Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

"Apology"[url posted:

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/uk/news/article_1623932.php/Libyan-rebels-reportedly-capture-British-special-forces-troops[/url]

Not so special any more, are ya

"Captured" is what they want you to think :smug:

But yeah, all of the above explanations sounds plausible -- have someone (not too senior) on the ground to have in-person contact with the opposition, but give him a bodyguard detail in case something goes down... even if it's "just" a pro-Gaddafi-forces attack.

Oddly, I wouldn't be surprised if the "capture" was because the rebels couldn't be sure just at first glance (read: them being Brits) that these weren't mercenaries in disguise for the regime -- remember the "Arab media" reports that some of the anti-rebel bombing runs were by Serbian pilots.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 08:10

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# ? May 22, 2024 01:34

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

State TV is in full bullshit mode:

quote:

State TV says that forces loyal to Gaddafi have recaptured the third city of Misurata and the oil town of Ras Lanuf taken by rebels on Friday.

But Sadoun Misrata, speaking live to Al Jazeera from Misurata says that there is absolutely no truth to those claims.

He said that the army in Misurata has sided with the people, but the only concern at the moment was the kidnapping of opposition members by Gaddafi loyalists.

quote:

Libyan state TV now showing scenes of crowds celebrating in Tripoli's Green Square and repeating claims that Az Zawiyah, Misurata and Tobruk have all been recaptured by Gaddafi's forces.

However, rebel groups say that they are still in control of these areas.

quote:

AFP correspondent reports that Ras Lanuf was still in the control of rebels, countering claims by Libya state TV that it had been recaptured after its loss on Friday.

A number of foreign journalists were staying in a hotel on the western outskirts of Ras Lanuf and there were no sounds of any fighting around the town during the night.

quote:

Mohammed Ali, speaks live to Al Jazeera from Misurata. He is a member of the civil committee for Misurata affairs, part of the National Council run by anti-Gaddafi protesters. He says that they are firmly in control of the city and are prepared for any attack by Gaddafi's forces.

And more on the road to Sitre:

quote:

Bashir Abudl Gadir, a rebel commander in east Libya, says that his forces had pushed westwards and now controlled the town of al-Nawfaliyah.

The town of al-Nawfaliyah is west of Bin Jawad, which rebels took on Saturday.

Ham, I'd love to hear more about those documents. You don't know of anywhere that's posting details in English do you?

# ? Mar 6, 2011 09:51

married but discreet: May 7, 2005; Taco Defender

Koine posted:

Why would the Brits send a "junior diplomat"?

"Junior diplomat" sounds suspiciously like intelligence service agent.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 10:11

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

"Junior diplomat" sounds suspiciously like intelligence service agent.

Also a reasonable suspicion. Whomever they sent you'd want them to be able to decide if the nominal governing body in Benghazi had actual authority outside the city.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 10:15

Creepy Goat: Sep 19, 2010

IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

"Junior diplomat" sounds suspiciously like intelligence service agent.

It's also somewhat likely that members of the SAS unit accompanying the 'diplomat' are there to advise and assist the rebel leaders in their strategy and organisation.

Obviously this was intended to be very low-profile, for the good of both the rebels and the British government, but looks like whoever blew the whistle and alerted the media hosed up a very good oppurtunity to make substantial ground for the rebellion.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 11:21

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

farraday posted:

Also a reasonable suspicion. Whomever they sent you'd want them to be able to decide if the nominal governing body in Benghazi had actual authority outside the city.

And therefore, "if this nominal governing body formally requests international airstrikes, do they speak for any of the wider Libyan rebellion?" Very relevant.

Creepy Goat posted:

Obviously this was intended to be very low-profile, for the good of both the rebels and the British government, but looks like whoever blew the whistle and alerted the media hosed up a very good oppurtunity to make substantial ground for the rebellion.

Reminds me of the Drudge Report and "Prince Harry in Afghanistan," whereas the British media hadn't mentioned it or at least didn't draw attention to it; incidentally, back then I understand that his personal security detachment (PSD) was SAS as well (which should really surprise no one).

Why there's a fuckup in revealing this -- gives even barebones credibility to Gaddafi's claims about foreign meddling (so "captured by the rebels" could be a cover story), and who knows if that the "military advisors" role is even doable.

Hopefully-fortunately, I expect this story to get very little play in America because it's not involving Americans, and even less play in the United Kingdom for obvious reasons.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 11:58

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Creepy Goat posted:

It's also somewhat likely that members of the SAS unit accompanying the 'diplomat' are there to advise and assist the rebel leaders in their strategy and organisation.

I think you may be reading too much into this. What you're saying would be a big step toward interference in the war, and I doubt that Cameron would have the balls required to make a decision like that on his own, in the secret. And if it was known by a wider circle (the whole cabinet - the lower house - strategic allies), it would have been in the headlines already.

There still are lots of foreign civilians trapped in the country, so the primary mission of the entourage may have been to discuss the evacuation of those, as well as other humanitarian matters, with the rebel council. As the situation is chaotic and hard to predict, no diplomat would go in there without some bodyguards. Then there would be secondary goals of finding information about the strategic, political and other situations. But a lot of that sort of information can also be obtained by agents travelling under false identities, like a news crew.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 12:42

Brainwrong: Mar 20, 2004; RIP Bobby K
Poland's Rose. Like a cabbage in the wind.

I eagerly await the book written by one of the SAS members who has been captured. It's been years since Bravo Two Zero so we're long overdue another "Ex-SAS shocking truth exclusive"

# ? Mar 6, 2011 13:18

lil sartre: Feb 12, 2009; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Apology posted:

I was looking for something a little older because all the recent articles make it sound like another pro-democracy vs. dictatorial government fight, and it's a bit more complicated than that.

The South hasn't quite finished seceding yet, from what I understand. The current fighting might delay the split into two different countries as well, since it doesn't look like Al-Bashir has complete control over the country presently.

If you want to know more about the history of Sudan and how/why the South became independent, check out this very good Al Jazeera documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7okF15IeSXE&hd=1

One interesting thing that isn't mentioned in the documentary is that originally the british intended for what is now South Sudan to be part of Kenya (which would have made sense since it shares a lot of cultural/ethnic ties with Kenya or even Uganda), then it was supposed to be an independent country. But Egypt, which at the time intended to annex Sudan in it's territory, intervened and convinced the british to give the South to Sudan, even though the 2 regions don't have anything in common other than arabs raiding the South kidnapping people to sell into slavery.
By the way, that part of history shaped a lot of the discrimination faced today by blacks in North Sudan and North Africa, where "slave" is a very common pejorative word for black people.
It doesn't help that the Nilotic ethnic groups (Dinka, Nuer, etc) which make up the large majority in South Sudan have distinct physical characteristics, like being very tall and having the blackest skin in Africa, so even in North Sudan where an outsider may think Arabs are also black, the Southerners stand out just by how they look.

Another interesting fact, Barack Obama's father was from the Luo tribe which is a Nilotic ethnic group that migrated from what is now South Sudan to Kenya a few hundred years ago. Maybe that's why Obama has been taking special interest in South Sudan's independence, pressuring the North in order to avoid a new conflict.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 13:20

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Sounds like Gaddafi forces pulled out of Zawiyah again, and have returned again. At the same time Misarata is under heavy attack.

To the east it sounds like the rebels got pushed back a bit, but then pushed forward, and retook the ground they had lost.

State TV is already claiming they've recaptured Zawiyah, Misarata, and Ras Lanuf, even though mulitple sources have said this isn't the case. State TV is also claiming Tobruk was recaptured, even though it's clearly still held by the rebels.

It also sounds like there's some serious military mobilisation going on around Tripoli, heading out to Misarata, probably to capture Misarate before the rebels get past Sirte.

The SAS situation appears to be that the British thought it would be a super idea to send a diplomat with SAS protection to talk with the rebels without first telling the rebels they were on their way, leading to them getting captured by the rebels. The rebels have apparently now been in contact with the British government, and the situation should soon be resolved, according to the rebels.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 14:22

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Weirdness from Tripoli

quote:

Volleys of gunfire are still hammering around Tripoli, says the BBC's Jeremy Bowen there. But he says there are questions being asked in Tripoli about the thousands of rounds that have been fired today. "Now, in daylight, it's clear that it is coming from Gaddafi supporters... But before dawn it sounded different, more like a fight. That's how it sounded. Different sorts of guns appeared to be exchanging fire. And later on, a Libyan man came up to me to say that there had been some sort of shootout going on, and the mass firing in the air and the celebrations had been started to cover it up."

# ? Mar 6, 2011 14:53

Troubled Joe: Dec 12, 2008; Ah may be hungry but ah sure aint weird.

farraday posted:

Because what they really need is someone on the ground to put them in contact with the decision making process, not someone to negotiate for the British government.

It's an amusing story but it sounds more like the special forces wouldn't want to open fire, but the rebels can hardly confirm the bona fides of some westerner with a heavily armed bodyguard. I'm sure the brits wouldn't want it specifically known, but it was clearly a risk sending a diplomatic envoy into an incredibly unstable situation.

I doubt the SAS were armed. Wouldn't that be a kind of declaration of war, for a foreign power to put armed soldiers in their borders? It would at least look very, very bad.

No, you probably know more than me but I'd be very surprised if they were armed. I would have thought they were used simply for their infiltration type skills.

Maybe they made contact with the rebels who decided to arrest them.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 15:30

Soviet Commubot: Oct 22, 2008

Troubled Joe posted:

I doubt the SAS were armed. Wouldn't that be a kind of declaration of war, for a foreign power to put armed soldiers in their borders? It would at least look very, very bad.

No, you probably know more than me but I'd be very surprised if they were armed. I would have thought they were used simply for their infiltration type skills.

