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Not work for the government. edit: I swear that post said something different before. Anyways, yes but the fact that was fine being complicit in the regular repression and occasional massacre is why I don't think he has credibility. I don't question his conscious about stepping down now, just that he didn't so before.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:19
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redscare posted:Again, what was he supposed to do that wouldn't involve him or his family getting shot Resign? Find another occupation? Sell hotdogs? Suck cock? I don't care what he would do. I think it's important to note the implications of what he DID do.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:20
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Xandu posted:Not work for the government. Yes it did I edited it to make a better point And what alternatives would he have for work in a place like Libya other than the government
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Feb 25, 2011 22:20
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Sivias posted:I guess it's fine if Qaddafi bombs peaceful protesters and has the capability of dumping mustard gas on them. Oh, let's not forget he's hired international mercenaries to partake in this 'civil war'. There isn't a single person in this thread who has even remotely suggested that it's "fine" for innocent unarmed protesters to be murdered. There is no indication that the "international community" regards it as anything other than atrocious. The discussion was whether or not the UN, under its current laws, has a mandate to intervene. Your aggressive attitude towards someone who has bothered to read and understand the UN's charter and rules is unhelpful.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:21
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The UN man is talking again. Does he have anything of value to say? We shall see.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:22
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Just discovered on twitter some guy spamming links to his crap blog under the guise of bogus news tweets. http://twitter.com/!/meansofcontrol is his twitter and http://meansofcontrol.tumblr.com is his blog. He came off with such gems as: "Col. #Qadaffi Proved Right - Al-Qaeda is Backing Insurgents in #Libya http://bit.ly/elCrty ... #alqaeda #feb17" and "Is death toll in #Libya inflated by 800%? Maybe. http://bit.ly/ev5Is3 #fakerevolution #feb17 #propaganda" I tried commenting on his blog but he is superquick when it comes to deleting dissent from his shameless Ghaddafi apologetic pages. Maybe goons can help remind him that defending this regime is shameful and wrong.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:23
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Jut posted:Enough with the drama, his mustard gas reserves were destroyed years ago, now you're treading into the "BUT HE STILL HAS WMD!!!1" territory that bush used to justify going into iraq (whoops didn't find any!). You are just being a dick and not making any sense while doing so. You argument boils down to a mixture of "war is hell" and "deal with it" while exaggerating what he is saying. What is happening is not just civil war. Civil war can be militaries fighting each other without murdering the rest of the population. This actions taking place could easily fall into the category of crimes against humanity.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:24
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Keep in mind the whole Rwanda thing went on with little to no UN involvement. The UN is just a political body, nothing more.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:24
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Leperflesh posted:There isn't a single person in this thread who has even remotely suggested that it's "fine" for innocent unarmed protesters to be murdered. To be fair, it's not like having a mandate under the charter has ever stopped the UN from intervening before. I think sending in a peacekeeping force is impractical and a bad idea, but Ch7 gives the SC leeway to do almost whatever it wants.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:25
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Didn't see your question, but I'm going to try and repeat what I said earlier. My argument isn't necessarily about the physical presence the international community should or shouldn't have in this revolution. My argument is simply the definition of genocide/crimes against humanity/overall terrible poo poo. From the reports I've read from the Libyans themselves is mixed. Some say "We need to do this revolution for ourselves. It needs to be our victory." At the same time I hear phone calls of people in the streets talking about the execution of civilians, women on balconies for the reason of only being on balconies. Reports of mercenaries destroying blood banks and specifically targeting doctors. It's systematic. It isn't just tactical. In war you'd target generals and supply lines in an attempt to succeed in your cause. The cause of the mercenaries and Gadaffi is to cause as much death and inhumane acts upon innocent life as possible. I don't understand how that can be seen as anything less than a crime against humanity and needs to be stopped. Human suffering is not a justification for any ambition. e; Leperflesh posted:There isn't a single person in this thread who has even remotely suggested that it's "fine" for innocent unarmed protesters to be murdered. Fair enough. I see and understand my aggressive involvement in the discussion and will rescind any further input on the topic. Sivias fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 22:25
