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Pedrophile posted:Source please? This was posted already, but I'm not sure if Angry Bum is talking about this... http://www.pollingreport.com/libya.htm quote:Pew Research Center. March 10-13, 2011. N=1,001 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 4. Honestly, there's about equal representation for Agree and Opposing a NFZ, but it seems a lot of people didn't consider that we would have to bomb Libyan AAA sites.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:27
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The Angry Bum posted:http://people-press.org/report/715/ 44% in support of a NFZ, 45% against 16% in support of bombing air defences, 77% against. Tells me that the people polled were generally uninformed as to what a NFZ actually entailed.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:27
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DevNull posted:gently caress the politics of it. The rebels on the ground are getting some help. They are happy. Ultimately, this. I think political ramifications should always be prepared to take a back seat when put up against basic humanism. If we can't even save innocent people who are being slaughtered in front of us, then the international community has either failed, or never existed beyond a sanctimonious pretense.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:28
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ChaosSamusX posted:Ultimately, this. I think political ramifications should always be prepared to take a back seat when put up against basic humanism. If we can't even save innocent people who are being slaughtered in front of us, then the international community has either failed, or never existed beyond a sanctimonious pretense. Let me tell you about this little thing called Guantanamo Bay...
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Mar 21, 2011 21:29
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The Angry Bum posted:Pew poll over the weekend said nearly 80% of Americans STRICTLY OPPOSE Obama sending in any part of our military to Libya.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:30
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Also keep in mind that Pew is somewhat of a left leaning research group.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:30
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randombattle posted:Seriously I hope Obama or someone just goes gently caress you guys and your political horseshit. Not letting unarmed people be blown to pieces by AA guns is a good thing and that should be what matters. Pretty much.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:30
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ibroxmassive posted:44% in support of a NFZ, 45% against A lot of people across many nations weren't really sure what the NFZ actually meant. And that was even after Admiral Mike Mullen went in front of Congress to explain that coordinated strikes against Libyan defenses were going to be a part of it. Either no one listened to that, were paying any attention, or just brushed it off thinking the no-fly was going to be fighter jets patrolling the country. DaveWoo posted:On the other hand, a new CNN poll says that 70% of Americans support the no-fly zone. A lot of Americans just like watching war. The Angry Bum fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 21, 2011 |
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Mar 21, 2011 21:31
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The Angry Bum posted:The War Powers act itself is unconstitutional and the Supreme Court needs to abolish it NOW. And Obama himself specifically said he would NEVER use the act to commit to a military operation that was not any threat to the United States. He broke his own promise, and his words are as useless as Qaddafi's. Obama is currently breaking the law and the US Constitution and should pay for it with his job IMMEDIATELY. So clearly, by failing to uphold the constitution, Rep Kucinich is committing an impeachable offense in unlawfully restraining the President's authority as commander in chief of the armed forces to deploy them as he sees necessary. Good to know!
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Mar 21, 2011 21:31
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I know about Gaddafi's soldiers and the fact that he has some supporters. But who are the rebels exactly? I mean, I'm pretty sure that the majority of them simply want democracy and fair representation for themselves, and I know about the slaughtering of innocent civilians. But are the some other components to the resistance that I'm not getting? I'm just seeing a lot of posts painting the rebels as the first demographic only but I'm sure it's a bit more complicated than that. Can anyone who knows a lot more than me answer this? Fake edit: Narmi posted:Close. Ham was in here earlier and explained it better than I can, but they basically told a bunch of people that it was their duty as Muslims to vote "yes" on the referendum. Once they did that there was no chance of it not passing. Thank you! I'll look up his post and see what else I can find.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:34
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Of course, what has to be done now is that the Egyptians need to get a fatwah that voting to their best interests, not as the Muslim Brotherhood say, is the right way, according to Allah. Get it out now, fast, and before the Muslim Brotherhood cook the actual elections.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:36
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Shitpost Gaze posted:I know about Gaddafi's soldiers and the fact that he has some supporters. But who are the rebels exactly? The rebels are pretty much the civilian population of Libya, they're not necessarily on any side but are all fighting for the common goal of freedom. On the otherside is Gadaffi and his loyalists who want to return the country back to his rule.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:37
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The Reaganomicon posted:Let me tell you about this little thing called Guantanamo Bay... Um, congrats. Don't assume that just because I'm supporting this action doesn't mean I'm anything close to a right-winged jingoistic American. I think GB is a symbol of the failure of the American constitution, and that for the most part, American foreign policy has been a steaming pile of crap for the past decade. Like someone else said, this reflects how most people on this thread feel. Just because we agree with a single thing a person or group does, does not mean we whole-heartedly support every fiber of their existence.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:40
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randombattle posted:Seriously I hope Obama or someone just goes gently caress you guys and your political horseshit. Not letting unarmed people be blown to pieces by AA guns is a good thing and that should be what matters. Perhaps when they eventually take over and have some prefunctory vote he can fly a bunch in to hold up purple fingers.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:46
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Simtex posted:A little more on that Russian situation from the New York Times: Talk about the pot calling the kettle a puppet figurehead leader...