Maybe they made contact with the rebels who decided to arrest them.

I'd be rather surprised if they weren't armed. With the semi-anarchic state the country is in I'd be shocked if the UK (which is an exceedingly practical country when it comes to matters like this) sent someone in without some sort of protection against criminals who would love to take advantage of the situation and kidnap the guy or just rob and kill him.

However I'm pretty sure they made contact with the rebel authorities and were taken into custody without resistance and that was likely the plan from the beginning. The rebels couldn't very well let armed foreigners run around with impunity without losing some credibility so they talk up how they "captured" them while it was likely rather more amicable than what is implied.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 16:05

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Troubled Joe posted:

I doubt the SAS were armed. Wouldn't that be a kind of declaration of war, for a foreign power to put armed soldiers in their borders? It would at least look very, very bad.

If they were totally unarmed, the diplomats might have gone by themselves, unless the idea is that men in uniforms project authority or something. But supposing that their mission was to escort a diplomat, they may have been carrying just pistols or submachineguns - something that might help them from being mugged by a mob, but still would not be a good idea to start fighting with a big group of men with rifles and RPG's. Having personal sidearms with them in an area where the national army and police have no presence wouldn't be diplomatically such a big deal as it would be during peace time.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 16:07

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Misarata

quote:

LibyanYouthMovement tweets: "We are getting reports from Misrata that the city is free and they have captured some of the pro gaddafi forces #Libya #Feb17."

quote:

And LibyaInMe also tweets: "CONFIRMED: #Gaddafi's men backed out of Misrata. 10 killed incl. a 2 yr. 10 of Gaddafi's men have been detained. #feb17 #libya."

quote:

Now Reuters is quoting a resident of Misrata as saying the rebels have repelled an attack by regime forces on the town.

quote:

A resident in Misrata gives more details to Reuters of the rebels' success in driving back government forces saying: "The revolutionaries captured 20 soldiers and seized a tank. The town is now fully in the control of the youths."

Zawiyah

quote:

A Libyan expat who lives in Wales tells the BBC he spoke to his mother in Zawiya on Saturday night. The city was under rebel control but surrounded by pro-Gaddafi forces, he said, who were using heavy artillery and "shooting randomly at peaceful protesters and innocent people on the streets, in what they call daily 'hit and run' attacks. Two of my cousins were shot yesterday. One of them is OK but we remain worried about the other one. Two teenagers were also reportedly chased by pro-Gaddafi thugs and hanged in public - just as an example, to put fear into the hearts of the city's people."

So is this Gaddafi's tactics? Surround a city and harass the residents each day with tanks and artillery? It sounds like he's try to break the will of the residents using a combination of seiging and hit and run tactics.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 16:46

Flayer: Sep 13, 2003; by Fluffdaddy; Buglord

I think, at some point, whether you believe you are right or wrong, you realise that you are having a negative impact on the lives of your people and it would be best if you moved on. When you are shelling them in their homes surely that point has to come.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 17:55

Nill: Aug 24, 2003

Flayer posted:

I think, at some point, whether you believe you are right or wrong, you realise that you are having a negative impact on the lives of your people and it would be best if you moved on. When you are shelling them in their homes surely that point has to come.

Unfortunately there is the small problem that CQ is categorically insane.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:03

The Cheshire Cat: Jun 10, 2008; Fun Shoe

Flayer posted:

I think, at some point, whether you believe you are right or wrong, you realise that you are having a negative impact on the lives of your people and it would be best if you moved on. When you are shelling them in their homes surely that point has to come.

That is thinking like a rational person. Gaddafi is not a rational person. To him, HE is Libya and even if every single person in the country turns against him, THEY'RE the traitors.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:04

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Not sure how legit it is, but the Libyan Interim Transitional National Council has set up a twitter account at LibyanTNC.

Their first tweet, four hours ago:

quote:

By the name of God we start #libya #17feb

And in Tunisia, there's worry that their revolution is going to be exploited as they call for more military intervention to stabilize the country.

quote:

There have been calls for a greater military role to help stabilise post-revolutionary Tunisia, but North Africa analyst Francis Ghiles warns that a military coup would only damage Tunisia's long-term interests.

The poorer classes of Tunisia paid a heavy price in blood to overthrow the out of touch Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali and his greedy family, but building a working democratic system is proving to be difficult.

The interim Tunisian Prime Minister Mohamed Ghannouchi resigned last Sunday, saying that he "did not want to be the prime minister of repression".

Bloody clashes between tens of thousands of young demonstrators, who were demanding the departure of a man who had held the job for 11 years, left dozens wounded and five dead in the heart of Tunis.

Mr Ghannouchi was replaced by Beji Caid Sebsi, an 84-year-old lawyer who served as a former foreign minister under Habib Bourguiba - the founder of modern Tunisia - and a man who retired from active political life in 1994.

However honourable and well intentioned, appointing a man born in 1926 to run the country is seen by many young Tunisians as adding insult to injury. It suggests that the Tunisian elites are unwilling to usher in the radical changes so many of their countrymen hope for.

There is now increasing talk of the army taking over, rumours which are encouraged by the dire situation on Tunisia's southern border with Libya from which 75,000 refugees have arrived in recent days.
Ben Ali 'lite'

Fear of disorder is growing as many workers are on strike and former managers, deeply compromised by their links to the former president, are being forced to resign their jobs, notably in state companies.

A number of ordinary Tunisians have been beaten up in recent days by plain clothes policemen and members of the hated militia of the fallen dictator - Brigades de l'Ordre Public ("les Bop").

The economic challenge is also a tall one. The political turmoil, combined with sluggish growth in Europe, is expected to lead to a contraction of 1.5% in real Gross Domestic Product in 2011. This compares with an estimated growth of 3.4% last year.

The cost of the current upheaval was estimated at $5bn (�3.1bn), equivalent to 11% of GDP, a figure which is likely to rise if a functioning government cannot get the country back to work soon.

Two major sources of foreign currency have, for the moment, dried up - tourism and receipts from Tunisian workers in Libya. Tunisia does, however, have a manageable foreign debt which is mostly on concessional terms.

A conference of the country's major economic partners due shortly will no doubt offer some breathing space.

Entrenched interests

Despite the difficulties Tunisia currently faces, it would be a huge mistake for the army, many of whom are conscripts, and its highly respected army chief of staff, Gen Rachid Ammar, who refused the former dictator's orders to shoot on unarmed crowds of protesters, to seize power.

The temptation may come from pressure in the ruling elite, fearful of seeing its wealth and privileges eroded by the emergence of genuine democratic forces; and from "friends" of Tunisia in Washington, European or Arab capitals who would be content to see a Ben Ali "lite" regime, rather than a genuine democracy emerge from the current confusion.

Finally the Tunisian army is small and under equipped: it might be tempting for its senior officers to claim a stake of the pie.

Gen Ammar might, however, take a different stand, modelled on the situation in Turkey - to act as the guarantor of his country's external security and guarantee that free and fair elections will take place.

If he chooses to act constitutionally, he might well remember the example of his predecessor, Gen Kheireddine Pasha. He was principal minister of Mohamed al-Sadok Bey, the Tunisian ruler who issued the first modern constitution in the Arab world in 1861, 20 years before France colonised Tunisia.
Establishment figure

Throughout barely six weeks as interim prime minister, Mohamed Ghannouchi was very much in the hands of former acolytes of Mr Ben Ali.

This is hardly surprising for this former civil servant and minister who, though a man of personal integrity, had failed over the years to confront a rapacious and mafiosi first family.

Some of his closest advisers were linked to Mr Ben Ali, either by marrying into the family or through their professional services to the presidential office.

One adviser - a speech writer for the former French prime minister Jean Pierre Raffarin - had even helped to craft the former head of state's last two televised speeches before he fled the country on 14 January.

Their presence suggests that entrenched interests remain powerful in the economy and the security forces, and will not cede power easily to a younger generation, even if they were willing to sacrifice Ben Ali.

The temptation to use young thugs who belonged to the Ben Ali militias must be strong and their presence and brutish behaviour were there for all to see during last weekend's disturbances in Tunis.

source

Turkey's again mentioned as a possible (as well as the best) route they could take, but the country's still in turmoil and trying to sort itself out, so who knows what'll emerge at the end.

Narmi fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:12

Pureauthor: Jul 8, 2010; ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

There is also the issue that he probably does not care about what happens to Libya or the people involved in it as long as he can cling to power (and presumably a life of luxury).

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:12

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

lil sartre posted:

If you want to know more about the history of Sudan and how/why the South became independent, check out this very good Al Jazeera documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7okF15IeSXE&hd=1

One interesting thing that isn't mentioned in the documentary is that originally the british intended for what is now South Sudan to be part of Kenya (which would have made sense since it shares a lot of cultural/ethnic ties with Kenya or even Uganda), then it was supposed to be an independent country. But Egypt, which at the time intended to annex Sudan in it's territory, intervened and convinced the british to give the South to Sudan, even though the 2 regions don't have anything in common other than arabs raiding the South kidnapping people to sell into slavery.
By the way, that part of history shaped a lot of the discrimination faced today by blacks in North Sudan and North Africa, where "slave" is a very common pejorative word for black people.
It doesn't help that the Nilotic ethnic groups (Dinka, Nuer, etc) which make up the large majority in South Sudan have distinct physical characteristics, like being very tall and having the blackest skin in Africa, so even in North Sudan where an outsider may think Arabs are also black, the Southerners stand out just by how they look.

Another interesting fact, Barack Obama's father was from the Luo tribe which is a Nilotic ethnic group that migrated from what is now South Sudan to Kenya a few hundred years ago. Maybe that's why Obama has been taking special interest in South Sudan's independence, pressuring the North in order to avoid a new conflict.

Thank you, I will watch this.

