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Samurai Sanders posted:I didn't even know that you could point anti-aircraft guns at targets on the ground. Or can the protesters fly?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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Lasagna posted:I wish my country (Italy) would finally show some balls, and after asking consent of NATO and EU, step up and send a fat task force to kick those mercs in the balls and hang them high. Shouldn't your country be busy ridding yourself of your own corrupt leader?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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Slantedfloors posted:Pretty much. Well, we don't need to pull a full all out war against the Libyan military to help the protesters. We could do it diplomatically, or economically. We could help them. We don't need to invade the country to do it.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:14
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Samurai Sanders posted:I didn't even know that you could point anti-aircraft guns at targets on the ground. Or can the protesters fly? Sure you can. The Germans did it towards the end of WWII. Edit: Beaten like the Third Reich.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:15
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Samurai Sanders posted:I didn't even know that you could point anti-aircraft guns at targets on the ground. Or can the protesters fly? Look at the video earlier itt. Or rather don't. 12,7mm on person will rip you to pieces. sometimes I can't believe how humans can be so horrible to another.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:17
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Samurai Sanders posted:I didn't even know that you could point anti-aircraft guns at targets on the ground. Or can the protesters fly? The Germans put one on their loving tanks in WWII  edit: beaten like the americans to space
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Feb 21, 2011 22:17
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Slantedfloors posted:Pretty much. Not endorsing or opposing this view, just pointing out that "the people get the government they deserve" and "democracy has to be earned" were republican talking points, prior to Bush's presidency. Hell, Bush himself used them during his 2000 campaign.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:17
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Boner Slam posted:Look at the video earlier itt. Or rather don't. And I don't think I will be watching that video. edit: Oh, are they not shells that are meant to explode at a certain range? that was the image of an anti-aircraft gun I had in my head. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:17
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Samurai Sanders posted:I didn't even know that you could point anti-aircraft guns at targets on the ground. Or can the protesters fly? The Russians used Shilkas extensively against ground targets in the Caucuses. They're absolutely devastating. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4 edit: That guy in pieces in the earlier video probably caught an round from a ZU or a Hind's Autocannon. BIG HORNY COW fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:18
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Namarrgon posted:Yeah man I'm sure the family of the future thousands killed will rest happily knowing that a possible foreign intervention could have gotten the same results without their husband/wife/child brutally murdered ending in more or less the same conclusion. You are simple-minded. If the United States goes in and removes Gadaffi and sets up a puppet government - which they would - how do you think that would be percieved in the Middle East? Don't you think the next tinpot dictator would say that protests are all being engineered by the West and people would actually begin to listen? These revolutions have to be by the people for them to be legitimate.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:18
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Oh god drat. I peeked at that video posted earlier and then read the subsequent comments and now I feel a bit dizzy. These people are being turned to actual human mush. gently caress, it's a real-life Bloody Mess.  Seriously, is there anything going to be done to stop this last-ditch genocidal "gently caress you" by Qaddafi to the Libyan people? Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:19
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Priapist posted:This would explain the injuries shown in the video posted earlier. It's likely the video and the rumor have the same source - and the claim seems credible, but remains unconfirmed.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:19
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Ace Oliveira posted:Well, we don't need to pull a full all out war against the Libyan military to help the protesters. We could do it diplomatically, or economically. We could help them. We don't need to invade the country to do it. You are right and wrong at the same time. We wouldn't have to have a full war/invasion to help them. But diplomacy, and economics are not options. Gaddafi knows that he is on the way out, and he is dead set on leaving a pile of bodies as revenge.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:20
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Lot going on today. Here's a fierce clip of protesters in Tangier, Morocco taking on police vehicles with rocks... http://www.frequency.com/video/tangier-morocco-riots-pt-3/2795069
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Feb 21, 2011 22:21
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roundmidnight posted:If the United States goes in and removes Gadaffi and sets up a puppet government - which they would[CITATION NEEDED] - how do you think that would be percieved in the Middle East?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:21
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roundmidnight posted:You are simple-minded. If the United States goes in and removes Gadaffi and sets up a puppet government - which they would - how do you think that would be percieved in the Middle East? It's the 'sets up a government' that puts your hypothesis beyond my scenario. And again, do you honestly think the nations of the world would say "no, this doesn't count, put Gadaffi's son in charge and try again". What does 'legitimate' even mean in this context? e. don't worry, I know I'm a hopeless idealist 
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Feb 21, 2011 22:22
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Uglycat posted:It's likely the video and the rumor have the same source - and the claim seems credible, but remains unconfirmed. I won't be surprised if they were using incendiary weapons too. Like napalm and white phosphorus.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:22
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Priapist posted:This would explain the injuries shown in the video posted earlier. The same man just said militia entered the hospitals and shot wounded and doctors, accusing them of aiding traitors. I feel ill just thinking about it all. Nessus posted:You sure can, buddy! Look up the German 88 mm. Hilariously, it was used to this end in this very area!