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Mar 21, 2011 21:46
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Pedrophile posted:The rebels are pretty much the civilian population of Libya, they're not necessarily on any side but are all fighting for the common goal of freedom. On the otherside is Gadaffi and his loyalists who want to return the country back to his rule. It's just that I thought I read that there was some clan-related animosity in there and a little bit of an East vs. West thing too. Not trying to say that the (very) vast majority isn't fighting for new governance or that the rebels aren't genuine!
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Mar 21, 2011 21:48
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ChaosSamusX posted:Um, congrats. Don't assume that just because I'm supporting this action doesn't mean I'm anything close to a right-winged jingoistic American. I think GB is a symbol of the failure of the American constitution, Whoa, at there I was thinking that you now have a black man for president? Did I dream that?
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Mar 21, 2011 21:49
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Astroman posted:Talk about the pot calling the kettle a puppet figurehead leader... I'm sure the irony isn't lost on him. Hell I'm sure Medvedev wakes up everyday quietly hating himself.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:50
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Cartouche posted:
good question. the clichés are beer, chocolate and french fries. We do have manneken pis, the little peeing guy in brussels. But don't know if that could work. Maybe I'll try something if I have some time during the next days, so I can post it next time my country bombs something. mrfart fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 21, 2011 |
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Mar 21, 2011 21:52
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The Reaganomicon posted:Whoa, at there I was thinking that you now have a black man for president? Did I dream that? In the spirit of accuracy, what denominations/ethnicities did you dream of his parents having? Black is such an overgeneralization.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:53
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SoroScrew
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Surely it could be nothing other than Jean-Claude Van Damme?
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Mar 21, 2011 21:53
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mrfart posted:good question. I didn't know french fries were Swiss. edit: My mistake. You included beer. Obviously Germany.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:54
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Shitpost Gaze posted:It's just that I thought I read that there was some clan-related animosity in there and a little bit of an East vs. West thing too. Not trying to say that the (very) vast majority isn't fighting for new governance or that the rebels aren't genuine!
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Mar 21, 2011 21:55
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Pedrophile posted:The rebels are pretty much the civilian population of Libya, they're not necessarily on any side but are all fighting for the common goal of freedom. On the otherside is Gadaffi and his loyalists who want to return the country back to his rule. Are you really sure that is the truth, and its not just tribes A,B,C vs tribes D and E? I saw another guy on Al-Jazeera saying that its all tribes, so I'm not sure its all just racist talk. Are we sure enough about that reality to throw another couple billion behind the "they-just-need-a-little-help-for-democracy-world-view" when we are still bogged down in 2 wars where we thought we knew what the people wanted and we would be out in months, not 10 years.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:56
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kw0134 posted:There is that, of course, and a reason why the ragtag rebels are, uh, ragtag is because the eastern half of the nation is significantly underdeveloped and armed compared with the depots in the west, where Qadaffi's tribal allegiances lay. And there's no accident that the east rebelled first; it's the tribal area most alienated by Qadaffi's rule (interesting historical note: the monarch deposed by our Beloved Brother was from a tribe in this region.) The transitional council, however, has been taking extraordinary pains to present a united front transcending all these tribal concerns. How deep this unity goes is honestly an open question which no one has a real answer for. Let's not forget Misurata is still a hot spot for the rebels and Zawiya and Zwara had to be occupied to keep them from rebelling, all of which are in the western quadrant of Libya and near Tripoli.
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Mar 21, 2011 21:57
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So the American people loved the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and those ended up to be horrible travesties. So if the American people hate this "war" then it'll be a good thing, right? The American public is always wrong!
