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Stroh M.D. posted:This may look off-topic, but it actually has some relevance for the Libyan conflict since people who sympathize with this movement has started to express clear opinions against the intervention. To them, it's simple: they don't deserve our help and it will only result in more refugees. Narmi posted:The Swedish neo-nazis, the English Defense League and the BNP in the UK, the Front National in France, Germany's Chancellor Merkel (along with a few other European leaders) claiming multiculturalism has failed.
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Mar 20, 2011 18:58
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autophreak posted:Do you have a source for this as I have haven't heard anything of that nature. http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/national/somalis-in-libya-%91hunted%92-on-suspicion-of-being-mercenaries-unhcr There were a few articled posted ages ago too
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Mar 20, 2011 18:58
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Nenonen posted:*snip* pretty much agree with you on all points here.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:00
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Vir posted:Gaddafi warned that millions of illegal immigrants would swarm Europe if he wasn't left in power. Again, his PR strategy is "say anything". Yes, it's a real hassle. It has gotten to the point were it's difficult to direct any kind of criticism towards Islam or associated practices (and there is plenty to be had) without tacitly supporting people who hate muslims on the only ground that they are almost universally Arab or African in origin. Islamophobia has developed into a real thing over here.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:05
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autophreak posted:Do you have a source for this as I have haven't heard anything of that nature. http://www.euronews.net/2011/03/10/africans-fleeing-libya-threatened-with-death/ http://fsrn.org/audio/audio-tag-title-raw/8163 It sounds like there were a few lynchings. It is hard to tell how widespread it may have been, but most of the African migrant workers in Libya didn't stick around long enough for it to become systematic. Not the rebels finest moment, but anyone expecting them to be spotless paragons of progressive democracy and human rights are being unrealistic. edit: here's another good one. http://www.migrant-rights.org/2011/02/27/african-migrants-targeted-by-libyans-amid-turmoil/ New Division fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Mar 20, 2011 |
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Mar 20, 2011 19:07
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How would NATO the UN or any other group go about protecting human rights all over the world? Embargos don't work, and sanctions don't work.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:10
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Vote's in. The proposed constitutional amendments to the Egyptian constitution have passed with 77.2% in favour. Numbers were a bit low however with only 41.19% voter participation (18,537,000 out of 45,000,000 eligible voters). It was a done deal once the MB made the issue a religious one and said that it's a divine duty decreed by god to vote "Yes". Before that it might have been 50/50. What this means in the long run: we're gonna have parliamentary elections in June, and presidential ones in August. Parliament still retains the horrible system where 25% must be workers and 25% must be farmers, regardless of their education.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:10
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Ham posted:Parliament still retains the horrible system where 25% must be workers and 25% must be farmers, regardless of their education. Why's that horrible, if I may ask?
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Mar 20, 2011 19:13
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SoroScrew
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Paradox Personified posted:Why's that horrible, if I may ask? Because in the past most of the people elected through the farmer/worker law couldn't even read or write, and those who did, most of them never had any form of higher education. They were not useful in any legislative, law-making process, which is the point of the parliament here.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:17
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Probably because uneducated people tend to not know of the issues at large and do not know how much goes on behind the screens. Also from experience in my own country, tend to be xenophobic and always go with the more populist and racist parties.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:18
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Ham posted:Because in the past most of the people elected through the farmer/worker law couldn't even read or write, and those who did, most of them never had any form of higher education. They were not useful in any legislative, law-making process, which is the point of the parliament here.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:19
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Mattimer posted:And their inclusion in parliament doesn't guarantee that the sectors they're representing will "have a say", it just guarantees that people smarter than them will be able to sway their vote. I wouldn't say smarter people, I'm not saying these people are "dumb", just that they don't have the education or capacity to participate in the law-making process, and they're mostly elected through family ties in their districts. You have to remember Egypt is a country where 40%+ cannot read or write, and an even higher percentage don't have college degrees.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:24
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What is going on in Tripoli? CNN is showing anti-aircraft fire. They blind firing or is something going on?
