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Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

The EU is heading towards establishing formal ties with the NTC:

quote:

Members of the European parliament are calling on the EU foreign policy chief Baroness Ashton to establish formal relations with Libya's rebel National Transitional Council. A non-binding resolution to that effect is expected to be passed in the parliament tomorrow with a large majority, and the parliament expects Baroness Ashton to present the proposal to a European summit in Brussels on Friday. But Ms Ashton says it's up to member states to decide whether to recognise the TNC.

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Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Bit more on the flights:

quote:

Al-Jazeera suggest that at least one of the flights might taking a Libyan delegation to negotiate with the Arab League, which is based in Cairo. A meeting of the Arab League is due to take place on Saturday but the league has ruled out any Libyan participation.

The news station's Rawya Rageh has been tweeting that all three planes are now headed to Egypt:

quote:

The #Gaddafi family jet that landed in #Egypt had a military official on board who'll be meeting with Egypt's military rulers #Libya #Feb17

The two other #Gaddafi family jets that were initially headed to Europe now re-routed to #Egypt, as well #Libya #Feb17

quote:

An update on the Libyan jet that has arrived in Cairo from AP:

quote:

An Egyptian airport official says a high-ranking member of the Libyan government has landed in Cairo saying he has a message from Muammar Gaddafi.
The official told The Associated Press that the head of Libya's logistics and supply authority arrived on a private jet Wednesday afternoon. Libyan embassy staff told Egyptian officials that Major Gen Abdul-Rahman bin Ali al-Saiid al-Zawi was carrying a message from Gaddafi.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Zawiyah

quote:

11:48am GMT
The BBC has spoken to a man whose family is in Zawiya and was supporting the uprising, but he says they have now left the city and are hiding. Those family members who had been fighting in previous battles think "there is nothing they can do against 50 tanks and more than 100 armoured vehicles".

quote:

1:13pm GMT
The BBC's Wyre Davies in Tripoli says the Gaddafi regime has been throwing everything at Zawiya. If it falls, he says, it's a significant gain for the Gaddafi forces. He says the regime is talking in a confident and upbeat mood. If help comes for those fighting Col Gaddafi, it could be too late in some respects, he adds.

Benghazi

quote:

11:25am GMT
Chris McGreal, in Benghazi, has been gauging the mood of the opposition forces. He says the bombardment over recent days has convinced the Libyan transitional national council that its forces are in for a protracted battle and of the need for foreign intervention but they are still adamant that they are not engaged in a civil war:

quote:

Certainly the euphoria of the early days when the rebels pushed hundreds of km towards Tripoli and they thought that Gaddafi might fall within days, those days have gone. They realise that he's going to fight on if he can and not only has the push towards Tripoli stalled, but it's been reversed. They realise it's going to be a long struggle...

They're looking increasingly to foreign governments to support them with no-fly zones, discussion of whether there will be weapons supplied, recognition of the revolutionary council as the legitimate government.

At the moment the revolutionary council decided that they're not regarding it as a civil war. They say that they see Gaddafi trying to to create a civil war in order to justify bombing cities.

Ras Lanuf

quote:

11:35am GMT
AFP is reporting more heavy shelling from the front between pro- and anti-Gaddafi forces just west of the oil port of Ras Lanuf. Aircraft heard flying overhead.

quote:

12:32pm GMT
The BBC has spoken to Matog, a man in Ras Lanuf, who says he is part of a group of young men in their early twenties "determined to make our way to Tripoli following behind the army".

Matog told the BBC: "We are waiting for the army to push forward so that we can go after them. We started in Tobruk, then moved to Benghazi. Sirte is going to be the next big clash. We do this because that's how we provide moral support to the army. When they see this support - that makes boosts their morale. But we also take part in fights. We were the ones who got rid of the police in Tobruk. They were shooting at us with live bullets and we were throwing stones at them. Five people died in front of me on 18 February."

Matog says people are going back and forth with ammunition, food and blankets. He adds: "What everyone is hoping for is a no-fly zone, which would make it easy for the army to move forward. If that happens, we are confident we'd be knocking on Gaddafi's door in two or three days. I never thought I'd see the things I am seeing. It's brutal - seeing the clashes, people dying in front of you, overwhelmed hospitals. What you see on the TV can't compare to the real picture. We are looking for freedom, that's what everyone wants. I won't leave until Gaddafi leaves. He has to kill every young man before he can continue ruling the country."

quote:

12:41pm GMT
A fighter jet has been circling over Ras Lanuf but there have been no major clashes so far, reports Reuters. It says opposition forces have been staging periodic hit-and-run attacks on dug-in troops loyal to Gaddafi in the east of the country and resupplied their own frontline with guns and ammunition.

quote:

A warplane circled a rebel checkpoint at the main gate to the rebel-held oil town of Ras Lanuf which has sustained repeated air strikes in the past days. There were six anti-aircraft guns, two mortar launchers and boxes of ammunition at the gate waiting to go forward. One fighter was carefully assembling home-made bombs with small fuses and tins of TNT explosive.

"We're in a defensive position right now because of the heavy artillery ahead. We moved forward another five km (three miles)," rebel Colonel Masoud Mohammed.
The threat of heavy artillery and the defensive position was repeated by Colonel Bashir Abdul Qadr.

