Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

President of Rwanda: Liberals, stop using us as an excuse not to get involved.

BBC

quote:

#
1857: Some endorsement for the no-fly zone from President Paul Kagame of Rwanda, whose country lost more than 800,000 people in a genocide in 1994. He told the BBC's Africa Have Your Say programme: "It was the right thing to do. I fully support that. The fact that mistakes were made elsewhere in other instances doesn't make it right not to act in this particular case."

Okay maybe I'm poorly paraphrasing. It also looks like agreement is close/achieved on the command control structure of the operation.

Also in the news from the Guardian

quote:

8.17pm: Sky News has reported that US military sources confirmed to Fox News that shots were fired during the rescue operation of US pilots whose plane crashed in eastern Libya on Monday night

farraday fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:19

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# ? May 21, 2024 17:30

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

kw0134 posted:

God, if the USAF got caught flat out lying about something like this they'd be crucified. Given how many reporters there are from news agencies all around the world, it'd not be a question of if but when such a thing would be exposed. Always better to get ahead of the story and spin it for damage control than to engage in a ham-fisted coverup.

Have there been no further developments in the story? That really seems unusual.

Well, the Marines say "No way Jose, not us", and there really aren't that many reporters on the ground to get a hold of the victims. Not to mention that said reporters appear to be a bit occupied with getting any kind of grasp on the conflict as a whole.

Here's the original source again: http://www.channel4.com/news/third-night-of-bombing-in-libya/

Reporter: Lindsey Hilsum, of Channel 4 News, the story first appeared in her blog:

http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/shooting-first-and-hitting-the-people-they-came-to-protect/15620

Sources:
- Colonel Sayid, rebel. Retold the story to Hilsum.
- Hamad Abdul Ati, bystander, victim. Interviewed at a hospital where he was receiving care for his wounds.

It should be added that Hilsum isn't exactly balanced in the report. Quotes:

quote:

Osprey aircraft came in, all guns blazing, assuming � as the American military tends to do � that this was hostile territory.

quote:

But because the American military works on the assumption that anyone around could be hostile, it may be why it all went horribly wrong. Which is how the US airforce ended up injuring some of the Libyan civilians it�s supposedly here to save.

This suggests a bias.

EDIT: Here's a third theory for you. The US military source may have mixed up the two missions. Perhaps he thought the reporters asked about the other mission to recover the second pilot, who all agree was extracted without incident.

Stroh M.D. fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:29

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Well if the Guardian says Sky News says that Fox News was told something, it must have happened. Seriously though, the initial C4 report is pretty believable, so now it's odd that it was denied if it happened.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:29

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Xandu posted:

Well if the Guardian says Sky News says that Fox News was told something, it must have happened. Seriously though, the initial C4 report is pretty believable, so now it's odd that it was denied if it happened.

Yeah the daisy chain of reporting there is a bit convoluted, but it it more confirmation than simply Channel 4.

Here's something directly from Fox

quote:

An hour later, seven aircraft were deployed for the rescue mission from the USS Kearsarge 100 miles away in the Mediterranean Sea, according to Marine sources. Two AV-B8 Harriers in the deployment dropped bombs between the downed pilot and enemies he thought were approaching them. The pilot was in communication with the rescue team and was able to coordinate the ordinance.

Officials said they were unaware if anyone was hurt in the two bombings.

farraday fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:31

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's various tweets saying coalition aircraft are attacking Gaddafi troops in and around Misrata tonight, finally.
http://twitter.com/ChangeInLibya

quote:

@ShababLibya Caller to BBC from Misrata: really happy with strikes, and calling for more, destroyed his base to the south and a convoy to the west

quote:

Caller to BBC from Misrata: really happy with strikes, and calling for more, destroyed his base to the south and a convoy to the west

quote:

A BBC caller seems to confirm that coalition jets attacked Gaddafi troops killing civilians in Misurata. Great news!

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:33

-Dethstryk-: Oct 20, 2000

Stroh M.D. posted:

It should be added that Hilsum isn't exactly balanced in the report. Quotes:

This suggests a bias.

I'm not sure if it's biased to say that the U.S. military is treating most everywhere as being hostile. Is there some reason to think that's not normal for a situation like this? It seems like everything is so fluid right now, you can't assume anywhere is safe.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:35

Fidel Cuckstro: Jul 2, 2007

-Dethstryk- posted:

I'm not sure if it's biased to say that the U.S. military is treating most everywhere as being hostile. Is there some reason to think that's not normal for a situation like this? It seems like everything is so fluid right now, you can't assume anywhere is safe.