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Mar 20, 2011 19:25
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Ham posted:Vote's in. Well that's a loving disappointment. Any idea why turnout was so low? it makes the results seem a bit suspicious. Do you see Egypt becoming less secular as a result of this outcome (the MB using 'god' to sway their vote is really quite worrying, looks like they just wanted to secure their place in the new Egypt instead of doing the right thing). I'm guessing the 50% retard contingent will be easy to sway by using the god argument in the future too.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:27
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/arab-league-condemns-broad-bombing-campaign-in-libya/2011/03/20/AB1pSg1_story.html Looks like the Arab League's considering withdrawing their approval of the campaign already.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:28
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MoonTuna posted:What is going on in Tripoli? CNN is showing anti-aircraft fire. They blind firing or is something going on? AJs newsteam says it all seems to be directed in one direction and that they don't think it has connected with anything. They haven't heard any aircraft either. They also estimate that the volleys are less numerous than last night, when it all opened up in all kinds of directions - again without actually hitting anything,
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Mar 20, 2011 19:29
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Ham posted:I wouldn't say smarter people, I'm not saying these people are "dumb", just that they don't have the education or capacity to participate in the law-making process, and they're mostly elected through family ties in their districts. You have to remember Egypt is a country where 40%+ cannot read or write, and an even higher percentage don't have college degrees. But look where electing only 'qualified' people gets us in a highly stratified society. They will tend to consolidate power in their social class and make it increasingly harder for anyone else to break in. Couple that with the fact that political landscapes are made up of leaders and yes-men anyways and it may not be that much of a difference. I'm not saying the Egyptian system is going to do much good and a parade of Egyptian Mr.Smiths are going to shake up the political scene, but honestly I don't see that it's especially worse. That and I'm generally opposed to any sort of arbitrary qualification test either to vote OR to hold office (as much as it pains me given some of the results in this country). edit: of course mandating a percentage of farmers IS a qualification test technically. i don't know what the gently caress i guess.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:32
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Jut posted:Well that's a loving disappointment. Keep in mind that the result of a "No" vote would have been continued de facto military rule in Egypt for a year or more. Supporters of the "No" vote made noises about a technocratic advisory council to help the military manage affairs, but never agreed on a time frame for the eventual parliamentary votes. Still, it appears that the likely result of this "Yes" vote will be a new government with a large representation from the Muslim Brotherhood and it will be very interesting to see how the US and Israel react to that.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:35
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New Division posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/arab-league-condemns-broad-bombing-campaign-in-libya/2011/03/20/AB1pSg1_story.html I guess Amr Moussa is afraid of losing his street cred in the run-up to the elections in Egypt.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:35
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Toaster Ding posted:But look where electing only 'qualified' people gets us in a highly stratified society. They will tend to consolidate power in their social class and make it increasingly harder for anyone else to break in. Couple that with the fact that political landscapes are made up of leaders and yes-men anyways and it may not be that much of a difference. I don't think this applies in Egypt since we're already in the same situation the US is in, where these people will consolidate power in their social class. These illiterate people aren't poor, they're actually relatively rich and own huge swathes of land/some corporations in their name. They're not poor, they're rich by inheritance and that's how they get seats in a mostly poor society.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:39
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t3ch3 posted:Keep in mind that the result of a "No" vote would have been continued de facto military rule in Egypt for a year or more. Supporters of the "No" vote made noises about a technocratic advisory council to help the military manage affairs, but never agreed on a time frame for the eventual parliamentary votes. A technocratic government over a religious one any day.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:39
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Pictures from a funeral procession today in Yemen following the massacre in Sana'a on Friday where 52 people died. http://marebpress.net/news_details.php?sid=32128&lng=arabic  
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Mar 20, 2011 19:40
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Ham, I've heard predictions that this referendum helps both the Muslim Brotherhood and the NDP. Could you tell us about who is still voting for the NDP after the events of the last few months? Old elites, or is there actual support from the masses for them?
