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Somebody needs to get the message to the Libyan people to stay the hell indoors. I mean I've read of a few incidents already of people celebrating near places that are extremely likely to be bombed or a combat zone... what the hell are they thinking. Yeah there's planes in the air to support you but they also see everything moving as a potential enemy right now. On the flipside Obama should be hanging anyone by the balls who gets trigger happy over there. We've had enough of that over the years, it's time to clamp down on exactly what soldiers pull in "self-defense" without knowing who they're shooting.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:33
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Brown Moses posted:Also, seriously don't watch the video marked "HORRIFIC" on the LibyaFeb17 front page unless you are very jaded. Bags full of little kid
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Mar 22, 2011 19:33
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Sometimes people have to go outside to get food and stuff. Or go to the hospital or go to work.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:34
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Nonsense posted:How about you get over yourself, and realize American soldiers make poo poo loads of mistakes very often during operations? Sorry but they really do. They're already court-martialing some disgusting rear end in a top hat who went around with a few other soldiers murdering civilians wantonly in Afghanistan. These recovery guys obviously had no such intent, but they over reacted and civilians were hurt. Mistakes are made, often with no reason. The criticism wouldn't be so strong if it wasn't the very instant Marines set foot on the ground, the very first time that we are aware of them operating in Libya. It just sounds like they are trained to go "MARINE SMASH" and fire at everything everywhere all the time. Hopefully this is is just more bullshit and the pickup did occur completely without incident like the military said it did (and I suspect they are telling the truth given how much misinformation is coming from this conflict), but 'even soldiers make mistakes often' would not excuse the only publicly known boots on the ground operation being a bloodbath of friendlies.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:34
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Nonsense posted:How about you get over yourself, and realize American soldiers make poo poo loads of mistakes very often during operations? Sorry but they really do. They're already court-martialing some disgusting rear end in a top hat who went around with a few other soldiers murdering civilians wantonly in Afghanistan. These recovery guys obviously had no such intent, but they over reacted and civilians were hurt. Mistakes are made, often with no reason. Mistakes ARE made, but deciding who made a mistake in an incident you have virtually no information about is a pretty stupid thing to do. Even more so in an event that could easily have been the fault of either party involved. ESPECIALLY when neither side (including the "I got shot" one) seems to be particularly perturbed at the other one over the incident in the little bit of information that has come out.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:35
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Nonsense posted:The real PR story isn't the F-15, it's the loving piece of poo poo Osprey that actually worked. Despite the series of crashes in the 90s, they've been working pretty much flawlessly for a long time. They're probably more mechanically sound than Blackhawks.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:35
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Nonsense posted:The real PR story isn't the F-15, it's the loving piece of poo poo Osprey that actually worked. So one thing I'm taking away from this thread is that no country actually has properly functioning military equipment.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:36
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Nonsense posted:The real PR story isn't the F-15, it's the loving piece of poo poo Osprey that actually worked. Hey Ospreys have worked for a while dude but feel free to say uninformed nonsense.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:38
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Despite the series of crashes in the 90s, they've been working pretty much flawlessly for a long time. They're probably more mechanically sound than Blackhawks. I just remember so much money being pumped into the program, I figured like many other MIC programs it never actually gained mechanical efficiency.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:38
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I just looked it up and one Osprey has crashed in 11 years and that one was pilot error. It has been in active duty since 2007.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:38
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Hey Ospreys have worked for a while dude but feel free to say uninformed nonsense. Please keep defending military hardware when people cry about it.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:39
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Nonsense posted:Please keep defending military hardware when people cry about it. God forbid I try to correct ignorant nonsense from the LF set.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:40
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:God forbid I try to correct ignorant nonsense. You didn't correct poo poo, all you've been doing is sniping anybody with the nerve to criticize the United States military.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:41
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More explosions and AA fire being reported in Tripoli at this moment in time.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:43
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:God forbid I try to correct ignorant nonsense from the LF set. Nonsense posted:You didn't correct poo poo, all you've been doing is sniping anybody with the nerve to criticize the United States military. Take it to PMs or drop it.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:45
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Gaddafi advances despite nearly everything being thrown at him. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/libya-gaddafi-forces-offensive These rebels have been getting their poo poo together, but they're still quite far behind. Tripoli is probably just shooting at cruise missles, there's probably still a lot of installations to take down before fly boys bother going near the city.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:46
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Nonsense posted:You didn't correct poo poo, all you've been doing is sniping anybody with the nerve to criticize the United States military. The Osprey suffered from being an entirely new design and undergoing R&D during a time when any mouthbreathing retard could log onto AOL or a BBS and read about them falling into the Potomac. If I remember correctly, 5 Ospreys have gone down, with one of those in combat. Blackhawks have a fatal attraction with the ground, and a few F-22s have gone down during testing (2?) as well.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:48
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Suffice to say, the American rescue team was very likely in the wrong for shooting these people, but it's also likely that they had some rational if not excusable reason for doing so likely caused by a highly confusing situation. Just heard from a Norwegian journalist in eastern Libya that people are drawing weapons on each other suspecting each other of being enemies, so if anyone the guys who got shot are probably the most sympathetic towards those who shot them. There is a lot of confusion, and there are pro-Gaddafi cells in otherwise rebel held areas. Personally, I'm going to wait for the investigation, but hope they're keeping the rules of engagement in close regard. If the guys were indeed shot by a plane and not the rescue Ospreys, perhaps it's more understandable. Mozi posted:At least there were no casualties. 
