Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Yemeni security forces attempted to disperse thousands protesters from Sana'a University early this morning. It did not end well, I won't post them, but pictures can be seen here and here. The police also prevented ambulances from reaching the square. The article also says that the former Minister of Defense joined the protesters, though I'm having trouble figuring out when he resigned.

This is mere days after using what was supposedly nerve gas on the protesters. They're already back in the square, so it doesn't seem to have been very effective.

# ? Mar 12, 2011 21:43

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# ? May 21, 2024 10:22

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Narmi posted:

I was honestly expecting that the people in charge would use that as a case for intervention instead of just sitting back and watching a massacre. It seems like the only lesson learnt was that if you don't try, you can't fail.

The West is in a position of damned if you do, damned if you don't. There are always going to be plenty of stupid fanatics who will spin everything you do, no matter how noble or benevolent, as somehow imperialist and therefore wrong. And if you sit back and heed their advice, you are an accomplice to an atrocity.

# ? Mar 12, 2011 22:49

sweeptheleg: Nov 26, 2007

Xandu posted:

Yemeni security forces attempted to disperse thousands protesters from Sana'a University early this morning. It did not end well, I won't post them, but pictures can be seen here and here. The police also prevented ambulances from reaching the square. The article also says that the former Minister of Defense joined the protesters, though I'm having trouble figuring out when he resigned.

This is mere days after using what was supposedly nerve gas on the protesters. They're already back in the square, so it doesn't seem to have been very effective.

gently caress yemen, they also voted against the no fly zone at the arab league meeting.

# ? Mar 12, 2011 22:52

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

sweeptheleg posted:

gently caress yemen, they also voted against the no fly zone at the arab league meeting.

Only Syira voted against the NFZ. It's a bit confusing since there were reports that they did then they didn't then they did again agree to a NFZ, but the last update I read said Algeria and Yemen eventually came on board, even though Yemen stated earlier it was against it.

# ? Mar 12, 2011 23:48

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

Narmi posted:

Only Syira voted against the NFZ. It's a bit confusing since there were reports that they did then they didn't then they did again agree to a NFZ, but the last update I read said Algeria and Yemen eventually came on board, even though Yemen stated earlier it was against it.

Though I don't fully trust these rumors, rebels have accused Syrian pilots of flying combat missions for the Libyan Air Force.

# ? Mar 12, 2011 23:52

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

What do Yemen and Syria have against Libya that they would either truly vote against or be rumored to have voted against a no-fly zone?

# ? Mar 13, 2011 00:03

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I don't think either care that much about Libya, but they're both relatively authoritarian states that don't want to set the precedent of bombing states like that.

Personally I don't think anyone should give a poo poo about what the Arab League thinks. It's in no way representative of the Arab World and none of the states on it seem to have any interest in helping with a NFZ.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 00:07

Nuclear Spoon: Aug 18, 2010; I want to cry out
but I don’t scream and I don’t shout
And I feel so proud
to be alive

Paradox Personified posted:

What do Yemen and Syria have against Libya that they would either truly vote against or be rumored to have voted against a no-fly zone?

My guess is they want the revolution to fail so people in other countries lose confidence in their own?

# ? Mar 13, 2011 00:07

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Too bad for Yemen/Syria's regimes then that it's WELL past the point of regular revolution in Libya.

New Division posted:

Though I don't fully trust these rumors, rebels have accused Syrian pilots of flying combat missions for the Libyan Air Force.

There's also accusations of Serbian pilots flying combat missions, which probably influenced the negative reactions to the British incursion.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 01:33

sweeptheleg: Nov 26, 2007

I figured Yemen would vote no just so they dont seem hypocritical to their people. Who are currently trying to start their own revolution but just getting squashed. How can they support rebels in another country, but treat theirs like poo poo in similar ways gaddaffi was..

I have no idea how the arab league works, and maybe the rep had no attachment to the yemen government.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 02:49

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-20110313,1,5399326.story?page=1

This article from the L.A. Times paints a pretty disturbing picture of the rebel army. If what these journalists say is true, the rebels have barely deployed any tanks or heavy artillery, and a lot of the fighters lack even basic light weaponry. The defected military leaders don't come off too great either. They don't really seem to have established a firm chain of command or strategy.