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Feb 21, 2011 22:22
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Not putting a stop to this will leave a country in ruins where more or less everyone is either dead or has a bad case of PTSD. That is not a foundation to build a new and working government on. If that monster is allowed to continue this genocide until he fails, I think Libya will no longer be a working state, regardless of how the next leadership is chosen.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:23
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Sivias posted:What if Israel offered some sort of large humanitarian aid assistance? That would be seen as a sign of good faith and a step towards unity? I think the best thing they can do is sit this out
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Feb 21, 2011 22:23
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Cjones posted:Guy on AJE just said they're using anti-aircraft weapons on protesters ... Jesus Christ.  That's just.... ... Jesus.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:24
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Samurai Sanders posted:Holy hell. I can't imagine pointing that at a person and pulling the trigger. What range is the shell meant to explode at anyway? Depends. 12,7mm are huge machine guns, while those anti-air tanks posted earlier have downright shells that also explode, however they shoot as fast as a machine gun. If you want to use one system that causes the most devastation when fired in a crowd, this is it. Here is a picture of an older German AA tank like that: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Gepard_1a2_v0-mess.jpg
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Feb 21, 2011 22:25
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Uglycat posted:Not endorsing or opposing this view, just pointing out that "the people get the government they deserve" and "democracy has to be earned" were republican talking points, prior to Bush's presidency. Hell, Bush himself used them during his 2000 campaign. Any new democracies have to come from the people and be considered an entirely Tunisian/Egyptian/Libyan affair, because they're ultimately the ones who will have to defend it. If, god forbid, some new jackass tries to seize power in one of these countries, the revolution needs to be remembered as a time when the people rose as one and got rid of him by themselves - as a focal point that can be used any time their rights are threatened. Foreign military aid is just going to fog over the whole issue and make it easier for the lessons learned to be forgotten or ignored. In fact, Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much the exact conundrum I'm wary of. Outside military intervention overthrowing their oppressive dictators resulted in the new government being seen as either corrupt, identical to the last, or spineless puppets. The Iraqi and Afghani democracies are probably not going to last in their present form because the Iraqi and Afghani people have no personal stake in them.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:25
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Namarrgon posted:It's the 'sets up a government' that puts your hypothesis beyond my scenario. It means that it has to be an actual revolution, not a foreign coup. And when has the U.S. government NOT set up a puppet government when it has invaded?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:25
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korranus posted:I think the best thing they can do is sit this out That's pretty much what we intend to do with this and most every other country around us. They don't really want our help right now - either side.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:26
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Sivias posted:What if Israel offered some sort of large humanitarian aid assistance? That would be seen as a sign of good faith and a step towards unity? Israel actually did that in regards to Albania and Bosnia. They even went out of their way to make sure that the UN didn't accidentally drop pork during food drops. Israel's benevolent actions didn't help their image in the rest of the Muslim world, but Albanians love Israel now..