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Nope, nothing new from the guy. Just the usual CONSIDERATIONS CONSIDERATIONS CONSIDERATIONS GADDAFI'S AN rear end in a top hat. I am disliking this person more and more each time he opens his mouth.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:28
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ChubbyEmoBabe posted:Keep in mind the whole Rwanda thing went on with little to no UN involvement. Exactly. The UN was set-up primarily to prevent conflicts between nations, not deal with internal strife. Even if it was set up for that purpose, there's not much that can be done that doesn't result in a pile of bodies. Sure, something SHOULD have been done about Rwanda, but considering how long it takes to mobilize a sizeable force and given the rapid nature of the slaughter there, there ain't poo poo they could have done about it anyway. Only small detachments could have been rapidly deployed and, well, we saw how well a small detachment held up in Srebrenica.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:28
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ChubbyEmoBabe posted:Keep in mind the whole Rwanda thing went on with little to no UN involvement. If you want to really depress yourself watch Shake Hands with the Devil: The Journey of Roméo Dallaire to learn more about this. It eventually drove Roméo Dallaire into depression and alcoholism, as he was stuck watching it happen and couldn't get help from the rest of the UN.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:31
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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/2011225181731209442.html posted:Tunisia's transitional government has said it will hold elections by mid-July at the latest, the official TAP news agency has said, quoting a cabinet statement.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:34
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DevNull posted:You are just being a dick and not making any sense while doing so. You argument boils down to a mixture of "war is hell" and "deal with it" while exaggerating what he is saying. What is happening is not just civil war. Civil war can be militaries fighting each other without murdering the rest of the population. This actions taking place could easily fall into the category of crimes against humanity. Ok it's a "armed conflict not of an international character", maybe you didn't notice but the anti-Govt protests are armed too. CQ's being a tit, and if he isn't killed, he most probably spend the rest of his life in prison. But seriously, what do you expect, Team America World Police to step in and remove him from power? I'm not exaggerating...several pages ago he was dribbling on about 'strongly worded letter' and 'Russia and China ruing everything'. Fake Edit: Looks like the SC are pushing ahead to remove Lybia from the HR council, and will push though a travel ban, arms embargo, sanctions etc... and I would imagine that they are busy drawing up plans to help the humanitarian needs given what the SG said.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:36
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The Mitterand government was complicit in Rwanada and tied the hands of the UN.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:38
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Sounds like the sanctions will be targeted directly at Gaddafi, his family, and his allies.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:38
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DevNull posted:If you want to really depress yourself watch Shake Hands with the Devil: The Journey of Roméo Dallaire to learn more about this. It eventually drove Roméo Dallaire into depression and alcoholism, as he was stuck watching it happen and couldn't get help from the rest of the UN. Thanks I'll have to check that out (and share it). One thing I would love to see is some countries pull up a few nimitz size aircraft carriers and battleships outside of tripoli...ya know... to observe and ensure the regional stability 
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Feb 25, 2011 22:40
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Jut posted:But seriously, what do you expect, Team America World Police to step in and remove him from power? Just for the record, the first part made me giggle. And if you're referring to me as 'him' - I never said anything about some strongly worded letter or Russia and china?
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Feb 25, 2011 22:41
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Sivias posted:It's systematic. It isn't just tactical. In war you'd target generals and supply lines in an attempt to succeed in your cause. I'm not sure how you would know that this isn't the intention, though. You can't target the 'generals' of an uprising without first forcing the crowds protecting them out of the streets. Saddam Hussein couldn't be taken out without killing thousands of Iraqis first, even though the US had cruise missiles and everything. Was killing all those Iraqi people a genocide? Should the UN have intervened? To the Gaddafi government the problem is that the rebels are too stubborn to submit after the first casualties. And who is responsible for the dead? Osama bin Laden.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:41
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ChubbyEmoBabe posted:Thanks I'll have to check that out (and share it). Only one country has Nimitz size carriers. Unless Britain got some since I last read anything.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:41
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quote:Now Saif al-Islam Gaddafi is talking to foreign journalists, saying that the Libyan armed forces are "holding back" and that he wants to negotiate with the rebels: Is he really that dumb that he'd believe anyone believes his lies?
