Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Sten Freak: Sep 10, 2008; Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.; College Slice

Apology posted:

"Kill people faster! They're disturbing our workers who are busy stealing your oil!!!"

http://news.oneindia.in/2011/02/23/chinaurges-libya-to-restore-socialstability-aid0126.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Good quotes but this one really interests me with China's proximity to superpower status and subsequent involvement in global affairs. Looks like they are sitting this one out other than verbal suggestions but it makes me wonder how they will react in the years to come (same goes for their shipping, piracy and their response when the inevitable happens).

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:22

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# ? May 22, 2024 00:01

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Spiderfist Island posted:

Unlike Somalia, it seems that the people of Libya have found their identity in the country. An identity opposed to him.

I'd have to agree. Libya full on caught the revolution bug. These are not times to gently caress around as a dictator but to get on a plane and plan your new life.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:28

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Amazing footage of today's protest in Bahrain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7bWWLU-IDQ

It's hard to imagine that many people in one place without seeing it for yourself.

Meanwhile, things are heating up in Ivory Coast:

quote:

Gun battles erupt in Ivory Coast's main city

2011-02-23 08:15:00

ABIDJAN - Gunfire and explosions shook an area of Abidjan that supports Ivorian presidential claimant Alassane Ouattara on Tuesday, and at least three soldiers died in clashes with protesters calling on his rival to step down.

The clashes carried on most of the day in Abobo, residents and the military said, while African presidents met with Ouattara on a trip aiming to end his violent post-election power struggle with incumbent Laurent Gbagbo.

The election that was meant to heal the wounds of a 2002-3 civil war and years of economic stagnation since, but looks increasingly likely to reignite the conflict.

A day earlier the delegation -- the presidents of South Africa, Chad, Mauritania and Tanzania -- met Gbagbo, who has defied international sanctions and pressure to yield to the results of a November 28 poll that showed he lost to Ouattara.

The military that supports him has crushed dissent in a series of bloody crackdowns, but military officials say they have been provoked because some Ouattara supporters are armed.

"Since this morning, there has been constant shooting between the military and the people here," said Abobo market trader Sephora Konate, who said she heard explosions and machinegun fire, but that later in the night it calmed.

"Everyone is terrified. Children are crying but there's nothing we can say to comfort them."

A commander at army headquarters who could not be named said three soldiers were confirmed killed in the clashes, but thought there were up to five dead. The military rarely gives civilian casualties, but previous clampdowns have left a trail of dead.

More than 300 people have been killed since the poll and the turmoil has driven cocoa futures to their highest level in more than three decades.

Ivory Coast is the world's biggest cocoa producer, and a spokesman for Ouattara said he would extend the ban he had ordered on cocoa exports to March 15.

http://rtbnews.rtb.gov.bn/?c=newsDetail&news_id=18031

Looks like our holiday cups of cocoa and Peppermint Schnapps are going to cost a lot more next Christmas :ohdear:

And an account by a man who was tortured by the Bahraini police:

quote:

'Abdallah Salman Mohammad Hassan told Amnesty International that he and his friend were stopped in their car at a checkpoint near Manama's Pearl Roundabout.

The police searched the vehicle and found a Bahraini flag with the words "We are staying in the Martyrs (Pearl) Roundabout until our demands are met" written on it.

The pair were beaten and taken to a police station in the district of al-Na'im where they were again assaulted.

'Abdallah Salman Mohammad Hassan was also blindfolded and beaten with a wooden stick after being taken to another police station in the district of al-Gadhaibiya.

He said: "They tied my hands behind my back and then put me on a chair; I was standing on the chair. Then they put my arms behind the door from the top and pushed the chair away. I was left suspended: my body on one side of the door and my arms on the other side. It was very painful.

�I asked for water and they didn't give it to me. I wanted to pray and they refused. I didn't sleep. I was left suspended on the door for a few hours."

'Abdallah Salman Mohammad Hassan was interrogated about the protests and held for 30 hours before being released.

He went to al-Salmaniaya hospital for X-rays and his right arm was put in plaster. He said his friend was released earlier than him but did not give any details.

The unrest in Bahrain started with a �Day of Rage�, organized on Facebook and Twitter, on 14 February and apparently inspired by popular protests in Egypt and Tunisia.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/bahrain-must-protect-peaceful-protesters-torture-2011-02-22

Ouch, that door thing sounds really painful. The creative ways we think of to injure and agonize our fellow man even with crude implements and short supplies. If you don't have a club, use a broom handle or a stick. If you don't have a metal hook in the ceiling, just hang someone over a door. It's not the type of ingenuity that we should appreciate :smith:

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:33

Exitlights: Dec 25, 2006; Calmly and clearly announce that the building must be evacuated.

