Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

«‹›3125 »

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Scratch that part about not showing the western half, the guy who made the first map also made this one showing who's in control & troop locations:

Click here for the full 1440x871 image.

Click here for the full 1440x871 image.

(Already posted the second one, but I should probably keep them on the same page.)

The guys who made these maps is Iyad El-Baghdadi, and made a few in the past as well, which can be viewed here. His Twitter account has updates on Libya as well.

e: he's gone to bed, but his last tweet is pretty interesting:

quote:

Also, before I go to sleep, I should tell you I expect tomorrow to be decisive on the Sirt/Sidra front too.

Narmi fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 5, 2011

# ? Mar 5, 2011 22:37

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 10:51

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

I'm really surprised at how fast this Libyan revolution is moving. I remember it taking years of brutal civil war for something like this to depose a dictatorship.

I guess this is what happens when you have a populist uprising with no one to support the sitting government.

# ? Mar 5, 2011 22:52

Ghetto Prince: Sep 11, 2010; got to be mellow, y'all

Once the madman and his family are dead, it seems like the Gadaffi tribe are going to be taking the blame for everything from the massacres to the mercenaries, plus all the little atrocities that we can't keep track of right now... I wonder if any of them realize that they've managed to piss off literally every other tribe in Libya, including the tribes that are supposed to be their vassals or whatever, and they're not a large tribe to begin with.

This isn't even taking the cities and attacks into account, just look at Zawiya, those poor people have been surrounded and under constant attack for eighteen days now, but they're just not giving up, and I don't think they're going to be very merciful when this all over.

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:02

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The map of the east is a bit out of date I think, Bin Jawad was reported as being in the hands of the rebels earlier today, and Ras Lanuf was in the hands of the rebels since yesterday night.

Looks like the Egyptians have started scanning docs:

quote:

Finfisher intrusion software (spy on email software) proposal by Gamma ~300,000 Euros

http://moftasa.posterous.com/amndawla/

And Wikileaks posted the following:

quote:

wikileaks: Egyptians: Don�t throw away #AmnDawla shredded paper! We have the world�s best shredder reconstruction team on hand.

They've also got their own Facebook page, where they are posting documents, and sharing data recovery tips.

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:07

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Brown Moses posted:

The map of the east is a bit out of date I think, Bin Jawad was reported as being in the hands of the rebels earlier today, and Ras Lanuf was in the hands of the rebels since yesterday night.

You're right, I posted yesterday's by accident. Fixed now - thanks!

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:15

Uglycat: Dec 4, 2000; MORE INDISPUTABLE PROOF I AM BAD AT POSTING
---------------->

Young Freud posted:

I'm really surprised at how fast this Libyan revolution is moving. I remember it taking years of brutal civil war for something like this to depose a dictatorship.

I guess this is what happens when you have a populist uprising with no one to support the sitting government.

Or maybe this is what happens when the media and the world at large pay close attention to daily events.

Basically, a civil war is an effort at reaching a consensus. A 'social contract' (the recognition of a single legitimate government) depends upon a consensus. Often they can be reached by non-violent means - debates, discussion, voting, etc. Sometimes they cannot. When communication fails to produce a consensus, guns are drawn. But the end goal of any war is to create a consensus.

You can do this either by killing every last member of the opposition, or by demoralizing the opposition to the point where they stop fighting.*

The latest communication technology affords us much greater ability to reach a consensus non-violently, and accelerates the process of reaching a consensus even when violence is involved.

Even if the people on the ground in Libya are not all 'digital natives', they still get media from television. When the people of the world are watching daily events, producing detailed maps of troop movements, compiling a large sampling of tweets from across the region into a coherent narrative, and when networks like Al Jazeera are reporting that narrative (in a way that is accessible to people on the ground in Libya), the consensus can be reached MUCH faster - and with much less bloodshed.

*I cribbed this bit from Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu basically says 'killing off every last enemy is impractical; so you should work to demoralize the enemy so they stop fighting.' Media and communication is absolutely essential to such an effort. 'War Crimes' such as genocide and mass murder are best understood (imho) from this perspective.

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:17

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

quadratic posted:

The second one looks like it's regarding the purchase of a metric fuckton of hollow-point ammunition.

That's not really surprising, as I think several TFR goons would point out.

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:29

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Narmi posted:

Not sure why it's working for me and not you, but here's the full article for anyone in a similar situation:

As the tense political stalemate continues in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, residents fled the Abobo neighborhood, an opposition stronghold.

Residents enjoyed a lull in violence in the Abidjan suburb of Koumassi.

Women chanted �We want peace� in a spontaneous march on Tuesday in the Abidjan suburb of Koumassi.

Thank you so much. I figure that maybe there's a set number of freebie clicks you get before they just say "Hey if you want to read every drat thing we print, why don't you buy a subscription, cheap-rear end" :shobon:

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:42

Frozen Horse: Aug 6, 2007; Just a humble wandering street philosopher.

Jack Napier posted:

Shredded mountains

Apparently they used a simple slice, it should be easy to reassemble. I'm hoping they bag it up and take it all.

There are many things that Arabs and Persians do not see eye-to-eye on, but I hope that Egypt takes note of the great success that Iran achieved in reconstructing this style of shredded documents following the revolution of 1979. Even by hand, it is possible if it is not completely destroyed. Today, with scanning and image-matching software, it should be greatly facilitated. I have great hope that it will all be reconstituted, entered as evidence where and when needed, and then kept as an archive similar to the records of the former East German STASI.

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:54

Pleads: Jun 9, 2005; pew pew pew

That is more shredded paper than I can properly understand. Even if they can't reconstruct it all I hope it at least serves its purpose as the nice soft bedding for a revolutionary hamster :3:

# ? Mar 5, 2011 23:58

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Uglycat posted:

The latest communication technology affords us much greater ability to reach a consensus non-violently, and accelerates the process of reaching a consensus even when violence is involved.

