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Apology posted:Jesus loving Christ that is so gruesome. I was only able to stomach a few seconds of it, but it was basically a hospital with human beings resembling hamburger meat. No report about it, no specifics, just video. It's assumed it's video taken from Libya.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:33
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Namarrgon posted:But it doesn't matter who physically gets rid of Gadaffi. Again I was serious with my question; what does 'actual' or 'real' revolution mean? I'm dead serious; do you think other nations would disregard a new democratic Libyan nation because Gadaffi was captured by foreign troops? And at the most basic; maybe just stopping the carnage? Stop the actual physical violence and then let the rest sort itself out? I'm sure those people in towns outside of Tripoli with mercenaries literally slaughtering anyone in the street would be appalled to except foreign help.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:34
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Namarrgon posted:But it doesn't matter who physically gets rid of Gadaffi. Again I was serious with my question; what does 'actual' or 'real' revolution mean? I'm dead serious; do you think other nations would disregard a new democratic Libyan nation because Gadaffi was captured by foreign troops? YES IT DOES WHY AREN'T YOU UNDERSTANDING ME. It DOES matter who gets rid of him. If the United States/West swoop in and remove him from power, the entire movement becomes illegitimate and emasculated. EVERY OTHER Arab dictator - who have already been using the "foreign plot" trope in every desperate speech to the people up to this point - will be thrilled to see it actually coming true and it will rally the anti-American sentiment that already exists and extinguish any will these people have to remove them. Other dictators will point and say "look! The Americans just want to remove me so they can continue their colonial push across the world! Support me and be patriotic!" It's also incredibly condescending. As Egypt has proved, these people do not need Big Brother America World Police to come and solve all the dumb browns' problems. Let these people empower themselves. This is a critical moment and it the West interferes it's just over, plain and simple. roundmidnight fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:35
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I wonder if more Muslims (or Muslim media) will direct their anger at Russia and China in the aftermath of this. Muslim anger at the United States and Israel is justified, but completely out of proportion when compared to the oppressive policies and foreign meddling of Russia and China.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:35
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Boner Slam posted:Depends. 12,7mm are huge machine guns, while those anti-air tanks posted earlier have downright shells that also explode, however they shoot as fast as a machine gun. I think the Libyans have a bunch of the ZSU-23's, four 23mm rapid-fire AA cannons in an enclosed turret. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4 Using this in a crowd is basically saying you want to murder every man woman and child in that crowd. [fakeedit] oh christ they may also have 9K22 Tunguska's with 30mm gatling guns. (think the gun on an A-10). Yeah Gadhafi/his son/whoever's in charge basically just wants to kill everyone at this point.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:36
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Brown Moses posted:From the Guardian Someone's going to have to go get those people.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:36
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Brown Moses posted:From the Guardian
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Feb 21, 2011 22:37
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Gleaned from AJE twitters: Apparently Gaddafi's right hand man is on Al Jazeera Arabic RIGHT NOW trashing Gaddafi. 
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Feb 21, 2011 22:37
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Uglycat posted:I didn't say by necessity they would. I pointed out that your assertion - that you have certain knowledge they would not - is unsupported. And it remains so. If you want to be deliberately dense, go ahead. History supports my assertion.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:37
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Just so others are clear since it appears that a few people have gotten them confused; 12.7 (12,7) mm is just .50 BMG, the same round we use in all our vehicle mounted and fixed position machine-guns. Anti-aircraft on the other hand is smaller artillery that explodes at a set barometer reading (altitude detonation) or by impact. Unlike normal artillery though, AA shells don't kill you through the explosion itself, but by the massive amounts of shrapnel they pepper their surroundings with. That is why they're so devastating against aircraft.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:38
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Assuming the rumors of Gaddafi fleeing to Venezuela are true, what are the chances of Chavez doing the right thing and handing him to Den Haag for trial?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:38
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Intel5 posted:You are right and wrong at the same time. We wouldn't have to have a full war/invasion to help them. But diplomacy, and economics are not options. Gaddafi knows that he is on the way out, and he is dead set on leaving a pile of bodies as revenge. Well, we could intervene militarily, but it would have to be small scale, and we would have to be extremely careful about it. We can't just invade the place.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:39
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Uglycat posted:I didn't say by necessity they would. I pointed out that your assertion - that you have certain knowledge they would not - is unsupported. And it remains so. The "logic" is simple business interest. Libya's got mad bubblin' crude and Egypt's thing is the Suez Canal. Both are very, very important to us. If we were able to, why the hell wouldn't we? What about past precedent set by the CIA or the nation government makes you think it is at all likely that the United States would give these people self-determination?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:39
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roundmidnight posted:YES IT DOES WHY AREN'T YOU UNDERSTANDING ME. I do understand you, but I disagree. People 'empowering' themselves is not worth the slaughter of thousands. We're all humans for fucks sake. Again pointing at the unrealistic optimistic idealism 
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Feb 21, 2011 22:39
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Samurai Sanders posted:I didn't even know that you could point anti-aircraft guns at targets on the ground. Or can the protesters fly? AA guns are always dual purpose. Other posters have mentioned the use of heavy (German 88mm and 128mm) flak guns against tanks in WW2, but heavy AA is not used any more as missiles have replaced them. Rapid firing small calibre AA guns however are still very popular, and they are also very effective anti-infantry weapons due to their high rates of fire, especially as mounted versions such as the Soviet ZSU-23/4 Shilka (four barrels of 23mm caliber). With just one second burst, it can fire When used against demonstrators in a street, it's the same as putting people through a meatgrinder, and I don't understand how anyone would be able to pull the trigger against their own people?!? But I also don't understand how anyone can suicide bomb schools and poo poo, and it still happens. 