Apology posted:

If you don't have a metal hook in the ceiling, just hang someone over a door. It's not the type of ingenuity that we should appreciate

Must be a common police torture tactic:

quote:

They took me to Imbaba police station and put me in a room by myself. Two officers came in and told me to confess. I asked, "What to?" They answered, "Confess to the theft." The head of the Criminal Investigations unit said, "Work on him until he confesses." They handcuffed my hands in front of me and hung me from the door for more than two hours. They had whips and hit me on the legs, on the bottom of my feet, and on my back. When they took me down, they brought a black electric device and applied electro-shocks four or five times to my arms until they started smoking. All of this time they kept saying, "You have to confess." The next morning they beat me again and whipped me with the cable on my back and on my shoulders. I fainted after three hours of the beating.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:38

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Exitlights posted:

Must be a common police torture tactic:

There must be a handbook or something out there

Note also the old whip-em-with-an-electrical-cord-or-cable trick. Gruesome.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:43

ShortStack: Jan 16, 2006; tinystax

That must be what Gaddafi was reading earlier.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:44

Chade Johnson: Oct 12, 2009; by Ozmaugh

Ace Oliveira posted:

I wish they would go back to how they were in the 1950s. Intervening in the Korean War is probably the most useful thing they've ever done.

Yeah I'm glad the UN forces were able to assist the UN in bombing the poo poo out of the peninsula. They didn't even end the war, simply a ceasefire. I think you mean you liked it when the UN was a tool of the US that would go along with everything America does.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 04:57

Vladimir Putin: Mar 17, 2007; by R. Guyovich

Chade Johnson posted:

Yeah I'm glad the UN forces were able to assist the UN in bombing the poo poo out of the peninsula. They didn't even end the war, simply a ceasefire. I think you mean you liked it when the UN was a tool of the US that would go along with everything America does.

Look at North Korea and South Korea at the present day. The difference of a country on the peninsula under the American sphere vs. under the then Communist sphere couldn't be more stark. That's got to count for something.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:00

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

The protests (and the violence) are still going strong in Yemen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpDC_I4eRg

Also, a written account:

quote:

At least two anti-government protestors were killed and eight others were wounded in an attack launched by government backers on protestors demanding the ouster of Yemen's president in the capital Sanaa late Tuesday, eyewitnesses said.

"Two young anti-regime protestors camping at a sit-in near Sanaa University were shot dead by government backers wielding rifles," Hamoud Hazza, one of the protest rally's organizers, told Xinhua.

"Another eight protestors were wounded by gunshots of the government supporters, two of whom were in critical conditions," he added.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/7296873.html

One man's brutal suppression is another man's riches:

quote:

The turmoil in Libya, Africa's fourth largest oil producer, sent oil prices soaring with Brent North Sea crude costing $108.57 per barrel at one stage, the highest level since September 2008.

New York's WTI light sweet crude for March delivery closed at $93.57 a barrel, a gain of $7.37, or 8.5 percent, from Friday's close.

http://www.mysinchew.com/node/53663?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

And an interesting article about meshnets, which are developing technology that would allow mobile phones to link together to form a crude replacement for the internet in case of a blackout:

quote:

Mobile phones are a valuable infrastructure that often gets overlooked in discussions of resiliency. Everyone has a phone so everyone is a potential node. Research in wireless meshnets that use mobile phones instead of carrier backbones offer localized solutions for resilient networks. If a city loses it�s carrier support, if AT&T & Verizon are offline, mobiles can default to a lilly-pad model where voice & data move from phone to phone, hopping across the community through wireless overlaps. The phone becomes the hot-spot and a personal IP address. This allows information to pass from across the mobile meshnet until it reaches an internet uplink, such as a Meraki node. In this manner individuals can still coordinate resources & activities if, say, an earthquake or a dictator has taken mobile carriers & ISP�s offline, and can hop to a strong wireless uplink outside the range of blackout.