That wasn't the biased part.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:38

-Dethstryk-: Oct 20, 2000

DeclaredYuppie posted:

That wasn't the biased part.

Oh. I completely missed the "Which is how the US airforce ended up injuring some of the Libyan civilians it�s supposedly here to save" part of it because I just saw two matching themes and assumed that was it. Whoops.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:39

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

-Dethstryk- posted:

I'm not sure if it's biased to say that the U.S. military is treating most everywhere as being hostile. Is there some reason to think that's not normal for a situation like this? It seems like everything is so fluid right now, you can't assume anywhere is safe.

EDIT: Wrote this before your reply, please ignore.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:39

JIR499: Jul 29, 2008

A Marine captain on the Kearsarge denied that Marines on the V-22 Osprey opened fire. But that might not exclude any firing by US forces:

Denial (UK Telegraph)

quote:

"No shots were fired," said Capt Richard Ulsh of the Marines. "The Osprey is not armed and the Marines barely got off the aircraft. I was in the landing force operations centre the whole time, where we were monitoring what was going on, and firing was never reported. Had it been reported we would have considered deploying a quick reaction force, and that never happened."

...

A second plane strafed the field where the pilot went down.

Perhaps the F-15s wingman came down to ground level, or another coalition aircraft scouting the area for parachutes opened fire.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:42

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

JIR499 posted:

A Marine captain on the Kearsarge denied that Marines on the V-22 Osprey opened fire. But that might not exclude any firing by US forces:

Denial (UK Telegraph)

Perhaps the F-15s wingman came down to ground level, or another coalition aircraft scouting the area for parachutes opened fire.

This is what prompted my third theory, that some confusion led the captain to believe that the reporters asked about the second extraction, that didn't run into trouble.

From what I've deduced, the Harriers co-ordinated their bombing runs with the rescue team on the Osprey, and according to all logic they should in turn have reported the runs to the captain.

Then again, there could be another chain of command for the Harriers. Or miscommunication.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:48

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Some Tweets about the situation in Zintan from http://twitter.com/ChangeInLibya

quote:

Zintan was completely cleared earlier today al7amdullilah it's the city nearby now that's getting shelled.. forgot name

quote:

Locals cleared it, after coalition apparently hit a convoy coming from Sabha to reinforce the G troops

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:53

Chronojam: Feb 20, 2006; This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

Stroh M.D. posted:

It should be added that Hilsum isn't exactly balanced in the report. Quotes:

quote:
Osprey aircraft came in, all guns blazing, assuming � as the American military tends to do � that this was hostile territory.

This suggests a bias.

All guns blazing? An Osprey is not exactly a Hind or a Huey here, the drat thing only has one optional add-on .308 gun on the bottom and maybe a guy with an optional add-on .308 and lovely view angles shooting out the back hatch once you land. You're not cruising around gunning down hostiles in an Osprey.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

NYTimes has this on the rescue

quote:

Admiral Locklear did not say whether Libyan civilians or rebels found the weapons officer, and provided few other details.

But a Marine Corps officer said that two Harrier attack jets dropped two 500-pound bombs during the rescue of the pilot, about 1:30 a.m. Tuesday local time (about 7:30 p.m. Monday E.D.T.). The officer said that the grounded pilot, who was in contact with rescue crews in the air, asked for the bombs to be dropped as a precaution before the crews landed to pick him up.

�My understanding is he asked for the ordnance to be delivered between where he was located and where he saw people coming towards him,� the officer said, adding that the pilot evidently made the request �to keep what he thought was a force closing in on him from closing in on him.�

The officer said he did not know if the people approaching the pilot were friendly or hostile or whether any Libyans had been killed or injured in the explosions from the bombs.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:55

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Orkiec posted:

Also, this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation, but I remember seeing a Youtube video from Tahrir Square posted way back in this thread. They would say a verse and then say something along the lines of HA HA HA. Can anybody relink this?

This is from pages back, but here you go.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:55

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Brown Moses posted:

NYTimes has this on the rescue

Oh god that is horrible. Are those Americans going to get in trouble/prosecuted?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:58

Seizure Meat: Jul 23, 2008; by Smythe

Chronojam posted:

All guns blazing? An Osprey is not exactly a Hind or a Huey here, the drat thing only has one optional add-on .308 gun on the bottom and maybe a guy with an optional add-on .308 and lovely view angles shooting out the back hatch once you land. You're not cruising around gunning down hostiles in an Osprey.

