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Spiky Ooze posted:Yeah, so you know how the UN is looking at war crimes... The US added a clause that the mercenaries can't be punished for war crimes so that the US doesn't have to be worried about being punished for war crimes. Another reminder that the US joins many dictatorships in refusing to join the ICC. For the new page: Maps Guardian map of cities controlled in Libya For monitoring Twitter cioxx posted:This is the best site for monitoring twitter, for those who don't know. For monitoring aircraft unable to land at Tripoli Monkeytime posted:Here's an interesting site that lets you monitor global air traffic: Live Blogs BBC Guardian AJE Guardian news round up: quote:• The European Union has agreed sanctions against the Gaddafi regime. The measures include an arms embargo, asset freeze and visa ban, the Associated Press reports. The decision has yet to be announced officially but the AP cites EU sources. The sanctions also include measures to ban sale of any equipment that might be used for repression by Gaddafi, the report says.
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Feb 28, 2011 15:49
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Not to derail this thread into another hemisphere but:Sivias posted:Sounds like the fall of the Mayan empire. They built too big and too fast for their society to sustain. Overpopulation, peasant revolt, and the decline in trade. Their whole society vanished from the records and dispersed into the wilderness. The Maya collapse probably wasn't inevitable and it certainly didn't cause their whole society to vanish. Only the city states in southern lowlands -- the ones which were if anything the least susceptible to environmental pressures -- fell during the collapse, and imo the more likely culprit there was a hundred years of internecine warfare. The story of an out-of-control unsustainable Maya civilization collapsing makes a good parable but it's a bit of a simplistic picture. Young Freud posted:The end of the Mayan long-count calender in 2012 is around the corner. Also this isn't true. Saying that the Maya calendar ends in 2012 is like saying our calendar ends in 9999 because we write the year with four digits.
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Feb 28, 2011 15:57
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quote:Pro-Gaddafi jets have struck ammunition depots near Libya's second city of Benghazi, witnesses tell AFP news agency.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:03
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I love the video of Saif giving the troops some morale and weapons. Combine this with his latest western interview and awesomeness just follows along. What a loving lying psychopath!!! I hope he gets a hail of bullets to catch.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:10
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Couple of bits from Libya:quote:Ahmed Swaihey, the son of opposition leader Abdulrahman Swaihey, has told Al Jazeera that his father was kidnapped from their home in Tripoli early this morning. He said that his brothers had earlier been kidnapped, and that witnesses said that their home was full of "mercenaries and troops" this morning, and his father was missing. quote:Speaking to Al Jazeera's Jacky Rowland, Abdul-Fatah Younis, the former head of Libyan Special Forces who renounced his post last week, said he was not ruling out calling in an Arab air force, a European air force or the United States Air Force for air support, in that order of preference.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:31
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Al Jazeera Arabic is reporting Gaddafi is trying to open negoiations with the various tribal heads. Too little, too late I think. [edit] He's also appointed the head of his foreign intelligence service to speak to them. Maybe he really does believe all of this is being organised by forces outside Libya.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:36
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From the Guardian:quote:British forces have been asked to develop plans to impose a no-fly zone on Libya, David Cameron has just told Parliament.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:45
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Petey posted:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/28/110228fa_fact_steavenson?currentPage=all This is a great article. The part where the writer talks to a retired military intelligence General is especially interesting, as the General seems to imply that the military had a hand in encouraging Mubarak to leave his office.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:51
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Jamsque posted:the General seems to imply that the military had a hand in encouraging Mubarak to leave his office. You don't need to be an in-crowd general to see that he didn't leave voluntarily.
