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Greyhawk posted:Ahahahahahaha, Ahmadinedschad blames US for uprisings in Tunesia, Egypt and Libya. The guy's baghdad bob in a dinner jacket, what'd you expect? Also this is expressly WHY we can't get involved.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:50
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Sivias posted:Then again, Mubarak said the same thing.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:50
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roundmidnight posted:If you want to be deliberately dense, go ahead. History supports my assertion. You significantly limit yourself, your nation and the world by believing the future cannot differ from the past.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:50
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roundmidnight posted:Yes it is, if it means real and legitimate democracy. Otherwise, you get the same poo poo in 20, 30, 40 years, except in the meantime the other dictators have slaughtered many times the number of people who have died in the past few days. Your policy is literally that we have to let genocides occur. You do realize that the most extreme Khaddafi loyalist would have the same isolationist policy, right?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:52
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Greyhawk posted:Ahahahahahaha, Ahmadinedschad blames US for uprisings in Tunesia, Egypt and Libya. Source? I want to read this.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:53
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Samurai Sanders posted:Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right? If he was planning to step down gracefully I don't think he would have ordered the army to go out and indiscriminately murder people. What is his plan here exactly? Does he think he can just kill everyone in the whole country and run it himself?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:53
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Jalumibnkrayal posted:Your policy is literally that we have to let genocides occur. You do realize that the most extreme Khaddafi loyalist would have the same isolationist policy, right? Dude, stopping genocide would be interfering with a sovereign nation, that's just uncivilized.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:53
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Uglycat posted:You significantly limit yourself, your nation and the world by believing the future cannot differ from the past. "Maybe this time when I reach into the fire it won't burn my hand!"
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Feb 21, 2011 22:53
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah see, I wasn't expecting that either, that's what gives me a sliver of hope that Gadaffi would make the right decision at the last minute. I wouldn't count on it. The human atrocities that have happened so far in Libya are outweighing what happened in Egypt by leaps and bounds. Not to say what happened in Egypt was a walk in the park - gently caress that, I wouldn't have wanted to be there. But from the reports coming out of Libya... I don't really want to speculate.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:54
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Jalumibnkrayal posted:Your policy is literally that we have to let genocides occur. You do realize that the most extreme Khaddafi loyalist would have the same isolationist policy, right? I think maybe France or Italy might be able to intervene, but the US is so reviled and hated there, it'd be like having Nazi Germany come in to support the wisconsin teachers. A group so reviled and hated it would instantly *END* any popular support just by being a part of it. That's why we can't get involved. Right or Wrong, our name is cursed.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:55
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roundmidnight posted:Yes it is, if it means real and legitimate democracy. Otherwise, you get the same poo poo in 20, 30, 40 years, except in the meantime the other dictators have slaughtered many times the number of people who have died in the past few days. Governments don't fall because they come from 'illegitimate' roots; they fall because they cease to serve the needs of the people. If a government emerges that makes the people feel free, safe, and involved - there will NOT be another revolution '20, 30, 40 years' down the road. If it does not, regardless of how the next government is formed - there will be. In truth, NO government has true 'legitimate' roots. The 'social contract' is bullshit. Read some loving Hume, his ideas (on social contracts, on the is/ought gap, on the problem of induction, and the problem of causation) are directly relevant to the situation today.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:55
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Boner Slam posted:Here is one of these anti-air weapons in action. Don't think Libya has any ACTUAL 2S6's (they were ordered) but yeah that's about what something like a ZSU or a ZU can dish out.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:55
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It really sounds like he's trying to wipe out anyone who is against him, and doesn't care if innocent civilians get in the way.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:56
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Intel5 posted:So even just a no fly zone, no troops ever set foot in Libya, only stopping Gaddafi from using the air force against the protesters, will destroy the legitimacy of the revolution? This is what I was suggesting. I see and understand all the points people are making about why the US/Europe intervening would look bad and carry bad connotations/destroy the legitimacy of the revolution but when I'm hearing about people being turned into literal mincemeat with anti-aircraft guns and hearing reports of indiscriminate shootings and bombings of crowds of civilians, it just viscerally feels like something HAS to be done to stop it, or at least limit the massacre. Someone else pointed out that at the stage things seem to be at now, it's hard to see what effect sanctions would really have on Qadaffi. We've seen what he's willing to do to his own people himself, why should he care if they go hungry? I'm fully aware that I'm probably being massively naive here and that any intervention could well at best damage the legitimacy of the protest. It's just horrible to watch this happening and feel like world leaders aren't willing to do anything but tut and call on other people to take action.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:56