I think the only places these guys are going to be able to fight effectively for the time being is in urban centers. They'll get butchered in any open field battle.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 04:36

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFLDE71Q0MP20110313

quote:

The United States backed a call by the Arab League for a United Nations no-fly zone over Libya, as government troops backed by warplanes fought to drive rebels from remaining strongholds in western Libya.

Excellent, now we can have bring things to the Security Council, where Russia and China will veto it so that everyone else can wring their hands and say that they've done all that they can.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 06:17

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Two potentially pieces of good news:

There's an unconfirmed report that says two battalions (Hamza and Khamis) clashed outside of Misrata - the Hamza battalion has now joined the revolution (again, this is unconfirmed)

Adding to this, there were defections from the 32nd Battalion, which is commanded by Khamis Gaddafi.

quote:

* Rebel says 32 Gaddafi troops defect in mutiny

* Crack Khamis Brigade slowed down on edge of Misrata

(Updates number of defections, adds background)

By Mariam Karouny

RAS JDIR, Tunisia, March 12 (Reuters) - A crack Libyan brigade commanded by Muammar Gaddafi's son Khamis was slowed by a mutiny as it advanced on Misrata on Saturday, with 32 soldiers joining the rebels holding the city, a rebel there said. One defector was a general, said the rebel named Mohammed. The feared 32nd Brigade tried but failed earlier in the day to take Misrata, the last major rebel holdout in western Libya.

Stalled about 10-15 km south of the city, the brigade broke out in a fire-fight after dozens of troops balked at the idea of killing innocent civilians in the impending attack, rebel spokesman Gamal added.

"Exactly 32 (soldiers) joined the rebels today," Mohammed said. "They have been interrogated by the rebels."

The events could not be confirmed independently. Journalists have been prevented from reaching the city by the authorities.

Other government forces continued their push eastward, and officials took foreign journalists from Tripoli to the eastern oil town of Ras Lanuf to prove the government controlled it.

Rebel spokesman Gamal said by telephone from Misrata: "In the morning, there was a gathering of pro-Gaddafi forces with the apparent aim of attacking the city but God protected this city. There was dissent within the Khamis Brigade.

"We knew from soldiers who defected after the dispute. They joined the rebels and said that dozens of the battalion members expressed reluctance to kill innocent civilians.

"Some of them ran away. More would have joined us but they were shot by the pro-Gaddafi men."

On Thursday, government forces recaptured the city of Zawiyah, 50 km (30 miles) west of Tripoli -- the only other town in western Libya which openly defied Gaddafi's four-decade rule.

Misrata residents and rebels said government troops had tried to fight their way into the city earlier in the day.

One rebel, Mohamad Ahmed, said he could hear the sound of anti-aircraft guns getting closer to the city centre.

IMPORTANT HUB

Misrata -- around 200 km (130 miles) east of Tripoli -- is Libya's third largest city and an important commercial hub with a population of about 300,000.

The government says the rebels are bandits or al Qaeda operatives. Gaddafi's opponents deny any link to religious militants, saying they are fighting for democratic change.

Rebels and residents in Misrata had been preparing for a government onslaught since troops regained control of Zawiyah.

Mussa Ibrahim, a government spokesman in Tripoli, could neither confirm nor deny a military operation was under way in Misrata.

"We want to give people a chance to lay down their arms. There is a hard core of al Qaeda fighters there. It looks like a Zawiyah scenario," he said.

"Some people will give up, some will disappear, so their numbers are declining. Tribal leaders are talking to them. Those who stay behind, we will deal with them accordingly. Misrata will be completely within united Libya very soon". Others in Misrata said the besieged city, much like Zawiyah in the last days before its fall, was running out of medicine.

"What worries us the most about the humanitarian situation is the lack of medicines and care facilities," said the rebel Mohammed.