To look forward, local mobile meshnets could be used as distributed processing clusters, like a SETI At Home for mobiles. Consider the processing power latent across a city of 20 million mobile subscribers, such as Tokyo. As smart phones integrate more diverse sensors, mobile meshnets could be addressed as distributed sense platforms, analyzing air quality, for example, or deputized as camera arrays. [Klint Finley expands on this idea over at ReadWriteCloud.] Consider what could be done with an API for addressing clusters of mobile sensors. [Update: Imagine the types of shared augmented reality experiences that might be possible across localized mobile meshnets... eg bands could push experience layers out to their audiences during concerts - any venue could run a layer that would automatically sync with a user's phone/headset when they entered it's radius of activity.] When mobiles have the ability to firewall from selected authorities or create opt-in experience zones users might develop incredibly sophisticated tools for distributed in-field utilities. Of course, so might criminals and insurgents� and regimes.

http://www.urbeingrecorded.com/news/2011/02/20/meshnets-freedom-phones-and-the-peoples-internet

Hahaha, gently caress you, Kill Switch, can't stop the signal.

Taking a taxi in Yemen = Hitch-hiking in Detroit

quote:

Yemeni women expose sexual harassment by taxi drivers

Written By: Fares Anam

Samah, 25, lives in Sana�a. She woke up one morning to go to work. She stopped a taxi and asked the driver to take her to work. While in the backseat, she noticed the taxi driver staring at her in the car mirror.

She was then surprised to sees him turn towards her and then he tried to fondle her body. She screamed and quickly got out of the taxi. Samah said that this was the third time that she had been exposed to sexual harassment by taxi drivers.

�They look in the mirror of the taxi, talk bad words in any subject, even if the girl doesn�t talk. This is harassment,� said Samah. And she is not alone in facing this problem.

A.E., 23, is from Sana�a and is a student at Sana�a University. She decided to take a taxi one day because she was late for a university lecture. As she drove in the taxi, the driver began asking her about the place she was going. She told him again that she wanted to go to Sana�a University. The driver then began ask her about her name and spoke words of love.

�I loved you when I saw you,� he told her and followed that up with some more obscene words. Enraged, she flew out of the taxi in hurry. Then she took another taxi but faced the same problem. And so vowed never to take a taxi again. Scores of women in Sana�a complain that taxi drivers often harass them. These drivers, they say, suffer from ignorance, a disdain for women and from a bias against women who leave their homes to work.

Shameful behavior Women say that these ill-behaved drivers will try many tactics to get the attention of females. Sua�ad al-Qadasi, chairperson of the Women�s Forum for Research and Training, said that she has heard a number of stories from women who have experienced taxi driver harassment. �I have received a lot of complaints from women saying that they were exposed to shocking words and some bad people who touch their bodies when they use taxis and especially also in buses,� said al-Qadasi. �This is shameful behavior and against Yemeni traditions. This bad behavior is due to the lack of education among people.� She also said that some men ask girls why they are leaving their homes and tell them that they should stay at home where they belong.

�The harassment starts with bad words. Other people do nothing and stay silent and then men touch the girl�s bodies,� said al-Qadasi. Those who can afford taxis do so because this is often the most efficient way to get from place to place. Women sometimes also assume that taxis will be safer than taking a bus where men commonly will try to put their hands on a woman�s knee.

http://opinions-alaaisam.blogspot.com/2011/02/yemeni-women-expose-sexual-harassment.html?spref=tw

:drat:

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:00

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Apology posted:

There must be a handbook or something out there Note also the old whip-em-with-an-electrical-cord-or-cable trick. Gruesome.

Torture is a terrible thing, and it's too loving common in developing countries like Egypt, but even in developed countries like Russia it happens time to time. And it doesn't help that certain rich countries have both used or condoned torture themselves and delivered prisoners to Egypt among other places fully knowing that they will be tortured, all in the name of T.W.A.T.

I was in a torture seminar where a nurse from a centre specialized on therapy for torture victims described some of the various things done to people. Eg. the bottom of feet are beaten with a stick, which may sound bad already, but it's worse in the long run. Eventually the feet will start to lose their delicate elastic structure due to all the swelling and soft tissue turning hard, and when that happens you can't walk properly any more because after a hundred steps your feet are in insufferable pain. And the damage can't be repaired or healed.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:01

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Apology posted:

There must be a handbook or something out there Note also the old whip-em-with-an-electrical-cord-or-cable trick. Gruesome.

Sound like strappado, also known as Palestinian hanging.

If I remember correctly, the dead guy the contractors posed with at Abu Ghraib died from being beaten while hung like that.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:11

Suntory BOSS: Apr 17, 2006

Nenonen posted:

Torture is a terrible thing...

Torture has a horrific history, a terrible present and unfortunately, an equally awful future. Devices like the Pain Ray will almost certainly be employed by future regimes to inflict unending agony and pain on dissidents, and there will be no scars nor wounds to tell the tale. Humanity does some scary poo poo.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:12

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Vladimir Putin posted:

Look at North Korea and South Korea at the present day. The difference of a country on the peninsula under the American sphere vs. under the then Communist sphere couldn't be more stark. That's got to count for something.