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Feb 25, 2011 22:42
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Brown Moses posted:Is he really that dumb that he'd believe anyone believes his lies? I'm having flashbacks to Baghdad Bob.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:43
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euphronius posted:Only one country has Nimitz size carriers. Well they can just weld a few of theirs together
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Feb 25, 2011 22:43
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This isn't a civil war, this is thousands of mercenaries unleashed on a city of a million people by a mad man.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:44
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Also putting an air craft carrier next to Tripoli would be highly aggressive and a violation of sovereignty. So UNSC cover would be needed.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:44
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ChubbyEmoBabe posted:Thanks I'll have to check that out (and share it). I want to see this resolved with as little outside interference as possible. Outside interference is what put a lot of these countries in the position they are currently in. However, I did see this on twitter... evanchill posted:What I heard from activists today is that they're just waiting for a no-fly zone, then they can march on Tripoli. #libya #feb17 It appears that the protesters are expecting and possibly waiting on the rest of the world to step in a bit to help. That is from an AJE reported in Libya.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:46
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Jut posted:Ok it's a "armed conflict not of an international character", maybe you didn't notice but the anti-Govt protests are armed too. To be fair, I'll be glad to bitch about the United States stepping all over business in the U.N. to fit their needs, just like Russia and China. It's a political body and that's to be expected. I'm not sure what anyone would expect the UN to do, given it's authority. I'm just glad that there is at least some recognition of the situation and that some of the member states are acting in unison. I think that's a good thing to come out of this body. I'm a liberal by the way, just to head off any accusation of being a conservative because of my "BUT RUSSIA AND CHINA!" comments. *E* I would be interested in the NO FLY ZONE proposal. Have we heard of any more Air Force involvement in suppression of the revolution? If so, this might be something to seriously take into consideration.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:46
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Can someone explain to me how a group of people can be victims of genocide while capturing vast swaths of territory at the same time? Also the rebels are armed, fighting back, and not in uniform. That's not kosher per the UN, either. Let's try and focus on the realistic solutions the international community can engage in instead of cheerleading another rushed, ill-advised war, ok everyone?
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Feb 25, 2011 22:46
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Ghetto Prince posted:This isn't a civil war, this is thousands of mercenaries unleashed on a city of a million people by a mad man. I fully expect those mercs to start turning their guns on Gaddafi and friends once the checks start bouncing
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Feb 25, 2011 22:48
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Nenonen posted:I'm not sure how you would know that this isn't the intention, though. You can't target the 'generals' of an uprising without first forcing the crowds protecting them out of the streets. Saddam Hussein couldn't be taken out without killing thousands of Iraqis first, even though the US had cruise missiles and everything. Was killing all those Iraqi people a genocide? Should the UN have intervened? To your first question - frankly, yes. The US's invasion of Iraq should not have been legal. And from what I remember, it wasn't? Didn't Bush go invade Iraq without the UN consent? Just because the United States has such political and economic and world power shouldn't make us immune to the international Law. As for the Genocide - I'm gonna try to get off the topic of it so I'll let you decide.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:48
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Sivias posted:Just for the record, the first part made me giggle. And if you're referring to me as 'him' - I never said anything about some strongly worded letter or Russia and china? My bad, you said... Sivias posted:So basically: We're gonna have some serious meetings about this... Anyway just saw your edited post above so I'll leave it.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:49
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DevNull posted:It appears that the protesters are expecting and possibly waiting on the rest of the world to step in a bit to help. That is from an AJE reported in Libya. Sadly, they will likely receive none.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:49
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The Guardian is saying the UK diplomats have been advising Libyan senior figures that they can either defect or expect to face trials for crimes against humanity. With Gaddafi failing to make any progress that'll hope make the regime collapse even more quickly.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:49
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Sivias posted:To your first question - frankly, yes. The US's invasion of Iraq should not have been legal. And from what I remember, it wasn't? Didn't Bush go invade Iraq without the UN consent? Just because the United States has such political and economic and world power shouldn't make us immune to the international Law. The UN SC authorized Bush's invasion. I think it was UNSC R 1441.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:50
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VikingSkull posted:Can someone explain to me how a group of people can be victims of genocide while capturing vast swaths of territory at the same time? They are not victims of genocide. Some of them could be considered victims of crimes against humanity. The UN states nothing about being uniformed combatants. That is part of the Geneva Conventions, which covers war between sovereign nations. quote:Sadly, they will likely receive none. They could possibly get a no-fly zone.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:50
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DevNull posted:I want to see this resolved with as little outside interference as possible. Outside interference is what put a lot of these countries in the position they are currently in. However, I did see this on twitter... I agree 100% I was mostly just *wishing* we could do something like that. Basically saying "you start mowing down civilians the gloves are coming off quickly".
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Feb 25, 2011 22:51
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Sadly, they will likely receive none. A no-fly zone isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it's going to take some time to get the political will behind it and then set it up. Peacekeepers are a ways off at best, and a coalition of the willing with a UN mandate behind it isn't going to happen at all.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:51
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euphronius posted:The UN SC authorized Bush's invasion. I don't think it did. Edit: Basically the UNSCR was designed so that only the SC could declare a material breach of the ceasefire, but the US did so unilaterally.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:52
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ChubbyEmoBabe posted:I agree 100% I was mostly just *wishing* we could do something like that. Basically saying "you start mowing down civilians the gloves are coming off quickly". You could understand why the US would be hesitant to support such a precedent.
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Feb 25, 2011 22:53
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