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The EU is heading towards establishing formal ties with the NTC:quote:Members of the European parliament are calling on the EU foreign policy chief Baroness Ashton to establish formal relations with Libya's rebel National Transitional Council. A non-binding resolution to that effect is expected to be passed in the parliament tomorrow with a large majority, and the parliament expects Baroness Ashton to present the proposal to a European summit in Brussels on Friday. But Ms Ashton says it's up to member states to decide whether to recognise the TNC.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 12:44 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 11:13 |
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Bit more on the flights:quote:Al-Jazeera suggest that at least one of the flights might taking a Libyan delegation to negotiate with the Arab League, which is based in Cairo. A meeting of the Arab League is due to take place on Saturday but the league has ruled out any Libyan participation. quote:An update on the Libyan jet that has arrived in Cairo from AP:
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 14:11 |
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Zawiyahquote:11:48am GMT quote:1:13pm GMT Benghazi quote:11:25am GMT Ras Lanuf quote:11:35am GMT quote:12:32pm GMT quote:12:41pm GMT quote:1:17pm GMT quote:1:24pm GMT Es Sider quote:12:51pm GMT quote:13:27pm GMT Misrata quote:11:55am GMT
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 14:34 |
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Well Gaddafi's forces just managed to reduce the importance of one location:quote:Forces loyal to Gaddafi hit storage tanks in the oil terminal of Es Sider in east Libya on Wednesday during a heavy bombardment of rebels in the area, rebel fighters told Reuters: Es Sider is about 10-15km West on the road from Ras Lanuf to Sirte. I find it very hard to imagine they are purposely destroying oil facilities if they plan to recapture them.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 14:49 |
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quote:The home of Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, in Hampstead Garden Suburb, north London, has been occupied by squatters showing solidarity for the Libyan revolution, according to the local paper, the Hampstead and Highgate Express. The squatters are going to be harder to remove than the rebels in the east. I'm not even sure he can start the very long, complex and costly removal process without coming to the UK. Also, another example of State TV being disgusting: quote:Libyan state TV reports that Zawiya residents are holding massive rallies of support for Col Gaddafi. Currently Zawiya is being blown to pieces by Gaddafi's troops.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:03 |
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CNN has a breaking news banner about people with machetes attacking pro-democracy protesters in Tahrir Square, has anyone heard anything about that? I can't understand why that would be happening now.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:19 |
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This is the story from AFPquote:Pro-democracy activists attacked in Cairo
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:25 |
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From what's been going on recently, it's probably the remnants of the Security Service trying to intimidate and terrify people into not reading all of their files that have been made public.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:29 |
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The protesters in Tahrir Square are calling for the the dissolvement of the State Security apparatus which handled issues such as islamist groups, political action etc. Right now it's widely believed the clashes between christians and salafis yesterday were caused by the state security trying to instigate violence in the country. Reports so far say the attackers are state security officers trying to drive out the protesters' calling for their arrests.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:30 |
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Slantedfloors posted:From what's been going on recently, it's probably the remnants of the Security Service trying to intimidate and terrify people into not reading all of their files that have been made public. Similar clashes happened in Romania following the revolution. Now I may be alone in thinking this, but I'm starting to think that international involvement in Libya would be a very bad thing (i.e. a no-fly zone). If we put aside views of 'good' and 'evil', and personal feelings on how we feel about CQ or the rebels, what we are left with is a country in the middle of a civil war (and now that the anti-G side have taken up arms, it's moved from protesting into a civil war). By enforcing a no-fly zone we are effectively taking sides in a conflict and assisting in the toppling of a regime. The international community would be better off taking care of the humanitarian issues (looking after refugees, etc...), and trying to get the two sides to the negotiating table. Jut fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Mar 9, 2011 |
# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:42 |
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I remember reading about something like that happening in Tunisia as well.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:43 |
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Jamsque posted:CNN has a breaking news banner about people with machetes attacking pro-democracy protesters in Tahrir Square, has anyone heard anything about that? I can't understand why that would be happening now. New York Times posted:Published: December 17, 2008
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:48 |
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Brown Moses posted:I remember reading about something like that happening in Tunisia as well. It's pretty common whenever a dictatorship falls. As it turns out, keeping meticulous records about who you've brutally tortured and signing their death warrant in triplicate is a really good way of getting convicted when the regime topples.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:49 |
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Nenonen posted:There's always some who remain loyal to the fallen regime and will try to turn the tide if possible. After a party has held all power for decades it would be surprising if there WEREN'T people trying to bring it back. Like the post-Soviet neo-Stalinists in Russia, or Iraqi Ba'athists: Ironically in Romania, it was the transitional Government which used the Security Service and shipped in thugs to put down anti-communist protests following the removal of Ceausescu as part of a power grab.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 15:54 |
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I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power?