Nenonen fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:40
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The King of Swag posted:Just so others are clear since it appears that a few people have gotten them confused; 12.7 (12,7) mm is just .50 BMG, the same round we use in all our vehicle mounted and fixed position machine-guns. Anti-aircraft on the other hand is smaller artillery that explodes at a set barometer reading (altitude detonation) or by impact. Unlike normal artillery though, AA shells don't kill you through the explosion itself, but by the massive amounts of shrapnel they pepper their surroundings with. That is why they're so devastating against aircraft. This exactly. If you've ever seen Saving Private Ryan, remember the scene where they're climbing on the tiger to try and take it out, and the germans wheel out this quad-mount gun that turns everyone on the tank into loving hamburger? That was an AA gun. (20mm quad-mount). The stuff the Libyans have now is larger, fires faster, and shreds things more rapidly than that. The thought of using that on an unarmed loving crowd sickens and enrages me. I realize that yes, we *HAVE* to let them sort this on their own, and we cannot get involved, but, jesus christ. Nenonen posted:AA guns are always dual purpose. Other posters have mentioned the use of heavy (German 88mm and 128mm) flak guns against tanks in WW2, but heavy AA is not used any more as missiles have replaced them. Rapid firing small calibre AA guns however are still very popular, and they are also very effective anti-infantry weapons due to their high rates of fire, especially as mounted versions such as the Soviet ZSU-23/4 Shilka (four barrels of 23mm caliber). With just one second burst, it can fire ~15 exploding shells. Yep, and as I posted above, apparently they may have the Tsunguska, as well. Twin mount 30mm cannons against an unarmed crowd means you want to murder them. No if's and's or buts. Doccers fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:41
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Namarrgon posted:I do understand you, but I disagree. People 'empowering' themselves is not worth the slaughter of thousands. We're all humans for fucks sake. Again pointing at the unrealistic optimistic idealism Yes it is, if it means real and legitimate democracy. Otherwise, you get the same poo poo in 20, 30, 40 years, except in the meantime the other dictators have slaughtered many times the number of people who have died in the past few days. It's not just about the end result. How it happens is just as important. This is their revolution and they are willing to die for it. Don't let their courage go to waste.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:42
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roundmidnight posted:stuff So even just a no fly zone, no troops ever set foot in Libya, only stopping Gaddafi from using the air force against the protesters, will destroy the legitimacy of the revolution?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:42
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Gaddafi speech imminent?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:43
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There's rumours of Gaddafi making a speech at some point soon.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:43
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roundmidnight posted:EVERY OTHER Arab dictator I'm sure the actual human beings getting slaughtered in Libya agree with you and volonteer to take one for the team so as not to make the propaganda wars of other countries dictators easier. I have no idea if Libyans would like the west to make them not die as much or not, but I can not believe that they give a rats rear end about other dictators right now...
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Feb 21, 2011 22:43
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Namarrgon posted:I do understand you, but I disagree. People 'empowering' themselves is not worth the slaughter of thousands. We're all humans for fucks sake. Again pointing at the unrealistic optimistic idealism Operation Libyan Freedom. Shock and Awe, motherfucker!!!
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Feb 21, 2011 22:43
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I don't see how, with decent intelligence, dropping medical supplies, food, water and weapons to the people would be emasculating, though I do see how some would interpret it as western meddling. If they want international and humanitarian aid, enabling people to perform medical services (whatever they may now be) and defend themselves against the cretins that call themselves the Lybian army, seems like a decent thing to do
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Feb 21, 2011 22:43
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Brown Moses posted:There's rumours of Gaddafi making a speech at some point soon. $20 says it's "You made me murder your families guys, now just go home and we'll forget about this, ok?"