The worst part of the Darfur thing happened when I was more focused on myself and pointedly ignoring the news and politics. I'd see one picture of a skinny little kid and automatically change the channel during that time. It's never too late to catch up.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:18

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

In Egypt news, The Egyptians have replaced the Mubarak-era foreign minister with Nabil El-Arabi, his resume includes:

-- At first he was a legal adviser for the Delegation that signed the Camp David Accords between Egypt and Israel, but quickly turned against it and became an Opponent of the Accords.

-- A veteran lawyer and diplomat, he was responsible for the Legal victory of Egypt that proved Egypts Right to the town of Taba after the israeli's withdrew from the Sinai.

-- Ambassador to India.

-- He then became a judge on the International Criminal Court.

Overall an excellent Choice.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:24

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Flayer posted:

I think, at some point, whether you believe you are right or wrong, you realise that you are having a negative impact on the lives of your people and it would be best if you moved on. When you are shelling them in their homes surely that point has to come.

This idea has realized itself just about never in the history of mankind, otherwise there would be no armed conflicts. Abraham Lincoln is still admired by many not because he was a great humanist but because he crushed the rebel armies and burned down their cities. Had he instead allowed the South to secede, he would be remembered as the worst US President ever. Well, apart from GWB.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:27

Ewan: Sep 29, 2008; Ewan is tired of his reputation as a serious Simon. I'm more of a jokester than you people think. My real name isn't even Ewan, that was a joke it's actually MARTIN! LOL fooled you again, it really is Ewan! Look at that monkey with a big nose, Ewan is so random! XD

BBC News are reporting on the TV that the SAS guys have been released. The report suggests there were eight people, of which 6 were SF. They landed by helicopter at around 0200 near Benghazi and were arrested after they were found to be carrying weapons, explosives and documents (including passports of multiple nationalities).

Libyan State TV has played what it says is a recording of a telephone conversation between the British Ambassador to Libya and a Rebel Commander, where he is talking about what they can do to help "clear up this misunderstanding".

# ? Mar 6, 2011 18:42

madey: Sep 17, 2007; I saved the Olympics singlehandedly

Why is the UK government being so belligerent? We don't have strong historical ties there as far as I know and we get comparatively little oil from Libya so why are Cameron and Hague getting involved?

# ? Mar 6, 2011 19:00

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Misarata

quote:

This video has emerged onine in the past few hours, and claims to show the city of Misurata after opposition fighters saw off attacks by Gaddafi's troops. It shows shell-damaged buildings and burnt out tanks. It's on Facebook, so we can't embed it here. To watch it, you'll have to click here. Like the other videos we've been sent via third-party sites, we've got no way of independently verifying its veracity.

quote:

We're getting reports from Misurata that 16 Gaddafi soldiers, and 18 armed anti-Gaddafi fighters, were killed in today's fighting. There are at least 71 wounded, and nine in critical condition, we understand.

Four 4x4 vehicles with mounted rifles were reportedly captured, and one tank destroyed.

The video is worth watching, gives you a sense what the Gaddafi forces are up against. The people of Misarata certaintly don't look defeated to me.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 19:18

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

A scary unconfirmed report:

quote:

@ProtestWatch
Protestwatch.org.uk
RT: @25FebFreedom: The Yemeni gov now has cut off the internet in Aden , Sanaa and in other cities , there is something going 2 happen

Eyes on Yemen today.ProtestWatch has been fairly accurate and doesn't usually retweet or post things without links, so this caught my attention right away.

A clip from a good article about a reporter who came under fire multiple times in Yemen:

quote:

Normally it started with stone throwing or gunshots in the air. The Saturday I met Ahmed they were shooting right at us.

Running was usually the best option, but since the shooting was so close I instead darted into a small streetside restaurant.

�You ran to the cafeteria but didn�t grab my hand. Thanks a lot,� Ahmed teased me later. But quickly added, �Nah, no offence taken. At least you did call for me.�

The restaurant owner let me slip in just before he closed the tin door and that�s when I turned back to see if Ahmed was behind me and shouted. Seconds later he was in, too.

We crouched in the kitchen, me beside a bag of carrots, Ahmed leaning on potatoes, as the door was punctured with rocks and gunfire.

To pass the time, Ahmed tried to correct my horrendous Arabic accent while the fighting went on outside. When someone asked why the owner was hiding a foreign journalist, Ahmed calmed him down.

Ahmed later told me we were in the restaurant for more than an hour, which I couldn�t believe. �You were busy tweeting,� he said.

We left when my driver was able to walk into the area to find us. The restaurant owner asked if we wanted lunch first. Ahmed later marvelled, �We had more equipment on us than what the whole cafeteria was worth and he offered us lunch, even though he risked his life for taking us in.�

It's a good article and not too long, you should read it:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/949519--yemen-both-dangerous-and-beautiful?bn=1

Wahhabi clerics just have to air their pompous opinions:

quote:

"The Council of Senior Clerics affirms that demonstrations are forbidden in this country. The correct way in sharia (Islamic law) of realising common interest is by advising, which is what the Prophet Mohammad established," said the statement by the body headed by the Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Al al-Sheikh.

"Reform and advice should not be via demonstrations and ways that provoke strife and division, this is what the religious scholars of this country in the past and now have forbidden and warned against," said the statement, carried by state media.

Security forces have detained at least 22 Shi'ites who have staged small protests for about two weeks in the kingdom's oil-rich east, activists said. The region is near Bahrain, scene of protests by majority Shi'ites against their Sunni rulers.

More than 17,000 people backed a call on Facebook to hold two demonstrations in Saudi Arabia this month, the first on Friday. The interior ministry said on Saturday that protests violate Islamic law and the kingdom's traditions.

"You should not demand your rights, this is rude and upsets King Abdullah. Instead, you should ask us nicely so we can continue to ignore you--it's tradition. You are a slave by Allah's will, Islamic Law, and by Kingdom tradition. Now get back in the cellar and finish peeling those potatoes like Allah wants you to."

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE7250EO20110306

This article is mostly rehash and opinion, but it had a nice summary of the "Arab Dictator Revolution Prevention Measures" playbook:

quote:

The Gulf rulers have prepared for possible protests in several ways. Some have �responded� to the demands of the masses and made a number of political changes, mostly tactical; others have placed an emphasis on economic reforms in the hope that they will be sufficient to nip any fomenting activity in the bud. While such preventive measures are intended to take the sting out of any possible protest, they testify to the rulers� fears as to the stability of their regimes, and they may even whet the political appetites of the masses further. Another customary step is pointing an accusing finger at foreign involvement (read: Iran) in inciting the riots.

Individual steps by the various regimes have included identifying with the struggle of the Arab masses; making changes in their governments (Bahrain and Oman); raising salaries in the private sector (Oman) and the public sector (Saudi Arabia); releasing Shiite prisoners (Saudi Arabia and Bahrain); increasing security around Shiite areas and oil facilities (Saudi Arabia); increasing internet surveillance; arrests of demonstrators and tightened supervision of Shiite clerics (Saudi Arabia and Kuwait); preventive arrests (Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates); and increased control of entry of foreign citizens, especially Arabs (Kuwait).

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/34108?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

If you're willing to flee to Liberia for safety, that's pretty bad:

quote:

MONROVIA/ABIDJAN, Mar 6 (Reuters) - Heavy fighting erupted in western Ivory Coast between rebels and forces loyal to incumbent leader Laurent Gbagbo, sources along the Liberian border told Reuters on Sunday.

Gunfire could be heard by residents in Liberian border villages and wounded fighters were crossing over, seeking medical attention, the sources said.

Ivory Coast has been in turmoil since a disputed November election that threatens to rekindle the West African state's 2002-03 civil war, and has already drastically hindered exports from the world's top cocoa grower. [ID:nLDE70N1TU]

The standoff has escalated into open armed conflict in the west and parts of the main commercial city Abidjan, and fears of another civil war have pushed cocoa futures to break regular 32-year highs. [ID:nLDE7221J0]

"We in Tapeta, here, did not sleep last night from the sounds of the guns (in Ivory Coast)," a Red Cross official said, asking not to be named.

"It sounded like the war was moving into this area.

http://af.reuters.com/article/ivoryCoastNews/idAFLDE7250EB20110306?feedType=RSS&feedName=ivoryCoastNews&pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

The article goes on to say later that Liberia is not stable enough to handle a large influx of refugees. "Tens of thousands" of Ivorians have fled there already, according to the article. It's sad, too; Ivory Coast looks like it would be a very nice place to visit as a tourist if you didn't have to worry about being murdered in your sleep. Maybe if they can be rid of their tin-pot dictators they could go back to producing the world's cocoa and maybe attract some tourism. Your Swiss Miss with those dried-out little marshmallows is going to cost a lot more in the near future.

Actually I shouldn't make fun here, cocoa prices are serious. Nearly everything that's chocolate-flavored contains cocoa---cookies, cakes, pies, ice cream, chocolate syrup, and cheap candy like Palmer's. All of those things are going to be more expensive now. Learn to like vanilla because it's going to be cheaper than almost any sort of chocolate.

Apology fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 19:23

Verizian: Dec 18, 2004; The spiky one.

There's money involved. Either direct contracts or by offering a favour to a new emerging democracy they might hurt the flow of money to a British "ally" who we compete with economically and has a financial interest in the Middle East's current regimes.

Remember the leaked cable where the US didn't want the Tories getting power in the UK? While they do share goals with the Republicans in the US they detest being seen as puppets like Labour were and are perfectly happy to decapitate themselves then rape their own eyesockets just to spite their face.