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 16:05 |
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spikenigma posted:I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power? Not much? He's won some victories in the West, largely by flattening an entire city with artillery and sending in nearly the entirety of his remaining military forces, but the East has been lost entirely and are far better equipped than the isolated rebel pockets in the West. There are daily reports of skirmishes, most of which typically end with Ghadaffi's forces retreating or being captured. The rebels are gradually building up an actual army, and even in it's half-formed state they're beginning to overrun important cities and towns on the way to Tripoli. Even ignoring all that, the very fact that Ghadaffi has lost this much control has spelled out the death of his regime. Even if he somehow wins militarily, he'll be remembered for murdering his citizens wholesale and it won't be long before some servant or bodyguard or passerby or trusted friend puts a bullet in him for what he's done. There have been people who've served him closely for decades denouncing him as a tyrant - if he somehow manages to pull off a win, he'll still have lost all credibility. Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Mar 9, 2011 |
# ? Mar 9, 2011 16:11 |
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spikenigma posted:I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power? Zero. It's not a matter of "if", but "when" he falls and how much damage he does to Libya's future in the process. If the OIC, the UN, and Libyan rebels request outside military assistance, then i see no problem taking sides this civil war. We took sides against the Serbs and in favor of Kosovo, and the knee-jerk anti-interventionists looked really stupid.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 16:12 |
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THE HORSES rear end posted:If the OIC, the UN, and Libyan rebels request outside military assistance, then i see no problem taking sides this civil war. We took sides against the Serbs and in favor of Kosovo, and the knee-jerk anti-interventionists looked really stupid. I hope you're not seriously using the Kosovo war as an example of how, why and when armed interventions should be done, while accusing Libyan armed forces of bombing civilians.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 16:32 |
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A lot of the doom and gloom surrounding Libya at the moment is because it's become clear that the rebels just can't march all the way to Tripoli in a week and finish everything off. The thing is, the rebels still control half the country, including much of the oil industry, airports and docks, they've got pretty much the entire international community behind them, and instead of rushing forwards they are now preparing for a long campaign against Gaddafi. This means they are building defenses and supply stockpiles in the areas they control, which reduces the chance of them overstretching their supply lines and their forces being rolled back by an effective counter-attack. Gaddafi on the other hand is spending a lot of time and resources trying to capture Zawiya, and even then he'll need to occupy it with loyal troops, which he hasn't got a huge supply of, and then move onto Misarata where he'll face the same sort of resistance. His current tactic is surrounding a city or town, then wearing down the rebels, but once he starts pushing east he won't have that option, and will pretty much need to flatten any city he plans to take over. Today has already shown the problem with shelling and bombing cities, you end up hitting key installations that Gaddafi needs, as happened near Sirte today with an oil installation. The two sides are in a deadlock at the moment, but the thing is, Gaddafi is losing everything, and the rebels started with nothing and have everything to gain. Whatever happens, Gaddafi has turned into a revilled monster, and for a man who less than a month ago was the darling of the west that's a pretty big fall.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 16:47 |
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spikenigma posted:I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power? I'm probably just echoing what others have said, but there isn't much chance of that, and even if he did win, with everything that's happened, it would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. It seems very marginally more likely, though still next to impossible, that Libya will be split in half, with the west controlled by Qadaffi and the east controlled by the rebels, for the foreseeable future, like North and South Korea.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 17:17 |
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Video of Amr Moussa in a public event last night. People start criticizing him about issues such as his inaction throughout 30 years in power, his support of Mubarak, etc. Don't think he'll be doing that again anytime soon.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 17:34 |
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spikenigma posted:I have a horrible sinking feeling. What are the chances of Ghaddafi 'winning' this and remaining in power? From all accounts he will literally have to burn more than half his country to the ground (cities, institutions, officials, the military, tribes, etc.) and return to being an international pariah to stay in power. Like others have said, it would a win only in the sense that there would be none left to oppose him. To do that however, he needs to defeat the aforementioned rebels, and that scenario is more than fairly unlikely - his forces, already committed to capturing/destroying Zawiya, would be stretched too thin to meet the rebels in the east. Eeven if he took his forces out of Zawiya once the city is satisfactorily annihilated, this would leave him relatively unprotected, and as he doesn't control all of the west just yet that's probably something he doesn't want to do. There is also the fact that his resources are probably starting to disappear by now (and I'm not talking about just munitions - Libya is a huge importer of food to meet their needs) and nobody wants to trade with him, while in the east those standing up to him are receiving international aid. There's also talk about putting Libyan oil revenue in an escrow (I'm not sure what'll come of this, it might just be talk, but who knows), which would cut of the money that he needs to pay his troops/mercenaries (also, it'd mean that even if he did find another African dictator to trade with, he'd eventually have nothing to pay them with), which makes him holding out for an extended duration even more unlikely.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 17:38 |