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Feb 28, 2011 16:58
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Brown Moses posted:From the Guardian: I've also heard that the EU & the US are trying to devise a plan for a no-fly zone that utilizes air power from another Arab country rather than flying their own patrols. They see this as a better alternative that doesn't insert unneeded Western military influence into the equation.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:01
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Namarrgon posted:You don't need to be an in-crowd general to see that he didn't leave voluntarily. I take your point, but realising that the game is up and bugging out voluntarily is not the same as having a bunch of generals come and tell you that they think you should go for a helicopter ride.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:09
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Jamsque posted:I take your point, but realising that the game is up and bugging out voluntarily is not the same as having a bunch of generals come and tell you that they think you should go for a helicopter ride. Just two days earlier if memory serves he was making a big speech how he'd die on Egypt's soil. I'd be very surprised if the latter scenario didn't happen. Then again I'm still asserting the Libyan civil war will count at least 10,000 dead so maybe I'm just a negative nancy.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:11
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More from David Cameron:quote:Cameron suggests Britain will consider arming the Libyan opposition.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:11
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quote:4.08pm: Andrew Sparrow is continuing to blog the Commons Libya debate. Labour's David Winnick just said Britain should stop selling arms to "murderous bastards" Fair point.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:13
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Brown Moses posted:More from David Cameron: God drat it I hate white people
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Feb 28, 2011 17:15
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Maybe they can sell them some shoulder launched surface to air missiles, that's never backfired in the past.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:17
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Has this been posted yet?quote:Venomous hatred Full article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12585395
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Feb 28, 2011 17:19
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Brown Moses posted:Maybe they can sell them some shoulder launched surface to air missiles, that's never backfired in the past. Maybe what we can do is go in with, say, the CIA and MI6 to keep costs down, right? Then we provide small arms in the forms of guns and rockets and poo poo, right? Then our agents from the CIA and MI6 organize the Libyan opposition into cells and teach them how to become a sustainable fighting force... teach them how to run training camps, teach them how to become professional asymmetrical soldiers, etc. Then, once they win, we cut off support for them if they aren't 100% sympathetic to our needs and install oil execs as the government. Good plan?
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Feb 28, 2011 17:21
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lil sartre posted:One Turkish construction worker told the BBC: "We had 70-80 people from Chad working for our company. They were cut dead with pruning shears and axes, attackers saying: 'You are providing troops for Gaddafi.' The Sudanese were also massacred. We saw it for ourselves." That could seriously cause some problems with the legitimacy of the revolutionaries. I mean, if they're a bunch of murderous assholes, they're not any better than Gaddafi, right? Although, there is the chance that it's a false-flag operation on Gaddafi's part. That could be likely, since the actual mercenaries have apparently been in comparatively good hands. I really don't know.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:23
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MrQwerty posted:Maybe what we can do is go in with, say, the CIA and MI6 to keep costs down, right? Then we provide small arms in the forms of guns and rockets and poo poo, right? Then our agents from the CIA and MI6 organize the Libyan opposition into cells and teach them how to become a sustainable fighting force... teach them how to run training camps, teach them how to become professional asymmetrical soldiers, etc. Can we somehow work in that the guns given to the rebels are paid for with drug money? That worked well the last time.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:23
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lil sartre posted:Has this been posted yet? It's very plausible it happened, but man, what a vile loving sentence to write, especially after we've received confirmed reports that a lot of the protesters have protected the mercenaries from being killed. quote:Libya's new forces for change have simply picked up where the colonel left off his bloodletting. Oh, it wasn't written by the BBC. Some filmaker writing a piece for them.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:24
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Slantedfloors posted:Can we somehow work in that the guns given to the rebels are paid for with drug money? That worked well the last time. Just let Haliburton handle it
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Feb 28, 2011 17:25