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Feb 21, 2011 22:26
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Agreed, this is exactly what an emergency no fly zone is for, once you have bombers landing out of the country with orders to bomb there own people (an order that you know is against every treaty ever) This is the kind of poo poo that caused Europe to make post facto laws after WWII, educated Pilots should know better then anyone else. Following orders is not a defense for Officers.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:26
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Mr Plow posted:Unconfirmed reports: Jesus loving Christ that is so gruesome. Nuclear Spoon posted:
Video already removed, so if you could summarize what you saw please? What country, what the content of the video was, please? I am currently 1,837 tweets behind on following my own list  I'm so glad I shared it with y'all so you could help me digest & disseminate the news contained in those tweets. You guys rock  Edit: Found the video on Facebook, man in chunks 
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Feb 21, 2011 22:27
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WARNING: REALLY loving GROSS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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THE HORSES rear end posted:Israel actually did that in regards to Albania and Bosnia. They even went out of their way to make sure that the UN didn't accidentally drop pork during food drops. Israel's benevolent actions didn't help their image in the rest of the Muslim world, but Albanians love Israel now.. We also sent aid to Iran during the earthquake. Still in danger of being nuked.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:27
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Doccers posted:... Jesus Christ. After seeing the soldiers burning bodies video on Facebook, I'm pretty much never clicking on any link to a video every again. I liked it more back when "Not Mind Safe" meant "something slightly disturbing, probably involving butts, is happening behind these words" instead of "human decency is a fragile and disposible construct, and I can prove it." Content, random question, and sorry if this has been explained already: Who decided on this spelling of Gadhafi's name? I read in one of the Straight Dope books that there's somewhere like 200 permutations of Anglicizing his full name, and it always used to be Khaddafi when I was younger.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:28
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Apology posted:Video already removed, so if you could summarize what you saw please? What country, what the content of the video was, please? Libyans reduced to piles of mush with faces by AA rounds I have a strong stomach for that kinda poo poo, but I don't ever want to see that video again
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Feb 21, 2011 22:28
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The Libyan ambassador to the U.S. literally just called for the rest of the world to stop the massacre on AJE.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:28
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roundmidnight posted:And when has the U.S. government NOT set up a puppet government when it has invaded? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction This statement does not prove your conclusion.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:29
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Uglycat posted:(emphasis mine) No, yeah. They'd definitely let the Libyans et al decide their own course for government and foreign/market policy after large-scale intervention. It would be the perfect opportunity to install leaders who wouldn't change the status quo and keep things the way America wants them, but democracy is democracy and that just wouldn't be right!!!!! No.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:30
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Apology posted:Video already removed, so if you could summarize what you saw please? What country, what the content of the video was, please?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:30
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From the Guardian This could be a particularly ominous development however. Libyan airspace has been closed, the Austrian Army is saying. One of its transport planes, with some 60 European Union citizens onboard, is believed to be stranded in Tripoli at the moment. "The entire airspace is currently blocked," an Austrian Defence Ministry employee told the German Press Agency dpa.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:30
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Uglycat posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction Logic and realpolitik don't often match up.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:31
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roundmidnight posted:It means that it has to be an actual revolution, not a foreign coup. But it doesn't matter who physically gets rid of Gadaffi. Again I was serious with my question; what does 'actual' or 'real' revolution mean? I'm dead serious; do you think other nations would disregard a new democratic Libyan nation because Gadaffi was captured by foreign troops? I also didn't mean the US specifically by the way, I just thought it would shorter than to say "any stable military powerful foreign power" and kinda assumed that was obvious. I'd rather it be UN peacekeeping troops or whatever.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:31
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EskimoFreeState posted:After seeing the soldiers burning bodies video on Facebook, I'm pretty much never clicking on any link to a video every again. If I'm correct (and I might not be), but a lot of arabic pronunciations are strictly phonetical interpretations since the alphabets don't exactly transcribe to each other. Thus lots of arabic words have alternate spellings in other languages. Al Queda Al Queda/Al Qaeda...Osama/Usama.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:31
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Syphilicious! posted:No, yeah. They'd definitely let the Libyans et al decide their own course for government and foreign/market policy after large-scale intervention. It would be the perfect opportunity to install leaders who wouldn't change the status quo and keep things the way America wants them, but democracy is democracy and that just wouldn't be right!!!!! I didn't say by necessity they would. I pointed out that your assertion - that you have certain knowledge they would not - is unsupported. And it remains so. roundmidnight posted:Logic and realpolitik don't often match up. Now seems like a good time to push for it.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:31
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