On Wednesday, there was one rebel army truck mounted with a multiple rocket launcher near the front, which lies along a barren stretch of desert and scrub roughly 550 km (340 miles) east of Tripoli between the towns of Bin Jawad and Ras Lanuf.
A Reuters correspondent also saw an armoured personnel carrier travelling away from the front. Another two sources, unarmed rebel volunteers, said there had been minor skirmishes at the front line at dawn, but no major military confrontations.

quote:

1:17pm GMT
Al Jazeera is showing images of Ras Lanuf, where thick grey smoke is billowing after attacks there. Reports suggest opposition fighters are still holding out despite more air strikes.

quote:

1:24pm GMT
In Ras Lanuf, Al Jazeera images are still showing two huge plumes of smoke which correspondents from the TV channel say could mean the oil terminal has been hit.


Es Sider

quote:

12:51pm GMT
There has been fighting near near the east Libyan oil terminal of Es Sider, reports Reuters:


quote:

"The bombardment is further east from Es Sider, near where the rebels are now. They are firing back with rockets," said Reuters correspondent Mohammed Abbas on the frontline.
He said rebel forces moved out of Es Sider, a town they have controlled, after the bombardment. They have moved out of the town before only to retake it later.
"This is really very heavy bombardment from Gaddafi forces," said Abbas.

quote:

13:27pm GMT
Reuters is reporting on the same attack, saying that it happened near the Es Sider oil terminal after Gaddafi's forces launched a heavy bombardment on rebel troops. A Reuters correspondent, Mohammed Abbas, said one of the smoke columns "was the biggest plume of smoke I've seen in the conflict so far, and is not dissipating."

Misrata

quote:

11:55am GMT
The BBC has also spoken to a rebel and a doctor in Misrata. The rebel said Misrata was calm but tense, amid fears there will be another attack by pro-Gaddafi forces. He said people can't send or receive text messages - they think phones are being monitored and SIM cards are being cancelled, but he has secured internet access through satellite links.

The doctor in Misrata says medical staff there have been working 24 hours. They are running low on medical supplies like anaesthetics and milk for children.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Well Gaddafi's forces just managed to reduce the importance of one location:

quote:

Forces loyal to Gaddafi hit storage tanks in the oil terminal of Es Sider in east Libya on Wednesday during a heavy bombardment of rebels in the area, rebel fighters told Reuters:

quote:

Big, black plumes of smoke rose above the terminal. It was not immediately possible to independently confirm the report that the storage tanks were hit or to ascertain if the cause was the bombardment by Gaddafi's forces or a stray rebel rocket. "We were standing over there in the direction of Es Sider. It was a fierce, random bombardment on us and then it hit the storage tanks," rebel fighter Abdel Salam Mohamed told Reuters.

Es Sider is about 10-15km West on the road from Ras Lanuf to Sirte. I find it very hard to imagine they are purposely destroying oil facilities if they plan to recapture them.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

quote:

The home of Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, in Hampstead Garden Suburb, north London, has been occupied by squatters showing solidarity for the Libyan revolution, according to the local paper, the Hampstead and Highgate Express.

The squatters are going to be harder to remove than the rebels in the east. I'm not even sure he can start the very long, complex and costly removal process without coming to the UK.

Also, another example of State TV being disgusting:

quote:

Libyan state TV reports that Zawiya residents are holding massive rallies of support for Col Gaddafi.

Currently Zawiya is being blown to pieces by Gaddafi's troops.

Jamsque
May 31, 2009
CNN has a breaking news banner about people with machetes attacking pro-democracy protesters in Tahrir Square, has anyone heard anything about that? I can't understand why that would be happening now.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

This is the story from AFP

quote:

Pro-democracy activists attacked in Cairo

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

CAIRO — Attackers armed with knives and machetes on Wednesday waded into hundreds of pro-democracy activists in Cairo's Tahrir Square, state TV said, as insecurity raged in post-revolutionary Egypt.

"Hundreds of men carrying knives and swords entered Tahrir," the presenter said, as footage showed rocks being thrown and hundreds being chased away from Tahrir Square, the epicentre of protests that toppled strongman Hosni Mubarak.

The clashes took place as the newly appointed cabinet met with the ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces to propose a law criminalising incitement to hatred, which could lead to the death penalty, state TV said.

The military rulers were struggling to bring calm on several fronts, as clashes between Coptic Christians and Muslims in the working class area of Moqattam left 10 dead and scores wounded, the health ministry said.

Insecurity has been rife after police disappeared from the streets during protests that toppled former president Hosni Mubarak, who had ruled Egypt for 30 years under emergency law.

Earlier the Muslim Brotherhood, the country's largest opposition group, blamed diehards of Mubarak's regime for inciting violence -- a view widely shared across the country.

Slantedfloors
Apr 29, 2008

Wait, What?
From what's been going on recently, it's probably the remnants of the Security Service trying to intimidate and terrify people into not reading all of their files that have been made public.

Ham
Apr 30, 2009

You're BALD!
The protesters in Tahrir Square are calling for the the dissolvement of the State Security apparatus which handled issues such as islamist groups, political action etc.

Right now it's widely believed the clashes between christians and salafis yesterday were caused by the state security trying to instigate violence in the country.

Reports so far say the attackers are state security officers trying to drive out the protesters' calling for their arrests.

Jut
May 16, 2005

by Ralp

Slantedfloors posted:

From what's been going on recently, it's probably the remnants of the Security Service trying to intimidate and terrify people into not reading all of their files that have been made public.

Similar clashes happened in Romania following the revolution.

