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Stroh M.D. posted:Oh, and Libyas current official flag is this: In all honesty, the image I get of Ghadaffi is a man who is completely out of his element, like some sort of Peter-Principal warlord. I'm not going to deny that he's got a certain kind of cunning, and that he probably inspires leadership in his followers with that ability, but he's not intelligent. You can see it in his ideas - the monocolour flag, the childish proposal for "Isratine", the constant "You should make me King of Africa" proposals to the African Union, the "Oh yeah, Reagan? You want to bomb me for training terrorists? Well why don't you try it, big ma... OH GOD OH GOD" debacles. He just has absolutely no idea how to actually run a country and has only gotten this far because Libya has oil and no one else commands enough of the military. He's a thug who somehow wound up falling into a king's throne. He wants the golden toilets and Amazon army, but never actually bothered to learn how an economy works or how to gauge international relations. Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 19:04
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Slantedfloors posted:Or, you know, the Tricolour Libyan flag that the Rebels are sewing/glueing/painting on everything they have. Not exactly grannies, but close.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:04
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evilweasel posted:The Supreme Court has never (and probably will never) decided the constitutional dispute, so it's essentially a political issue.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:09
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President Kucinich posted:Yep, it is my understanding that the SCOTUS does not intervene regarding situations where congress willingly abdicates certain responsibilities to the president. Not quite, they almost certainly wouldn't intervene if Congress itself sued or the like. Its more the Supreme Court has certain subjects that it simply refuses to get involved with ("political question" doctrine) and this strikes me as the best example: the Supreme Court is never going to issue the sort of orders to the military that would be required in this sort of dispute ("the air force is directed to get out of country X", ect). If Congress wants that, the Congress can deal with it itself and impeach the President, and the Supreme Court isn't going to do it for them. It has intervened in cases where Congress delegated excessive authority to executive branch officials (or even the President) and yanked it back. The line-item veto is one example. evilweasel fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 19:14
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Stroh M.D. posted:It's the same flag that was Libyas official flag between 1951 and 1969. It could have been around, or in storage, or even used as an unofficial symbol for dissent far longer than this years revolution. After he wrote the Green Book, Gadaffi got it in his head to try and export green flags to a bunch of other African countries too. This thing very nearly became the flag of the Central African Republic after a visit by Gadaffi in 1976: 
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Mar 23, 2011 19:21
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Stroh M.D. posted:What's Dansk Folkepartis take on this? I now for a fact that their Swedish wannabees, Sverigedemokraterna, is the only Swedish party at the moment who opposes Sweden sending forces. I heard the French Front National are also critical, about the French contribution. The Danish parliament voted unanimously for military intervention in Libya, with even the usually pacifist Red-Greens joining in, which was pretty unusual. While the rest of the parties seemed eager to go to war, the Red-Greens and the Danish People's Party made a point out of mentioning what a tough decision it had been for them.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:27
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Stroh M.D. posted:What's Dansk Folkepartis take on this? I now for a fact that their Swedish wannabees, Sverigedemokraterna, is the only Swedish party at the moment who opposes Sweden sending forces. I heard the French Front National are also critical, about the French contribution. DF is positive towards the NFZ, but opposes troops on the ground. My personal opinion is: yes, we should send troops to get rid of that psycho and give the people of Libya a chance for democracy. Better late than never. And then politicians begin actually referring to dictators as such, regardless of whetherr or not we hurt their feelings and mutual trade interests. And then pigs grow wings. Well one can dream.... But it seems undeniable for me that the west has some (a lot) of atonement to be done on account of supporting, or doing nothing, while dictators terrorize their own people.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:52
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evilweasel posted:Not quite, they almost certainly wouldn't intervene if Congress itself sued or the like. Its more the Supreme Court has certain subjects that it simply refuses to get involved with ("political question" doctrine) and this strikes me as the best example: the Supreme Court is never going to issue the sort of orders to the military that would be required in this sort of dispute ("the air force is directed to get out of country X", ect). If Congress wants that, the Congress can deal with it itself and impeach the President, and the Supreme Court isn't going to do it for them. There isn't much of an argument for the Libyan intervention being illegal, but the decision certainly was undemocratic as all hell. It's understandable that sometimes the executive will have to use military force without legislative consent because there is an emergency threat to the country, but that wasn't the case here. Based on what has come out in public, Obama clearly had the time for a lot of back and forth within his own administration over the extent and manner of American involvement, even whether it should have happened in the first place. I think that the question of why this was never put up for legislative or public debate is a perfectly reasonable complaint against the president. Especially when Obama himself has decried executive overreach and promised a more democratic approach to the use of force.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:55