Also there are shitloads of people in the NorthWest UK with relatives living and working in Libya. Local politicians are having a field day round here taking credit for each one that's evacuated and local papers are running frontpage stories about local business owners and doctors that have lost loved ones to Ghaddafi's thugs.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 19:32

quadratic: May 2, 2002; f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c

#amndawla is full of reports of violence between protesters and thugs at the state security headquarters. Some are saying the army joined in attacking the people, but others say they were just shooting in the air to disperse the crowd. At least some of the protesters have regrouped at Tahrir.

Pictures from the state security building at 6th of October City earlier in the day.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 19:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Sounds like the security services gathered up some thugs and attacked people trying to get into a security service building, and the army got rough trying to break things up, although it's not too clear. Alot of people are very pissed off with the army now, they think the army chased them away from the buildings on purpose, to stop them getting in the building.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 19:42

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

A video I found about Libya. Clearly someone wants to try out every different wipe that their new video editing program provides, the music is horrible, and the volume of the different clips jumps from nearly inaudible to HOLY poo poo LOUD, but it's still worth watching. There's also a charity recommendation at the end, since some people have asked about it. I have trouble donating money to any sort of religious authorities so YMMV:

WARNING: DEAD BODIES :nms:

(fans of this thread have seen much worse though)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi2HZFisZ_c

Most of what I like about this article is the writing style. It's very long, but well worth reading.

quote:

Are Zimbabweans less human?
She buttresses her point by a reference to Marange diamonds fields where she says helicopter gun-ships were used against the people.

She continues: "Meanwhile, these diamonds are being sold onto the open market, making Mugabe and his cronies wealthier by the day while the majority of his people cannot even afford to feed themselves."

Turning to Britain, she sorely adds: "Over the last few years, there has been a lot of talk that the Iraq invasion only took place because of the oil reserves there.

"I was reluctant to believe that, and hoped that the British government at least, was better than that, and cared more about human lives than about natural resources.

"Now, faced with dictatorial leaders falling left and right, the only situation that has sparked any interest from the British government is that in Libya, the richest of them all in terms of oil.

"So the question I wish for you to answer is why, if not for oil, has Britain condemned Gaddafi's actions, but quite happily ignoring the exact same behaviours in many other countries, including Zimbabwe?

"Why is military action against the Libyan people unacceptable, yet against Zimbabweans it is ignored and brushed under the carpet?

"Are the people of Zimbabwe any less human?"
And she closes with a mighty threat: "I have circulated copies of this letter to a number of newspapers including the BBC, a number of independent Zimbabwean news sources and human rights activists in South Africa, and I know we are all eager to hear your response."

Beautiful ones will never be born
Gentle reader, I don't know what you make of this short letter from the young lady. I will tell you my reading of it. It marks settler anger renewed across gender and generations. Institutionalised anger which proves quite clearly that on this one matter, the beautiful ones may never be born. On both sides, I can assure you.

Placed in similar circumstances, an African girl would just be as bitter, of course without the privilege of writing a British Prime Minister. She would most probably find her own kith and kin.

Land is a core asset and identity of a people. It does not quite matter whether it is rightfully yours or wrongfully acquired. It seeps into your very blood and psyche, making you part of it. This is where the discourse gets a bit unfriendly.

Taking back the land was a very bold decision by us, a very painful decision for those on the receiving end of it. The bitterness of the latter would be as sharp as our collective happiness as the former, something akin to the action and reaction nexus. Why did we ever think Britain, Europe and America would react through polite sanctions? Why?

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/opinion-4615-The+day+the+lion+knew+how+to+draw/opinion.aspx?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

The guy's not just pulling stuff out of his rear end, either, I can back him up:

quote:

--------------------------------
Diamond Trade a Violent Business
--------------------------------

�10. (C) The diamond frenzy in Chiadzwa has led to hundreds
and possibly thousands of homicides. Word of easy diamonds
spurred a rush of Zimbabwean and foreign diggers to the area
including Angolans, Congolese, Mozambicans, South Africans
and Zambians, as well as diggers from as far away as Sierra

Leone and Cote D'Ivoire Cranswick estimated there are
currently around three or four thousand diggers swarming over
the 70 hectare Chiadzwa site. The police have unsuccessfully
tried to prevent the site from becoming overrun, and
routinely use live fire to chase away diggers. Anyone trying
to enter the area has to present a Zimbabwean national
identification card with a registration number that ends in
"75", signifying the person is a resident of the Mutare
region of Manicaland.

�11. (C) During the first weekend of November, police killed
at least five panners in Chiadzwa, according to the on-line
newspaper Zimbabwe Times. While usually operating on foot
with attack dogs, this time the police used a helicopter to
shoot at panners. Passmore Nyakureba, a lawyer with the
Zimbabwe Lawyers for Human Rights said, "This has become an
everyday scenario. Up to five people die every week as a
result of being shot at by police or after being bitten by
dogs." Cranswick said that at the peak of the frenzy in
2007, up to a hundred panners were shot in a week.

�12. (C) In response to aggressive police action, diggers
began arming themselves with handguns and in some cases
automatic weapons. They also formed loose gangs in an
attempt to protect themselves as well as "claimed" areas.
Cranswick said that some members of the police and army have
deserted in order to join the digging, and they typically
brought their firearms with them. Some former police even
still wear their uniforms as they search for diamonds.

-------------------------------------
Police Corrupted; Community Destroyed
-------------------------------------

�13. (C) Cranswick said that the police were rotated into the
area on two-week shifts to control the mining and keep
unauthorized diggers out, but they were immediately
corrupted. Police officers routinely charged 100 rand or
US$10 a person for a day's digging in Chiadzwa. The military
has largely avoided the area out of fear that commanding
officers would lose control of their troops, according to
Cranswick.

�14. (C) Cranswick maintained that local chiefs were on ACR's
side in its pending court battle to win back its claim. They
realized that the "curse" of diamonds had wreaked havoc in
the community. Children were no longer attending school, the
environmental degradation was severe, lawlessness and
violence reigned, and the community was not benefiting from
the resource. According to an independent weekly newspaper,
three quarters of the schools in Marange, Buhera, and
Chimanimani districts failed to open this term because
teachers and students alike were digging for diamonds.

http://wikileaks.arane.us/cable/2008/11/08HARARE1016.html

The cable was written two years ago, and not much has changed since then.

And since I'm rummaging around in the cables again, I found one about Ivory Coast. Everyone knew that the elections were going to be a sham before they were held.

quote:

�1. C) Summary: Although key figures in the Ivorian government
and opposition continue to insist publicly that elections
must be held as scheduled on November 29, resident diplomats
are highly skeptical, as are most politically-savvy Ivorians.
The gap between public pronouncements and the
behind-the-scenes reality has become so clear, in fact, that
UN SRSG Choi has started referring in private conversations
to the "myth and reality" of elections in Cote d'Ivoire. This
message describes the key myths and realities as we see them.
End Summary (snip)

�3. (S) The Reality: There will not be an election unless
President Gbagbo is confident that he will win it -- and he
is not yet confident of the outcome. This has been the
assessment of some analysts since 2005 and the political
landscape in Cote d'Ivoire helps to explain why. (another snip)

�4. (S) In addition to these calculations, there are other
reasons for the governing coalition to want to hang on for as
long as they can. Cote d'Ivoire will celebrate the 50th
anniversary of its independence in August 2010. Savvy
observers do not believe that President Gbagbo (who savors
the role of Le Grand Chef) will risk losing the prestige and
celebrity that goes with hosting such an historic event. (snip)

...For despite months of dedicated work and millions of dollars
worth of expenditures, not a single voter registration or
national ID card has been produced. Data collected partly by
hand on over 6 million individuals must be computerized,
linked up with fingerprints and vaQed before cards can be
produced and distributed. The likelihood that this will be
accomplished before November is slim, and there is no
indication that either the President or the Prime Minister's
office is pushing for rapid action.

http://wikileaks.arane.us/cable/2009/07/09ABIDJAN406.html

This cable was written in July of 2009. According to the text within the US knew something was rotten in Ivory Coast as far back as 2005.

Edit: This might have already been posted, but I'm posting it again in case it hasn't. When I read this thread late at night I have a tendency to not click video links because a lot of them are screamingly loud and I don't want to wake everyone in the house.

For your viewing pleasure, if you haven't seen it: ZENGA ZENGA (has hot chick dancing too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBY-0n4esNY

Sorry if it's a repost, but it just amused me, and if you haven't seen it, you might enjoy it.

Apology fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Mar 6, 2011

# ? Mar 6, 2011 20:13

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This person seems to be outside the security HQ now:
http://twitter.com/sarrahsworld
They are negoiating with the army to let 10 people in, the crowd are trying to pick the 10 at the moment. She's saying that it all started when people try to break past an army barricade and the army tried to scare them off, with some SS thugs turning up at the same time.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 21:20

MothraAttack: Apr 28, 2008

Some new videos, one alleging to show Gaddafi forces entering Zawiya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCi1cmVvVGs

And another showing the aftermath of today's battle in Misrata, including what appears to be the remains of a BMP-1 (?) and a seriously burnt out office building at about 5:25:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw9ZzW7fKCU

Also some tweets out there alleging more gunfire in Tripoli tonight and possible clashes in Sirt. Completely unverified but big news if true.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 23:27

Banano: Jan 10, 2005; Soiled Meat

beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beep beep beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeep

# ? Mar 6, 2011 23:33

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Banano posted:

beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beep beep beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeep

It's that or shoot into the air, and they need the ammo.

# ? Mar 6, 2011 23:38

Rkelly: Sep 7, 2003

Banano posted:

beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beep beep beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeep

MY GIRLFRIEND! is cussing out the tv about this loving incessant beeping. I read that just as she said it. It is not funny to her at all though

# ? Mar 6, 2011 23:48

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/28/110228fa_fact_steavenson

Pro-read from TNY about what it was like on the ground in Tahrir.

quote:

In Arabic, tahrir means �liberation,� and Tahrir Square acquired its name after the coup of 1952, which ousted King Farouk and realigned power across the Arab world. It is a vast teardrop of open space adjacent to dusty, crowded streets and the tight mass of alleys of downtown Cairo�a once grand central district that has since been left to rot as most of the �lite moved out to the suburbs.