Now I may be alone in thinking this, but I'm starting to think that international involvement in Libya would be a very bad thing (i.e. a no-fly zone). If we put aside views of 'good' and 'evil', and personal feelings on how we feel about CQ or the rebels, what we are left with is a country in the middle of a civil war (and now that the anti-G side have taken up arms, it's moved from protesting into a civil war). By enforcing a no-fly zone we are effectively taking sides in a conflict and assisting in the toppling of a regime.
The international community would be better off taking care of the humanitarian issues (looking after refugees, etc...), and trying to get the two sides to the negotiating table.

Jut fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Mar 9, 2011

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

I remember reading about something like that happening in Tunisia as well.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Jamsque posted:

CNN has a breaking news banner about people with machetes attacking pro-democracy protesters in Tahrir Square, has anyone heard anything about that? I can't understand why that would be happening now.
There's always some who remain loyal to the fallen regime and will try to turn the tide if possible. After a party has held all power for decades it would be surprising if there WEREN'T people trying to bring it back. Like the post-Soviet neo-Stalinists in Russia, or Iraqi Ba'athists:

New York Times posted:

Published: December 17, 2008

BAGHDAD — Up to 35 officials in the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior ranking as high as general have been arrested over the past three days with some of them accused of quietly working to reconstitute Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party, according to senior security officials in Baghdad.

The arrests, confirmed by officials from the Ministries of the Interior and National Security as well as the prime minister’s office, included four generals. The officials also said that the arrests had come at the hand of an elite counterterrorism force that reports directly to the office of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

The involvement of the counterterrorism unit speaks to the seriousness of the accusations, and several officials from the Ministries of the Interior and National Security said that some of those arrested were in the early stages of planning a coup.

Slantedfloors
Apr 29, 2008

Wait, What?

Brown Moses posted:

I remember reading about something like that happening in Tunisia as well.

It's pretty common whenever a dictatorship falls.

As it turns out, keeping meticulous records about who you've brutally tortured and signing their death warrant in triplicate is a really good way of getting convicted when the regime topples.

Jut
May 16, 2005

by Ralp

Nenonen posted:

There's always some who remain loyal to the fallen regime and will try to turn the tide if possible. After a party has held all power for decades it would be surprising if there WEREN'T people trying to bring it back. Like the post-Soviet neo-Stalinists in Russia, or Iraqi Ba'athists:

Ironically in Romania, it was the transitional Government which used the Security Service and shipped in thugs to put down anti-communist protests following the removal of Ceausescu as part of a power grab.

spikenigma
Nov 13, 2005

by Ralp
I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power?

Slantedfloors
Apr 29, 2008

Wait, What?

spikenigma posted:

I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power?

Not much? He's won some victories in the West, largely by flattening an entire city with artillery and sending in nearly the entirety of his remaining military forces, but the East has been lost entirely and are far better equipped than the isolated rebel pockets in the West.

There are daily reports of skirmishes, most of which typically end with Ghadaffi's forces retreating or being captured. The rebels are gradually building up an actual army, and even in it's half-formed state they're beginning to overrun important cities and towns on the way to Tripoli.

Even ignoring all that, the very fact that Ghadaffi has lost this much control has spelled out the death of his regime. Even if he somehow wins militarily, he'll be remembered for murdering his citizens wholesale and it won't be long before some servant or bodyguard or passerby or trusted friend puts a bullet in him for what he's done. There have been people who've served him closely for decades denouncing him as a tyrant - if he somehow manages to pull off a win, he'll still have lost all credibility.

Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Mar 9, 2011

big fat retard
Nov 11, 2003
I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

spikenigma posted:

I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power?

Zero. It's not a matter of "if", but "when" he falls and how much damage he does to Libya's future in the process.

If the OIC, the UN, and Libyan rebels request outside military assistance, then i see no problem taking sides this civil war. We took sides against the Serbs and in favor of Kosovo, and the knee-jerk anti-interventionists looked really stupid.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

THE HORSES rear end posted:

If the OIC, the UN, and Libyan rebels request outside military assistance, then i see no problem taking sides this civil war. We took sides against the Serbs and in favor of Kosovo, and the knee-jerk anti-interventionists looked really stupid.

I hope you're not seriously using the Kosovo war as an example of how, why and when armed interventions should be done, while accusing Libyan armed forces of bombing civilians. :wtc:

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

A lot of the doom and gloom surrounding Libya at the moment is because it's become clear that the rebels just can't march all the way to Tripoli in a week and finish everything off.

The thing is, the rebels still control half the country, including much of the oil industry, airports and docks, they've got pretty much the entire international community behind them, and instead of rushing forwards they are now preparing for a long campaign against Gaddafi. This means they are building defenses and supply stockpiles in the areas they control, which reduces the chance of them overstretching their supply lines and their forces being rolled back by an effective counter-attack.

Gaddafi on the other hand is spending a lot of time and resources trying to capture Zawiya, and even then he'll need to occupy it with loyal troops, which he hasn't got a huge supply of, and then move onto Misarata where he'll face the same sort of resistance. His current tactic is surrounding a city or town, then wearing down the rebels, but once he starts pushing east he won't have that option, and will pretty much need to flatten any city he plans to take over. Today has already shown the problem with shelling and bombing cities, you end up hitting key installations that Gaddafi needs, as happened near Sirte today with an oil installation.

The two sides are in a deadlock at the moment, but the thing is, Gaddafi is losing everything, and the rebels started with nothing and have everything to gain. Whatever happens, Gaddafi has turned into a revilled monster, and for a man who less than a month ago was the darling of the west that's a pretty big fall.