Even if the people on the ground in Libya are not all 'digital natives', they still get media from television. When the people of the world are watching daily events, producing detailed maps of troop movements, compiling a large sampling of tweets from across the region into a coherent narrative, and when networks like Al Jazeera are reporting that narrative (in a way that is accessible to people on the ground in Libya), the consensus can be reached MUCH faster - and with much less bloodshed.

This is an interesting point, but I really should've clarified that by "support", I really meant "external support". There's no one funneling guns or sending military advisors to Qaddafi or the protesters, as of yet. That's what I meant. It really puts an emphasis on how much pain this "rotten apple", "he's our son of a bitch" proxy war mentality has caused over the last half-century.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 00:00

Uglycat: Dec 4, 2000; MORE INDISPUTABLE PROOF I AM BAD AT POSTING
---------------->

Young Freud posted:

This is an interesting point, but I really should've clarified that by "support", I really meant "external support". There's no one funneling guns or sending military advisors to Qaddafi or the protesters, as of yet. That's what I meant. It really puts an emphasis on how much pain this "rotten apple", "he's our son of a bitch" proxy war mentality has caused over the last half-century.

That's kind've the other thing...

It used to be that little wars were fought as proxies for larger conflicts. Russia might back the enemy of the US, etc. We've reached a point where larger powers generally stay out of smaller conflicts - and outside support has been key in perpetuating these little wars.

This may be partially facilitated by a mutual understanding by all major powers that prolonged wars are bad, and that the goal must be to reach a consensus rather than to win a larger ideological war.

Unfortunately, there are forces in the US Gov't (and in Russia, and presumably in China) that still believe there's a larger ideological war to be fought. Certainly Israel feels that way. This mindset is the biggest threat to humanity, with respect to these revolutions.

Israel needs to get their poo poo in order, accept the new world that's forming around them, make the right concessions, and find a way to exist peacefully with their neighbors. I worry it's too late for them to do so - as they've been so bold and bull-headed in past negotiations.

edit- the end of the cold war is very key here. And wikileaks makes transparency a reality, whether the superpowers want it to be or not. This dramatically weakens support for cloak-and-daggar efforts to fight a covert ideological war on the shores of dark-skinned people. Furthermore, the reach of the internet allows folks like us to better empathize with the people who suffer in war-torn regions, eroding support for such prolonged conflicts.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 00:11

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

#AmnDawla is going to be busy tonight. Lot's being posted on the Facebook page too.

From the basement of the security HQ:

The shredding room, seems to have been interupted midshred:

State Security files. Each file is an individual person:

Flickr account with 75 scans of leaked documents, sadly all in Arabic. (zipped)

Youtube video of people wandering around the former home of the ex Interior Minister.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 00:25

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

Brown Moses posted:

Youtube video of people wandering around the former ~~home~~ office of the ex Interior Minister.

edit: I got goosebumps watching that. The fact that they were just told to leave by the soldiers rather than taken away, never to be heard from again is a testament to how much things have changed.

quadratic fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 00:38

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

"Yeah, I'm just chilling out on this pile of shreded documents reading some secret files in the security HQ, you?"

Cells in the security HQ:

File on Khaled Said:

Computers with hard disks removed:

Video of a mobile phone that's also a stun gun, found in the HQ.

Jack Napier posted:

First image is supposedly a sex tape of an arab princess

Apparently it's a Kuwati Princess and Egyptian businessman.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 00:56

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Brown Moses posted:

Apparently it's a Kuwati Princess and Egyptian businessman.

It would be pretty funny to watch British rags self-combust if it turned out to be a certain English Princess and a certain Egyptian born businessman on those tapes...

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:07

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's loads of documents in Arabic being posted, I'm just not posting them here because most people here don't speak Arabic, but if you do there's alot of reading for you to do.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:09

DeadShort: Mar 12, 2005; 208v upside your head

Brown Moses posted:

Video of a mobile phone that's also a stun gun, found in the HQ.

That would be this nasty little bugger: http://www.jskelin.com/en/productview.asp?id=230

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:15

Sneakums: Nov 27, 2007; MAXIMUM.SNEAK.

herp derp i can't read

Sneakums fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:20

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Apparently Amr Moussa was part of the regime's plan to "stop" the revolution, he was gonna be on a faux "presidential council" with other popular media and sports figures..wow..

I'll read through this stuff and look for anything interesting. Also apparently they have files on everyone in college.

Ham fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:22

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

http://twitter.com/SultanAlQassemi

quote:

Al Jazeera: Libyan Consul General in Mali resigns from post #Libya

quote:

AFP: Berlusconi hopes for "change like that in Tunisia & Egypt towards a democracy" in Libya http://bit.ly/dZjz6Q #Libya

I've been too busy lately to update the OP regularly, but I've made a few changes today and added a link to Brown Moses' posts.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:33

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

quote:

Apparently Amr Moussa was part of the regime's plan to "stop" the revolution, he was gonna be on a faux "presidential council" with other popular media and sports figures..wow..

Waitwaitwaitwhaaaaa...?

What's this about media/sports figures getting tapped, and was Moussa in on this? Unless you're talking about whatever formal civilian executive authority there is right now...

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:35

DrLaserfalcon: Nov 7, 2010

There's an absolute full-fledged civil war in Libya now...

http://www.frequency.com/video/gadhafis-forces-bombard-besieged-zawiya/3115539

Short of deposing Qadhafi, it looks like the situation will continue to spiral out of control.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 01:37

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Chortles posted:

Waitwaitwaitwhaaaaa...?