It's impossible to tell what the DPRK would be like today if Kim Il-Sung had won the war for good. One theory is that it would have helped the country to avoid some of the ultra-Stalinism that resulted, as there wouldn't have been a foreign army in the southern part of the peninsula threatening the communists militarily, or a rival Korean government to threaten the communist political hegemony. That is to say, the stale mate of the Korean war made North Korea what it is today. It likely wouldn't be a great place had they won, but maybe it'd be more like Vietnam today. But we cannot know.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:13

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

I think if that happened, it would've still persisted because of the American presence in Japan.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:17

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Nenonen posted:

Torture is a terrible thing, and it's too loving common in developing countries like Egypt, but even in developed countries like Russia it happens time to time. And it doesn't help that certain rich countries have both used or condoned torture themselves and delivered prisoners to Egypt among other places fully knowing that they will be tortured, all in the name of T.W.A.T.

I was in a torture seminar where a nurse from a centre specialized on therapy for torture victims described some of the various things done to people. Eg. the bottom of feet are beaten with a stick, which may sound bad already, but it's worse in the long run. Eventually the feet will start to lose their delicate elastic structure due to all the swelling and soft tissue turning hard, and when that happens you can't walk properly any more because after a hundred steps your feet are in insufferable pain. And the damage can't be repaired or healed.

Oh man oh man, my toes curl just thinking about it :gonk:

In other news: Egypt's provisional government is still trying to set up a Mubarak shadow government, those pricks:

quote:

Key ministers stay in Egyptian cabinet reshuffle

22 Feb 2011 18:05
Source: Reuters // Reuters

* Key ministers stay in Egypt's cabinet reshuffle

* Protesters demand new government purged of Mubarak figures

* Stimulus package after blow to growth

* Ashton says funds under discussion

(New throughout)

By Marwa Awad and Patrick Werr

CAIRO, Feb 22 (Reuters) - Egypt's new military rulers appointed a few ministers who opposed Hosni Mubarak on Tuesday, but exasperated the Muslim Brotherhood and other groups by keeping key portfolios chosen by the deposed leader unchanged.

The Islamist Brotherhood, Egypt's biggest political organisation, said the new cabinet showed Mubarak's "cronies" still controlled national politics and that a call for a million man march on Friday would show people's anger and frustration.

"This new cabinet is an illusion," senior Brotherhood member Essam el-Erian told Reuters. "It pretends it includes real opposition but in reality this new government puts Egypt under the tutelage of the West," he added.

"The main ministries of defence, justice, interior and foreign remain unchanged, signalling Egypt's politics remain in the hands of Mubarak and his cronies," Erian said.

Others involved in the movement that toppled Mubarak's 30-year rule with an 18-day uprising rejected the reshuffle put together by the military council, led by Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, who has been defence minister for two decades.

As the military struggled to organise a handover to power with free and fair elections in six months after the downfall of Mubarak, its neighbour Libya was engulfed by a fierce crackdown on a mounting revolt to the 41-year rule of Muammar Gadaffi.

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/key-ministers-stay-in-egyptian-cabinet-reshuffle?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I swear these protest will never end if Mubarak's old cronies don't stop dicking around, the pricks :argh:

And why would revolutions cause the price of food to slump? Because there's speculation that demand will be low, because people won't be able to afford more food :eng99:

quote:

Corn, Wheat Extend Losses on North Africa Unrest; Rice Tumbles
February 22, 2011, 9:58 PM EST
Grains, Soybeans Plunge by Chicago Limit on North Africa Unrest
Farmers Fail to Meet Demand as Corn Stockpiles Drop to 1974 Low
Corn Futures Advance to Highest Level Since July 2008
Record U.S. Cattle, Hog Prices Seen on Shrinking Herds, China
Sugar Market May Have Surplus Next Year, Kingsman Says

By Jae Hur
Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Corn and wheat slumped for a third day on speculation that protests in North Africa and the Middle East may slow global growth, reducing demand for crops. Rice tumbled to the lowest level in more than five weeks

May-delivery corn fell as much as 1.3 percent to $6.81 a bushel, the lowest level since Feb. 9 on the Chicago Board of Trade, was at $6.8125 by 11:39 a.m. Tokyo time. The grain dropped the exchange�s 30-cent limit yesterday after touching $7.4425, the highest since July 2008.