King Dopplepopolos
Aug 3, 2007

Give us a raise, loser!

spikenigma posted:

I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power?

I'm probably just echoing what others have said, but there isn't much chance of that, and even if he did win, with everything that's happened, it would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. It seems very marginally more likely, though still next to impossible, that Libya will be split in half, with the west controlled by Qadaffi and the east controlled by the rebels, for the foreseeable future, like North and South Korea.

Ham
Apr 30, 2009

You're BALD!
Video of Amr Moussa in a public event last night. People start criticizing him about issues such as his inaction throughout 30 years in power, his support of Mubarak, etc.

Don't think he'll be doing that again anytime soon.

Narmi
Feb 26, 2008

spikenigma posted:

I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power?

From all accounts he will literally have to burn more than half his country to the ground (cities, institutions, officials, the military, tribes, etc.) and return to being an international pariah to stay in power. Like others have said, it would a win only in the sense that there would be none left to oppose him.

To do that however, he needs to defeat the aforementioned rebels, and that scenario is more than fairly unlikely - his forces, already committed to capturing/destroying Zawiya, would be stretched too thin to meet the rebels in the east. Eeven if he took his forces out of Zawiya once the city is satisfactorily annihilated, this would leave him relatively unprotected, and as he doesn't control all of the west just yet that's probably something he doesn't want to do.

There is also the fact that his resources are probably starting to disappear by now (and I'm not talking about just munitions - Libya is a huge importer of food to meet their needs) and nobody wants to trade with him, while in the east those standing up to him are receiving international aid. There's also talk about putting Libyan oil revenue in an escrow (I'm not sure what'll come of this, it might just be talk, but who knows), which would cut of the money that he needs to pay his troops/mercenaries (also, it'd mean that even if he did find another African dictator to trade with, he'd eventually have nothing to pay them with), which makes him holding out for an extended duration even more unlikely.

spikenigma
Nov 13, 2005

by Ralp

King Dopplepopolos posted:

I'm probably just echoing what others have said, but there isn't much chance of that, and even if he did win, with everything that's happened, it would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. It seems very marginally more likely, though still next to impossible, that Libya will be split in half, with the west controlled by Qadaffi and the east controlled by the rebels, for the foreseeable future, like North and South Korea.

That's what I'm afraid of.

We all like to laugh at North Korea and "Dear Leader can lift 10^8 tons with his flaccid cock..." propoganda, but they have concentration camps and the like.

If Ghaddafi settles down to control the East and resumes exports and international relations (he has oil) , I can see him stamping out any sniff of a future uprising (read anybody who looks at him funny) with extreme brutality.

I mean if you are willing to use anti-aircraft guns on your own people, you're willing to murder in the 6-figures at least at the drop of a hat.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Ras Lanuf

quote:

1:41pm GMT
I reported earlier that the hospital in the eastern oil town of Ras Lanuf has been evacuated. Apparently, it has been evacuated because the water to the town was cut by yesterday's bombing and not because of an increased military threat as originally believed.

quote:

2:12pm GMT
At least three bombs have been dropped on an oil terminal outside Ras Lanuf has been hit by at least three bombs, al-Jazeera's Jacky Rowland reports. The images on television show a huge plume of smoke coming out of the oil terminal. Rowland says there is "intense fighting" in the oil port.

quote:

2:42pm GMT
Libyan state TV reports: "Armed gangs bomb Ras Lanuf's petroleum storage tanks as they withdraw under the pressure of the armed forces."

quote:

2:47pm GMT
Another tweet on fires at al-Sidr, which is just outside Ras Lanuf.CNN's Ben Wedeman tweets: "At least one oil storage tank in the western town of al-Sidr is on fire now, causing a massive black plume over the surrounding area #Libya"

quote:

2:56 GMT
Scores of rebels have been retreating in vehicles back to the oil port of Ras Lanuf following sustained artillery and air strikes, AFP reports.

quote:

2:58pm GMT
Apparently, Libyan state TV is claiming that al-Qaida bombed the oil terminal near Ras Lanuf, in its latest piece of propoganda. Al-Jazeera reported at least three bombs were dropped on the facility by Gaddafi's forces.

quote:

3:05pm GMT
So, just to clarify on those reports of attacks and fires at oil facilities near Ras Lanuf, both pro- and anti-Gaddafi forces are accusing each other of targeting the storage tanks. Rebels have also accused pro-Gaddafi forces of hitting an oil pipeline leading to the area.

quote:

3:49pm
A BBC correspondent in Ras Lanuf reports that clashes there between pro- and anti-Gaddafi forces have left at least two dead and 17 injured. Our reporter says there is confusion among rebels, and there are many ambulances at the site of an oil storage facility explosion.

Bin Jawad

quote:

1:53pm GMT
Opposition group Libyan Young Movement tweets: "Revolutionaries in high spirits head towards Bin Jawad, the fight is now just west of Ras Lanuf #Libya #Feb17 #gaddaficrimes"

quote:

2:56pm GMT
There has been more fighting in Bin Jawad - the town the government claimed to have retaken over the weekend - according to al-Jazeera. It reports that the fighting is for control of the western parts of the town and a plane has been flying overhead.