What's this about media/sports figures getting tapped, and was Moussa in on this? Unless you're talking about whatever formal civilian executive authority there is right now...

Just as I posted, Amr Moussa was gonna be part of it. In fact after Mubarak's second speech he went down to Tahrir Square to tell protesters "It's over he'll do it, go home" which was apparently the part of the government's plan.

Most of these are letters/reports to higher authorities. Here's a summary of what I've read so far:

#1 - After the 2005 parliamentary elections which the MB gained a lot in (over 70 seats), the security apparatus was open to the formation of new left-leaning liberal parties to combat the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood in certain towns.

#2- Another one asks that the demands of factory workers be met.

#3- In another they talk about providing the utmost protection for their stealth e-mail hacking operations and tools by preventing inexperienced officers from using them to hack personal accounts.

#4- In this one they request check-ups on the political leanings of 23 people a local oil-refinery wants to hire and wether the ministery approves or not.

#5- About Niqab: "Encouraging college deans, student union leaders etc to disallow women wearing niqab from living in student residences in an effort to combat the spread of this extremist outfit"

About college students in general: "Investing the efforts of moderate elements (silent majority) (of students) and encouraging them to participate in a political fabric representing moderate, enlightened values far from confrontational political ideas that are held by a small portion of students; we do this by inviting these students into our "College Families" that we've already created in universities."

"Preventing any and all politically active students from residing in government provided student dorms"

#6- Here's one for Americans: During the last population census, the security apparatus requested a "limited" amount of fake census IDs worn by the census workers who went to every home in Egypt in order to use them to spy on suspects etc.

#7- In another, they talk about a phone line they tapped belonging to an official in "Ghad Party".

# ? Mar 6, 2011 02:02

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Ham posted:

Just as I posted, Amr Moussa was gonna be part of it. In fact after Mubarak's second speech he went down to Tahrir Square to tell protesters "It's over he'll do it, go home" which was apparently the part of the government's plan.

So was he on the government's side all along, or was he just predictable enough that they used/tricked him?

# ? Mar 6, 2011 02:26

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

I found a really dry, really technical article about Sudan if you'd care to read it. I'll quote a little of it here:

quote:

1. The Current Situation

Sudan is sliding towards violent breakup. The main mechanisms to end conflicts between the central government and the peripheries � the Comprehensive Peace Agreement (CPA), the Darfur Peace Agreement and the East Sudan Peace Agreement � all suffer from lack of implementation, largely due to the intransigence of the National Congress Party (NCP). Less than thirteen months remain to ensure that national elections in 2010 and the South Sudan self-determination referendum in 2011 lead to democratic transformation and resolution of all the country�s conflicts. Unless the international community, notably the U.S., the UN, the African Union (AU) Peace and Security Council and the Horn of Africa Inter-Government Authority on Development (IGAD), cooperate to support both CPA implementation and vital additional negotiations, return to North-South war and escalation of conflict in Darfur are likely.

Since 2005, such political goodwill as the NCP and the SPLM may have had to implement the CPA when they signed it on 9 January 2005 has dwindled, if not totally vanished. The NCP has not created an environment for peaceful democratic transformation throughout Sudan and has in effect done everything possible to discourage SPLM interest in what happens outside the South. As a result, the GNU is no longer a partnership. The SPLM has given up on reform of the center, and its leader Salva Kiir in October 2010 for the first time openly called for Southern secession. The little remaining collaboration is tactical, focused on those CPA elements that protect each party�s own interests.

Several key provisions of the CPA remain unimplemented as the NCP has continued to use its national assembly majority to obstruct both the South�s secession and meaningful political reforms in the North. Important provisions on power and wealth sharing, resolution of the conflicts in Southern Kordofan, Blue Nile and Abyei, organisation of free and fair elections and security arrangements have not been implemented.

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/key-issues/preventing-implosion-in-sudan.aspx

I'm probably the one who really needs to read it so I can understand what's really going on in Sudan, but I got through Section 1 and my eyesight got all blurry and the letters started to swim around, so I'll read it later when I'm less tired :shobon:

SO. MANY. ACRONYMS!!! I stink at acronyms. :smith:

and a little more on the revolution-that-isn't-happening:

quote:

China state media warn against protest calls in capital

BEIJING (Reuters) � China told its people on Saturday not to heed calls to emulate protests that have rocked the Middle East, warning that any threats to Communist Party-led stability could bring �disaster.�

This was the government's most public warning yet against calls for Middle East-inspired pro-democracy protests that have spread from an overseas Chinese website, triggering tighter censorship, intense security in Beijing and new restrictions on foreign reporters.

The commentary in the Beijing Daily newspaper, a Communist Party mouthpiece, signaled that China's security crackdown would not let up.

�Everyone knows that stability is a blessing and chaos is a calamity,� said the newspaper, which is the mouthpiece of the Communist Party administration for China's capital.

The warning came on the same day as the opening of China's annual parliament in the capital, where Premier Wen Jiabao warned that inflation could corrode social stability.

Police smothered any weekend protests before they had a chance of forming, and some foreign reporters who went to the scene of the would-be gathering on the Wangfujing shopping street in downtown Beijing were beaten up.

But the commentary told citizens to beware. Hard-won order was at stake, it said.

Uprisings across the Middle East have toppled authoritarian governments in Tunisia and Egypt and now threaten to Muammar Gaddafi, the long-time strongman of Libya.

�This turmoil has brought a massive calamity to the people of these countries,� said the newspaper in the commentary which was widely repeated on many Chinese state media websites.

�It is worth noting that at home and abroad some people with ulterior motives are trying to draw this chaos into China. They have used the Internet to incite illegal gatherings,� it said.