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Slantedfloors posted:Can we somehow work in that the guns given to the rebels are paid for with drug money? That worked well the last time. Well gently caress, seen Mexico? That's a given.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:26
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Finlander posted:That could seriously cause some problems with the legitimacy of the revolutionaries. I mean, if they're a bunch of murderous assholes, they're not any better than Gaddafi, right? I don't think anyone can say that all revolutionaries are acting like that, but considering the chaos in the country and the extent of racism in Libyan society it's probable many of them are indeed targeting black people in a bid for revenge. Another article from al jazeera quote:African migrants targeted in Libya
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Feb 28, 2011 17:34
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Furious Mittens posted:I've also heard that the EU & the US are trying to devise a plan for a no-fly zone that utilizes air power from another Arab country rather than flying their own patrols. They see this as a better alternative that doesn't insert unneeded Western military influence into the equation. Given the recent advances by the rebel forces, it may be worth considering minimal intervention strategies. One idea, gas up the Libyan planes on Malta, replace the air-to-ground rocket pods with air-to-air missiles, apply a rattle-can roundel with the old flag's colours, and let the Libyans lead the enforcement of their own no-fly zone. Also, set up defection-corridor safe zones and leaflet these routes with copies of the Malta approach chart over Libyan bases. I'm starting to realise that although too little intervention would lead to more of a bloodbath, too much intervention would prevent this from being an ultimate referendum by the Libyan people.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:40
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Xandu posted:It's very plausible it happened, but man, what a vile loving sentence to write He has a point tho about the venom with which the words "African mercenary" have been used for the last week or so. Not foreign mercenaries, but specifically "African". It's been pretty cringeworthy to read articles on the uprising because of that. As if Libyans aren't African.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:40
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Thrust On Moore posted:I thought I'd share an amusing article that I stumbled across a few hours ago, about how these protests will come to the US. Yeah, Louis Farrakhan isn't the most stable and reasonable of individuals.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:44
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lil sartre posted:As if Libyans aren't African. I know what you mean, but they aren't really. They, along with most of North Africa, identify as Arabs and there's a difference. I'd imagine the media coverage surrounding this has contributed to the hostility towards Africans in Libya, though. edit: My problem was that acting like some people attacking/possibly massacring African migrants is the same thing as bombing hundreds of your own people are the same is wrong.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:44
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Xandu posted:I know what you mean, but they aren't really. They, along with most of North Africa, identify as Arabs and there's a difference. I'd imagine the media coverage surrounding this has contributed to the hostility towards Africans in Libya, though. Yeah, geographically they're African, but in a lot of people's minds, "African" means "Black people". Which is why black people in the US are referred to as "African Americans" even if they've never been to Africa in their life. People seem to fall very easily into an "us versus them" mentality, sadly. All you need to do to unite a group is to point to another group and go "those guys hate us! gently caress those guys!" That said, not all the protesters are like that; as other people have mentioned the mercenaries that have been captured have been treated humanely as POWs. With any kind of large civil unrest though, you're going to get opportunists that are delighted that they can now justify their prejudices and act upon them. I think the best way to look at it is: Some Libyans are racists, but that doesn't mean the revolution is illegitimate. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Feb 28, 2011 |
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Feb 28, 2011 17:47
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Frozen Horse posted:Given the recent advances by the rebel forces, it may be worth considering minimal intervention strategies. One idea, gas up the Libyan planes on Malta, replace the air-to-ground rocket pods with air-to-air missiles, apply a rattle-can roundel with the old flag's colours, and let the Libyans lead the enforcement of their own no-fly zone. Also, set up defection-corridor safe zones and leaflet these routes with copies of the Malta approach chart over Libyan bases. I'm starting to realise that although too little intervention would lead to more of a bloodbath, too much intervention would prevent this from being an ultimate referendum by the Libyan people. I think you are correct. The only downside that I could see with a Libyan-led enforcement of a No-Fly Zone is that it would give cover to widespread atrocities on the ground with the official line being "THE WEST IS ARMING MERCS TO BOMB US! LOOK!". Of course, this could happen with a neutral force patrolling the no-fly zone, but there would at least in theory be a way to prove that "X" nations air forces did not drop any bombs. But I completely agree that it needs to be done with as little of a western military footprint as possible.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:49