Around Tahrir are several imposing buildings, which seem almost to form a diagram of Egyptian life. At the northern end of the square is the Egyptian Museum, containing Pharaonic treasure spanning millennia. To its west is the modern slab of the National Democratic Party headquarters. South of that is the home of the Arab League, which once enshrined the hopes of the Pan-Arabist movement but is now largely considered a moribund talking shop. On the eastern side of the square is the elegant former campus of the American University in Cairo, converted in part from a palace built for a nineteenth-century Ottoman pasha. At the southern end is the Omar Makram mosque, where state funerals often occur, and the Mogamma, a dour edifice built, in the early fifties, as a gift from the Soviet Union. The Mogamma houses a vast bureaucracy�tax-evasion-investigation offices, the passport office, departments issuing drivers� licenses and marriage licenses�whose labyrinthine tangles are notorious among Egypt�s citizenry. A block from the square, in a side street, is the American Embassy, one of the largest United States foreign missions, and a reminder of the two billion dollars of American aid, including $1.3 billion in military assistance, that flows into the country each year. Three large hotels�the Ramses Hilton, the Nile Hilton, and the Semiramis Intercontinental�surround the square, catering to some of the twelve million tourists who contribute a significant proportion to Egypt�s economy.

The concierge who showed me to my room at the Semiramis joked, �I�ve worked here for twenty years and it�s the first time anyone has asked for a city view. Always people are desperately wanting a room on the Nile.� For several days, the square had been full of crowds demanding an end to the rule of President Hosni Mubarak. From the hotel, it was possible to see smoke rising from the blackened husk of the N.D.P. headquarters, which protesters had burned on January 28th, the Friday of Rage. The building continued to smolder for two days.

On the square, there were workers from the slums with broken shoes; university professors; ex-Army officers; trendy upper-middle-class girls with long black hair and Fendi sunglasses; imams and Coptic priests; National Democratic Party members. Everyone wanted to be heard. �Please, foreign journalist?� they said, politely stopping me. �I have something to say!� I talked to one activist who worked for Vodafone. �There is a collective consciousness,� he said. �Even after the phones went off��the regime shut down cell-phone and Internet service for several days��there was a kind of national telepathy of where to go.� Day by day, they gathered the momentum of revolution, awed by their own defiance and wary of the tanks that had taken up residence around the perimeter of the square.

On January 30th, I watched a column of tanks advance into the square. Protesters blocked their way while two F-16 fighter jets buzzed, loud and intimidating, overhead. �The people and the Army are one hand!� the crowd chanted, climbing on top of the tanks, scrawling �Mubarak Must Go!� on their flanks, and engaging the soldiers.

�We are your brothers,� people said.

�We will not harm you,� one soldier said.

�Will you shoot at us?� people asked. �You will shoot at us if you are given the order.�

�No,� a soldier replied. �I will never do that. Not even if I am given the order.�

In the standoff between the regime and the protesters, the Army was bound to be crucial. The Egyptian Army commands enormous respect among civilians. The military establishment has long been the most powerful institution in the country and controls not just security and defense but also a huge economic sphere, including factories and road building and housing projects. As the days passed, and the crowds on Tahrir grew and Mubarak prevaricated, I tried to make sense of the Army�s role.

There was something surreal about the tanks on the square. Few armies enjoy being sent to the streets to restore civil order, and the tanks were not accompanied by any infantry. I spoke to George Ishak, the head of the opposition movement Kefaya (the name means �enough�), who said, �I believe the military will protect us. We trust in our military a lot because we don�t have anyone else to trust.� He also wondered why the Army had not contained the protesters more effectively. �I don�t know why,� he said, �but they are a little soft�delicate.� He rubbed his finger and thumb together, as if feeling a piece of cloth. �They face people in a very gentle way.� He also said, �The military is a black box, and no one knows what happens inside.�

The following day, I overheard a conversation between members of the crowd and a lieutenant colonel standing next to a tank that was blocking the entrance road leading to the Ministry of Interior.

�How long will you be here?� they asked him

�Until you guys calm down,� he replied. He seemed a little frustrated by his deployment. �You guys are taking it too far. You�ve been silent for thirty years and for them that means that you were happy. Now you have demonstrated. You have delivered the message, but now you are going to rip the country apart.�

The soldier was upset. Perhaps he saw, as the regime was telling people on state-TV channels, a foreign and Islamist conspiracy. Someone from the crowd offered him a bottle of water.

�I want to know where all this stuff is coming from,� he said. �Where is the money coming from? In whose interest is all this?� He swept his arm toward the huge crowds in the square.

The most violent phase of the Tahrir revolution came on February 2nd, when protesters decisively held the square against crowds loyal to the regime. In the afternoon, a pro-Mubarak crowd several thousand strong pushed its way onto the square, at one point charging on horses and camels. Through the afternoon, the protesters beat the pro-Mubarak crowd back to the perimeter by running at them and hurling stones. At dusk, I saw soldiers stationed at an entrance to the square by Qasr al Nil Bridge crawl inside their tanks, which were parked between the protesters and a large pro-Mubarak crowd, and secure the hatches. The tanks formed a front line as the pro-Mubarak crowd taunted the protesters. Suddenly, stones started flying back and forth. There are nine roads and numerous alleys that lead into Tahrir Square, and almost every point of access was under siege: it seemed an impossible space to defend. Yet, over the next several hours, I watched as the protesters held the square that they had fought to occupy five days before.

The protesters quarried paving stones from the square and ripped sections of metal fencing from around a construction site, for use as shields. At times, the battle became entirely obscured in dust, and one could hear only the sound of stones plinking against the parked tanks. Burning wads of garbage skidded across the tarmac, leaving trails of flames, which the protesters tried to stamp out. At around eight o�clock, the protesters launched a thick volley of stones as covering fire for a vanguard that rushed out and chased the pro-Mubarak group around the curve of an access road and onto the street directly beneath my balcony. The pro-Mubarak group scattered, some taking cover in the entrance to a derelict building, emerging to lob burning missiles at the advancing protesters. During the next few hours, the pro-Mubarak group leaked away into the dark. The protesters quickly erected a barricade out of street signs and bits of metal fencing. Whenever a pro-Mubarak group came forward, the protesters banged on metal, to summon reinforcements from the heart of the square.

At daybreak the next morning, the square was subdued, as if people were in disbelief at what had happened. I walked onto the square past the tanks, their paint chipped where the stones had hit them. An officer, tired and unshaven, was leaning out of the top hatch, reading the morning paper and talking on his cell phone. I asked one of the soldiers why they had not intervened the night before.

�What could we do?� he said. �We�re not going to fire on people, after all. They were throwing Molotov cocktails at each other. One just happened to land on us.�

He pointed at a scorch mark.

�And what will happen today?� I asked him.

�I hope it will be quieter, peaceful,� he said, as every soldier everywhere hopes each morning. �It�s our country and we should fear for it.�

Around us, men were filling burlap sacks with paving chunks and ferrying them to the barricades, in case of new attacks. Others slept, curled up in flower beds and gutters. Many had bandaged heads or taped-up noses and were hobbling along or gingerly cradling arms held in slings. People had tied pieces of cardboard to their heads with string and were using polystyrene boxes or plastic paint buckets as helmets. At the north end of the square, by the Egyptian Museum, the battle had lasted all night and was still raging. I could see an arc of rocks rising beyond a barricade made of scrap metal and overturned burned cars.

A knot of protesters came past, jostling and shouting; an officer in the security forces had been found. �Don�t hand him over! We should keep him!� one protester shouted. �No!� someone yelled back. �We�ll tie him to the fence!� The man was hurried along, and I noticed that the protesters were careful to shield him from the beating that others in the crowd wanted to give him.

I started talking to a pharmacist who had been among the front-line medics tending to the wounded. (Pharmacists receive first-aid medical training as part of their studies.) His name was Sherif Omar and he was thirty years old, with the soft eyes and dark wavy hair of a matin�e idol. His white coat was bloodstained. �I look like a butcher!� he said, and laughed. He had manned a mobile field station through the night, moving back and forth as the fighting ebbed and flowed. I asked him about numbers of wounded from the battle. �There are no statistics,� he said. �Hundreds, I can tell you. At around four or four-fifteen, our guys went on top of that bridge to get them off.� He pointed to the overpass behind the museum, which had been the last stronghold of the pro-Mubarak group. He had treated burns from Molotov cocktails and held in his arms two people who were killed by live ammunition.

As we talked, a platoon of soldiers marched past. The crowd chanted, �The people and the Army are one hand!� The slogan had become an important tenet of the revolution. The protesters seemed to be trying to chant their way out of a paradox that threatened their efforts: they were calling for the overthrow of a regime that, since its beginnings, in 1952, had been dominated by the military establishment.

As the soldiers passed by, Sherif was holding out a charred tear-gas cannister for me to see. He viewed it as evidence that many of the pro-Mubarak people were connected to the security services and had been drafted by the regime. He called them mercenaries, and said that some of those he had treated in his field hospital turned out to have police I.D.s and crisp Egyptian hundred-pound notes in their pockets.