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Nih posted:The Danish parliament voted unanimously for military intervention in Libya, with even the usually pacifist Red-Greens joining in, which was pretty unusual. While the rest of the parties seemed eager to go to war, the Red-Greens and the Danish People's Party made a point out of mentioning what a tough decision it had been for them. Seems that makes them the odd man out, turns out the British National Party are also strongly against the intervention: http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/attack-libya-%E2%80%93-nick-griffin-slams-puppet-cameron The link itself pretty much covers it. Then again, the DFP have always been the odd man out. They don't share the other parties origins and ties to neo-nazism. But it means they've sure come a long way from their roots in Fremskridtspartiet, who's party leader Mogens Glistrup at one point wanted to replace the Danish military with an answering machine looping the message "We surrender" in Russian.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:58
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Stroh M.D. posted:But it means they've sure come a long way from their roots in Fremskridtspartiet, who's party leader Mogens Glistrup at one point wanted to replace the Danish military with an answering machine looping the message "We surrender" in Russian. Holy poo poo, I thought this was a joke, but nope. Tell me it is!  Is this like, the Rhino Party or something?
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Mar 23, 2011 20:01
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:There isn't much of an argument for the Libyan intervention being illegal, but the decision certainly was undemocratic as all hell. It's understandable that sometimes the executive will have to use military force without legislative consent because there is an emergency threat to the country, but that wasn't the case here. Based on what has come out in public, Obama clearly had the time for a lot of back and forth within his own administration over the extent and manner of American involvement, even whether it should have happened in the first place. and transparency. I think this is a valid and reasonable line of thinking more so than ITS ABSOLUTELY ILLEGAL IMPEACH.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:08
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AJE just had a reporter in Tripoli saying the reporters there had asked the Libyan authorities if they could visit the families of the supposed civilian casualties, or homes hit by coalition weapons, and eventually they were driven around Tripoli with the Libyan officals trying to find someone they could talk to, or something they could look at, but after a few hours they had to give up when they couldn't find any.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:10
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Nombres posted:Holy poo poo, I thought this was a joke, but nope. Tell me it is! The party operated on a shock doctrine. The answering machine gig is mentioned in their Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Denmark) It was the first real populist party Denmark had and it was the definition of a "discontent party", a party that receives votes mainly from people who want to signal their disappointment in the other parties. Here are their original main issues: quote:Main issues The fourth point is still carried by the Danish Peoples Party, so be it in a reduced form. They managed to get 15,9 % in 1973 and have been dropping steadily ever since. The Danish Peoples Party broke away from them in 1995, after being fed up with "anarchistic" and "all-or nothing" views. Stroh M.D. fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 20:12
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Pretty good insight into the US's reasoning here.http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110323/ts_yblog_theenvoy/averting-srebrenica-on-steroids-white-house-defends-libya-operations posted:"This is a limited humanitarian intervention, not war," White House Middle East strategist Dennis Ross, National Security Council strategic planning official Derek Chollet, and two military officials told a group of outside foreign policy and Middle East experts during a briefing at the White House Roosevelt Room Tuesday.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:37
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:There isn't much of an argument for the Libyan intervention being illegal, but the decision certainly was undemocratic as all hell. It's understandable that sometimes the executive will have to use military force without legislative consent because there is an emergency threat to the country, but that wasn't the case here. Based on what has come out in public, Obama clearly had the time for a lot of back and forth within his own administration over the extent and manner of American involvement, even whether it should have happened in the first place. You're welcome to try to change that, and god knows there's been a constant tug-of-war since Washington and the first Congress. But Kucinich is definitely not in the mainstream in demanding this level of oversight on the President in a case like this, and the way the rest of Congress views his motion here as a stunt than actual lawmaking tends to speak for itself.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:38
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The other democratic method to check Obama is to vote him out of office.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:42
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euphronius posted:The other democratic method to check Obama is to vote him out of office. I'll be sure to pass along your message to the electoral college.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:48
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euphronius posted:The other democratic method to check Obama is to vote him out of office. Obama is going to raise a billion dollars by next year, he's going remain our Communist/Atheist/Islam President.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:54
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Xandu posted:Pretty good insight into the US's reasoning here. "We were looking at 'Srebrenica on steroids' —the real or imminent possibility that up to a 100,000 people could be massacred, and everyone would blame us for it Ah, steroids, when things can't get any more extreme (20 second mark) As for the motivation, it's pretty much what I expected from day one. Obama really didn't want a third war. But he never really had a choice with this one - the consequences of sitting it out would probably be greater than getting in fast, dropping some bombs and getting out before the public has time to form an aversion to the involvement.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:57
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Nonsense posted:Obama is going to raise a billion dollars by next year, he's going remain our Communist/Atheist/Islam President. Don't forget Kenyan! 