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King Dopplepopolos posted:I'm probably just echoing what others have said, but there isn't much chance of that, and even if he did win, with everything that's happened, it would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. It seems very marginally more likely, though still next to impossible, that Libya will be split in half, with the west controlled by Qadaffi and the east controlled by the rebels, for the foreseeable future, like North and South Korea. That's what I'm afraid of. We all like to laugh at North Korea and "Dear Leader can lift 10^8 tons with his flaccid cock..." propoganda, but they have concentration camps and the like. If Ghaddafi settles down to control the East and resumes exports and international relations (he has oil) , I can see him stamping out any sniff of a future uprising (read anybody who looks at him funny) with extreme brutality. I mean if you are willing to use anti-aircraft guns on your own people, you're willing to murder in the 6-figures at least at the drop of a hat.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 17:38 |
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Ras Lanufquote:1:41pm GMT quote:2:12pm GMT quote:2:42pm GMT quote:2:47pm GMT quote:2:56 GMT quote:2:58pm GMT quote:3:05pm GMT quote:3:49pm Bin Jawad quote:1:53pm GMT quote:2:56pm GMT quote:3:27pm quote:4:21pm Zawiyah quote:1:39pm GMT quote:2:40pm GMT quote:3:08pm GMT quote:3:15pm GMT quote:3:23 GMT quote:4:37pm GMT Misarata quote:2:08pm GMT Benghazi quote:2:23pm GMT quote:3:31pm GMT The Gaddafi's quote:1:58pm GMT quote:3:34pm quote:15:40pm quote:4:11pm GMT
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 17:40 |
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I have to admit, the BBC's mapmaking of the Libyan revolution has gotten significantly better, Click here to view the full image they're starting to close in on the Guardian, but still have a ways to go. Click here to view the full image (both are from March 9, around 1:30 ET)
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 18:34 |
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From the CNN front page: I guess this would be your Libyan mobile turret option.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 18:49 |
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^ They're just skeet-shootin.Narmi posted:I have to admit, the BBC's mapmaking of the Libyan revolution has gotten significantly better, The Guardian is just more adept at using Microsoft Visio. Jack Napier fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 9, 2011 |
# ? Mar 9, 2011 18:55 |
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Scrubed posted:From the CNN front page: It's nice to see Office Depot taking action and deploying their anti-aircraft capabilities when the rest of the world can't make their mind up. EDIT: Bigger version.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 19:24 |
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I like to think he just enjoys going backwards as a result of the recoil.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 19:35 |
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quote:4:37pm GMT That General must've always chafed at taking orders from Colonel Qaddafi. Re: endgame, I don't see Qaddafi ever regaining control of Cyrenaica, but I could see him holding on in the west for months at the current rate, or possibly (Qaddafi's best-case scenario) leading a breakaway state (they could call it Tripolitania?).
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 19:36 |
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Patter Song posted:Re: endgame, I don't see Qaddafi ever regaining control of Cyrenaica, but I could see him holding on in the west for months at the current rate, or possibly (Qaddafi's best-case scenario) leading a breakaway state (they could call it Tripolitania?). Or possibly "Nutso Fruitloops Wee-Waw Insane Town". They're all fine choices.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 19:44 |
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Outside of the civilian bombings and summary executions, Qaddafi has said and done things that can not be taken back. Considering he publically renounced the Western powers in favor for al Qaeda and now bombed his own oil refineries when even the rebels weren't touching those, if he makes it out of this, he's going to be worse than Saddam.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 19:56 |
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Lareous posted:Would it be inappropriate to grab the chair, spin it, and yell 'WHEEEEEEEEE'? He should have brought out the plastic mat too, no way that thing is mobile on concrete. The Libayan NRA skeet shooting classic. Qaddafi's Air Force is screwed, they have 100's of these arriving next week from CDW. Good thing they didnt buy this chair at Ikea or they'd still be putting it together.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 20:05 |
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Nuclear Spoon posted:I like to think he just enjoys going backwards as a result of the recoil. It's what in military terms is called "shoot and scoot".