At that moment, General Hassan al-Roweny, the commander of the Army in Cairo, marched through the barricade surrounded by soldiers and military police in scarlet berets. He came over and began to upbraid Sherif, brusquely waving his hands. He said that the protesters should leave the square, and that all this chaos was the work of foreign forces conspiring to destabilize Egypt. Sherif scoffed at this idea, and Roweny went up to a wounded protester and ripped a bandage from his head, crying, �Look, it�s just a bruise!� I saw a patch of dried blood near the man�s hairline. Roweny moved on to another man, who had a wad of cotton bandaged to a wound on his scalp, and gave another sharp tug, but the bandage would not come off, because it was stuck with dried blood. Then something strange happened. Roweny caught the man in a strangling hug and kissed him forcefully on the forehead, as if the man were a recalcitrant son whom he simultaneously loved and despaired of. Afterward, Sherif wondered, �Why was he ripping off people�s bandages? We had to put them back on again!�

I met Sherif often on the square. He told me that he was from Alexandria, and that seven or eight years ago, when he was still in college, he had decided to ignore politics. He had picked up a copy of Time and saw headlines on the Iraq War�President Bush, Israel and Palestine, terrorism. Then he realized that the magazine was from 1991. �I thought to myself, It�s the same news, it�s the same politics. It�s not going to change.� Now, sitting by a tent in the square, surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people demanding an end to Mubarak�s regime, he smiled ruefully at his former apathy. �Now I have an opinion. Now I am talking about politics.�

For Sherif, the turning point had come on the Friday of Rage, when people marching to the square encountered riot police wielding batons and firing rubber bullets and tear gas. It was the first anti-regime demonstration he had been to. �Actually, I wasn�t for Mubarak leaving but for a correction of the system. I thought, Why are people being so radical?� But the police brutality that day convinced him that the regime had to go. �Everyone was gasping for air, and simultaneously they turned on the water hoses and beat us with batons. They were beating the poo poo out of people without even giving them a chance to retreat.� Sherif suffers from asthma, and he was choking. �I had been in the midst of tear gas for three or four hours. At some point, I couldn�t breathe or see where I was going. There was a guy in front of me who was in the same condition, and he said, �I think we�re going to die here today.� I think everyone felt like that.�

In the days after the battle for the square, the Army deployed more soldiers, and secured several entrances to the square with concertina wire. It felt as if Cairo had been divided into two realities: inside the square and outside. Outside, the threat of beatings from pro-Mubarak bands lingered. News and rumors circulated that the security services had arrested several human-rights lawyers, and that activists and journalists were being detained, and having their equipment impounded, by the Army and security elements. Many people, including my translator, Mohamed El Dahshan, a journalist and dedicated Twitterer, were assaulted by vigilante groups. The groups had formed to guard their local streets at night when the police vanished after the Friday of Rage, and some of them now seemed to accept the government line that the crisis was the fault of foreign forces and people with laptops.

Inside was the Republic of Tahrir, where the protesters had established a kind of revolutionary utopia. As you came through the barricades by the Qasr al Nil Bridge, a funnel of protesters cheered and clapped and chanted, �Welcome! Welcome to the free, who have joined the revolutionaries!� The scene was indescribably moving. There was no hierarchy or formal organization on the square, and yet lines of protesters guarded the barricades while others swept the garbage into neat piles and manned the checkpoints to search people for weapons. People brought food and water and medicine into the square and gave it out for free. �We are queuing up!� one activist who had named his tent the Freedom Motel told me, incredulous at the number of people flowing into the square. �When was the last time you saw an Egyptian queuing up?� I asked one young female volunteer in a floral head scarf if she was with any particular organization. �I am with no one,� she replied simply. �I am with the people.�

�It�s getting more complicated by the hour,� Sherif told me at one point. �The solutions we required a week ago are no longer valid. The ceiling of democracy is getting higher.� The more the regime resisted the demands of the protesters, the bolder the demands grew. After three days of protest, Mubarak had addressed the nation, and appointed Omar Suleiman, the national-intelligence chief, as Vice-President. In a second address, Mubarak promised that he would not seek re�lection in the September Presidential elections. Several people told me that they thought his concession was adequate; they had waited thirty years, they could wait another six months or so. But the violence of February 2nd, which everyone assumed was state-sponsored, destroyed people�s trust in Presidential proclamations.

Nabil Fahmy, the Egyptian Ambassador to Washington until 2008, could scarcely conceal his anger when he spoke of the mobs attacking protesters. I asked him if he could be certain that the violence had been organized. He snorted: perhaps there had been genuine Mubarak supporters among them, but he was dismayed by the all-too-convenient absence of any state intervention to stop the violence. Like many Egyptians, he seemed to be struggling to make sense of the speed of events that had shaken the assumptions of the country�s �lite, and he worried that national values had been eroded. �It made me question what our generation and the older generation had done,� he said. He also told me about the moment when he had realized the strength and the resolution of the young activists who initiated the protests. Early in the protests, when the regime imposed a curfew, his son and a group of friends had been on the square all day and had come back to his apartment building, just two blocks away, to rest. He had invited them all to sleep there, but they were determined to go back to the square. He reminded them that there was a curfew. �They said, �Who applies this curfew?� They said this very simply and confidently, and it struck me that these kids now finally believe in the ownership of their country.�

In the square, behind a rectangle of white tarpaulin that was hung against an apartment building to make a video screen, a travel agency had been given over to opposition-party officials who came in and out of the square. Various politicians addressed the crowd�including Ayman Noor, who ran against Mubarak in the Presidential race of 2005 and was then jailed for three years�but their speeches were bland and made little impact. Most people I talked to on the square said they did not support any party.

At Friday prayer, ranks of men laid out improvised prayer mats: kaffiyehs, newspapers, an Egyptian flag, slogan placards. They wiped their hands in the dust of the destroyed paving stones, to clean them, because the Koran says that if there is no water and you are in the desert you can use sand to clean your hands before you pray. When they touched the ground with their foreheads, a little disk of dusty grit formed, stuck there by sweat. Many Egyptians are devout, but people in Tahrir tended to speculate that electoral support for the Muslim Brotherhood, the officially banned but semi-tolerated Islamist party, would be only between ten and twenty per cent.

The Muslim Brotherhood had a strong, but certainly not a majority, presence on the square. �Our strategy was going to the event but not leading it,� said Dr. Essam El-Erian, a member of the Guidance Council of the Brotherhood, when I met him in the Brotherhood�s shabby headquarters, on the third floor of a nondescript apartment building. He explained that the Brotherhood had taken a passive position so that the government could not use the movement�s involvement as an excuse to crack down. Nevertheless, he and thirty-three other Muslim Brothers were arrested two days into the protests. El-Erian has been arrested several times during his career, and once spent eight years in jail. He laughed and said that this was his shortest-ever detention. On the night of Sunday, January 30th, as the Interior Ministry appeared to cease functioning, the prison gates were left open and he walked free.

For decades, politics in the Middle East has been depicted as a choice between dictators and Islamists, and El-Erian was naturally at pains to dispel this assumption. He said that the Brotherhood would not field a candidate in the next Presidential election or contest every constituency in the parliamentary election, and spoke in vague terms of a hope that Egypt might show to the world a different style of democracy��another moderate, tolerant model.� The Muslim Brothers I met on the square conveyed a similar message, but it was hard to know what this party�banned for more than half a century in Egypt and demonized abroad�might do if it had power. The Muslim Brotherhood has �a long-term vision of society, and it has been very consistent,� a Western diplomat told me. �Politics is just part of it.�

As the standoff continued, the protesters became entrenched and emboldened. People made a tent city out of concrete reinforcing rods and plastic sheeting; venders set up braziers for tea and hooked up yards of electrical cable to charge dozens of cell phones at a time; people rearranged the stockpiled stones to spell out anti-Mubarak slogans; new blankets were passed out. There was an abundance of homemade placards. Egyptians have a fine satirical sense; a man held up a sign that said �Leave Already, My Arms Are Tired.� But, after decades of political repression, some protesters seemed to have no idea of the sort of message most suited to being on a placard. Alongside catchy slogans were placards bearing long, bullet-pointed tracts, painstakingly written out�interminable manifestos of grievance and demands.

�There is a psychological barrier of fear in revolution,� the novelist Alaa Al Aswany told me, adding that once the barrier is broken the process is �irreversible.� Aswany, like many on the square, had suffered police harassment. Despite an international literary reputation, he has never been published by the state publishing houses or allowed on Egyptian state television, and the owner of a caf� where he met with young writers each week had been threatened by state security. Aswany is also a practicing dentist, and I spoke with him in his surgery, close to Tahrir Square. �The regime can�t understand that people who were fearful and scared for thirty years are no longer fearful,� he said. He told me that protesters had been teasing him about the title of one of his books, �Why the Egyptian People Do Not Revolt,� saying that he should write a sequel and call it �How the Egyptian People Revolted.� He had addressed the crowds several times. �As a writer, I have written many, many times the words �the people,� but it was for the first time in my life I felt what was the meaning of �the people.� � He told me that he had been very impressed. �They are very organized, very courageous, very civilized, very caring. We eat in the demonstration every day and no one knows exactly who has brought the food. It�s like a big family. I threw a packet of cigarettes on the ground, and a seventy-year-old lady picked it up and said, �Dr. Alaa, please take this and go and put it in the garbage, because we are building a new country and everything should be clean.� �

I met an activist friend of Sherif�s named Ramy Shaath. Half Palestinian and half Egyptian, Shaath had studied war strategy at King�s College, London, and spent time in demonstrations in Lebanon and Palestine during the second intifada. His day job is as a management consultant, but he has amassed experience dealing with barricades and tear gas. �It�s a hobby,� he said, smiling. Shaath�s hobby had made him well known to the authorities. He told me that, on the Friday of Rage, when the police were overwhelmed, he had been tempted to run into the Mogamma and retrieve the security file with his name on it. �I even know which room it�s in�second floor, last on the left!�

On the Internet, Shaath and other activists gathered ideas for countering riot police. He enumerated a few improvised tactics: �How to use vinegar and onions against tear gas. Things like, Don�t use water, use Coke to wipe your eyes.� Referring to the protests in Tunisia which had recently succeeded in deposing the President there, he added, �We got a lot of ideas from Tunisia because a lot of Tunisians were contributing to the blogs.� For the first week of the protests, he had stayed at a different place every night and continually changed his cell-phone numbers. �A few days ago, I stopped,� he told me. He spread his hands out in victorious amusement at such a turn of events. �End of story. Game over. The fear is over!�

I went to see Amre Moussa, the secretary-general of the Arab League and a former foreign minister of Egypt. Together with Nabil Fahmy and other notables, he had joined an informal committee of �wise men� who wanted to help bring the demands of the youth and the people on the square to Vice-President Suleiman. Seventy-four years old, Moussa is vigorous, erudite, and charming. On the square, I had often heard him mentioned as a good man to lead the country. People respected him as an independent elder statesman. Moussa told me, �The square became a place that if you don�t go you have missed a historical moment.� He believed that the regime had initially tried to ride out the storm: �Perhaps some thought that those demonstrators would get tired and fade day after day, week after week, but everyone saw that yesterday there were more people than ever since it began.� Now their efforts at reform were no longer a luxury but had become a �question of necessity.�

In the days after the clashes, the Army tried to exert control. General Roweny could be seen striding up the road toward the Egyptian Museum, behind which the Army had made an impromptu headquarters. Sherif told me that the day after Roweny was tearing off bandages he returned with an Egyptian news crew and again confronted Sherif and his band of medics. He told them to go home and �end this silly business.� Sherif replied, �You call the blood of Egyptians silly business!� Roweny told Sherif that the Army was resolved to clear the square, because it wanted to resume normal traffic circulation the next day. �We can�t use violence, but we can be very tough with people,� he warned. Sherif asked what he meant by tough. �Like from a father to a child,� Roweny replied, smiling and answering questions in front of the TV cameras. Afterward, he addressed the crowds in the square, telling them, �You all have the right to express yourselves, but please save what is left of Egypt.� The crowd, cheering, responded that Hosni Mubarak should leave. Roweny abandoned his speech, saying, �I will not speak amid such chants.�

At one point, the Army tried to push a line of tanks farther into the square, near the Egyptian Museum. But the protesters staged a sit-in under the tanks. I sat down among them and talked to a man whose body was scaly with psoriasis. He came from a small village not far from Cairo and worked in a lowly capacity for the local municipality. He said that his salary of seven hundred Egyptian pounds (around a hundred and twenty dollars) was not enough to feed his family and pay for treatment for his skin complaint. He tried to explain the situation: �The Army is trying to tighten the space and get people farther into the square.� When I returned the next day, the protesters had settled in, storing sandwiches and blankets in the niches between the tank wheels and tracks, sleeping under the turrets, and praying five times a day in neat rows. When the tanks had first arrived, the protesters had eyed them like mysterious beasts; they now seemed tamed. Parents would stand their children on top of them and take photographs. The soldiers pretended not to mind this domestication.

The Army, though ostensibly neutral, was obviously invested in the status quo. After Mubarak fired most of his Cabinet, in the first days of the protests, the military establishment found itself in control of the key posts of government. Suleiman, the former head of military intelligence, was Vice-President, and Ahmed Shafik, a former head of the Air Force (as Mubarak himself was), became the new Prime Minister. Meanwhile, Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi remained in the position he had held for almost twenty years, Minister of Defense and Military Production. Initially, this triumvirate seemed to form a Praetorian guard around the regime; they were all military men, all in or nearing their seventies, and all close to Mubarak. At the time, the Western diplomat told me that there were no significant differences between Suleiman and his President; that the regime thought it could ride the protests out; and that Mubarak would hold fast to the idea that the protests were the work of foreign machination��a rock-solid point of view that we have seen from him for many years.� Tantawi, the diplomat hoped, would continue to cleave to the Army�s policy of nonviolence: �Yes, he�s a product of the regime and he�s perfectly happy to arrest people, but he�s not going to shoot them.�

It now seems likely that there were always differences between the military establishment and the most loyal elements of the regime�Mubarak�s inner circle, the Interior Ministry and the police, N.D.P. strongmen, and the domestic security services. It is perhaps for this reason that, in the days that followed, the pronouncements of the military triumvirate, like the mercurial behavior of General Roweny on the square, seemed to veer between conciliation and impatient threats. After the clashes with pro-Mubarak crowds, Prime Minister Shafik apologized for the violence on national TV, and there was an effort at dialogue between the Vice-President and some of the opposition groups. But, only a few days later, Suleiman seemed to threaten a martial crackdown. At the time, it was hard to see where the balance of power lay between the regime and the security and military establishments, but throughout the protests in Cairo there were two constants that proved decisive: the Army never fired on the protesters, and it never prevented people from coming onto the square.

The military establishment had never liked Mubarak�s son Gamal, widely despised as being at the center of a group of cronies who cashed in on liberal economic reforms of the past decade. In recent years, senior officers had expressed discomfort with his implicit anointment as heir. When Mubarak appointed Suleiman as Vice-President, traditionally the position occupied by a successor, they may have been satisfied. But the crowds on the square were not, and, in the days that followed, they managed, through their numbers, and by continually reiterating their trust in the Army, to co�pt the military as a reluctant revolutionary partner.

In the second week of protests, beyond the square, Cairo returned to work. Banks reopened, and the roads resumed their customary state of honking gridlock. And yet the numbers on the square continued to grow. At lunchtime and after work, people streamed in to take part in this phenomenon of freedom. It seemed that everyone I talked to insisted that they had been there since the first day. �People are trying to join the circus,� one activist said, laughing.

Sherif went back to work, too, but returned each afternoon to his friends on the square. After his first day back in the �real world,� as he described it�wondering what the real world was anymore�he admitted that he had been �very down. It has started to settle in, all the bloodshed.� But being among his new friends�none of the volunteer medics on Tahrir had known one another before the protests�had cheered him up. �It�s amazing how peaceful it is here, and outside is all the hustle and bustle. I walked through the square, and it gives you hope, that this is not all for nothing, that something is going to happen.� He was beginning to go to activist meetings, groups of young people who had met on the square or who knew one another through the blogosphere, to discuss how to go forward. �The lack of leadership is a positive and a negative,� he had said at one point, �but it shows that this really is a revolution of the people.�

We discussed possible leaders. None of the opposition parties had been able to garner any significant support among the protesters. Most seemed well-meaning but amateurish, and were headed by an older generation. I mentioned Mohamed ElBaradei, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate, who had returned to Egypt from Vienna, where he lives, and quickly became associated with the protests. Sherif, like many on the square, was unimpressed: �Baradei? Where is he? He came to the square for four or five minutes and then left. My sister says he�s on the news channels every five minutes, saying, I did this and I did that and I said all that and I predicted that. But he�s been in Vienna this whole time.�

Without a clear leader or a dominant ideology, the square had become a kind of speakers� corner. A veiled woman told of her dream of the Prophet Muhammad circling the square; a psychiatrist held a small crowd spellbound with his theory that Mubarak was a psychopath. People pressed photocopied manifestos into my hands and asked me why President Obama was equivocating. Everyone had become an expert on the Egyptian constitution and the clauses that set the criteria for Presidential and parliamentary candidates. They talked about the Turkey model, with the military as the guarantor of the state. Sherif remarked that the square had become like a university of political science��the rate of learning is incredible for everyone.� He wanted to be involved. �We can�t let the blood of the martyrs and the injured go to waste. They were killed for a cause, and we have to go through with it. I can�t go back to my normal life as if nothing had happened.�

Against this background of expectant fervor, on February 10th everyone�the C.I.A., CNN, the head of the N.D.P., the Egyptian Prime Minister, Barack Obama, and even the bandage-pulling General Roweny, who told the crowds, �All your demands will be met today��believed that Mubarak would announce that he was stepping down. There was a rainstorm at lunchtime, a sign of good luck in a desert country, and afterward a rainbow came out and was tweeted all over the world.

At 10:45 P.M., Mubarak began to speak, and the crowd went quiet. Mohamed, my translator, had gone home, to attend his brother�s engagement party, and so I understood the speech largely through the crowd�s reaction to it. Mubarak�s voice echoed amid loudspeakers on the square�scratchy, low, stentorian, and occasionally inflected with a twang of feedback. People listened on cell phones, and in the tents at the center of the square dozens of heads were bent over the glow of a laptop screen. Gradually, the faces of those around me grew stony as people realized that they had heard this speech before. About halfway through, a hissing exhalation of disbelief rose up. I later found that this was at the moment when Mubarak patronizingly reminded his listeners that he had once been young himself. From then on, people stopped listening. They cradled their heads in their hands, silent with shock and despair. One by one, they held up their shoes in the air in contempt. And, when Mubarak finished speaking, there was a great roaring, defiant chant of �Leave! Leave! Leave!� They punched the air in fury. One man behind me screamed and collapsed, sobbing uncontrollably. Someone standing next to me told me that his brother had been killed in the protests. People tried to console him, but he suddenly went berserk, screaming and kicking. Four or five people tried to hold him down but could not control his rage. Behind him, a man prayed with his palms made into fists.

I found Sherif by the field clinic next to the barricade. He was wearing an Egyptian-flag bandanna around his head. His expression was uncomprehending and blankly exhausted. �I�m not sure if he gets it,� he said. He was trying to fathom Mubarak�s gargantuan level of denial. �We were already celebrating and now��he cut the air with his hand��no one knows what�s happening.� There was a hardness in his face which I had not seen before. He advised me to stay in the hotel tomorrow. �Will it be bad?� I asked. �It�s possible, it�s possible,� he said. �I don�t know what this idiot is going to pull out of his hat.� Sherif decided to spend the night on the square.

