizing (in many senses of the word) this is very encouraging. I haven't had this much general optimism in years.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:42
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Nonsense posted:That stuff doesn't work, because people aren't stupid. They might not like Israel for other reasons, but they're not going to fall for bad propaganda from the power structure they're trying to destroy.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:42
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Too loving right Qatari prime minister. Bout time the EU and NATO (or the Arab League or anyone else for that matter) stepped up to the plate and actually intervened in a genocide for once rather than sitting back tutting and then saying 'never again' once it's all over. I'm not calling for boots on the ground or anything like that but gently caress, you've got Italy, France and Spain (off the top of my head) all within striking distance, all with modern air forces. Surely a no-fly zone wouldn't be too controversial an idea.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:43
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schadenfraud posted:My friend's latest update is: I fear very strongly for your friend. It does not look good. He is in the middle of nothing short of a massacre by a government of its own people. They don't care about who they kill - they are killing everyone, punishing all the citizens for daring to speak out against a criminal regime. I literally won't hold it against the Libyan people if they shoot back and kill soldiers who are trying to kill them.
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