Rebel spokesman Gemal said: "There is a lack of medicine and medical equipment. There is no way for the city to replenish the stock ... There is no shortage of food, praise to Allah." (Reporting by Souhail Karam in Rabat, Tarek Amara in Tunis, and Maria Golovnina in Tripoli; Writing by Maria Golovnina and Tom Heneghan; editing by Tim Pearce)

source

Unfortunately, Gaddafi is intent on "liberating" everyone around him - there's a report that Zuwarah (one of the western towns that joined the rebellion) is surrounded by tanks, and the soldiers have taken hostages.

quote:

We received this distress email a short while ago, and we relay the contents to you as we received it:

quote:
Qaddafi�s forces shot and wounded my cousin in the foot, leg and shoulder. Qaddafi�s forces took him to the hospital in Al-Jamil. The family spoke to the hospital. The nurses confirmed that they removed the bullets and that Qaddafi�s forces took him away. The forces are holding him hostage. The terms of release: Zuara has to raise the green flag and come out for demonstrations in support of Qaddafi. Zuara is surrounded by tanks. No one is going in or out. The people are expecting a big attack tonight. They are basically unarmed civilians.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 07:01

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JG0cr0nACg

# ? Mar 13, 2011 07:12

Rosscifer: Aug 3, 2005; Patience

Paradox Personified posted:

What do Yemen and Syria have against Libya that they would either truly vote against or be rumored to have voted against a no-fly zone?

Gadaffi's crazy antics didn't win him many friends. He lacks any diplomatic tact. His crazy rambling at the UN is really an embarrassment to the entire Arab world. How are people supposed to take Syria's land claims seriously when Gadaffi is yelling twice as loud about how we need to create Palestinrael and how Arabs should fight a jihad against Switzerland.

sweeptheleg posted:

I figured Yemen would vote no just so they dont seem hypocritical to their people. Who are currently trying to start their own revolution but just getting squashed. How can they support rebels in another country, but treat theirs like poo poo in similar ways gaddaffi was..

I have no idea how the arab league works, and maybe the rep had no attachment to the yemen government.

The Yemenese president is still trying hard to look like a nice guy. He's offering a new constitution and lots of other reforms. Siding with Gadaffi won't win him any popularity back home, but opposing him might. Domestic policy is more important than international policy.

New Division posted:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-20110313,1,5399326.story?page=1

This article from the L.A. Times paints a pretty disturbing picture of the rebel army. If what these journalists say is true, the rebels have barely deployed any tanks or heavy artillery, and a lot of the fighters lack even basic light weaponry. The defected military leaders don't come off too great either. They don't really seem to have established a firm chain of command or strategy.

I think the only places these guys are going to be able to fight effectively for the time being is in urban centers. They'll get butchered in any open field battle.

Don't get too discouraged. Controlling and garrisoning the west is going to slow down any potential push on the east. This will give the rebels in Benghazi time to organize. I'm really curious to see how many foreign volunteers come in to fight for the rebels. Oddly enough, foreign volunteers tend to be the most fervent and efficient fighters though they might actually turn away foreigners to avoid giving Gadaffi propaganda ammunition.

Rosscifer fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Mar 13, 2011

# ? Mar 13, 2011 08:31

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Near Ras Lanuf from a few days ago.

Rosscifer posted:

The Yemenese president is still trying hard to look like a nice guy.

At this point, he's really just trying to hold on, though his position has becoming increasingly untenable.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 08:56

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Xandu posted:

Near Ras Lanuf from a few days ago.

It looks like the rebels have MANPADs, because one of those guys is carrying a Strela. I also know, from the Libyan air force page on Wikipedia, that they've successfully downed a few aircraft.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 09:02

Ogive: Dec 22, 2002; by Lowtax

Xandu posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JG0cr0nACg

Man, I would hate to be the person whose pager went off during the moment of silence.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 09:19

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

New Division posted:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-20110313,1,5399326.story?page=1

This article from the L.A. Times paints a pretty disturbing picture of the rebel army. If what these journalists say is true, the rebels have barely deployed any tanks or heavy artillery, and a lot of the fighters lack even basic light weaponry. The defected military leaders don't come off too great either. They don't really seem to have established a firm chain of command or strategy.

It's not as if Gaddafi's troops are anything approaching fantastic. He has troops defecting everywhere once they get out of his range and it seems an increasing part of his 'military' is forced conscripts without any training.

Even his 'elite' squad keeps failing.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 10:13

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Big political protest in Beirut today against Hezbollah's weapons.

Sorry for the low quality images, not a great stream. It's unusually big for a political event though, vaguely reminiscent to the 2005 protests against Syria.

edit: replaced with better pictures.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Mar 13, 2011

# ? Mar 13, 2011 11:20

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

Namarrgon posted:

It's not as if Gaddafi's troops are anything approaching fantastic. He has troops defecting everywhere once they get out of his range and it seems an increasing part of his 'military' is forced conscripts without any training.