Mubarak never actually resigned, and it was left to Omar Suleiman to announce his departure, the next day. On the square, the news was greeted with a wall of whistling cheer and a blur of flags. It was an exultant, unified joy. The traffic lights were showing all their colors simultaneously, like disco gels. Fire flares, apparently made by ignited cans of air freshener, burst in the crowd. There were no sentences, just a word��amazing��repeated over and over. Protesters hugged the soldiers, who climbed out of their tanks and took off their helmets to join the party. I watched someone shake the hand of an officer and proudly take a picture of his small son with the man.

Sherif was not on the square for the announcement and missed the extraordinary scenes, but he saw something ultimately more revealing. That day, crowds had marched peacefully toward the Presidential Palace, at Heliopolis, northeast of Tahrir, and Sherif decided to go there, too. At around four o�clock, a couple of hours before Suleiman�s speech, he was outside the palace, dressing a few wounds. Several tanks were stationed there, their cannons pointing in the direction of the crowd, but, as Sherif watched, the tanks turned their turrets�it seemed, he said, to happen in slow motion�so that the cannons were pointing at the palace. Then the soldiers started waving Egyptian flags and chanting with the crowd, �Egypt! Egypt! The Army and the people are one hand!�

The next morning, I sat in a caf� on the square, talking over the events. Everyone was reading the newspapers, and across the room I saw a news photograph of General Roweny reaching to shake the hand of another officer, against a background of the Tahrir crowd. The man with the paper said it was an old picture, from the times when the Army had first come to the square.

�Is he good?� I asked about Roweny.

�Now, yes!� the man said.

�What about before?�

He waggled his hand in equivocation and grimaced. �Who knows?�

Alaa Al Aswany had told me that he thought the Egyptian revolution would fundamentally change the Middle East paradigm of an apathetic populace oppressed by dictators and retreating into Islam. �We are seeing now the end of the post-independence dictatorships in the Arab world,� he said. �What we see now is the end of this era. Western analysts are totally confused, because it goes far beyond Mr. Mubarak. The political analysts in the West are going to have to throw away their old books.�

That afternoon, I met Mahmoud Zaher, a retired general in Egypt�s military-intelligence apparatus who now fulfilled a role whose contours he was hesitant to define. When I arrived at his home, next to a mosque in a pleasant neighborhood on the left bank of the Nile, he was praying. He was a gracious host, sitting very upright while his son, who, he told me, had been many days on the square, brought glasses of fresh orange juice and cups of Turkish coffee. When I asked questions, his answers tended to skirt specifics, forming themselves into disquisitions on theoretical matters of national history and character. A wry smile would pull in the corners of his mustache, as if he were saying, �Yes, well, of course that�s the obvious question, and I know very well what the answer is, but how can I put it?�

He was no defender of Mubarak, who he felt had �become a corrupt influence for Egypt and the reputation of the military establishment.� He was certain that until the end Mubarak had wanted to use the forces of violence and chaos�possibly by deploying the Republican Guard, which is loyal to the President rather than to the nation�in order to make a crackdown look justified. I asked him if someone in the military had �put him on a helicopter��if the mechanics of what had occurred added up to a coup. He demurred for a moment before replying, �There is a big difference in what can be said and what must be done.� He paused. �What happened is that the very strong and legitimate desire of the people of the revolution of Egypt in this moment became inherent to the military institution.� He said that if a person �reaches a point of insensitivity and is incapable of realizing the right decision at the right time, others need to take his hand.�

He spoke of the Army as �the servant to the people and popular desire,� but he emphasized that the role of the Army in Egypt was not confined to the military sphere, that it was �politically influential and politically involved and politically distinct.� It did not seem that he wanted or expected the situation to change, and he spoke about the possibility that there might in the future be �limitations� to the Egyptian political system �which may cause some outsiders to say that our democracy is different from their democracy.� He expressed the view that whoever became President should have a military background.

On the square, throngs of people were out with brooms, jubilantly cleaning up their country. They carted away loose chunks of paving and piled up the scrap-metal frames of their tents. I saw one man carrying a black garbage bag with a sign across his chest: �Yesterday I was a demonstrator. Today I build Egypt.� I met a couple of young students from the American University in Cairo, carrying brooms. One said that she had been discussing this new community spirit with her father. �We thought people didn�t care,� she said, �and just threw their garbage on the street, but now we see that they just thought it was hopeless�why bother when it�s so dirty. Why not be corrupt when everything is corrupted. But now things have changed, and it�s a different mood overtaking. Even I can�t stop smiling myself.�

I caught up with Sherif and asked him about his group of political activists. They had decided that they would continue to meet and discuss ways in which they could help the country but wouldn�t form a political party. I asked him if he was worried that the Army might take control entirely. He said that there was bound to be chaos in the future and that friends of his had expressed concern. �But I was saying, �Guys, look what we have done already. There�s no impossible.� � Many people celebrating said that there could never be another dictator now that the public had found its political voice. �We know the way to Tahrir Square,� one told me.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:31

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:34

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

So France has welcomed the TNC and supports its goals. I guess this is the first step towards it becomning the official/acknowledged government of Libya?

Also, not sure if it's true , but this

quote:

21:36 In a live call on Al Jazeera, someone who returned from the battle at Ras Lanuf says that troops made up of mercenaries also included women holding children so revolutionaries could not shoot. (Via @ShababLibya)

is despicable.

e: Slight derail; I keep on forgetting, but congrats on becoming a mod Xandu. It happened recently, I think a few days ago, right?

Narmi fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Mar 7, 2011

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:52

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 22, 2024 01:34

Apology: Nov 12, 2005; by Y Kant Ozma Post

A really cool video of a car bomb explosion at the Peugeot factory in Iran:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZBni1Ok73s

Gooo Speed Racer Goooooo! Oh poo poo, Speed, you're on fire!

Pencil in Lebanon on the list of countries that are protesting:

quote:

Beirut protesters demand end to sectarianism
By Middle East correspondent Anne Barker

Posted 1 hour 15 minutes ago

As battles rage in Libya, civil unrest in other parts of the Middle East continues to worsen, with anti-government protests now spreading to Lebanon and violence increasing in Yemen.

Thousands of people in Beirut are demanding an end to the country's sectarian political system.

Protesters say the strict quota system which shares power between Lebanon's different religious groups is the cause of all the country's woes going back decades, including corruption, cronyism and the devastating civil war that lasted 15 years.

The power-sharing deal dates to 1943 and ensures Lebanon's president is a Maronite Christian, the prime minister is a Sunni Muslim and the parliamentary speaker is a Shiite Muslim.

Other government jobs are also allocated according to religious affiliation.

The protesters are demanding the agreement be replaced with a fully secular system of government.

"The people want the fall of the regime," chanted the protesters of all ages as they marched to the headquarters of the state electricity authority.

Some of the banners at the rally read: "Confessionalism is the opium of the masses" and: "Revolt to topple the agents of confessionalism."

Inspired by the success of uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, several groups demanding an end to Lebanon's confessional system sprouted on Facebook.

Sunday's protest came after a smaller one last week, when hundreds of demonstrators braved heavy rain and marched on the state courthouse.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/07/3156644.htm?section=world&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This division of power that they're talking about should go on the other list, the one that's titled "Sounded Like A Fair Idea on Paper". Since there are some large minority groups in Lebanon, there's just no way to divide the power along religious lines without giving some groups a disproportionate amount of power. It's also not fair to go to majority rule, since the large minority groups would then be disenfranchised. A secular government sounds like a good idea for Lebanon.

I don't know what it is about looting that appeals to me. Nothing that they take is going to keep them fed over the next few weeks and months, since nobody has any money to buy the looted items from the looters. Still, it tickles me every time it happens, no matter where it is.

quote:

Ivorian politicians' houses looted
Homes of UN-recognised leader Ouattara's officials and supporters ransacked and property carted away.
Last Modified: 06 Mar 2011 21:56 GMT

Ouattara, second from left in a suit, is recognised by the UN as the winner of the November 28 elections [AFP]
Armed men aided by police have ransacked about a dozen houses in Cote d'Ivoire's commercial city, Abidjan, carting away property belonging to officials allied with the country's internationally recognised president, witnesses say.

The looting happened on Sunday as heavy fighting broke out in the country's west.

Cote d'Ivoire has been in turmoil since the disputed election of November 28, which saw Laurent Gbagbo clinging to power claiming he won the election although Alassane Ouattara, his main rival, is recognised by the United Nations as the winner.

A witness reported seeing a pickup van belonging to the elite paramilitary police force CECOS leaving the house belonging to Ouattara's finance minister on Saturday.

The CECOS vehicle was loaded down with a refrigerator and it later returned to the house owned by Charles Koffi Diby, leaving a second time with a large safe, said the witness.

Dozens of teenagers smashed the doors and windows of the house and later left wearing suits and robes, carrying dishes and other valuables, said the witness, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution.

Ouattara women's-issues adviser, Ami Toungara, was among those whose houses were looted. She said the police were targeting people they know to be at the Golf Hotel - where Quattara is holed up - and unable to protect their houses.

Toungara said that after the valuables were taken from her house on Friday, the looters made off with tanks of cooking gas and bags of rice.

"They stole a back massager and we later found it in the garden," she said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113620246797131.html

I can just imagine the conversation regarding the back massager:

"My back hurts from carrying that TV away, Amadou."

"Here, I found a back massager, let's take it, Alain."

"What, are you crazy? We haven't had power for a week. Where are we going to plug it in? Put that thing down. Let's take the propane tanks and a bag of rice instead, at least we'll eat for a few days."

"Okay." <abandons the massager in the back yard of the mansion>

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:59

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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