�There are always some people at home and abroad who want to exploit the problems existing in our development to provoke trouble,� it added, urging citizens to �conscientiously protect harmony and stability.�

The protest calls in China have little chance of taking off.

Beijing has mobilized 739,000 police officers, officials, security guards and residents recruited into local patrols to guard against mishaps during the parliament, reported the official China News Service.

Police have rounded up dozens of dissidents since online messages from abroad urged pro-democracy gatherings inspired by the �Jasmine Revolution� in Tunisia. Internet censorship also means that few Chinese residents are aware of the protest calls.

Chinese police have threatened to revoke the visas of dozens of foreign journalists if they continue �illegal� reporting from sites where overseas websites have called for anti-government demonstrations.

�Those people intent on concocting and finding Middle East-style news in China will find their plans come to nothing,� said the Beijing Daily commentary.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=236885&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I take this to mean that "We will make Gaddahfi look like Ghandi if you even think about it" :argh:

I am hearing persistent "chatter" that the dissidents that have been rounded up have nothing to do with the mysterious calls to protest, and that the calls are coming from outside of China. Of course I can't confirm anything that I've heard that I term as "chatter". It's as useful as barroom gossip or tabloid news; some of it is undoubtedly true, a lot of it is false, there's no way to tell the difference between the two, and in this case, some of it could very well be purposeful disinformation. The one thing that all of the chatter seems to agree upon is that the dissidents that are being rounded up in China right now have nothing to do with the situation and are entirely innocent.

At the top of a "retrospective" type article that I didn't bother to read was this fantastic picture:

I found it here:

http://www.srilankaguardian.org/2011/03/palestine-and-revolution.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

It may be a good article, it may be bad, I don't know, I'm not bothering to read opinion pieces that attempt to tie all the events in the Arab world together and apply the examples to countries that are not in open revolt right now. The piece is supposed to be about Palestine, but since it didn't get around to even mentioning Palestine in the first 5 paragraphs, I decided that it was beating around the bush too much for my liking. I want news right now, not opinion.

I fear that this poor guy's family is dead:

quote:

By Rebecca Lefort 9:00PM GMT 05 Mar 2011
Ahmed Sewehli, a NHS psychiatrist in Manchester, said his father Abdurrahman and three of his brothers Khaleel, Mohammed, and Shtewi were arrested in Tripoli last week by armed security agents.
The raids came shortly after they had had urged Libyans to join anti-regime demonstrations. Khaleel, 31, had given a telephone interview ten days ago to BBC Radio Five, saying Gaddafi should go if Libyans demanded it.
�I�m trying not to think about what is happening to them if they are alive, and I don�t want to think about them being dead,� Dr Sewehli, 36, told The Sunday Telegraph.
�I promised my father I would continue speaking out, and that is what I will do. I hope he will be proud.�
Dr Sewehli�s father, who is 65, went to college with Col Gaddafi in his home town of Misurata, but had since become one of his staunchest critics. During the recent unrest he became a figurehead for the Libyan rebels, regularly appearing on Al Jazeera and Western television networks to denounce his former classmate.

Last Monday, however, Dr Sewehli got a call from his father saying that Khaleel, who studied mobile communications at Lancaster University and was working for a telecoms company in Tripoli, and Mohammed, 19, a first year medical student at Tripoli University, had been taken by Gaddafi�s men, along with a friend whose house they had been staying at.
Security forces then called at the family home and arrested their father and Shtewi, 25, as well, ransacking the place in the process.
�A female relative later went past the home, she saw mercenaries, two big cars and troops,� said Dr Sewehli. �The next day my mother went back and she said it had been destroyed.�
Dr Sewehli, a father of four young children, said he was convinced that Col Gaddafi�s security services were now bugging his phone calls.
�A few weeks ago we were just a normal family,� he added. �I consider my brothers to be the average men on the street in Libya. When people say rebels it sounds like insurgents, but in reality it just means anyone who is protesting and trying to make a difference.�

There's more to this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor..._medium=twitter

Like he said, I don't like to think that they're dead, but I don't want to think about what they're going through if they're alive. If you're a praying sort of person, you might want to pray for them.

Algerian security manages to squelch protest pretty quickly, but the Algerian people aren't giving up so easily:

(translated from Arabic by Google Chrome)

quote:

Bouteflika's supporters of disrupting an opposition demonstration in the capital and strengthen the police presence
Algerian opposition met with great difficulty to organize three marches in Algiers on Saturday after it was supporters of President Abdelaziz Bouteflika, and the security men who worked to disperse the groups.
France 24 (Video)
AFP (text)

Algerian police prevented three rallies called by the opposition in the capital of Algeria in order to change the system, the demonstrators found themselves trapped with the security forces and supporters of the Authority, according to AFP correspondents.

He called for a wing of the National Coordination for Democracy and Change supporters for Saturday night in three marches in the capital, united in the decision to ban rallies.

But dozens of protesters who have answered the call and found themselves trapped by the police, while his supporters of one of the arenas of power, according to the correspondent of Agence France Presse.

And carry about fifty supporters of the power picture, Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika and the fireworks they set it off in front of dozens of opponents of the regime who were deployed quickly among the curious.

Amid shouts of "Mubarak, Bouteflika is" able to prevent supporters of the power of the arrival of a car by Said Sadi, a leader of the National Coordination of change and democracy to the yard, "the first of July" (the first of July) in the heart of the district civil.

http://www.france24.com/ar/20110305...lgiers&ns_fee=0 <---This is in Arabic btw

~*BIG BUT INTERESTING DERAIL ABOUT TRANSLATIONS AHEAD, READ IF YOU WANT*~

A friend of mine from Syria explained to me that there are a number of reason why Google Chrome screws up the translations of Arabic and (even worse) Persian.