Oh man, now you're giving the Defense Department all kinds of ideas.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 21:58

Chronojam: Feb 20, 2006; This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

JIR499 posted:

A Marine captain on the Kearsarge denied that Marines on the V-22 Osprey opened fire. But that might not exclude any firing by US forces:

Denial (UK Telegraph)

Perhaps the F-15s wingman came down to ground level, or another coalition aircraft scouting the area for parachutes opened fire.

Most Ospreys don't even have the optional gun so it's not unbelievable that the Osprey was unarmed, and an F-15's autocannons are designed for anti-materiel purposes. They're not simple machine guns like on World War aircraft and are entirely unsuitable for warning shots or just scaring people so they'll run.

None of it adds up. Ospreys weren't blazing guns, and modernesque fighters weren't giving warning shots.

^^^^ :ohdear:

They do have a good combat radius...

Edit: Oh gently caress, bombs? Yeah, that's probably a good explanation for how the guy got shrapnel in his back. I'm not sure how reporters or witnesses would confuse that with a pow-pow from guns, or miss the explosions :psyduck:

Chronojam fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:01

Competition: Apr 3, 2006; by Fistgrrl

Stroh M.D. posted:

This suggests a bias.

Marines are notorious for using excess force and perpetrating war crimes, there are accounts from Iraq where insurgents went out of their way to target marines because of the hate they have for them, in some cases ignoring easier targets (such as the Army).

Citing the reputation of the US militarily's heavy handedness is hardly bias.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:03

Zappatista: Oct 28, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Could what happened come from trying to bomb the wrecked plane to prevent Ghadafi's forces from stripping it of its weapons and/or using it for propaganda value? Isn't destroying wrecked aircraft that can't be retrieved standard USAF operating procedure?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:04

Korak: Nov 29, 2007; TV FACIST

^^^ Yes it is standard procedure to blow up downed aircraft like that.

euphronius posted:

Oh god that is horrible. Are those Americans going to get in trouble/prosecuted?

It's apparently legal to drop ordinance on your own military craft, so they cannot get in trouble for that. If the helicopter crew did shoot civvies then it'll be up to the specifics of the engagement. I know at one time the RoI allowed the military to engage if the pilots feared for their safety, but that may have been changed in the last few years.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:05

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Chronojam posted:

All guns blazing? An Osprey is not exactly a Hind or a Huey here, the drat thing only has one optional add-on .308 gun on the bottom and maybe a guy with an optional add-on .308 and lovely view angles shooting out the back hatch once you land. You're not cruising around gunning down hostiles in an Osprey.

IIRC some Ospreys in Iraq were jury-rigged with door machine guns but I don't know if it's a standard part of their equipment.

Competition posted:

Marines are notorious for using excess force and perpetrating war crimes, there are accounts from Iraq where insurgents went out of their way to target marines because of the hate they have for them, in some cases ignoring easier targets (such as the Army).

Citing the reputation of the US militarily's heavy handedness is hardly bias.

Uh... some citations would be appreciated here.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:06

Sten Freak: Sep 10, 2008; Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.; College Slice

euphronius posted:

Oh god that is horrible. Are those Americans going to get in trouble/prosecuted?

Do Americans fly Harriers?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:08

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

^^^
US ~~Navy~~ Marine Corps does have some Harriers, but I don't know if they have them present here. edit: checked it, British have retired their Harriers so most likely it is USMC.

Regarding bias, there is a slight difference between a newsreport and a reporter's opinion, like a blog posting. Opinion pieces are allowed to be more strongly worded than news. Any respectable journalist could call Gaddafi as an insane tinpot dictator in an opinion column , but for a news article that would be out of line.

Nenonen fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:08

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

euphronius posted:

Oh god that is horrible. Are those Americans going to get in trouble/prosecuted?

For not knowing the people coming at him in the middle of the night after his jet crashed were friendly or not?

If that particular article is on the money, I don't see where anyone did anything wrong.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:10

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

VikingSkull posted:

Oh man, now you're giving the Defense Department all kinds of ideas.

It's not like they haven't thought about it already:

How do you make your aircraft more gung-ho? Add a minigun! For bonus points, make your penis enhancement look like a penis!