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Mar 21, 2011 21:58
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The Reaganomicon posted:Whoa, at there I was thinking that you now have a black man for president? Did I dream that? Um, I meant "Guantanamo Bay", not "George Bush"
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Mar 21, 2011 21:58
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Wait...The Angry Bum posted:Pew poll over the weekend said nearly 80% of Americans STRICTLY OPPOSE Obama sending in any part of our military to Libya. Pew Research Center. March 10-13, 2011 March 10-13, 2011 Well, I guess you didn't say which weekend.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:01
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Baddog posted:Are you really sure that is the truth, and its not just tribes A,B,C vs tribes D and E? As an outside observer I haven't seen many signs of infighting between these tribes, it seems very much like the population vs. gadaffi. Most of the time I've seen tribal war was in trying to call what's happening a civil war. I don't think this seems to be the case as it is very apparent that one side is massacring civilians.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:02
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Young Freud posted:Let's not forget Misurata is still a hot spot for the rebels and Zawiya and Zwara had to be occupied to keep them from rebelling, all of which are in the western quadrant of Libya and near Tripoli.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:02
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mrfart posted:Maybe I'll try something if I have some time during the next days, so I can post it next time my country bombs something. Are we also going to count the creation of "ethnic groups" in order to keep a population under control, then leaving as soon as genocide starts?
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Mar 21, 2011 22:04
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Nuclear Spoon posted:Surely it could be nothing other than Jean-Claude Van Damme? Actually, I guess tintin is the most popular belgian, even if a lot of people think he's french or something. especially now spielbergs movie is about to be released. Anyway, the belgian f16's didn't got any action today. Their job is apparently making sure the NFZ is respected. I don't know if there's any libyan pilots who will try to get up in the air the next couple of days. I imaging they don't stand that much of a chance, although I don't know what they're flying with (migs?).
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Mar 21, 2011 22:07
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kw0134 posted:There is that, of course, and a reason why the ragtag rebels are, uh, ragtag is because the eastern half of the nation is significantly underdeveloped and armed compared with the depots in the west, where Qadaffi's tribal allegiances lay. And there's no accident that the east rebelled first; it's the tribal area most alienated by Qadaffi's rule (interesting historical note: the monarch deposed by our Beloved Brother was from a tribe in this region.) The transitional council, however, has been taking extraordinary pains to present a united front transcending all these tribal concerns. How deep this unity goes is honestly an open question which no one has a real answer for. kw0134 posted:Absolutely, and that Tripoli itself became a weapons-free warzone or else this little intervention would have been wholly unnecessary because Tripolans would be doing the Ceausescu noose dance for the Qadaffi clan a few weeks back. However it is not crazy to be a little cautious if and when the dust settles and Qadaffi's gone and suddenly the matter of who came from where takes on sudden prominence in the supposedly unified rebellion. Thanks! You're right, the aftermath of this could be potentially messy. Just one more reservation I have about this thing ending. 
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Mar 21, 2011 22:08
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mrfart posted:good question. how about a waffle? 
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Mar 21, 2011 22:13
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msnbc enlightening us on the Clinton anti-genocide connection wrt the "Tutus and Hutsis in Rwanda". Apparently Hillary was egged on by her husband because he still feels bad for... the great ballet massacre??
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Mar 21, 2011 22:15
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mrfart posted:We do have manneken pis, the little peeing guy in brussels. But don't know if that could work. You struck gold and don't even realize it.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:17
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Koesj posted:msnbc enlightening us on the Clinton anti-genocide connection wrt the "Tutus and Hutsis in Rwanda". Apparently Hillary was egged on by her husband because he still feels bad for... the great ballet massacre?? Them and the Watusi are some pretty vicious killers.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:19
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Baddog posted:Are you really sure that is the truth, and its not just tribes A,B,C vs tribes D and E? No, he's not sure at all. We in the West are seeing the TV pictures and immediately fitting them into our own Middle East narrative: Evil despot vs resolute populace. Other people, in other parts of the world, might see something else entirely. There's a good article on this here (read it!): http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/20/bahrain-saudi-intervention-religious-divide You shouldn't assume that, just because Gadafffi's a murderous lunatic (which he is), the people opposing him are automatically peaceful democrats themselves. Like most of the posters in this thread, I know next to nothing about the history, culture and aspirations of the different tribes that make up the Libyan population. Perhaps they just want rid of Gadaffi so that they can invite Osama Bin Laden into Libya! "That's not true!!!", goons reply indignantly. Well, how do you know?? Have you bothered to investigate what the rebels really want at all? At least ask the questions before taking up their cause so enthusiastically.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:19
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Umiapik posted:Well, how do you know?? Gaddafi said that. And Gaddafi is a liar (see: cease-fire). Therefore, what Gaddafi says is not true.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:25
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Koesj posted:msnbc enlightening us on the Clinton anti-genocide connection wrt the "Tutus and Hutsis in Rwanda". Apparently Hillary was egged on by her husband because he still feels bad for... the great ballet massacre?? lol one million dead dudes with funny names. Also France was backing the dudes doing most of the killing.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:26
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