First, there are so many dialects of Arabic that without the aid of television, he would never have been able to understand the Arabic that is spoken in Egypt when compared to the Arabic that is spoken in Syria---they're that different. However, Egypt makes a lot of movies and produces a lot of Arabic music (the best Arabic singers are Egyptian, he said) so the Egyptian dialect of Arabic has spread with the accessibility of televisions and radios.

Second, he said that translation programs usually operate under a single set of rules, so that they're unable to translate as well for languages that don't follow those rules. Translation programs like Google Translate seem to work best with romance languages like French, Italian, and Spanish, and work best of all with English because English is one of the most popular languages. Google isn't in that big a hurry to fine-tune their translation services to deal with Arabic and Persian better, because Arabic is less popular, so it's probably low on their list of priorities. He told me an anecdote about Syrian immigrants trying to pass their written driving tests at the DMV in Michigan. Everyone who asked for their test in Arabic failed, and everyone who took the plunge and asked for it in English passed. The reason was that the translated tests were translated by machine, not human, and the text was so garbled by the translation program that some of the questions were flat out non-sequiturs in Arabic. They had a better chance of passing if they just guessed what some of the English words meant.

Third, he said that Persian uses the same characters as Arabic, but doesn't use the same words or the same grammar rules. He doesn't speak fluent Persian but knows enough of it and has spoken to enough Persians that he says the translation programs often attempt to use Arabic grammar on Persian sentences or sometimes substitutes Arabic words in the middle of the text. He said that the same word with the same spelling may mean different things in Arabic and Persian; as an analogy, "pants" may mean "clothing for your lower body" in the US and it might mean "Birds that fly south for the winter" in Canada, but it's spelled "pants" in both places.

He then pointed out that when we met about ten years ago, free translations weren't available to me at all and I should stop my over-privileged American whining and just be grateful that I can understand anything, especially for free. I reminded him that as a natural born citizen of the United States that whining was a genetic defect that I really couldn't help and he should give me a break. He then kindly offered to translate anything important that may come up from Arabic to English, and I thanked him but politely declined, because I know he's too busy running his liquor empire to dick around with translating protest videos.

This is someone who started out barely speaking English and working as a counter clerk at someone else's liquor store to someone who reads and writes English pretty well and owns one store and has a partial interest in another. I'm greatly impressed with this man, since he started with far less and now has far more than I do. Always treat people with respect, kindness, and interest no matter what their station in society is, because you'll never know how good a friend they can be if you don't try talking to them first.

~*END GIANT DERAIL ABOUT TRANSLATIONS*~

# ? Mar 6, 2011 02:27

The Cheshire Cat: Jun 10, 2008; Fun Shoe

Brown Moses posted:

#AmnDawla is going to be busy tonight. Lot's being posted on the Facebook page too.

From the basement of the security HQ:

The shredding room, seems to have been interupted midshred:

State Security files. Each file is an individual person:

Flickr account with 75 scans of leaked documents, sadly all in Arabic. (zipped)

Youtube video of people wandering around the former home of the ex Interior Minister.

It always amazes me how people can KEEP that many records. I mean is there seriously that much intelligence of value?

# ? Mar 6, 2011 02:29

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

The Cheshire Cat posted:

It always amazes me how people can KEEP that many records. I mean is there seriously that much intelligence of value?

When you're spying on your entire country, the documents add up.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 02:32

MJ_Turbo: Oct 15, 2005; da fuq?

I'm more amazed that local people feel confident enough to just stroll in there and take a look around, I understand it's abandoned but if the police or whatever come back they're hosed

# ? Mar 6, 2011 03:37

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Maybe you missed the revolution but the secret police are either lying low/distancing themselves from Mubarak's govt, or disbanded. They've lost their HQs around Egypt and all their intel, and they've lost their leadership so I doubt there is much direction for them, unless it's in the military.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 03:40

ChubbyEmoBabe: Sep 6, 2003; -=|NMN|=-

So Mubarak stuck around and held things together just long enough for the incriminating evidence to be destroyed?

That makes a lot of sense.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 03:44

whoflungpoop: Sep 9, 2004; With you and the constellations

MJ_Turbo posted:

I'm more amazed that local people feel confident enough to just stroll in there and take a look around, I understand it's abandoned but if the police or whatever come back they're hosed

It wasn't abandoned at first. The public came in and the military intervened to helpfully escort the remaining security police out :downs:

State Security members arrested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT4aLc_iPyg

# ? Mar 6, 2011 03:52

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Apology posted:

~*BIG BUT INTERESTING DERAIL ABOUT TRANSLATIONS AHEAD, READ IF YOU WANT*~

~*END GIANT DERAIL ABOUT TRANSLATIONS*~

Dialect differences wouldn't really factor into text translation, since people only ever write in the formal dialect (you sometimes see local dialects being written down in works of fiction or on like, social networking sites, but never in news outlets). It's also significant that vowels aren't typically written in Arabic, so you can have several words that look identical on the page but have different meanings � the word for "scholar" and for "world" are both written عالم, for example, though they're pronounced differently � so this requires an ability to analyze context, which is complicated.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 04:10

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Apology posted:

I found a really dry, really technical article about Sudan if you'd care to read it. I'll quote a little of it here:

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/key-issues/preventing-implosion-in-sudan.aspx

I'm probably the one who really needs to read it so I can understand what's really going on in Sudan, but I got through Section 1 and my eyesight got all blurry and the letters started to swim around, so I'll read it later when I'm less tired SO. MANY. ACRONYMS!!! I stink at acronyms.