Even his 'elite' squad keeps failing.

Well, they just took Brega according to the latest reports out of the country, so I'd be wary of portraying them as too weak. They wouldn't stand up to Western armies, but they're capable of fighting poorly armed rebels. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/gaddafi-forces-rout-rebels-brega-east-libya

# ? Mar 13, 2011 17:54

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

Petey posted:

Someone just confronted him about Bradley manning's torture. Too complex response to post now. Very interesting.

Tadhg posted:

^^^^ Holy poo poo, wanna hear about how that one went.

This is how:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/13/crowley.stepping.down/

quote:

Washington (CNN) -- P.J. Crowley abruptly resigned Sunday as State Department spokesman over controversial comments he made about the Bradley Manning case.

Sources close to the matter the resignation, first reported by CNN, came under pressure from the White House, where officials were furious about his suggestion that the Obama administration is mistreating Manning, the Army private who is being held in solitary confinement in Quantico, Virginia, under suspicion that he leaked highly classified State Department cables to the website Wikileaks.

Speaking to a small group at MIT last week, Crowley was asked about allegations that Manning is being tortured and kicked up a firestorm by answering that what is being done to Manning by Defense Department officials "is ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid."

Crowley did add that "nonetheless, Bradley Manning is in the right place" because of his alleged crimes, according to a blog post by BBC reporter Philippa Thomas, who was present at Crowley's talk.

"The unauthorized disclosure of classified information is a serious crime under U.S. law," Crowley said in a statement Sunday. "My recent comments regarding the conditions of the pre-trial detention of Private First Class Bradley Manning were intended to highlight the broader, even strategic impact of discreet actions undertaken by national security agencies every day and their impact on our global standing and leadership.

"The exercise of power in today's challenging times and relentless media environment must be prudent and consistent with our laws and values," Crowley said. "Given the impact of my remarks, for which I take full responsibility, I have submitted my resignation."

Crowley has told friends that he is deeply concerned that mistreatment of Manning could undermine the legitimate prosecution of the young private. Crowley has also made clear he has the Obama administration's best interests at heart because he thinks any mistreatment of Manning could be damaging around the world to President Obama, who has tried to end the perception that the U.S. tortures prisoners.

Nevertheless, Crowley's political fate was sealed on Friday when Obama was asked at a White House news conference about his comments regarding Manning.

Obama revealed that he had asked Pentagon officials "whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of (Manning's) confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards."

In a comment that drew howls of protest from liberals, Obama added that Pentagon officials "assure me that they are. I can't go into details about some of their concerns, but some of this has to do with Private Manning's safety as well."

Manning's treatment has become a flashpoint for liberals, with Amnesty International noting he has been confined to a windowless cell for 23 hours a day, is stripped down to his boxers at night and is not given pillows or blankets.

Manning's lawyer also says the young private recently had to sleep in the nude because defense officials thought there was a suicide threat and decided to take away his boxer shorts.

Crowley is highly respected on foreign policy matters, dating back to his time as National Security Council spokesman under then-President Bill Clinton. He has been the Obama administration's public face on many international stories as the daily briefer at the State Department for Secretary Hillary Clinton.

But he has not had a completely smooth relationship with officials in the Obama White House, and eyebrows were raised several months ago when White House aide Mike Hammer was sent over to the State Department to serve as Crowley's deputy.

Hammer will replace Crowley as the assistant secretary for public affairs, Hillary Clinton said in a statement Sunday.

She said she accepted Crowley's resignation "with regret."

"P.J. has served our nation with distinction for more than three decades, in uniform and as a civilian," she said. "His service to country is motivated by a deep devotion to public policy and public diplomacy, and I wish him the very best."

A little-known factor in Crowley's comments about Manning was revealed Saturday by April Ryan, a White House correspondent for American Urban Radio who covered Crowley in the Clinton White House.

Ryan wrote on Twitter that Crowley "dislikes treatment of prisoners as his father was a Prisoner of War."

While it's true that Crowley's father was imprisoned during World War II, people close him downplay that as a major factor in his comments about Manning, saying the biggest factor is simply that Crowley believes what he said.

Asked to comment on Crowley stepping down, Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council, referred questions to the State Department.