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Feb 21, 2011 22:44
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Brown Moses posted:There's rumours of Gaddafi making a speech at some point soon. BBC just reported this, who knows where they heard it.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:44
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Dr Scoofles posted:BBC just reported this, who knows where they heard it.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:45
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BonoMan posted:If I'm correct (and I might not be), but a lot of arabic pronunciations are strictly phonetical interpretations since the alphabets don't exactly transcribe to each other. Thus lots of arabic words have alternate spellings in other languages. Al Queda Al Queda/Al Qaeda...Osama/Usama. You're right. And as for The Colonel himself, even he's been inconsistent in spelling it when he's occasionally signed things in English.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:46
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Pine Cone Jones posted:I don't see how, with decent intelligence, dropping medical supplies, food, water and weapons to the people would be emasculating, though I do see how some would interpret it as western meddling. If they want international and humanitarian aid, enabling people to perform medical services (whatever they may now be) and defend themselves against the cretins that call themselves the Lybian army, seems like a decent thing to do Because it legitimizes the people supporting Gadhafi who claim that the protests are backed by "the west", and the poo poo cycle will just continue. Even as much as I want to drop a Hellfire into each and every gun crew firing into a crowd, it's still not our place to intervene, for very good reason.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:46
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roundmidnight posted:Yes it is, if it means real and legitimate democracy. Otherwise, you get the same poo poo in 20, 30, 40 years, except in the meantime the other dictators have slaughtered many times the number of people who have died in the past few days. Gadaffi being arrested by any other person than a Libyan citizen will directly result in a future dictatorship  ? Because that's all that I'm saying.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:47
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Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:47
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Intel5 posted:So even just a no fly zone, no troops ever set foot in Libya, only stopping Gaddafi from using the air force against the protesters, will destroy the legitimacy of the revolution? That's a little more iffy but again you're dictating terms to a sovereign state that will just ignore them anyway. They're already firing on civilians, you think that they're going to stop because the UN says so? Namarrgon posted:Gadaffi being arrested by any other person than a Libyan citizen will directly result in a future dictatorship Gadaffi being kicked out or arrested by anyone other than Libyans is bad news, yes.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:47
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Intel5 posted:So even just a no fly zone, no troops ever set foot in Libya, only stopping Gaddafi from using the air force against the protesters, will destroy the legitimacy of the revolution? If you are to understand "legitimacy" as a monopoly on power, yes. As much as I want to see Qaddafi and his forces getting their asses kicked, it's very tricky to help out the Libyans without unintentional damage to their movement. At best we'd send the message that they couldn't do it on their own, at worst it would tell the world that their revolution was an illegitimate one; a foreign action. \/\/\/ I think the TFF catchphrase "gently caress this gay Earth" applies here.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:47
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Here is one of these anti-air weapons in action. Imagine this beeing fired at people holy poo poo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUeqSseERo&feature=related gently caress literally everything
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Feb 21, 2011 22:48
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Samurai Sanders posted:Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right? Not after the poo poo he's already pulled to stay in power, No. No chance whatsoever. (I would love to be wrong about this I really would)
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Feb 21, 2011 22:48
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Having watched the facebook video with the human chunks  I also noted that there was an important part that people might have missed in their horror and shell-shocked state:There were slides of their medications, such as ampicillin. In those slides, all of the medications the docs had to work with expired back in 2008/2009
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Feb 21, 2011 22:48
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roundmidnight posted:It's not just about the end result. How it happens is just as important. Interventionists also become entangled politically in the whole thing, and find themselves having to support the monster that they've created, even if they agreed the people didn't like it. Eg. there's no chance for an independent Kurdistan for as long as west supports the Iraqi government, just like Hamid Karzai will be the Afghan president for life, or at least for as long as the west cares about Afghanistan. Otherwise it would seem like all the US/NATO/Coalition sacrifices were for nothing.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:48
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Samurai Sanders posted:Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right? Well, not according to him. "I will fight till the last bullet." "I will die on Libyan soil." etc. Then again, Mubarak said the same thing.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:48
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Ahahahahahaha, Ahmadinedschad blames US for uprisings in Tunesia, Egypt and Libya.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:49
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Samurai Sanders posted:Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right? there's no way in hell. qaddafi is no mubarak. this has gotten much more violently much more quickly.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:49
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Welp. If you have a weak stomach or simply don't want to remember images of people blown apart with intestines and viscera strewn around, I suggest not clicking on any of the images or videos just starting to come out of Libya (or that will be coming out in the weeks to come). Seriously, I will save you the trouble and tell you what you are missing: broken, burned bodies missing arms, legs, torsos, heads, etc. I've seen a good amount of footage from Chechnya (and I don't mean that execution video, I'm talking about ambushes and firefights) and that stuff doesn't even come close to this for sheer brutality. This isn't the work of small arms or even heavy machine guns, but of auto-cannons and artillery. Not to say that there is any shortage of images of people with small arms wounds, but you will see the full range of brutality that modern weapons can inflict if you really feel it is worth it to click the links you'll see in the next days. If the gore in Saving Private Ryan made you sick to your stomach, this will have you puking your guts out for a week. i feel like I should make some upbeat claim that we can take heart in this being an unfortunate step in the right direction, but that's just bullshit. Nothing is worth this carnage. Go Libyans. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:49
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