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Boner Slam posted:Here is one of these anti-air weapons in action. I keep seeing that scene from Saving Private Ryan when the 20mm opens up on those dudes on the tank  edit: Libya is bombing their own arms depots according to AJE. Does this mean they are worried about people taking these over and arming?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:56
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XCPuff posted:Source? I want to read this. It was mentioned in the newsticker on Al Jazeera TV. Have not found an additional source yet.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:56
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Brown Moses posted:It really sounds like he's trying to wipe out anyone who is against him, and doesn't care if innocent civilians get in the way. I'm pretty sure that to him "innocent civilians" and "people who are against me" is the same group.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:57
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BIG HORNY COW posted:Don't think Libya has any ACTUAL 2S6's (they were ordered) but yeah that's about what something like a ZSU or a ZU can dish out. If you are firing explosive rounds into civilians, I dont think the fine points of armor-busting capabilities matter
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Feb 21, 2011 22:57
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The Casualty posted:I keep seeing that scene from Saving Private Ryan when the 20mm opens up on those dudes on the tank Exactly this, but the rounds are larger and fire twice as fast as in the movie.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:57
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"10:52pm: Two military planes reportedly land at Benghazi airfield - after their pilots refused to attack the city, our colleagues at Al Jazeera Arabic tell us." Cross your fingers for a Free Libyan Air Force. In a wider view, Libya may be doing more to discredit Arab dictatorships then the collapsed regimes in Tunisia and Egypt did.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:58
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The Cheshire Cat posted:What is his plan here exactly? Does he think he can just kill everyone in the whole country and run it himself? Maybe a few thousand. People get too scared to go into the street, security forces get the upper hand and go gently caress up any ringleaders, order restored, international community does nothing to remove him from power, continue more or less as before. Even in egypt there were a lot of doubters and people who thought enough was enough. It's going to be drat hard to keep momentum going in Libya when people are getting blown to smithereens the minute they congregate or step out of the door.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:58
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MortuusLupus posted:"Maybe this time when I reach into the fire it won't burn my hand!" Really? I've got a racist neo-con evangelical co-worker who insists that Egypt will be incapable of establishing a true democratic government because 'Egypt has NEVER been a democracy!' His reasoning is identical to yours.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:58
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Doccers posted:I think maybe France or Italy might be able to intervene, but the US is so reviled and hated there, it'd be like having Nazi Germany come in to support the wisconsin teachers. A group so reviled and hated it would instantly *END* any popular support just by being a part of it. I don't know why you think France or Italy have any credibility. France has sold weapons to Libya that have been shown to have been used against protesters and has been close with Gaddafi for the past decade for economic reasons. Italy imports a huge amount of Libyan oil and Berlusconi is quite friendly with Gaddafi.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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Is AJE's live stream working for anyone? I'm always getting "Server not found: rtmp://media7.lsops.net/live/" from livestation.com and a "please try again later" from AJE.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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They used anti-aircraft weapons on people during the Lebanese Civil War. Much easier and efficient then tanks.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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Found a very high quality video of the actual tank they use in Lybia. This might not make the gore videos easier to stomach, but whatever here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaYCjfvHIsQ Edit: notice how they (polish in this case) specifically train to target things on the ground, not aircraft
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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I suppose if it's any consolation, being hit by ammunition like that would kill someone too quickly for them to even feel it. That doesn't justify it in the slightest but at least you can feel relatively secure that those horrifying mutilated bodies that used to be people didn't suffer. (Unfortunately there's probably a lot of people who survived as collateral damage and have lost limbs who are suffering greatly  )
The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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Doccers posted:I think maybe France or Italy might be able to intervene, but the US is so reviled and hated there, it'd be like having Nazi Germany come in to support the wisconsin teachers. A group so reviled and hated it would instantly *END* any popular support just by being a part of it. If I was in Wisconsin and the government was shooting me with tanks and AA vehicles, I would cheer Satan himself if he came to defend me. There is no enemy greater than the one that is shooting your unarmed neighbors with a tank.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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Uglycat posted:Really? I love how by these standards no nation ever should have become a democracy. I mean do people like this even think about what the hell they are saying. Xandu posted:I don't know why you think France or Italy have any credibility. France has sold weapons to Libya that have been shown to have been used against protesters and has been close with Gaddafi for the past decade for economic reasons. Italy imports a huge amount of Libyan oil and Berlusconi is quite friendly with Gaddafi. Let's not forget Italy's imperial history in Libya.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:01