In the statement, Crowley said he leaves with "great admiration and affection" for his colleagues and "deep respect for the journalists who report on foreign policy and global developments every day, in many cases under dangerous conditions and subject to serious threats. Their efforts help make governments more responsible, accountable and transparent."

# ? Mar 13, 2011 21:38

Ogive: Dec 22, 2002; by Lowtax

Apparently, Brega is back in rebel hands.

Also, this from twitter:

OMG ! In the tanks soldiers were found with legs bound 2gether so they can't escape it if they wanted

E: And, finally, some good news:

http://gulftoday.ae/portal/7e1319f9-291c-4fb6-a2c8-55b370cf175b.aspx

Ogive fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Mar 13, 2011

# ? Mar 13, 2011 21:41

Ogive: Dec 22, 2002; by Lowtax

From twitter: "My uncle's body has been removed from his grave in martyr square #AzZawiya, and "relocated" a.k.a burned."

gently caress you, Gaddhafi.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 22:46

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Apparently the earlier retreat from Brega by the rebels was part of a cunning trap while resulted in them capturing loads of Gaddafi forces.

AJE is also reporting Zawiyah is under seige again, after being captured by Gaddafi's forces a couple of days ago.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 23:13

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Brown Moses posted:

Apparently the earlier retreat from Brega by the rebels was part of a cunning trap while resulted in them capturing loads of Gaddafi forces.

Hahaha, those clever motherfuckers. It seems like they've regrouped and reorganized. If they keep it up, they'll take over their previously lost cities in no time.

# ? Mar 13, 2011 23:35

The Cheshire Cat: Jun 10, 2008; Fun Shoe

If that's true, apparently the rebels are a lot more organized than the reports were giving them credit for. If they can keep that up then they've got a much better chance at ending this sooner rather than later.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 00:17

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

I think what has happened is the army defectors have regrouped over time and organized themselves and their strategy to incorporate the rebels. So now we're seeing organized military resistance with the help, assistance and guerilla abilities of the civilian rebels as support. It seems to support the news and tweets coming out of Libya anyway. They know they can't take the pro-gadaf forces on head-on so they're using hit-and-run strats, phoney retreats and I also think they are trying to buy time for intervention or so more pro-gadaf forces bulk or join them, among other things.

No matter how confident Gadaffi looks or appears, the horror stories coming out from Libya regarding his use of terror and violence just reek of desperation and will only reinforce the rebels position within the country and internationally.

I'd put my bets on the rebels right now.

Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Mar 14, 2011

# ? Mar 14, 2011 00:36

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Ogive posted:

From twitter: "My uncle's body has been removed from his grave in martyr square #AzZawiya, and "relocated" a.k.a burned."

gently caress you, Gaddhafi.

Desecrating graves is a war crime. Hope it was worth it, fuckers.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 02:30

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

Any idea who the rebels are doing in terms of weapons and ammunition? They're still outgunned in terms of tanks/artillery (Brega is under heavy bombardment since they entered), and there was talk they could start buying their own heavy stuff, but from what I've seen they're mainly fighting mainly with light weapons.

The BBC had a piece comparing what the two sides had available, and it's heavily tipped in favour of Gaddafi. Granted, the numbers are probably wrong since lack of maintenance has taken its toll on the machinery, but quite a few people have been pointed out that the rebels need to get better weapons soon to even the playing field. For hit-and-run tactics it might not be so important, but for defending their cities I'd imagine it makes the difference between winning and losing.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 02:33

Yaos: Feb 22, 2003; She is a cat of significant gravy.

Narmi posted:

Any idea who the rebels are doing in terms of weapons and ammunition? They're still outgunned in terms of tanks/artillery (Brega is under heavy bombardment since they entered), and there was talk they could start buying their own heavy stuff, but from what I've seen they're mainly fighting mainly with light weapons.

The BBC had a piece comparing what the two sides had available, and it's heavily tipped in favour of Gaddafi. Granted, the numbers are probably wrong since lack of maintenance has taken its toll on the machinery, but quite a few people have been pointed out that the rebels need to get better weapons soon to even the playing field. For hit-and-run tactics it might not be so important, but for defending their cities I'd imagine it makes the difference between winning and losing.

If the stories are true, they are capturing armored vehicle. I assume they knocking out wheels/treads or the driver decides to switch sides during retreats. They don't need to destroy armored vehicles if they attack, they just need to destroy it's ability to move and eventually it will run out of fuel or somebody can run up to it with a hand held explosive while it's shooting at something else.