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Mar 22, 2011 19:56
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movax posted:Blackhawks have a fatal attraction with the ground Regarding the pilot retrieval incident, let's not be too hasty to condemn either the PTSD Nazi war criminals or the Bunga-Bunga Al-Qaida villagers. It could be a lot more complicated chain of misunderstandings than you could possibly think of, given how little information there is as of yet. The US command will of course deny any error on their part, whatever the cause...
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Mar 22, 2011 19:57
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movax posted:The Osprey suffered from being an entirely new design and undergoing R&D during a time when any mouthbreathing retard could log onto AOL or a BBS and read about them falling into the Potomac. Air safety for military aircraft seems to be the word of the day. I just had a debate on a Swedish forum about the JAS 39 Gripen which (still) suffers from a bad rep due to this very public crash. It's ironic since Gripen is one of the safest aircraft in the world when you compare incidents to flight hours. As for whether we're going to send any? No word from the government. Spineless bastards are still trying to get a feel for where the wind blows.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:57
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:So we have a Channel 4 News Report saying that the villagers were shot when the helicopter picked the pilot up, an AP report saying that the villagers were shot when a plane strafed the field after the ejection, and the military saying that it didn't happen and that it wasn't even helicopters that evacuated them (edit: though, to be fair, the Osprey looks like a helicopter, but you would think an English journalist would take care of those nuances). I don't think we know enough to say anything for sure yet. It even seems possible to me that the Osprey was fired at first by a villager since they might well still assume that anything in the air is part of Gaddafi's forces (see: the rebel plane that got shot down), in which case it's not surprising they'd fire back. I'm not saying that the helicopter pilots weren't necessarily acting recklessly, but I'm not saying that they were either. There's not enough information yet to make an informed judgement. Also, most British journalists are just as dumb as American ones when it comes to the nuances of military technology. You'll see plenty of 'tanks' which are actually BRDMs and so on.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:03
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Nenonen posted:Humbug, I won't believe it until I see a movie about it! Serious funny post. Why isn't AJE carrying more live coverage?
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Mar 22, 2011 20:03
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Stroh M.D. posted:Air safety for military aircraft seems to be the word of the day. I just had a debate on a Swedish forum about the JAS 39 Gripen which (still) suffers from a bad rep due to this very public crash. I'd love to know what happened to this particular F-15E, but I don't think the AF will release any type of incident report publicly as this was a combat sortie, not a training mission back in the States or in an Allied country. It could have been way more embarrassing and awful, that's for sure, like the pilots ejecting and the fighter slamming into an orphanage. Or if the F-22 was deployed, and one went down, and nearby civilians are wiped out by the barrage of missiles to destroy the wreckage.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:05
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Nonsense posted:How about you get over yourself, and realize American soldiers make poo poo loads of mistakes very often during operations? Sorry but they really do. Yep, they sure do, and this could be one of those situations. However, what makes you think Libyan villagers don't also make poo poo loads of mistakes when put in this kind of situation? We just don't know enough yet to call it either way.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:08
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feedmegin posted:I don't think we know enough to say anything for sure yet. It even seems possible to me that the Osprey was fired at first by a villager since they might well still assume that anything in the air is part of Gaddafi's forces (see: the rebel plane that got shot down), in which case it's not surprising they'd fire back. But anything with armour has to be a tank, right? Isn't that the definition of tank? Isn't it? Seriously though, I still doubt the rebels would have fired against the Osprey and now I doubt that the marines fired either. Neither makes much sense - the rebels know perfectly well at this point that Gadaffi is grounded, the plane that got shot down was before the NFZ was in place. But the US army usually does not flat out lie about incidents like this. I'm leaning towards a third option, whatever that may be.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:09
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In a Finnish interview the retired ex-commander of Finnish Defence Forces, General Gustav Hägglund questions the wisdom of Finnish government for sending a navy ship to participate in Operation Atalanta in the Somalian coast but not sending F-18 Hornets to enforce the NFZ in Libya. His reasoning, and I quote: "We have these fine fighters. This would be a great experience for the pilots to be participating in something like this and this would benefit us internationally if we went in. We would learn new things, so far we have only participated in international maneuvers. This would be a real operation and it would be beneficial to us." "Are we in and in what bredth in international crisis management? This would be much more reasonable than sending a ship to hunt pirates in Somalia."