@Libyanfsl tweets (translation from Arabic):

quote:

February 17 rebels entered the city of heroes Bin Jawad after the arrival of the supply of Libyan troops #Feb17 #Libya

quote:

3:27pm
The opposition movement has claimed it is in back in control of Bin Jawad, which the government claimed to have retaken over the weekend, Reuters reports:

quote:

The rebel movement announced via loudspeakers in the centre of Benghazi that rebels now controlled Bin Jawad, a town near the front between rebels and Muammar Gaddafi's forces about 550 km (340 miles) east of Tripoli. Crowds in Benghazi cheered.
A Reuters correspondent at the frontline, who spoke to rebels, said their fighters had moved forward towards Bin Jawad from the town of Ras Lanuf after a heavy exchange of fire. But one rebel back from the front said they had not reached Bin Jawad.

quote:

4:21pm
Hafiz Ghoga, a spokesman for the Benghazi-based National Libyan Council, Hafiz Ghoga, has told a news conference that opposition fighters have come under heavy fire in Bin Jawad. He said:

quote:

The revolutionary forces have entered Bin Jawad and are now being subjected to heavy artillery and air attack.

Near the frontline, rebel fighter Alamin Mashesh told Reuters: "I was just in Bin Jawad. We took it and now we are in control ... We just burned five tanks with missiles and rocket propelled grenades."

Another opposition fighter, rebel Abdel Karim Mustafa, gestured to show uncertainty when asked if it was under rebel control. "We just went into Bin Jawad, but there are air strikes," he said.

Zawiyah

quote:

1:39pm GMT
Libyan state TV reports that Zawiya residents are holding massive rallies of support for Col Gaddafi.

quote:

2:40pm GMT
The Libyan TV reports of pro-Gaddafi rallies in "liberated" Zawiya contrast starkly with eyewitness accounts of a city still under seige in which at least the central square was still held by rebels.

quote:

3:08pm GMT
A government spokesman in Tripoli has claimed there are 40 opposition fighters remaining in Zawiyah, at most.

quote:

"Maybe 30-40 people, hiding in the streets and in the cemetery. They are desperate," he told Reuters.

But Khaeri Aboshagor, spokesman for the London-based Libyan League for Human Rights, said the town might prove hard to control entirely.

quote:

"If they have taken the square, the resistance might diminish - it's a symbolic place, and you could say whoever holds the square holds the town - but they will keep fighting. It's a very spread out town and you can't just hold it with 50 tanks and some pickup trucks."

quote:

3:15pm GMT
Libyan state TV has interviewed people it says are residents of Zawiya. One old woman says: "Ever since Muammar [Gaddafi] came [into power] and we have seen nothing but happiness and well-being. May God protect him."

quote:

3:23 GMT
Libyan state TV is reporting that pro-Gaddafi groups are moving towards the centre of Zawiya, but has not shown footage of such movements. Earlier reports said rebels were still holding out in the centre of the city, which has been under heavy attack by Col Gaddafi's forces for several days.

quote:

4:37pm GMT
Al Jazeera TV is reporting that several of Gaddafi's soldiers have been killed in the Libyan town of Zawiya, including a general and a colonel, according to Reuters.

Misarata

quote:

2:08pm GMT
For a rare inside view of what's happening in Misrata, the BBC news website has an eyewitness piece from Mohammed, who says he is a member of the civilian body running the town. "We are licking our wounds and preparing our defences," he says.

Benghazi

quote:

2:23pm GMT
The BBC's Pascale Harter in Benghazi says the mood has changed in the rebel-held parts of the country from optimism to grim determination. She says people are holding rallies to try to revive the momentum of the rebellion.

quote:

3:31pm GMT
Rebels in Benghazi have announced through loudspeakers that rebel forces have taken the town of Bin Jawad, according to Reuters. But the report cited one source as saying that rebels had approached Bin Jawad but not yet reached it.

The Gaddafi's

quote:

1:58pm GMT
The home of Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, in Hampstead Garden Suburb, north London, has been occupied by squatters showing solidarity for the Libyan revolution, according to the local paper, the Hampstead and Highgate Express.

quote:

3:34pm
A group calling themselves Topple The Tyrants have occupied the £10m Hampstead Mansion of Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, in solidarity with the Libyan people (see 1452). The mansion is managed by Mr Gaddafi through a holding company registered in the British Virgin Islands.

quote:

15:40pm
A spokesperson for the Topple the Tyrants group said: "We didn't trust the British government to properly seize the Gaddafi regime's corrupt assets, so we took matters into our own hands. The British government only recently stopped actively helping to train the Libyan regime in 'crowd control' techniques," the spokesperson claimed. "As well as training the regime in repression, British corporations are also guilty of providing the same weapons that are now being used by Gaddafi against the Libyan people."

quote:

4:11pm GMT
For more on squatters taking over the London home of Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, read our article here.

Narmi
Feb 26, 2008
I have to admit, the BBC's mapmaking of the Libyan revolution has gotten significantly better,


Click here to view the full image

they're starting to close in on the Guardian, but still have a ways to go.


Click here to view the full image

(both are from March 9, around 1:30 ET)

Scrubed
Oct 3, 2002

I am a Romosexual.
From the CNN front page:


I guess this would be your Libyan mobile turret option.

Jack Napier
Aug 5, 2010

by Ozma
^ They're just skeet-shootin.

Narmi posted:

I have to admit, the BBC's mapmaking of the Libyan revolution has gotten significantly better,


Click here to view the full image

they're starting to close in on the Guardian, but still have a ways to go.


Click here to view the full image

(both are from March 9, around 1:30 ET)

The Guardian is just more adept at using Microsoft Visio.

Jack Napier fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 9, 2011

Lareous
Feb 19, 2008

Scrubed posted:

From the CNN front page:


I guess this would be your Libyan mobile turret option.