Heads up, but that article is a year old. Southern seceded after 99% of the population voted for it. It's its own country now. There is a rogue general still killing a few people though.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 04:17

LITERALLY MAD IRL: Oct 30, 2008; And Malcolm Gladwell likes what he hears!

Shageletic posted:

Heads up, but that article is a year old. Southern seceded after 99% of the population voted for it. It's its own country now. There is a rogue general still killing a few people though.

It has voted to secede but it won't declare independence until July.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 04:20

Mad Doctor Cthulhu: Mar 3, 2008

The Cheshire Cat posted:

It always amazes me how people can KEEP that many records. I mean is there seriously that much intelligence of value?

Probably not much. I doubt every college kid really has that much to really go on outside of some wild conjecture. That's the problem with totalitarian states: they're paranoid to an extent that borders on insanity. The only thing that gives it an official air is how bureaucracy masks and confuses the issue. All those files represent one man's lust for power and the lengths he would go through to make it look like he's in power. It's pretty sad.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 05:21

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Shageletic posted:

Heads up, but that article is a year old. Southern seceded after 99% of the population voted for it. It's its own country now. There is a rogue general still killing a few people though.

I was looking for something a little older because all the recent articles make it sound like another pro-democracy vs. dictatorial government fight, and it's a bit more complicated than that.

The South hasn't quite finished seceding yet, from what I understand. The current fighting might delay the split into two different countries as well, since it doesn't look like Al-Bashir has complete control over the country presently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Sudan

Oh my, isn't this interesting:

quote:

Libyan rebels reportedly capture British special forces troops
Mar 6, 2011, 4:39 GMT
London - Eight British special forces commandos were captured by rebel forces in eastern Libya, the Sunday Times reported.
The paper said the soldiers were escorting a junior British diplomat through rebel-held territory who was hoping to make contact with the insurgent forces. The government refused to comment.
'We neither confirm nor deny the story and we do not comment on the special forces,' a Ministry of Defence statement said.
A Geneva-based human rights group also said it was aware that a team of special forces troops had been seized by Libyan rebels, but was unaware of their nationality.
The Times report said the rebels took the captive SAS soldiers to Benghazi, the largest city held by the opposition, where they being held.
The UK Press Association said the SAS intervention had angered some Libyan opposition leaders.
Heavy fighting was reported in the city of Zawiya, 80 kilometres from the capital Tripoli, as rebels struggled to hold back troops loyal to Libyan strongman leader Moamer Gaddafi.
Insurgents were reported to have taken control of the strategic oil port of Ras Lanuf after days of pitched battles with government forces.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/uk/news/article_1623932.php/Libyan-rebels-reportedly-capture-British-special-forces-troops

Not so special any more, are ya :smug:

This turned out to be much more successful than Hands Across America. Regardez Hands Around Manama:

quote:

Shiite protesters form human chain around Bahrain's capital

Associated Press
In Print: Sunday, March 6, 2011

MANAMA, Bahrain � Thousands of Shiite protesters in Bahrain formed a human chain around the capital on Saturday as their campaign to loosen the Sunni monarchy's grip on power in the strategic Persian Gulf nation enters its third week.

Tensions have been high in Bahrain, the host of the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, since a street battle between Sunnis and Shiites on Thursday left at least a dozen people injured.

No police were in sight as protesters � men and women � held hands to encircle Manama, where Bahrain's Shiite majority has been leading daily demonstrations to end what they say are discriminatory policies and political persecution.

Seven protesters have been killed since Bahrain's Shiites took their grievances to the streets, rattling one of the wealthiest corners of the Middle East, where it was long assumed that oil riches would stave off the kind of unrest that has roiled Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen and Libya.

Bahrain's sectarian division, however, left it vulnerable.

The island's security forces have been on high alert after Thursday's clash between Sunnis and the majority Shiites leading antigovernment protests, centered at Manama's Pearl Square.

http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/sh..._medium=twitter

Israel is at it again:

quote:

Middle East
Israeli warplanes raid Gaza
Raids on northern and central Gaza Strip as well as Gaza City cause damages but no injuries.
Last Modified: 06 Mar 2011 02:03 GMT

Israeli warplanes have launched a series of air raids on Gaza City, medics and witnesses have said.

Saturday's airstrikes were carried out on different targets in northern and central Gaza Strip as well as in Gaza City.

Adham Abu Selmeya, Gaza emergency chief, told reporters that no injuries were reported. The explosions kept the population awake.

Three of the raids targetted bases of the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

These attacks caused significant damage both to the targets and to neighbouring houses. Two other raids targetted the north and south of the city.

An Israeli army statement said it had carried out three air raids, and two had targeted "terrorist targets" in the central Gaza Strip.

A third had been on a tunnel intended for armed raids into Israel or operations against army positions along the border with the Gaza Strip, the statement said.

The army said the raids had come after a rocket was fired on Saturday from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel.

"This morning a rocket fired from Gaza fell in the western sector of the Negev [desert in southern Israel], without causing any casualties or damage," an army spokeswoman said earlier.

The attacks have continued despite calls by Hamas for armed groups to respect a truce with Israel.

http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2011/03/20113613338552670.html

It seems like Gaza is perpetually bringing a dull pocket knife to a WMD fight. At this point, I don't even believe that there was any rocket fired from Gaza, I think that the Israelis wanted to bomb Gaza, so they bombed first and claimed there was a rocket afterwards. It was probably started by a car backfiring outside Israeli Army headquarters.

Terse but surprising:

quote:

BEIJING - China's spending on police and domestic surveillance will hit new heights this year, with "public security" outlays unveiled on Saturday outstripping the defence budget for the first time as Beijing cracks down on protest calls.

http://www.forexyard.com/en/news/Re..._medium=twitter

Imagine that the United States had a second military that cost a little more than the $663.8bn that was budgeted for the regular military in 2010. Now imagine that all that military did was suppress the right to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom to assemble, and freedom of religion.