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Mar 23, 2011 21:00
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Stroh M.D. posted:Don't forget Kenyan! Excuse me, haven't you heard, Obama is actually Libyan, Gaddafi called him his son?
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Mar 23, 2011 21:02
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Nonsense posted:Excuse me, haven't you heard, Obama is actually Libyan, Gaddafi called him his son? Kenya, Libya, Indonesia. If it ends with an a and you can't pronounce it, it's all Muslim.
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Mar 23, 2011 21:04
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Tripoliquote:Guardian Eight explosions were heard in the east of Tripoli this evening and smoke was seen rising into the night sky, local residents have told Reuters. quote:@iyad_elbaghdadi: Two sources are reporting very loud explosions coming from Mitiga airport in Tripoli. quote:@iyad_elbaghdadi: Libya state TV is saying the explosions come from the civilian district of Tajura. While Tajura residents say it's coming from Mitiga. quote:@ChangeInLibya : Source in Tripoli: All 8 explosions heard today were in the military storage area/section of Mitiga airport. quote:Guardian A doctor in the rebel-held city of Misrata has told Reuters that regime forces are closing in on the hospital where locals had described difficult conditions in recent days. quote:@LibyanDictator : Misrata still experiencing shelling. 2 have landed near the hospital but doesn't appear they are targeting, just random. quote:@LibyanDictator : People of #Misrata hoping the coalition will strike the tanks at the entrance of the city, an estimated 11 still shelling Ajdabia quote:@iyad_elbaghdadi: Gaddafi troops heading from Brega towards Ajdabia were also bombed & destroyed by coalition troops
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Mar 23, 2011 21:07
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Yeah I give those tanks a couple hours before they're wiped out.
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Mar 23, 2011 21:12
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Spiky Ooze posted:Yeah I give those tanks a couple hours before they're wiped out. Target acquisition through Twitter? Another first for this war, if that's the case.
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Mar 23, 2011 21:15
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Stroh M.D. posted:Target acquisition through Twitter? Another first for this war, if that's the case. It would be pretty easy to do that from a nice cell phone, how interesting. I would hope the person doing your targeting is trustworthy! My phone has GPS down to the meter or something, a very nice camera and some crazy other abilities.
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Mar 23, 2011 21:19
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poo poo going down in Syriaquote:According to tweets coming for Syria right the Omari mosque in Daraa is allegedly under the attack. Tweeps are reporting that they are hearing screams and explosion through telephone lines from the mosque. The tweeps are saying that thousands are currently protesting in the streets of Daraa to save the mosque and there is a heavy gunfire along with sounds of explosions. The Mosque is asking for help by the tabkbeer “Allah Akbar”. http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot....n+chronicles%29
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Mar 23, 2011 21:38
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Tripoliquote:Muammar Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli has been hit again by air strikes, a day after he addressed supporters there, Arabiya TV reports. Ajdabiya quote:Tanks manned by pro-Gaddafi forces are now positioned at the eastern and western entrances to Ajdabiya, Al-Arabiya TV is reporting. Hopefully they will be former tanks pretty soon.