It's nice to see Office Depot taking action and deploying their anti-aircraft capabilities when the rest of the world can't make their mind up.

EDIT: Bigger version.

Nuclear Spoon
Aug 18, 2010

I want to cry out
but I don’t scream and I don’t shout
And I feel so proud
to be alive
I like to think he just enjoys going backwards as a result of the recoil.

Patter Song
Mar 26, 2010

Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.
Fun Shoe

quote:

4:37pm GMT
Al Jazeera TV is reporting that several of Gaddafi's soldiers have been killed in the Libyan town of Zawiya, including a general and a colonel, according to Reuters.

That General must've always chafed at taking orders from Colonel Qaddafi.

Re: endgame, I don't see Qaddafi ever regaining control of Cyrenaica, but I could see him holding on in the west for months at the current rate, or possibly (Qaddafi's best-case scenario) leading a breakaway state (they could call it Tripolitania?).

Slantedfloors
Apr 29, 2008

Wait, What?

Patter Song posted:

Re: endgame, I don't see Qaddafi ever regaining control of Cyrenaica, but I could see him holding on in the west for months at the current rate, or possibly (Qaddafi's best-case scenario) leading a breakaway state (they could call it Tripolitania?).
Since the area he can actually hold onto would basically be his tribe's territory plus some outliers, I could see it actually being called "Ghadaffi" or "Ghadaffiland".

Or possibly "Nutso Fruitloops Wee-Waw Insane Town". They're all fine choices.

Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Outside of the civilian bombings and summary executions, Qaddafi has said and done things that can not be taken back. Considering he publically renounced the Western powers in favor for al Qaeda and now bombed his own oil refineries when even the rebels weren't touching those, if he makes it out of this, he's going to be worse than Saddam.

Scrubed
Oct 3, 2002

I am a Romosexual.

Lareous posted:



Would it be inappropriate to grab the chair, spin it, and yell 'WHEEEEEEEEE'?

He should have brought out the plastic mat too, no way that thing is mobile on concrete.

The Libayan NRA skeet shooting classic.

Qaddafi's Air Force is screwed, they have 100's of these arriving next week from CDW.

Good thing they didnt buy this chair at Ikea or they'd still be putting it together.

:downsrim:

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Nuclear Spoon posted:

I like to think he just enjoys going backwards as a result of the recoil.

It's what in military terms is called "shoot and scoot".

Spiky Ooze
Oct 27, 2005

Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)


click the shit outta^
Now that he's blowing up oil pipelines I'd be surprised if global intervention doesn't start happening.

Jack Napier
Aug 5, 2010

by Ozma

Lareous posted:

It's nice to see Office Depot taking action and deploying their anti-aircraft capabilities when the rest of the world can't make their mind up.

EDIT: Bigger version.



I removed the guy behind him for those that want to turn it into an Av or something:

Hipster_Doofus
Dec 20, 2003

Lovin' every minute of it.

Lareous posted:



Talk about some badly needed comic relief. That is just wonderful. :3:

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Lareous posted:

EDIT: Bigger version.



I absolutely love this photograph. The guy's got a bottle of water and they're wearing baseball caps and jeans and work boots. It's that sort of imagery that really helps people here in the US to identify with the Libyan people. Look at those guys: they could just as easily be in Texas as Libya.

And, it really highlights their predicament and resourcefulness and the nature of the Libyan rebellion. Yes, they've got assault rifles, but they're shooting at aircraft with them. It tells you how outgunned they are, and yet, they seem enthusiastic. The guy with the water, that suggests he's in it for the long haul. He's gonna be shooting at airplanes for hours, better have something to stay hydrated with.

It's impossible to look at that picture and not feel solidarity.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

Guardian posted:

UN paves way for no-fly zone as Nato steps up surveillance of Libya
Nato introduces 24-hour air and sea monitoring as west prepares to act to protect Libyan citizens from Gaddafi's forces

quote:

David Cameron and Barack Obama agreed to draw up "the full spectrum" of military responses to the crisis in Libya as Britain won important US support for a possible no-fly zone over the country.

The prime minister, who has faced accusations that he was isolated over a no-fly zone, agreed in a telephone call with the president that a major international operation will swing into action if Muammar Gaddafi refuses to leave office.

quote:

Nato has launched 24-hour air and sea surveillance of Libya as a possible precursor to a no-fly zone, amid signs of growing Arab support for western military intervention to stop the bombing of civilians.

British and French diplomats at the UN headquarters in New York have completed a draft resolution authorising the creation of a no-fly zone which could be put before the security council within hours if aerial bombing by pro-Gaddafi forces causes mass civilian casualties.

A western diplomat said: "It would require a clear trigger for a resolution to go forward." In such an event, there would be pressure on Russia and China not to use their vetoes. Western officials believe support for a no-fly zone from the Islamic world, as well as from the Libyan opposition and diplomats at the UN, would put Moscow and Beijing on the defensive.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/08/un-no-fly-zone-nato-libya

poo poo getting real-er?

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Apology
Nov 12, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post
Don't get your fingers cut:

quote:

We will cut foreign fingers: Saudi Arabia
Riyadh: 4 hours and 45 minutes ago

Dialogue is the best way to resolve any problems in Saudi Arabia, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal said on Wednesday, adding any foreign interference will not be tolerated.

'The best way to achieve what citizens want is through dialogue whether in the eastern region, or the western, southern and northern regions,' the minister told a news conference.

'The principle of dialogue, I believe, is the best way to address the issues facing society,' he said, warning foreign states not to interfere in Saudi affairs.