Higher costs of wheat, sugar and dairy products sent the United Nations� World Food Price Index to an all-time high last month. Protesters clashed with government forces yesterday in Libya, where more than 200 people have been killed, Human Rights Watch said. In the past month, popular uprisings toppled regimes in Tunisia and Egypt, the world�s largest wheat buyer.

Escalating violence in Libya after Tunisia and Egypt �would have a negative impact on the global economic recovery and slow demand for food grains for now,� said Kazuhiko Saito, an analyst at Tokyo-based broker Fujitomi Co. �When this kind of unrest calms down, the market will find support as demand for grains will increase from this area to curb food inflation.�

Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi appeared on state television yesterday vowing to fight the growing rebellion until his �last drop of blood.� Diplomats have resigned and soldiers deserted in protest over a crackdown on anti-government demonstrators that has left hundreds dead.

Wheat for May delivery fell as much as 1.4 percent to $7.85 a bushel, the lowest price since Jan. 20, and last traded at $7.8825. The grain dropped the exchange�s 60-cent limit yesterday.

Rice for May delivery plunged as much as 4.3 percent to $13.945 per 100 pounds, the lowest level since Jan. 14. The contract last traded at $13.98 after sinking by the bourse�s 50- cent daily limit yesterday.

Soybeans for May delivery rose as much as 1.1 percent to $13.25 a bushel. The oilseed last traded at $13.1975 after earlier slipping 0.3 percent to $13.0775, the lowest level since Dec. 20.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20..._medium=twitter

This last bit of news about the food prices has really gotten to me. I think I'll go watch some TV now and eat some junk food while other, less fortunate people starve :btroll:

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:20

wildmamboqueen: May 31, 2001; mad about the mage; The Great Twist

Nenonen posted:

Torture is a terrible thing, and it's too loving common in developing countries like Egypt, but even in developed countries like Russia it happens time to time. And it doesn't help that certain rich countries have both used or condoned torture themselves and delivered prisoners to Egypt among other places fully knowing that they will be tortured, all in the name of T.W.A.T.

I was in a torture seminar where a nurse from a centre specialized on therapy for torture victims described some of the various things done to people. Eg. the bottom of feet are beaten with a stick, which may sound bad already, but it's worse in the long run. Eventually the feet will start to lose their delicate elastic structure due to all the swelling and soft tissue turning hard, and when that happens you can't walk properly any more because after a hundred steps your feet are in insufferable pain. And the damage can't be repaired or healed.

Still is harsh. Thanks for sharing.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 05:24

UltraShame: Nov 6, 2006; Vocabulum.

CNN's commentary by Zakaria tonight was very interesting.

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/02/22/exp.ps.gadhafi.libya.zakaria.cnn

You have to sit through a quick commercial before the interview, just FYI.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 06:24

whoflungpoop: Sep 9, 2004; With you and the constellations

Trying to not recklessly post unconfirmed reports, but I've been watching this guy on the libya17feb live stream from inside Libya (when it's up). His accounts and his contacts' accounts from within the country have been pretty accurate so far.

That being said, I hope for the sake of human decency that these aren't: defecting soldiers in Benghazi were crushed/buried alive for refusing to shoot protestors (italics are mine):

transcript of translated phone relay conversation posted:

IN FATHEEL CAMP[army barracks in Benghazi] TODAY THEY FOUND MORE SOLDIERS THAT REFUSED TO SHOOT PROTESTERS. BURIED UNDERNEITH CONCRETE. AND THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE THEM OUT WITH A BULL DOZER. THEY HEAR CRIES.
I THINK SOME ARE ALIVE. I THINK THEY DUG A HOLE PUT THEM IN IT AND THEN COVERED IT WITH CONCERTE.

According to the source, this occurred at least a day ago while there were still loyal Gaddafi units in the area. Reports of this nature are just starting to emerge in the east, since they've had over a full day of relative peace and are just now beginning to assess the situation.

The same source estimates that 300 mercenaries are in custody of protestors in Benghazi, many of whom surrendered to the protestors and some of whom may have been killed by the protestors as well:

speaker posted:

I TOLD YOU GUYS THEY HAD 60 MERCENARIES IN THE NORT COURT [Court of North Benghazi] LIKE YESTERDAY RIGHT? NOW THEY HAVE 300...CAPTURED
I think they killed them though, they did not capture them, they surrendered. I think everybody knew that.

speaker, referring to an unnamed female contact also in the city posted:

She tries to upload videos, but the internet always cuts off after 3 minutes. She tells me of a mercernary with all his limbs and his head cut off. She saw it. Basically, she is scared for her life. Sleepless nights.