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Xandu posted:I don't know why you think France or Italy have any credibility. France has sold weapons to Libya that have been shown to have been used against protesters and has been close with Gaddafi for the past decade for economic reasons. Italy imports a huge amount of Libyan oil and Berlusconi is quite friendly with Gaddafi. Really, I have no clue about their credibility, I just know Italy was saying they were scrambling their air force, and France has a tendancy to get involved in things as well. They were just pulled out of my rear end as an example of "Somebody but the united states" that can and would use military powder. I really don't know as much as I should about north africa, but I'm trying to learn.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:01
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Jalumibnkrayal posted:Your policy is literally that we have to let genocides occur. I don't think you really understand the word 'genocide' correctly. Doccers posted:Really, I have no clue about their credibility, I just know Italy was saying they were scrambling their air force I believe this is just a reaction to the two Libyan fighter pilots defecting to the neighbouring Malta, nothing else. It's more a precaution aimed at assuring Italians that those crazy brown people won't be landing in the St. Peter's Piazza or anything, but will be properly escorted to army air bases. Or maybe Italians just realized that they could finally capture Malta??? Nenonen fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 21, 2011 23:01
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Namarrgon posted:Dude, stopping genocide would be interfering with a sovereign nation, that's just uncivilized. The problem for the US is that if we called out Qadafi for bombing/ using Air cannons against civilians in Bahrain, the rest world might be able to say the same things about what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. No i think its much better if we just sit on our thumbs wait this poo poo out and not risk showing ourselves for the war mongering imperialists that we are.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:03
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Crimes against humanity is the proper term here, not any less bad than genocide, but more accurate.Doccers posted:Really, I have no clue about their credibility, I just know Italy was saying they were scrambling their air force, and France has a tendancy to get involved in things as well. They were just pulled out of my rear end as an example of "Somebody but the united states" that can and would use military powder. No worries, wanting to learn is good. But basically, European countries aren't really more credible than the US in that part of the world.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:03
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Everyone who sells arms sells them to Middle Eastern dictatorships, especially Libya
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Feb 21, 2011 23:04
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Paradoxus posted:The problem for the US is that if we called out Qadafi for bombing/ using Air cannons against civilians in Bahrain, the rest world might be able to say the same things about what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 21, 2011 23:04
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Samurai Sanders posted:Just to confirm, there's no chance that he will volunteer to step down, right? I think he's eliminated that option for himself. I think he went all in with the violence. He saw Egypt and Ivory Coast not attack the protesters completely and those leaders fell. He sees Iran fixing problems with violence and probably decided that was his best bet to end the rebellion and maintain power. Turns out, he was wrong and the people just got more angry about it, much like I think the people of Egypt would have done had Mubarak had enough control to make the military shoot civilians. Now that the violence in large scale has begun, I don't think they people will quit until he is dead. Even if he goes to another country, I think someone in that country is probably going to find him.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:04
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If anybody wanted to help, the best solution would probably be routing humanitarian aid to the revolutionaries via Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:04
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Libyans caught themselves a mercenary and killed him, heres the aftermath: http://www.youtube.com/user/QuatchiCanada#p/u/2/V9OZJ4WvTJU That account has other videos you guys might be talking about so don't click that link if you don't want to see dead bodies.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:05
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I suppose if it's any consolation, being hit by ammunition like that would kill someone too quickly for them to even feel it. sadly, it's often the opposite. These things leave burning hot steel fragments everywhere. If you're not hit somewhere immediately fatal, you have a burning hot chunk of metal imbedded in you and it's ripped open your flesh like Pyramidhead or the chainsaw loving massacre guy. Jalumibnkrayal: personally I agree but we're not Libyans and don't see the world through their eyes. (Personally I'd note that the ZSU series doesn't have particularly strong armor and it's worth taking a shot at it with a .50 or AP .30 cal, but thats because I know too much useless poo poo)
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Feb 21, 2011 23:05
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Paradoxus posted:The problem for the US is that if we called out Qadafi for bombing/ using Air cannons against civilians in Bahrain, the rest world might be able to say the same things about what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not talking about the US. I just used them as an example. I'm not American, I don't care. Basically, I was trying to say this; Jalumibnkrayal posted:If I was in Wisconsin and the government was shooting me with tanks and AA vehicles, I would cheer Satan himself if he came to defend me. There is no enemy greater than the one that is shooting your unarmed neighbors with a tank.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:07
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