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:11

Chronojam: Feb 20, 2006; This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

Sten Freak posted:

Do Americans fly Harriers?

The ~~McDonnel Douglass~~ Boeing AV-8B Harrier II, yes. The USS Kearsarge marine helicarrier amphibious assault ship we've got parked off Libya's coast has them.

\/\/\/ She's literally making poo poo up.

Chronojam fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:13

Stroh M.D.: Mar 19, 2011; The eyes can mislead, a smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth.

Nenonen posted:

^^^
US ~~Navy~~ Marine Corps does have some Harriers, but I don't know if they have them present here. edit: checked it, British have retired their Harriers so most likely it is USMC.

Regarding bias, there is a slight difference between a newsreport and a reporter's opinion, like a blog posting. Opinion pieces are allowed to be more strongly worded than news. Any respectable journalist could call Gaddafi as an insane tinpot dictator in an opinion column , but for a news article that would be out of line.

That's the problem with Hilsum. Her blog entry is a news report in all but name, but because it's a blog she can get away by shouting "opinion piece" if she gets critique.

She muddies the waters.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:15

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Stroh M.D. posted:

That's the problem with Hilsum. Her blog entry is a news report in all but name, but because it's a blog she can get away by shouting "opinion piece" if she gets critique.

She muddies the waters.

Yes, it looks like that. Is she a professional journalist? *checks* Oh yes, apparently an award winning one who was in Rwanda when things went bad and so on. Maybe she has figured that at this point she can say anything, like call the Queen a baby-flesh-eating goatman and get away with it.

Or maybe she's trying to invent some sort of Journalism 2.0 Beta: not as professional and slow as usual journalism, not as unprofessional and quick as Tweets. Seems to work for her so far...

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:21

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

IRQ posted:

For not knowing the people coming at him in the middle of the night after his jet crashed were friendly or not?

If that particular article is on the money, I don't see where anyone did anything wrong.

This whole 'shoot first with the slightest possible justification without any effort to verify if targets are hostile, maybe ask some questions later' attitude the US military has is a large part of why it's vilified the world over.

e: That and sticking its nose where no one wants it, but for once that's not the case.

AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Mar 22, 2011

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:23

Competition: Apr 3, 2006; by Fistgrrl

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Uh... some citations would be appreciated here.

Look up the Haditha killings and the various reports in wikileaks of heavy handed assaults against civilians by the US military (which were subsiquently brushed aside), combined with ASPA being passed where it's only goal is to protect US troops from being prosecuted for war crimes and authorises the invasion of the Netherlands to do so. The US military has gained a reputation it seems completely unconcerned about.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:31

LO Technology: Mar 5, 2011; by Fistgrrl

I wouldn't worry too much about this conflict. Harriers are pretty much like Ospreys.

As Mr. Gadaffi has wisely informed the world, this is now about drawings of a prophet. http://www.cphpost.dk/classifieds/services/51251.html?task=view

I'm pretty sure my country will stay around for a couple of days. We might even draw a few cartoons.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:32

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

IRQ posted:

For not knowing the people coming at him in the middle of the night after his jet crashed were friendly or not?

If that particular article is on the money, I don't see where anyone did anything wrong.

Dropping bombs indiscrimitly is problematic and possibly criminal. Who knows who those people were.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:32

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Few bits of news
Ajdabiya

quote:

Al Jazeera Arabic
Revolutionaries in east Ajdabiya have just managed to destroy 2 tanks and 2 fuel tankers belonging to Gaddafi forces in the city.

quote:

Al Jazeera Arabic
Revolutionaries are in complete control of Ajdabiya right now. The flags of independence are raised over many areas of the city but clashes occur from time to time with Gaddafi�s forces in the east and west. The revolutionaries choose to attack Gaddafi�s troops during the night time as that is proving to be most effective.