Okay I said I wasn't going to read opinion pieces that compared the Middle East protests to other nations that aren't protesting now, but this one caught my attention more than the rest for some reason. Maybe it's due to its biting wit in some places and its tragic facts in others. I've bolded some of the saddest and funniest parts:

quote:

Arab spring in South Asia?

Aijaz Zaka Syed
Sunday, March 06, 2011

The Arab spring continues to wow the world. If it has the corrupt and powerful everywhere terrified out of their wits, it also has revived the long repressed spirit of the oppressed, far beyond the greater Middle East.

Until the beginning of this year, few in the distant lands of America, India, China and the Far East would have heard of Hosni Mubarak or confidently pick out Tunis on the world map. All that has changed. Forever. The Tunisian-Egyptian burst of hope has not just given birth to a magical season of change across the Arab world, it�s inspiring imitation elsewhere.

All this must come as a wake-up call to those asleep at the wheel everywhere. Apparently, what happens and goes around the other side of the globe comes around sooner or later to catch up with your reality wherever you are. So at the height of the Tahrir Square excitement, it was curiously uplifting to hear a fellow Indian demand an �Arab revolution in India� on the BBC Hindi�s India Bol (Speak up India) program. At first it sounded rather absurd. An Egypt-style people�s revolt in India? Nah!

After all, India is not a rotting, decaying Arab police state where leaders come to stay and rule forever. We are a vibrant and thriving democracy � the world�s largest and most colourful. Comparisons with the Middle East are therefore odious. But are they really?

The young and restless who drove Ben Ali and Mubarak out of their once impregnable fortresses were not just protesting their long years of absolute power. Those demonstrations were also a call to arms against the corruption and nepotism, against injustice and inequality, and against the abuse of power and misrule that characterised the so-called Arab republics all these years. They were a protest against incompetence, red tape and poverty and against all the missed opportunities that have stultified and sapped the youth and stolen their promise and hope. Sounds familiar?

India is an amazing democracy of which we are justifiably proud. But the ills plaguing stagnant Arab societies have also been gnawing at the vitals of Indian society for so long that we do not even pay attention to them anymore. In fact, this is not just confined to India. It�s the same story all over South Asia.

From India and Pakistan to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, politics is the same all over the subcontinent. Widespread and institutionalised plundering of state resources by politicians is the order of the day. While the rich get richer and our mediocre politicians turn billionaires in office in no time, for ordinary people it�s a daily grind, a constant battle to survive the crushing poverty. Dynastic politics is another feature that is common between the Arab republics and South Asia.

Take a look. There are so many Gamal Mubaraks around. In fact, dynastic succession has become so de rigueur in South Asian politics that no eyebrows are raised when the government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has to jump through hoops to accommodate the whims and fancies of every son and daughter of ally and Tamil Nadu chief minister M Karunanidhi.

Sonia and Rahul Gandhi are the only smiling � and not so bad � faces of the dynastic politics. And yes Rahul is yet to take charge. India has seen worse � in Rahul�s uncle Sanjay Gandhi. In fact, the son rises in every political party in the subcontinent and almost every politician in this Turkish bath is without a stitch on.

Like much of the Arab world, criminal mismanagement of resources, red tape and crony capitalism � or socialism in some cases � have ensured that even as we trumpet our fabled economic progress into the 21st century, much of our population survives on less than $2 dollar a day.

Last year, the Indians � and the world � were shocked when a UN global poverty index devised by the Oxford University discovered there are more poor people in eight Indian states than in the 26 nations of sub-Saharan Africa put together. India ranked 63rd, just after Togo, and before Haiti.

A staggering 410 million people, far more than the population of the United States, in the country seen as one of the two emerging superpowers live in extreme poverty. The economic liberalisation of the 1990s and selective prosperity that followed has only deepened the socio-economic inequalities. No wonder India is home to a violent Marxist insurgency, biggest in the world, that The New York Times some time back described as being a bigger threat to India�s security than international terrorism.

Things are a little different in the rest of South Asia. All-pervasive corruption, extreme economic inequalities, a breakdown of institutions and denial of basics like food, water, healthcare and education etc., have been the bane of the entire region.

While India has been rocked by some of the biggest corruption scandals in history in the past few years, under Mr Clean Dr Singh of course, with Mr Ten Per cent taking over the reins of the Islamic Republic next door, the culture of sleaze has acquired a new meaning and taken to a new level altogether.

So there�s every possibility and compelling need for an Arab spring in South Asia. Especially when like those marching on the Arab street, India and Pakistan are home to a large young population that is getting increasingly impatient for change. The young are not just restless; they are also informed and know their rights. And they know how to use the power of new technology and new social tools to get what they want. Having seen the Net magic in action in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and elsewhere, it wouldn�t be long before they decide to take charge of their destiny. Especially, when their leaders are so incompetent and clueless.

Given the average age of politicians in our part of the world, is it any wonder they are so hopelessly out of touch with the reality of the 21st century and its young? If anyone watched Manmohan Singh�s recent press conference on national TV would know what I am talking about. I felt almost sorry for Dr Singh as he pathetically pottered his way around the carefully chosen questions posed by carefully chosen journalists. Here�s a man who is not just resting on his laurels but he has gone to sleep on them.

And it�s not just the prime minister. Every political party on the left, right, and centre boasts leaders who belong in retirement homes. It�s even worse when it comes to regional players. Most political parties have ended up as personal fiefdoms of their leaders. Power is family business and remains in the family.