IF these accounts are accurate, it paints an interesting picture of how desperate the forces still loyal to Gaddafi became when it was evident that they were losing the east, and fled while leaving the mercenaries behind to be overwhelemed and/or slaughtered by the protesters.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 06:29

Hipster_Doofus: Dec 20, 2003; Lovin' every minute of it.

UltraShame posted:

CNN's commentary by Zakaria tonight was very interesting.

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/02/22/exp.ps.gadhafi.libya.zakaria.cnn

You have to sit through a quick commercial before the interview, just FYI.

This is great.

Someone needs to make a Gaddafi bingo card.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 06:33

UltraShame: Nov 6, 2006; Vocabulum.

Hipster_Doofus posted:

This is great.

Someone needs to make a Gaddafi bingo card.

Zakaria may be the smartest man in American news short of Lehrer. Or maybe it's just that Parker and Spitzer are so idiotic with the questions that they ask that it makes Zakaria look like a genius.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 06:41

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Toplowtech posted:

That would work too. Isn't Ruby Moroccan?

She's Egyptian, but you keep your filthy hands off of her!

Shageletic posted:

Might want to turn on PBS for frontline's report on Egypt. Saw clips of it earlier and they had some spectacular shots of the revolution.

Definitely worth watching. The first segment follows the April 6 group which was instrumental in organizing the January 25th protests. The second part is about the Muslim Brotherhood. Lots of really good footage throughout.

You can watch the entire program at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/revolution-in-cairo/

edit: Forgot to mention that gas prices jumped about $0.10/gal around here this afternoon. The Costco near me hadn't raised their prices as of 7pm, so there were lines about three times as long as usual.

quadratic fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Feb 23, 2011

# ? Feb 23, 2011 06:45

UltraShame: Nov 6, 2006; Vocabulum.

PBS is good for you, folks.

fake edit: American folks.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 06:50

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

whoflungpoop posted:

Trying to not recklessly post unconfirmed reports, but I've been watching this guy on the libya17feb live stream from inside Libya (when it's up). His accounts and his contacts' accounts from within the country have been pretty accurate so far.

That being said, I hope for the sake of human decency that these aren't: defecting soldiers in Benghazi were crushed/buried alive for refusing to shoot protestors (italics are mine):

AJE is reporting this as underground cells, which makes more sense then how it's described in the twitter.

Onto other things that are going to end badly in Libya

quote:

8:19am @AbdulHamidAhmad, the editor in chief of Gulf News, tweets:

Libyan Interior Minister Abdel Fattah Younes has been reportedly kidnapped in Benghazi after he had resigned to join protesters.

@CNNValencia, the journalist Nick Valencia, follows up:

BREAKING- State Media: Libya's interior minister who resigned to support anti-govt protesters has been kidnapped #CNN

Whelp, he's probably already dead.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 07:37

Nckdictator: Sep 8, 2006; Just..someone

I wouldn't be suprised if he was kidnapped by some splinter faction of the protester, not that I don't support them but I think the guy only resigned to cover his own hide when it became obvious the regime was/is crumbeling. Then again I kow nothing about him so I might be wrong.

Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Feb 23, 2011

# ? Feb 23, 2011 08:02

Taco Duck: Feb 18, 2011

Chade Johnson posted:

Yeah I'm glad the UN forces were able to assist the UN in bombing the poo poo out of the peninsula. They didn't even end the war, simply a ceasefire. I think you mean you liked it when the UN was a tool of the US that would go along with everything America does.

Yeah, you forgot the part where the North started the war.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 08:17

whoflungpoop: Sep 9, 2004; With you and the constellations

farraday posted:

AJE is reporting this as underground cells, which makes more sense then how it's described in the twitter.

You're probably right, as there was also mentions in that skype session about accounts of 1000-1500 troops locked into "underground jails" in Benghazi. I'm under the assumption that these separate descriptions are talking about the same thing, but there are other accounts of occupied barracks being razed that further complicate the details.

That transcript was translated to English in real-time earlier today from the Skype sessions between Mohammad and various journalists. I'll check to see if there's an original arabic transcript that provides more clarity.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 08:43

aeglus: Jul 13, 2003; WEEK 1 - RETIRED

Vladimir Putin posted:

Look at North Korea and South Korea at the present day. The difference of a country on the peninsula under the American sphere vs. under the then Communist sphere couldn't be more stark. That's got to count for something.

South Korea was a horrible dictatorship that brutally massacred protesters and only changed within the last 20 years. Though if you go for long-term (meaning now) then I guess yeah.

No comment on the war itself, but just wanted to remind people that South Korea was pretty bad right after the war.