Right now the rebels have the advantage as the Libyan military needs to retake territory. The rest of the world has already decided that Gadaffi needs to lose, so he has no option but to try and take back the country and hope that without the rebels nobody else will attack Libya.

Yaos fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Mar 14, 2011

# ? Mar 14, 2011 03:28

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I guess this has been confirmed, big loving escalation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/14/saudi-arabian-forces-bahrain-protests?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+co%2FNvKj+%28The+Guardian+World+News%29 posted:

Saudi forces are preparing to intervene in neighbouring Bahrain, after a day of clashes between police and protesters who mounted the most serious challenge to the island's royal family since demonstrations began a month ago.

The Crown Prince of Bahrain is expected to formally invite security forces from Saudi Arabia into his country today, as part of a request for support from other members of the six-member Gulf Co-operation Council.

Thousands of demonstrators on Sunday cut off Bahrain's financial centre and drove back police trying to eject them from the capital's central square, while protesters also clashed with government supporters on the campus of the main university.

Amid the revolt Bahrain also faces a potential sectarian conflict between the ruling minority of Sunnis Muslims and a majority of Shia Muslims, around 70% of the kingdom's 525,000 residents.

The crown prince, Salman bin Hamad al-Khalifa, said in a televised statement that Bahrain had "witnessed tragic events" during a month of unprecedented political unrest.

Warning that "the right to security and safety is above all else", he added: "Any legitimate claims must not be made at the expanse of security and stability."

The crown prince has also promised that national dialogue would look at increasing the power of Bahrain's parliament, and that any deal could be put to nationwide referendum.

However, some protesters have pressed their demands further to call for the toppling of the Sunni dynasty.

The unrest is being closely watched in Saudi Arabia, where Shia are some 15% of the population.

The secretary general of the Gulf Co-operation Council, Abdulrahman bin Hamad al-Attiya, expressed the "full solidarity with Bahrain's leadership and people", adding that "safeguarding security and stability in one country is a collective responsibility".

In an apparent reference to Iran, which Gulf Arab ruling elites fear may capitalise on an uprising by Shiites in Bahrain, he also expresssed "strong rejection of any foreign interference in the kingdom's internal affairs, asserting that any acts aiming to destabilise the kingdom and sow dissension between its citizens represent a dangerous encroachment on the whole GCC security and stability." Reports that the Saudi National Guard was poised to enter Bahrain were cited by the Foreign Office, alongside a recent increase in protests, as it changed its advice to advise British citizens against all travel to Bahrain.

Earlier on Sunday, police moved in on Pearl Square, a site of occupation by members of Bahrain's Shia majority, who are calling for an elected government and equality with Bahrain's Sunnis.

Witnesses said security forces surrounded the protesters' tent compound, shooting tear gas and rubber bullets at the activists in the largest effort to clear the square since a crackdown last month that left four dead after live ammunition was fired.

Activists tried to stand their ground yesterday and chanted "Peaceful, peaceful" as the crowd swelled into thousands, with protesters streaming to the square to reinforce the activists' lines, forcing the police to pull back by the early afternoon.

At Bahrain University, Shia demonstrators and government supporters held competing protests that descended into violence when plainclothes pro-government backers and security forces forced students blocking the campus main gate to seek refuge in classrooms and lecture halls, the Associated Press reported.

The latest demonstrations took place a day after the US defence secretary, Robert Gates, visited Bahrain and said that the Khalifa family must go beyond "baby steps" reform and enact substantial economic and political change.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 04:22

Mad Doctor Cthulhu: Mar 3, 2008

Yaos posted:

If the stories are true, they are capturing armored vehicle. I assume they knocking out wheels/treads or the driver decides to switch sides during retreats. They don't need to destroy armored vehicles if they attack, they just need to destroy it's ability to move and eventually it will run out of fuel or somebody can run up to it with a hand held explosive while it's shooting at something else.

Right now the rebels have the advantage as the Libyan military needs to retake territory. The rest of the world has already decided that Gadaffi needs to lose, so he has no option but to try and take back the country and hope that without the rebels nobody else will attack Libya.

He's going to fail. If he's tying down his own men in their vehicles to prevent escape, then his 'support' does not exist. It would be fascinating to see how many people he has left, and how many of them are willing to die for this pathetic madman.