Zintan

quote:

Almanara Media conducted an interview with an eyewitness from Zintan around an hour ago. We bring it you fully translated in English
Interviewer:May peace be with you my brother Khalid
Eyewitness: May peace be with you too
Interviewer: How has the situation been for you in Zintan today?
Eyewitness: The situation is good, God-willing my brother. We were able to defeat the remaining regime troops and overpowering them out of the city
Interviewer: Praise be to God. Please tell me what happened from the morning what happened to you. Did the coalition forces participate or intervene?
Eyewitness: No, they were defeated by the help of the revolutionaries only. Since 4am we started attacking them and defeated them. They retreated to�Tripoli or Gheryan after they sustained serious losses
Interviewer: They were based near a weapons dump or ammunition storage or something like that?
Eyewitness: They were positioned in a place with their own weaponry and ammunition stores east of Zintan. We managed to separate them from these stores they were positioned next to. We also managed to destroy their machinery and we killed a number of them which forced them to retreat and flee
Interviewer: God is Greater and to Him be all praise, God is Greater and to Him be all praise. Right, and the situation now in Zintan, how is?
Eyewitness: Praise be to God, the situation is good. We had 7 martyrs today and we buried them in the late afternoon, and praise be to God.
Interviewer: Praise be to God. Right, from the borders of Zintan, up to which point are you comfortable in control and not fearful of any clashes between yourself and the mercenaries?
Eyewitness: Regarding us, praise be to God, we chased them out of Zintan by approximately 30km. All the areas are currently safe after we seized their machinery and destroyed/burned it.
Interviewer: Praise be to God. So since dawn and you have been engaged in clashes with them?
Eyewitness: Since Dawn yes, the revolutionaries surprised them. You can say that the youth conducted martyrdom missions. This battatlion HAD to be destroyed. And as you know, success is from your Lord, and we managed to defeat them as they are cowards. We completely destroyed them even those fled we attacked them and chased them to the areas of Yefrin, Ghanaymah and Gelaa while they were running away
Interviewer: Right, we ask God to accept our brothers who were martyred, and that he may show them mercy and elevate you and grant you success.
Eyewitness: Ameen, 5 of them were from Zintan and 2 from Sabratha. We also had brothers fighting with us from Nalut, Jadu, Rijbaan and Gel�aa. And praise be to God we managed to defeat them and God-willing we will be able to destroy those who are under the mountain who have the rocket launchers
Interviewer: Ameen. May God protect you all
Eyewitness: God-willing

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:32

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

This whole 'shoot first with the slightest possible justification without any effort to verify if targets are hostile, maybe ask some questions later' attitude the US military has is a large part of why it's vilified the world over.

euphronius posted:

Dropping bombs indiscrimitly is problematic and possibly criminal. Who knows who those people were.

Yes well that's not entirely accurate (assuming the article is correct).

quote:

�My understanding is he asked for the ordnance to be delivered between where he was located and where he saw people coming towards him,� the officer said, adding that the pilot evidently made the request �to keep what he thought was a force closing in on him from closing in on him.�

Between is not on top of, which you appear to be thinking it was. Yeah the US military, and every other military, will gently caress up, and that's not good. But in this case I really can't find fault, it's just a really lovely situation for all involved. How on earth was anyone supposed to know whether or not the people approaching were friendly or planning to lop off the guy's head?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:34

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

I can't believe they translated Allah as God! :downs:

Good news on both fronts though, lets hope it continues.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:36

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

That's the point! He didn't know. It was entirely reckless.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:36

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

euphronius posted:

That's the point! He didn't know.

So... he should have just hoped they weren't going to kill him? That doesn't seem like a very good idea. I think dropping some bombs between him and the group to let them know to stop coming at him is the better idea.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:39

LO Technology: Mar 5, 2011; by Fistgrrl

farraday posted:

I can't believe they translated Allah as God!

That's actually pretty correct. If you believe in that poo poo.

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:39

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# ? May 21, 2024 17:30

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

IRQ posted:

Yes well that's not entirely accurate (assuming the article is correct).

How is it inaccurate? Did anyone actually verify who they were bombing and/or shooting, because it certainly sounds like a situation where they saw some people and decided they needed to be dead without any attempt to figure out who they were and why they were there.

IRQ posted:

Between is not on top of, which you appear to be thinking it was. Yeah the US military, and every other military, will gently caress up, and that's not good. But in this case I really can't find fault, it's just a really lovely situation for all involved. How on earth was anyone supposed to know whether or not the people approaching were friendly or planning to lop off the guy's head?

Except the US military does it with callous disregard, then tries to handwave it away after (usually blaming the victim, I guess those people certainly deserved to die for daring to walk anywhere near an American). Constantly. When do you start holding someone responsible for constantly making fatal "mistakes" and making no significant effort to reduce those mistakes?

# ? Mar 22, 2011 22:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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