Related to South Korea though: I was talking to a Korean person about Libya, Egypt, etc and the person asked why I'm bothering to pay attention because it's not like we can do anything so it's a waste of time.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 09:12

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Apology posted:

Taking a taxi in Yemen = Hitch-hiking in Detroit

From what I saw in Qatar, this kind of creepy behaviour is not unique. I've had friends followed home in their car several times, have comments made to them at traffic lights, has someone crash into them, then offer them money for a date while discussing the insurance details etc...
Hell being *with* someone wasn't protection, for example. England vs Brazil match, went with a Brazilian friend of mine, went for a piss, I was gone less than five minutes, when I came back there was a guy sitting in my reserved seat, trying to chat my friend up and touch her.
Guys there has very little tact, and just came off as creepy and desperate.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 09:46

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Don't derail this into a debate about Middle-East sexual harassment, it ruined the last thread.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 09:52

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Lascivious Sloth posted:

Don't derail this into a debate about Middle-East sexual harassment, it ruined the last thread.

sorry didn't see that last thread

# ? Feb 23, 2011 09:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live blogs for today:
AJE
Guardian

The Guardian has an update of the last 12 hours for those of you who need catching up on events:

quote:

Muammar Gaddafi appears increasingly isolated as the UN security council yesterday called for an immediate end to the violence in Libya and demanded that he lives up to his responsibilities to protect his own people. But the man who has ruled Libya for 42 years made clear in a long, sometimes incoherent speech that he is not giving up without a fight. Urging loyalists to take to the streets to fight "greasy rats" in the pay of enemies ranging from the US to al-Qaida, he declared: "I am not going to leave this land. I will die as a martyr at the end � I shall remain, defiant. Muammar is leader of the revolution until the end of time."

Reports from Tripoli describe corpses left in the streets, burnt-out cars and shops, and armed mercenaries who looked as if they were from other parts of Africa. Residents were running out of food and water because they feel too threatened to leave their houses. But while Gaddafi clings on in Tripoli, the eastern part of the country is already out of his grasp. Benghazi, Tobruk and other eastern towns, are no longer under the control of his security forces.

Unconfirmed reports said the interior minister had resigned, urging the army to join the people and respond to the "legitimate demands".

Libyan and foreign analysts said Gaddafi's characteristically bizarre performance underlined his desperation. "He is like an injured animal," said an exiled opposition activist, Abu Nasser. "He knows he has his back to the wall." Noman Benotman, a former Islamist fighter, said: "He will stay and fight until the last day."

Be that as it may, Gaddafi cuts an increasingly forlorn figure. The Arab League has barred Libya from attending meetings of the bloc until it ends its violent crackdown on protesters, which it said involved violations of human rights and international laws. Peru has severed relations with Libya over its use of force against civilians.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 09:55

Roark: Dec 1, 2009; A moderate man - a violently moderate man.

Nenonen posted:

It's impossible to tell what the DPRK would be like today if Kim Il-Sung had won the war for good. One theory is that it would have helped the country to avoid some of the ultra-Stalinism that resulted, as there wouldn't have been a foreign army in the southern part of the peninsula threatening the communists militarily, or a rival Korean government to threaten the communist political hegemony. That is to say, the stale mate of the Korean war made North Korea what it is today. It likely wouldn't be a great place had they won, but maybe it'd be more like Vietnam today. But we cannot know.

There's also the theory that Kim Il-Sung would have been just as miserable a Stalinist thug with control over the whole peninsula, and would have subjected the entire Korean people to his batshit, wannabe-Stalin rule. Post-war South Korea wasn't exactly paradise, but it was a step up on the North (and has been infinitely better since the 80s). And there's the argument that Japan would have been re-militarized ala West Germany with Kim so close.

As you said, it's impossible to tell. But on the whole, it's hard to argue against having intervened in Korea considering what we now know about the DPRK and on the grounds that, yeah, Kim invaded the South. It wasn't like Vietnam. It was also a test of the UN's legitimacy at the time.

Libyan intervention via the UN is a non-starter, as other posters have pointed out. It's just a glorified talking shop on good days, and Russia and China would oppose anything beyond statements of basic condemnation. And isn't Libya still on the Human Rights Council?