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Mar 22, 2011 20:32
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Europe: War... kinda cool now that we think about it.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:36
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I don't understand that graphic, Nenonen, doesn't it say the opposite of what he's saying?
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Mar 22, 2011 20:37
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Stroh M.D. posted:
Really? You really think the US army does not typically lie and manipulate about civilian deaths?
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Mar 22, 2011 20:37
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farraday posted:Europe: War... kinda cool now that we think about it.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:39
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Vir posted:I don't understand that graphic, Nenonen, doesn't it say the opposite of what he's saying? It is supposed to reflect the Finnish government's standing - yes to Atalanta, no to Gaddafi Dusk (I forget the real name). It's rather confusing considering that the tabloid rag has put Hägglund on top of it, I agree.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:46
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shotgunbadger posted:Really? You really think the US army does not typically lie and manipulate about civilian deaths? Generally speaking, no. The times they have has come back to bite them in the rear and the public usually accept collateral, provided no actual malicious intent was involved. Claiming that the soldiers were under pressure and felt threatened? Sure. Insinuating that some blame lies on the victims? Definitely. Outright lie and deny it even took place? Those are quite rare.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:48
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UAE backed out of the NFZ because they weren't happy with US/Europe's statements on Bahrain.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:52
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The captain's rebuttal is uncharacteristically assertive too. Furthermore, the shooting of civilians story fits the pattern of pro-regime propaganda.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:53
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Stroh M.D. posted:But the US army usually does not flat out lie about incidents like this.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:58
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movax posted:I'd love to know what happened to this particular F-15E Whatever it was, it doesn't seem to have been all that catastrophic -- obviously bad enough that the pilot didn't think it was worth hanging around trying to fix it, but the wreckage is still reasonably airplane-shaped, rather than scattered across the countryside in tiny bits/nothing but a smoking crater as is typical of jet fighter crashes.
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Mar 22, 2011 21:00
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Slantedfloors posted:There was a thread only a few days ago about an incident where a bunch of Afghani kids got randomly killed in a helicopter attack, and the official response from Petraeus was "Maybe their parents murdered them to make us look bad". It was off the record, but he didn't deny the incident (a bombing I believe) occurred, just who did it. In this case, it is unusual to flat out lie about the shooting even happening, but that doesn't mean it didn't.
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Mar 22, 2011 21:02
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Xandu posted:UAE backed out of the NFZ because they weren't happy with US/Europe's statements on Bahrain. Speaking of shooting civilians...
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Mar 22, 2011 21:06
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Xandu posted:It was off the record, but he didn't deny the incident (a bombing I believe) occurred, just who did it. In this case, it is unusual to flat out lie about the shooting even happening, but that doesn't mean it didn't. Not to mention the fact that the rebels aren't even blaming them, whoevers fault it might have been. From where I stand, the US has far more to lose by lying about it - especially when it has already reached the media - than saying "poo poo happens", move on and be glad no-one was killed. Well, yet, at the least.
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Mar 22, 2011 21:09
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God, if the USAF got caught flat out lying about something like this they'd be crucified. Given how many reporters there are from news agencies all around the world, it'd not be a question of if but when such a thing would be exposed. Always better to get ahead of the story and spin it for damage control than to engage in a ham-fisted coverup. Have there been no further developments in the story? That really seems unusual.
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Mar 22, 2011 21:13
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