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Mar 20, 2011 19:41
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t3ch3 posted:Keep in mind that the result of a "No" vote would have been continued de facto military rule in Egypt for a year or more. Supporters of the "No" vote made noises about a technocratic advisory council to help the military manage affairs, but never agreed on a time frame for the eventual parliamentary votes. The result of a no-vote would be the writing of a completely new constitution whilst delaying parliamentary elections until non-Muslim Brotherhood or NDP political parties can actually organize for elections. quote:Still, it appears that the likely result of this "Yes" vote will be a new government with a large representation from the Muslim Brotherhood and it will be very interesting to see how the US and Israel react to that. Not this soon, you'll have to wait till the new parliament is in and see if it's MB dominated. If it is, they have the ability to rewrite the constitution as they want, effectively turning the country over to them.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:41
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Oh and Saleh (Yemen) just fired his entire government, as if that's what the protesters want.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:42
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Patter Song posted:Ham, I've heard predictions that this referendum helps both the Muslim Brotherhood and the NDP. Could you tell us about who is still voting for the NDP after the events of the last few months? Old elites, or is there actual support from the masses for them? Not support from the masses, but most of the NDP are businessmen extremely popular in their areas of residence/districts. These are people that can count on most people in their district voting for them out of family ties, charity etc. And there's some people who still actually support Mubarak and the NDP and they go by the slogan "We're sorry, Mr. President" and I know a few of them. NDP members are also organizing and forming new parties such as "Youth for Change" and "The youth of Januray 25th".
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Mar 20, 2011 19:45
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Sorry Ham, welcome to Of course the MB don't seem to be as batfucking insane and they don't have Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin or Fox News as their PR department. On the plus side at least now you have something to shove in the face of racists when they doubt that Egyptians can "do freedom" as this is a classic example of Western style elections.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:45
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Ham posted:The result of a no-vote would be the writing of a completely new constitution whilst delaying parliamentary elections until non-Muslim Brotherhood or NDP political parties can actually organize for elections. Agreed, but you have to acknowledge that a "No" vote would have meant at least another year with the day-to-day government operations controlled by the military while the new constitution was being worked out. It's not my choice to make, but I can at least can understand the thinking of people who want to move on sooner.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:46
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Verizian posted:Sorry Ham, welcome to I don't mind the results because I believe the process was fair and conducted professionally, I accept the results but it doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them. What this really means is that non-religious parties need to seriously step up their game in the few months left to parliamentary elections so we don't have one party with most of the power.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:50
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Verizian posted:Sorry Ham, welcome to And they do actual good for the people and their 'dragging god in' is basically just a unifying force, and they're actually nothing like the republicans and the only people who doubt if they can 'handle freedom' are the same people who think 'aaah Muslim Brotherhood, terrists!' so unless they do the insane and remove them totally from the country the racists will always do that.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:52
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Ham posted:I don't think this applies in Egypt since we're already in the same situation the US is in, where these people will consolidate power in their social class. These illiterate people aren't poor, they're actually relatively rich and own huge swathes of land/some corporations in their name. They're not poor, they're rich by inheritance and that's how they get seats in a mostly poor society. I see. I just assumed these people were poor/lower class. If all it's done is reduce the pool of candidates to a subset of connected "farmer" families then yeah, it's BS.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:53
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Xandu posted:Oh and Saleh (Yemen) just fired his entire government, as if that's what the protesters want. You could say it "worked" in Jordan, for now.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:55
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Jordan is a different situation with the protests not specifically targeted at the ruling family. Saleh is pretty obviously the target in Yemen so it's more in line with Mubarak's attempt at a cabinet reshuffle. And good news everyone! Via BBC # 1854: The (Libyan) spokesman said all Libyan armed forces units have been told to follow a ceasefire, beginning at 2100 local time. It's Ceasefire 2:
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Mar 20, 2011 19:57
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shotgunbadger posted:And they do actual good for the people and their 'dragging god in' is basically just a unifying force, and they're actually nothing like the republicans and the only people who doubt if they can 'handle freedom' are the same people who think 'aaah Muslim Brotherhood, terrists!' so unless they do the insane and remove them totally from the country the racists will always do that. I'm sure telling people that anyone who votes no or contradicts their opinions is an apostate worhy of death is completely benevolent. I'm not saying this is how they'll carry themselves later on, or that they will restrict freedom but it gives you something to think about when considering what could happen and what lengths they're prepared to take when they use religious power in order to sway a civil election/referendum.