'Change will come through the citizens of this kingdom and not through foreign fingers, we don't need them,' he said. 'We will cut any finger that crosses into the kingdom.'

http://www.tradearabia.com/news/LAW_194892.html

I've noticed that Arabs in general seem to have a more flowery style of speech, which often turns into rather overblown rhetoric. Still, it's hard to see the Saudis as more than savages when they start talking about cutting off fingers, especially since part of the Saudi stereotype in the west involves chopping off hands for minor crimes.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that what people in the Middle East and Africa really want is not freedom, but food:

quote:

High Food Prices And Popular Uprisings – Is Ghana At Risk?

Date: 09-Mar-2011

The ongoing popular uprisings in North Africa and the Middle East poses the question if other developing countries, including Ghana, may experience similar or other forms of uprisings in the light of the imminent global food crisis of 2011.

In order to answer this question one needs to look at the underlying drivers for the uprisings in both 2008 and now.

The 2008 Food Crisis

Global riots and unrest

In 2008 riots from Haiti to Bangladesh to Egypt over the soaring costs of basic foods have brought the issue to a boiling point and catapulted it to the forefront of the world's attention.

In April 2008 Jeffrey Sachs, director of Columbia University's Earth Institute said, "This is the world's big story.

In the same month World Bank President Robert Zoellick said that while many are worrying about filling their gas tanks, many others around the world are struggling to fill their stomachs, and it is getting more and more difficult every day.

For days running, parts of Haiti erupted into violence triggered by the soaring cost of food. On April 12, 2008, the Haitian Senate voted to dismiss Prime Minister Jacques-Édouard Alexis after violent food riots hit the country.

Food prices, which have risen 40% on average globally since mid-2007, also caused unrest around the world in 2008.

The price rises affected parts of Asia and Africa particularly severely with Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Senegal, Mauritania, Côte d'Ivoire, Egypt and Morocco seeing protests and riots in late 2007 and early 2008 over the unavailability of basic food staples. Other countries that have seen food riots or are facing related unrest are: Mexico, Bolivia, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and South Africa.

http://news.peacefmonline.com/features/201103/142411.php?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This is a very long and detailed article that lays out the situation for most of the region that is now in turmoil. Nothing has been done to change the situation since the first unrest in 2008. It's very well worth reading.

It's also a halfway decent segue to the Ivory Coast news:

quote:


I.Coast exporters risk cocoa seizure - sector

09 Mar 2011 15:49
Source: Reuters // Reuters

* Exporters given until end-March to ship stocks, pay taxes

* France says Gbagbo decree has no legal bearing

(Adds details, background)

ABIDJAN, March 9 (Reuters) - Ivory Coast cocoa exporters have until the end of March to ship beans they have in stock and pay taxes or risk seizure by Laurent Gbagbo's government, the sector regulator said on Wednesday.

Anoh Gilbert had said earlier there was no plan for now to seize the stocks as part of a decree issued late on Monday under which the state would handle all exports of cocoa from the world's top grower.

Exporters had been concerned that the decree included seizure of about 475,000 tonnes of beans currently in storage, worth some $1.8 billion at current market prices near a 32-year high.

Gilbert said Gbagbo's government expected companies to pay about 60 billion Franc CFA ($127 million) in taxes on about 340,000 tonnes of cocoa by the end of March and taxes on another 100,000 tonnes by the end of June.

"So, if by the end of that date (end-March) we are not paid, we will start a judicial process and we will seize part of the stocks in other to be paid, whether the beans are exported or not," he said.

A power struggle following a disputed election has strangled the cocoa sector of the world's top grower, leaving the cocoa in storage in the country.

France, Britain and the United States have all condemned Gbagbo's move to control the sector as tantamount to theft.

"France condemns this illegal decision by Laurent Gbagbo to expropriate cocoa and coffee companies operating in Ivory Coast," said Bernard Valero, spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry.

"This decision has no legal bearing as it has been made by authorities that have no legitimacy to take decisions on behalf of the Ivory Coast," he said. ($1=473.2 Cfa Franc) (Reporting by Ange Aboa, additional reporting by Vicky Buffery in Paris, writing by Mark John and Jane Baird)

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/icoast-exporters-risk-cocoa-seizure-sector

You see, Europe and the west have encourage Ivorians to grow cocoa and coffee, not food, since it grows so well in their area. Now that there's more cash crops being grown, their food must be imported from grain-growing countries---remember the US' huge corn-farming subsidies, and the way that corn is sneaked into nearly every food product in the US via high fructose corn syrup. Importing food is much less efficient and much more shaky than growing it within your own country. A country that imports a great deal of its food is much less likely to have stockpiles for times of crisis. I could be completely wrong, but I think that we're now seeing worldwide results from the practices of Big Agriculture.

And to highlight my potential wrongness, here's a story from Tunisia in which they're very much celebrating their freedom and not talking about food at all:

(translated from French by Google Chrome)

quote:

Tunisia: the RCD, the former party of Ben Ali, dissolved
Share

09/03/2011 at 10: 44 By Jeune Afrique

The seat of former Democratic Constitutional Rally (RCD) in Tunis.
Abid © Ons
Tunisian justice announced the dissolution of the Constitutional Democratic Rally, the former party of Ben Ali. An explosion of joy accompanied the announcement.

In the hall of the Court of First Instance in Tunis, several hundred people have left their joy Wednesday morning. Justice had announced the dissolution of the Democratic Constitutional Rally (RCD) party of ousted President Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali.