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Brown Moses posted:"Cameron suggests Britain will consider arming the Libyan opposition."  Options: 1) Political Naiveté? 2) An ill-advised naked grab for a quick buck through warmongering? 3) A misguided attempt to score political  "Sort that Ghaddafi out!!!"  domestic points?4) Trying to curry future favour with what will be the new government in oil contracts? 5) Just plain loving stupid? spikenigma fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Feb 28, 2011 |
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Feb 28, 2011 17:58
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spikenigma posted:
Dingdingding, we have a winner! Remember what Davey Cam just got back from? That's right, a tour of the middle east with all of Britain's biggest arms manufacturers. He is in the mood for selling bombs to Arabs.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:08
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From CNN's Mideast blog:CNN posted:[LIBYA, 11:16 a.m. ET Monday, 6:17 p.m. local] The United States is "repositioning" naval and air forces in the Mediterranean/North Africa region to be prepared for any option that they may need to exercise, Pentagon spokesman Col. David Lapan tells CNN. This comes around the same time this morning that Clinton seemed to rule out direct military action in Libya. I would assume this repositioning and (presumably) heightened state of alert is just in case Ghaddafi decides to send Kamikazes against the Sixth Fleet, bombs Malta, or does something equally unlikely.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:10
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quote:Cameron suggests Britain will consider arming the Libyan opposition. I just saw them replay (bits of) the speech on BBC and I didn't hear it that way. He said he was ordering MOD to look into no-fly zone possibilities. I didn't hear him say anything about arming Libyans and none of the news analysis mentioned it either. They did mention that other than the no fly zone, other military action hadn't been ruled out, and that anything military would be (obviously) coordinated with allies.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:24
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breaklaw posted:I just saw them replay (bits of) the speech on BBC and I didn't hear it that way. He said he was ordering MOD to look into no-fly zone possibilities. I didn't hear him say anything about arming Libyans and none of the news analysis mentioned it either. They did mention that other than the no fly zone, other military action hadn't been ruled out, and that anything military would be (obviously) coordinated with allies. quote:"We do not in any way rule out the use of military assets,"
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Feb 28, 2011 18:47
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Monkeytime posted:From CNN's Mideast blog: Oh great, looks like Obama is ready to start yet another illegal, non-sanctioned war. Moving your naval forces around to 'prepare for anything' could be interpreted as an act of hostility. The people of Libya have repeatedly asked that the US and Europe stay out of their fight but of course the Western powers are unable to help themselves when it comes to possibly bombing brown people. This is just going to invite trouble.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:50
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The Angry Bum posted:Oh great, looks like Obama is ready to start yet another illegal, non-sanctioned war. Moving your naval forces around to 'prepare for anything' could be interpreted as an act of hostility. The people of Libya have repeatedly asked that the US and Europe stay out of their fight but of course the Western powers are unable to help themselves when it comes to possibly bombing brown people. This is just going to invite trouble. It's like the Gulf of Tonkin all over again. Realistically though America won't engage in any military actions. We can't afford it.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:59
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Sivias posted:It's like the Gulf of Tonkin all over again. Has that ever stopped the US in the past? Side question for those history buffs out there: Has Quaddafi ever faced resistance on the scale of what's going on in Libya right now? I'm curious if there's any way he might possibly recover from this or if it's a sure sign that he's finally on his way out.
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Feb 28, 2011 19:02
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Sivias posted:It's like the Gulf of Tonkin all over again. Heaven forbid they add a few tens of billions of dollars to the trillions in debt to themselves they'll never pay back.
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Feb 28, 2011 19:03
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The Angry Bum posted:Oh great, looks like Obama is ready to start yet another illegal, non-sanctioned war. Moving your naval forces around to 'prepare for anything' could be interpreted as an act of hostility. I might just be an US nationalist, but I don't make this connection. I view it as "If the consensus determines that US should give air support for a no fly zone, we'll be ready."
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Feb 28, 2011 19:03
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