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Mar 23, 2011 21:49
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https://www.libyafeb17.com is back up. Apparently their files disappeared from the web directory after they made some changes to the homepage. e: Almanara Media's website has disappeared though. It went offline and was replaced by one of those placeholders a few days ago, but now even that's gone. Narmi fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 22:07
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Stroh M.D. posted:Kenya, Libya, Indonesia. If it ends with an a and you can't pronounce it, it's all Muslim. South Carolina
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Mar 23, 2011 22:11
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Brown Moses posted:Tripoli The man loves him some tanks. IISS estimated him to have about 2,000 of them in -09 - granted, about a thousand were aging T54/55s in storage. Seeing how the Libyan army only had 25,000 men, that's almost a tank for every 10 men. What with desertions and air bombardment it's unclear how many are left. But a disturbing amount, I'm sure.
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Mar 23, 2011 22:13
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Tanks and other vehicles captured by rebels in Zintan
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Mar 23, 2011 22:15
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This article is an excellent detailed summary of the recent situation in Misarata if you need to do any catching up. Briefly it explains how the air strikes broke the seige of the city, and saved it from the same fate as Zawiyah. Also: quote:Al-Arabiya news is reporting that it was Col Gaddafi's compound in Ajdabiya that was targeted in an airstrike tonight, not his compound in Tripoli as was earlier reported. There is no independent confirmation of the report.
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Mar 23, 2011 22:18
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Stroh M.D. posted:Target acquisition through Twitter? Another first for this war, if that's the case. They've got satellites, global hawks, special forces and whatever intelligence assets they deployed available. They probably already know about the tanks and are getting ready to send some planes out to blow them the gently caress up, assuming they haven't tied little old ladies to the sides. And though I agree that Obama's method of using force is against the intent of Constitution and the War Powers Act, those documents assumed that you had a congress that wasn't completely loving worthless. Boehner and McConnel and would have turned this into a 2 week long piece of political theater while the population of Benghazi was massacred. Kucinich is still awesome though and consistent at least. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Mar 23, 2011 |
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Mar 23, 2011 22:19
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Nuclearmonkee posted:They've got satellites, global hawks, special forces and whatever intelligence assets they deployed available. They probably already know about the tanks and are getting ready to send some planes out to blow them the gently caress up, assuming they haven't tied little old ladies to the sides. Sure, but I like the idea that what prompted them to search the area in the first place was a Twitter message. That would really give the "Twitter is what drove the rebellions" people something to boast about.
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Mar 23, 2011 22:20
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Brown Moses posted:Tanks and other vehicles captured by rebels in Zintan I'm wondering 1) how do the rebels take possession of an abandoned tank and 2) what's stopping the coalition from blowing them up once the rebels have gotten a hold of them?
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Mar 23, 2011 22:21
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Young Freud posted:I'm wondering 1) how do the rebels take possession of an abandoned tank and 2) what's stopping the coalition from blowing them up once the rebels have gotten a hold of them? You climb in and drive it away. Tanks are actually easy to drive. And I'm sure there will be some blue on blue. If I was a rebel dude and had a captured tank, first loving thing I'd do is paint the entire thing to look like the old Libyan flag.
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Mar 23, 2011 22:23
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Young Freud posted:I'm wondering 1) how do the rebels take possession of an abandoned tank and 2) what's stopping the coalition from blowing them up once the rebels have gotten a hold of them? I expect the coalition are basing their strikes on intelligence rather than just blowing everything up with wheels and guns. We know they have been targeting tanks based on information from rebels on some occasions and i'm sure NATO would love for them to be a more effective force so they must want to work with tank ridin' rebels. Having said that if a pilot thinks a vehicle is shelling a town he will probably blow it up, even if that tank was just attacking a different tank which was actually shelling a town (before also being blown up).
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Mar 23, 2011 22:39
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Tripoliquote:Witnesses say a huge blast has hit a military base in the Tajura district 32km (20 miles) east of Tripoli. Libya's official Jana news agency also said Tajura had been targeted twice on Wednesday. Misarata quote:Air strikes hit positions of Libyan government forces in the rebel-held city of Misrata this evening, but government snipers firing from rooftops killed 16 people, a rebel spokesman has told Reuters.
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Mar 23, 2011 22:39
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Nonsense posted:Obama is going to raise a billion dollars by next year, he's going remain our Communist/Atheist/Islam President. Yes I know I was speaking more theoretically. As in there are, unlike the Roman Empire, actual checks on the president. Well there were checks on the Roman emperor too. So that is a bad example.
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