Karunanidhi, the permanently wheelchair-bound Tamil Nadu CM, cannot move an inch without the help of his family and aides but cling on he must to his chair. Surely, a nation of a billion plus people deserves better. So does Pakistan and so do other nations in the region. This is why, given the bankruptcy of politics in the region, don�t be surprised if we see an Arab spring in South Asia soon. Possibilities for a brave new world are endless.

The writer is based in Dubai and has written extensively on the Middle East and South Asia. Email: aijaz.syed@hotmail. com

Guy's on a roll :rimshot:

And today's Ivory Coast news:

quote:

UN experts are investigating suspected sanctions-busting arms deliveries from Zimbabwe to Ivory Coast strongman Laurent Gbagbo, according to a UN report.
UN investigators are looking into "the arrival of light weapons cargoes from Zimbabwe" in December, said the report which has been handed over as clashes mount between followers of Gbabgo and internationally recognized president Alassane Ouattara.

The UN Security Council warned again this week of sanctions against any side in Ivory Coast who breaks an arms embargo imposed in 2004 when the country was torn apart by civil war.

The investigation focuses on four aircraft which landed at San Pedro airport in southern Ivory Coast, in territory controlled by Gbagbo's forces, between December 17-21.

The planes arrived from Angola, Cape Verde and Sao Tome and Principe, according to the report, a copy of which was obtained by AFP.

Investigators are also looking into a shipment of 10 large wooden crates "which may contain trucks or tanks." The report said the consignment has been at Abidjan port for six months under "24/7" military surveillance.

They're still trying to figure out where the hell Ivory Coast is getting arms. I'm kind of confused about the suspicion that it's from Zimbabwe, though, since Zimbabwe is under an EU arms embargo. I suppose Zimbabwe could still be buying arms from the US, and then reselling them to Ivory Coast? It's all so convoluted it's making my head spin.

Al Jazeera has received footage of the attack on the women's protest in Abobo on Tuesday that killed six women:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7opSZsLpY

Please note that the government has claimed that they had no military activities in Abobo on Tuesday, yet in the video you can clearly see a large armored vehicle cruising by after the shots were fired. This video makes me sad because the women seemed so peaceful and happy just before the shots rang out.

The UN is sending in reinforcements:

quote:

Baku-APA. U.N. peacekeepers in Ivory Coast will be reinforced by 2,000 soldiers and have received two combat helicopters to face worsening violence between rival political factions, a U.N. official said, APA reports quoting news.yahoo.com website.
The 8,000-strong United Nations force is trying to keep a stand-off between rival presidential claimants Laurent Gbagbo and Alassane Ouattara from tipping into a civil war, as clashes between factions loyal to each side grow increasingly violent.
Some 800 peacekeepers are stationed around a hotel in Abidjan where Ouattara, widely recognized as the winner of an election last year, has been holed up for three months hoping that economic sanctions will weaken Gbagbo�s grip on power.
"What we are seeing is clearly an escalation of violence," Choi Young-jin, a U.N. representative in Abidjan, told the Liberation newspaper in an interview published on Saturday.

http://www.en.apa.az/news.php?id=142249

Power has been restored to the rebel-held north of Ivory Coast:

quote:

Power, water back in Ivory Coast's rebel north
By Reuters

BOUAKE, Ivory Coast (Reuters) - Power and water returned to Ivory Coast's northern rebel-held zones Saturday, after being cut for a week during clashes between forces backing incumbent president Laurent Gbabgo and his northern rival.

A Reuters witness said power had resumed in the main rebel-held city of Bouake.

Other people said service had come back to towns along the northern half of the country, which supports Gbagbo's rival Alassane Ouattara and has been controlled by rebels since a 2002-3 war, but depends on the south for its electricity.

A dispute between Gbagbo and Ouattara over a presidential poll, which results show Ouattara won but which the incumbent has refused to concede, has escalated into armed conflict in the main city Abidjan and along the north-south ceasefire line.

Fighting has eased in the past few days.

African leaders had been due to arrive in the world's top cocoa grower to propose a solution to the standoff, but called it off Friday.

They instead invited Ouattara and Gbagbo to the next African Union summit, where a solution to the crisis would be proposed. Expectations for success are not high.

The United Nations has said more than 365 people have been killed and hundreds of thousands have been displaced since the poll, including 200,000 who left Abidjan's Abobo suburb during fighting last week.

International cocoa futures regularly have been breaking new 32-year highs on supply fears due to the violence.

Gbagbo's government did not officially comment on the power cuts to the north, but his troops seized the electric distribution company last month and a U.N. source said they had ordered power to be cut to the north during the fighting.

Running water was cut because the pumps are electric.

(Editing by Michael Roddy)

(c) Copyright Thomson Reuters 2011. Check for restrictions at: http://about.reuters.com/fulllegal.asp

http://www.theusdaily.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=1387572

No electricity, no refrigeration, no clean clothes, no television, no sanitation, no water, and NO INTERNET for a solid week...just picture that in your mind for a minute or two.

Apology fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 05:45

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Why would the Brits send a "junior diplomat"?

# ? Mar 6, 2011 06:58

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Koine posted:

Why would the Brits send a "junior diplomat"?

Because what they really need is someone on the ground to put them in contact with the decision making process, not someone to negotiate for the British government.

It's an amusing story but it sounds more like the special forces wouldn't want to open fire, but the rebels can hardly confirm the bona fides of some westerner with a heavily armed bodyguard. I'm sure the brits wouldn't want it specifically known, but it was clearly a risk sending a diplomatic envoy into an incredibly unstable situation.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 07:18

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 10:51

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Koine posted:

Why would the Brits send a "junior diplomat"?

Maybe they didn't want to send anyone who wasn't somewhat expendable? I'm just guessing though.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 07:41

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

«‹›3125 »