Xandu posted:

I guess this has been confirmed, big loving escalation.

This is not a good idea. The House of Saud is a pretty big target. They probably have enough to slam down an uprising, but doing so shows a weakness that, at this point, is going to backfire immensely.

Not to be too callous, but this would be a great time for Obama to put forth an energy policy to counter all of this. If Democracy comes to the Middle East with the House of Saud falling apart, we should probably start counting on skyrocketing gas and do everything besides interfere with any more nations very quickly.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 04:35

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

I have to say that despite predicting this weeks ago, I'm still amazed they're doing it. The other rulers in the area have got to be pretty desperately unhappy as the question of repression or reform gets the added bonus of the loving Saudis stepping in if things start looking bad.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 04:39

Chade Johnson: Oct 12, 2009; by Ozmaugh

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

He's going to fail. If he's tying down his own men in their vehicles to prevent escape, then his 'support' does not exist. It would be fascinating to see how many people he has left, and how many of them are willing to die for this pathetic madman.

This is not a good idea. The House of Saud is a pretty big target. They probably have enough to slam down an uprising, but doing so shows a weakness that, at this point, is going to backfire immensely.

Not to be too callous, but this would be a great time for Obama to put forth an energy policy to counter all of this. If Democracy comes to the Middle East with the House of Saud falling apart, we should probably start counting on skyrocketing gas and do everything besides interfere with any more nations very quickly.

GCC members spend a good bit on their military as percentage of GDP. 3 of the top 10 (Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates) belong to the GCC.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 05:03

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

Is there a plausibility at this point that there could be an uprising in Saudi Arabia?

# ? Mar 14, 2011 05:10

Hipster_Doofus: Dec 20, 2003; Lovin' every minute of it.

ChaosSamusX posted:

Is there a plausibility at this point that there could be an uprising in Saudi Arabia?

AFAIC it's just a matter of when. Having said that, probably not especially soon.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 05:13

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Yaos posted:

If the stories are true, they are capturing armored vehicle. I assume they knocking out wheels/treads or the driver decides to switch sides during retreats. They don't need to destroy armored vehicles if they attack, they just need to destroy it's ability to move and eventually it will run out of fuel or somebody can run up to it with a hand held explosive while it's shooting at something else.

Nitpick: That's not capturing, that's a mobility kill, and I doubt that the rebels have the infrastructure with which to refit and repair any such vehicles, so here's hoping that it's mainly crew defections.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 05:14

stgdz: Nov 3, 2006; 158 grains of smiley powered justice

god that iranians are really doing an awesome job of moving their chest pieces through out the ME. Sure people are pissed off and the house of saud is doing a terrible job and it has done but the iranians are really moving into a very good controlling interest of the region.

Narmi posted:

Any idea who the rebels are doing in terms of weapons and ammunition? They're still outgunned in terms of tanks/artillery (Brega is under heavy bombardment since they entered), and there was talk they could start buying their own heavy stuff, but from what I've seen they're mainly fighting mainly with light weapons.

The BBC had a piece comparing what the two sides had available, and it's heavily tipped in favour of Gaddafi. Granted, the numbers are probably wrong since lack of maintenance has taken its toll on the machinery, but quite a few people have been pointed out that the rebels need to get better weapons soon to even the playing field. For hit-and-run tactics it might not be so important, but for defending their cities I'd imagine it makes the difference between winning and losing.

they are running low on ammo, apparently they shot off a bunch of it when the revolution started.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 05:18

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# ? May 21, 2024 10:22

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

farraday posted:

I have to say that despite predicting this weeks ago, I'm still amazed they're doing it. The other rulers in the area have got to be pretty desperately unhappy as the question of repression or reform gets the added bonus of the loving Saudis stepping in if things start looking bad.

Yeah it's a big step and obviously not a good one. SA clearly fears the spread of the protests (though they know better than to go into Yemen), but still. It has the potential to seriously backfire. If they fail, and a foreign intervention has to be a massacre to succeed, it will seriously damage their credibility both in the region and internally ("they lost in Bahrain and they will lose here").

According to @weddady on twitter, who is very trustworthy, they sent in two national guard battalions, which is ~2000 men. What's interesting is that it's being branded as a GCC intervention, not specifically Saudi.

# ? Mar 14, 2011 07:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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