"The court of first instance in Tunis decided to disband the Democratic Constitutional Rally and liquidate its assets and funds," said the ruling.

"RCD releases! "," Tunisia free! "Or" O martyr, we continue the fight "are some of the slogans that have blended, on the bottom of the Tunisian national anthem.

Outside, the crowd, including lawyers in dress and bearing young Tunisian flag, swelled visibly.

Founded by Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in 1988, the RCD had claimed up to two million members. But after the leak of former president in Saudi Arabia , he collapsed like a house of cards. Its political leadership had self-dissolved, he was expelled from the Socialist International, then suspended by the transitional government of any activity on February 6.

But much of Tunisians wanted to disappear entirely this symbol of repression, while a fringe of the political landscape would (and will perhaps always) the rebuilding in a different form .

The Ministry of Finance has been instructed to make the assets of the RCD and its funds.

http://www.jeuneafrique.com/Article/ARTJAWEB20110309103429/ <---this is in French btw

However, the flash point for Tunisia was a man who immolated himself because he could not afford a seller's permit from Ben Ali's corrupt and greedy government, and as a result, could not make a living and feed his children, so maybe, in the long run, food is one of the greater issues.

And don't forget the bread hat in Yemen. I don't think the guy made the bread hat to entertain us. I'm sure he was trying to make a statement.

There's more protests in Oman:

quote:

Wednesday March 9, 2011
Oman Air employees stage demonstration outside HQ
by The Associated Press

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - Dozens of employees of Oman's national airline staged a protest in front of the company's headquarters Sunday, dragging one of the sultanate's most prominent companies into the unrest that has shaken the strategically important Gulf state.

The Oman Air demonstration follows days of protests elsewhere in Oman urging political reforms. The sultanate and the island nation of Bahrain have seen the biggest and most sustained outbursts in the Gulf as part of the Arab world's wave of unrest.

Witnesses said about 100 Oman Air employees began gathering by late morning and were calling for improved working conditions. The state-run carrier's corporate offices are located near the country's main international airport in the capital, Muscat.

Philippe Georgiou, the carrier's chief officer for corporate affairs, said flights were not disrupted by the demonstration. He told The Associated Press the airline is willing to talk with protesters, who come from a number of different departments and have a range of demands, including calls for higher wages.

"The general environment is of people expressing their views ... in the region," he said of the protest's timing.

http://www.dailymail.com/ap/ApWorld/201103090318?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I can't believe I quoted the Daily Mail :blush: On rare occasions they actually report the news I guess.

It's all turning into a big blur of angry people and corrupt dictatorships and monarchies, but wasn't Oman one of the places in which there was an organized hunger strike by some religious leaders? Maybe I'm wrong. I could have sworn it was in one of the more well-off Arab countries; perhaps the hunger strike was in Bahrain.

I don't know if this counts as a protest or not, since it's not clear why the young man went missing:

quote:

Rafiabad youth goes missing
UMER MAQBOOL DAR

Srinagar, Mar 9: Protests erupted in Rafiabad area of north Kashmir’s Baramulla district Wednesday against the disappearance of a local youth.
Early morning hundreds of people including children and women took to streets to protest against the disappearance of Muhammad Yasin Mir son of Ghulam Nabi Mir of Ladoora Rafiabad.
The protesters blocked Handwara-Baramulla road for more than two hours, demanding Yasin’s whereabouts. Talking to Greater Kashmir, Yasin’s father Ghulam Nabi Mir said that his son has not returned home since the evening of March 3.
“He was using my mobile between 7:00 pm and 8:00 pm on that day. He received or called somebody from my phone and then went outside house,” he said, adding that they grew anxious after he didn’t return.
“We searched for him at all places for first two days. After we failed to locate him we lodged a report in police station Sopore and provided them the phone number which he was using, but police have failed to provide any clue about him till date,” he said.
Following the protests, police and civil officials reached the spot and assured the protesters that they would trace the youth.
When contacted, superintendent of police, Sopore, Altaf Ahmed Khan said that police was investigation the matter.

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2011/Mar/10/rafiabad-youth-goes-missing-54.asp?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

People on Twitter seem to think he was disappeared by the police.

This is the "black list" from Yemen, distributed by a group called Youth Revolution. All the people pictured stand accused of killing peaceful protesters. It's unclear what you're supposed to do if you see one of these people:

http://www.adenlife.net/user_images/news/1299674534.jpeg

I'm assuming that "kill them" is not the answer that the Youth Revolution has in mind.

gently caress da police:

quote:

Saudi Shi'ites hold new protest in oil province
Wed Mar 9, 2011 6:45pm GMT
RIYADH, March 9 (Reuters) - Saudi Shi'ites staged another small protest in the kingdom's oil producing Eastern province on Wednesday, defying a ban on demonstrations, witnesses said.

More than 100 mostly young men gathered in the main Shi'ite city of Qatif on the Gulf coast to demand the release of prisoners they say are held without trial, witnesses said.

There was a heavy presence of police in Qatif which is close to Bahrain, scene of large protests by majority Shi'ites against their Sunni rulers.

Shi'ites have staged protests for about two weeks in the east of Saudi Arabia, mainly to demand the release of prisoners.

Saudi Arabia's minority Shi'ites complain of discrimination, saying they often struggle to get senior government jobs and benefits available to other citizens.

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE72826U20110309?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

You go, dawg. Kick the Shi'ite out of them. This one made me laugh because the way the tab is truncated, it says "Saudi Shi'it".

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