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Mar 20, 2011 19:58
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Few bits of news:quote:Heavy anti-aircraft gunfire is currently being heard over central Tripoli. quote:Almanara Media reports that heavy explosions have been heard from inside Gaddafi’s battalion base in south Az-Zintan. The base was surrounded by revolutionary forces and the cause of the explosions is unconfirmed so far. The revolutionaries have withdrawn and the soldiers inside have fled north and south. No one is planning to go near the base for fear that it may be a target for air strikes. quote:The Foreign Office has released a statement in response to criticism of the bombardment of Libya by the Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa, who said that the organisation wanted to see "the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians".
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Mar 20, 2011 20:00
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DonT15 posted:You could say it "worked" in Jordan, for now. For an autocratic constitutional monarchy, Jordan isn't all bad. They will probably get out of this with the least amount of turmoil simply because the people is nowhere near as dissatisfied with their government as the people in most of the other Arab nations.
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Mar 20, 2011 20:01
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Ham posted:I'm sure telling people that anyone who votes no or contradicts their opinions is an apostate worhy of death is completely benevolent. I'm not saying this is how they'll carry themselves later on, or that they will restrict freedom but it gives you something to think about when considering what could happen and what lengths they're prepared to take when they use religious power in order to sway a civil election/referendum. Indeed, they didn't waste their time on laying their cards on the table. Next up 'it's you're god given duty to vote for us! the opposition are infidels and going to hell!'
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Mar 20, 2011 20:01
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Ham posted:I don't mind the results because I believe the process was fair and conducted professionally, I accept the results but it doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them. What this really means is that non-religious parties need to seriously step up their game in the few months left to parliamentary elections so we don't have one party with most of the power. Ham, I know the MB said they weren't going to field a candidate for the presidency, and the I'd imagine the NDP likely won't be successful either (unless they run someone under a different group), so what does this mean for the two guys (ElBaradei and Moussa) who seem to be the two biggest contenders with a chance of winning the presidency? Does ElBaradei even have a party he can run under? From what I recall, Moussa was pro-NDP, so would he get support from them? e: Ham posted:I'm sure telling people that anyone who votes no or contradicts their opinions is an apostate worhy of death is completely benevolent. I'm not saying this is how they'll carry themselves later on, or that they will restrict freedom but it gives you something to think about when considering what could happen and what lengths they're prepared to take when they use religious power in order to sway a civil election/referendum. During the protests, they joined in pretty late in the game and kept their heads down. Also, everyone who was asked about them said they weren't worried about them making any power plays because they would get at most 10% of the vote. It seems odd that they're making a power grab all things considered. Narmi fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Mar 20, 2011 |
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Mar 20, 2011 20:05
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farraday posted:Jordan is a different situation with the protests not specifically targeted at the ruling family. Saleh is pretty obviously the target in Yemen so it's more in line with Mubarak's attempt at a cabinet reshuffle. Got it; that's what the Twitterfall is saying too (that this is more in line with Egypt than Jordan). _______________________________________ Also, I noticed that protests in Syria are starting to pick up. What's the word with that; what do you all think could and/or will happen there?
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Mar 20, 2011 20:07
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DonT15 posted:Also, I noticed that protests in Syria are starting to pick up. What's the word with that; what do you all think could and/or will happen there? Not much info available yet, but it looks to be serious, though it hasn't spread to Damascus yet (if it does, that's a sign it's a real threat to the regime). Very little information from Dar3a, which is where probably the biggest protest is, but there are reports of confirmed dead and possible tanks in the city. Bashar al-Assad hasn't killed everybody in the town yet, which I suppose makes him better than his father. edit: I've been scanning around for video/pictures, but not much has come out in the last 24 hours. And a journalist was turned away by the government when trying to enter Dar3a.
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Mar 20, 2011 20:10
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