# ? Feb 23, 2011 10:03

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

NYT has a hilarious article about how insane the family is, taken from cable leaks: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/world/africa/23cables.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

quote:

Before Condoleezza Rice visited Libya in 2008 � the first secretary of state to do so since 1953 � the embassy in Tripoli sought to accentuate the positive. True, Colonel Qaddafi was �notoriously mercurial� and �avoids making eye contact,� the cable warned Ms. Rice, and �there may be long, uncomfortable periods of silence.� But he was �a voracious consumer of news,� the cable added, who had such distinctive ideas as resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with a single new state called �Isratine.�

# ? Feb 23, 2011 10:08

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

It's quite telling when you get ostracized by the Arab League for being too brutal against protesters. Arab League's members include Saudi Arabia, Syria, Sudan and a bunch of other countries with not a very good track record. On one hand it tells that the scales have tipped in the Middle East and North Africa against tyranny; and on the other, those autocratic governments still in power probably want to use Gaddafi to divert attention away from how terrible their own secret police is.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 10:09

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's a lot more videos appearing on the various live blogs now the media have more access to the country. The AJE blog has one of Tripoli residents fighting the pro-Gaddafi supporters, shows what they are up against.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 10:15

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Roark posted:

And isn't Libya still on the Human Rights Council?

That is meaningless unless we're to expect that the Colonel will personally attend the meetings in New York. No Libyan diplomats will be defending his good name, not in UN and not anywhere else. Anyway, it's the General Assembly and Security Council that make decisions, and I don't think that Libya has much leverage in either.

Especially after Gaddafi's touching speeches, both in General Assembly and yesterday... :parrot:

# ? Feb 23, 2011 10:19

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

From Twitter:
Reports of pro-Gaddafi forces atacking an Egyptian aid convoy. 3 dead & 14 wounded

Getting another confirmation that the pro-#Gaddafi attack on Misurata has been thwarted. Attack was directed at local radio station.

In benghazi #libya. Everything closed. Feels abandoned. Comms down. Hospitals still full. No sign of ghaddafi's people

Seen anti aircraft shell casings on streets in benghazi #libya. Damage on nearby buildings shows they were widely used

Every town to benghazi a checkpoint. Reporters as rare as rain here.

Confirmed: Libyan military vessel has defected to Malta after refusing orders to attack Benghazi.

#French President's top diplomatic adviser now says European nations should consider sanctions against #Libya

French official: possible sanctions against Libya to include travel embargo and freezing assets

French official: those responsible for mass killings will face international trials

Confirmation that Furjan tribe joined the revolution is significant; they are from around Sirt, #Gaddafi's home town.

#Libya gas supply to Italy stopped ...

Aljazeera now showing footage of dead in Tripoli; report that some morgues were raided and corspes taken by Gaddafi troops

Reports that Libyan consulate in Alexandria now flies the independence flag.

Reports from Al-Bayda: Situation peaceful; but citizens on alert for attacks, especially air strikes.

Reports from Al-Bayda: Bakeries giving bread for free; pharmacies giving medicine for free; neighborhood watches formed.

The west city Nalut is under control of its citizen, blocks were set up from yesterday on the road entering the city

Eyewitnesses in Tripoli report seeing more mercenaries in jeeps roaming the city.

On one wall in Torbuk saw grafitti: "freedom=AlJazeera"

Cameras & reporters strengthen demonstrators. Libya is sealed off. Everyone I speak to there says: 'Tell the world.'

Reuters FLASH: Italian foreign minister says estimates of 1000 dead in #Libya are "credible".

From AJE

quote:

WikiLeaks has released at least three US diplomatic cables relating to Libya in the past 24 hours. Two appear on the WikiLeaks website:

LIBYA'S SUCCESSION MUDDLED AS THE AL-QADHAFI CHILDREN CONDUCT INTERNECINE WARFARE (March 9, 2009)

BLACK SHEEP MADE GOOD? SAADI AL-QADHAFI'S EXPORT FREE ZONE IN WESTERN LIBYA (March 3, 2009)

One was released only to the Norwegian Aftenposten newspaper:

SAIF AL-ISLAM'S STAFF REACHES OUT ON POL-MIL ISSUES (December 14, 2009)

# ? Feb 23, 2011 10:54

Mr Plow: Dec 31, 2004

Thanks for the update Moses. I sort of wish there was another thread strictly for situation updates as wading through derail arguments about unrelated things to get to the news is getting a little tiresome.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 11:07

Lycus: Aug 5, 2008; Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

On Al Jazeera:

quote:

Iranian President Ahmadinejad condemns Libya's use of force on demonstrators.

Yeah, thanks, Mahmoud. That means a lot coming from you.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 11:09

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# ? May 22, 2024 00:01

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

If success in Libya inspires the Iranian protesters he'll be using exactly the same tactics if he wants any chance of staying in power.

# ? Feb 23, 2011 11:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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