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 20:06 |
Now that he's blowing up oil pipelines I'd be surprised if global intervention doesn't start happening.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 20:06 |
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Lareous posted:It's nice to see Office Depot taking action and deploying their anti-aircraft capabilities when the rest of the world can't make their mind up. I removed the guy behind him for those that want to turn it into an Av or something:
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 20:12 |
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Lareous posted:Talk about some badly needed comic relief. That is just wonderful.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 20:35 |
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Lareous posted:EDIT: Bigger version. I absolutely love this photograph. The guy's got a bottle of water and they're wearing baseball caps and jeans and work boots. It's that sort of imagery that really helps people here in the US to identify with the Libyan people. Look at those guys: they could just as easily be in Texas as Libya. And, it really highlights their predicament and resourcefulness and the nature of the Libyan rebellion. Yes, they've got assault rifles, but they're shooting at aircraft with them. It tells you how outgunned they are, and yet, they seem enthusiastic. The guy with the water, that suggests he's in it for the long haul. He's gonna be shooting at airplanes for hours, better have something to stay hydrated with. It's impossible to look at that picture and not feel solidarity.
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 20:57 |
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Guardian posted:UN paves way for no-fly zone as Nato steps up surveillance of Libya quote:David Cameron and Barack Obama agreed to draw up "the full spectrum" of military responses to the crisis in Libya as Britain won important US support for a possible no-fly zone over the country. quote:Nato has launched 24-hour air and sea surveillance of Libya as a possible precursor to a no-fly zone, amid signs of growing Arab support for western military intervention to stop the bombing of civilians. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/08/un-no-fly-zone-nato-libya poo poo getting real-er?
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 21:11 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 11:13 |
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Don't get your fingers cut:quote:We will cut foreign fingers: Saudi Arabia http://www.tradearabia.com/news/LAW_194892.html I've noticed that Arabs in general seem to have a more flowery style of speech, which often turns into rather overblown rhetoric. Still, it's hard to see the Saudis as more than savages when they start talking about cutting off fingers, especially since part of the Saudi stereotype in the west involves chopping off hands for minor crimes. It's not unreasonable to suggest that what people in the Middle East and Africa really want is not freedom, but food: quote:High Food Prices And Popular Uprisings – Is Ghana At Risk? http://news.peacefmonline.com/features/201103/142411.php?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter This is a very long and detailed article that lays out the situation for most of the region that is now in turmoil. Nothing has been done to change the situation since the first unrest in 2008. It's very well worth reading. It's also a halfway decent segue to the Ivory Coast news: quote:
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/icoast-exporters-risk-cocoa-seizure-sector You see, Europe and the west have encourage Ivorians to grow cocoa and coffee, not food, since it grows so well in their area. Now that there's more cash crops being grown, their food must be imported from grain-growing countries---remember the US' huge corn-farming subsidies, and the way that corn is sneaked into nearly every food product in the US via high fructose corn syrup. Importing food is much less efficient and much more shaky than growing it within your own country. A country that imports a great deal of its food is much less likely to have stockpiles for times of crisis. I could be completely wrong, but I think that we're now seeing worldwide results from the practices of Big Agriculture. And to highlight my potential wrongness, here's a story from Tunisia in which they're very much celebrating their freedom and not talking about food at all: (translated from French by Google Chrome) quote:Tunisia: the RCD, the former party of Ben Ali, dissolved http://www.jeuneafrique.com/Article/ARTJAWEB20110309103429/ <---this is in French btw However, the flash point for Tunisia was a man who immolated himself because he could not afford a seller's permit from Ben Ali's corrupt and greedy government, and as a result, could not make a living and feed his children, so maybe, in the long run, food is one of the greater issues. And don't forget the bread hat in Yemen. I don't think the guy made the bread hat to entertain us. I'm sure he was trying to make a statement. There's more protests in Oman: quote:Wednesday March 9, 2011 http://www.dailymail.com/ap/ApWorld/201103090318?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter I can't believe I quoted the Daily Mail On rare occasions they actually report the news I guess. It's all turning into a big blur of angry people and corrupt dictatorships and monarchies, but wasn't Oman one of the places in which there was an organized hunger strike by some religious leaders? Maybe I'm wrong. I could have sworn it was in one of the more well-off Arab countries; perhaps the hunger strike was in Bahrain. I don't know if this counts as a protest or not, since it's not clear why the young man went missing: quote:Rafiabad youth goes missing http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2011/Mar/10/rafiabad-youth-goes-missing-54.asp?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter People on Twitter seem to think he was disappeared by the police. This is the "black list" from Yemen, distributed by a group called Youth Revolution. All the people pictured stand accused of killing peaceful protesters. It's unclear what you're supposed to do if you see one of these people: http://www.adenlife.net/user_images/news/1299674534.jpeg I'm assuming that "kill them" is not the answer that the Youth Revolution has in mind. gently caress da police: quote:Saudi Shi'ites hold new protest in oil province http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE72826U20110309?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter You go, dawg. Kick the Shi'ite out of them. This one made me laugh because the way the tab is truncated, it says "Saudi Shi'it".
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# ? Mar 9, 2011 21:37 |