Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Baddog posted:

It seems to me that guys who stop in the middle of a firefight to do the whole formal prayer ritual, especially when they are getting their asses beat and are in imminent danger of being killed along with all their friends, might be some sort of religious fundamentalists.

Actually, there's a special very shortened prayer for when you are in the middle of battle, but I'm not sure why you think that they're stopping in the middle of a fight to pray to begin with. Do you have a source?

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:10

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# ? May 21, 2024 12:16

QuentinCompson: Mar 11, 2009

This line of discussion about religious fundamentalists is pretty weird in light of the fact that Egyptian Muslims were praying while being sprayed with industrial-strength fire hoses and being guarded by Christians and the like, but nobody was yakking about the scary fundamentalists then.

At least, not that I remember.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:10

Competition: Apr 3, 2006; by Fistgrrl

t3ch3 posted:

Just to be clear, I don't really like the idea of anything. I'm just trying to understand how this conflict can be ended with the least possible loss of life and I think that, at this point, the creation of a refugee state best serves that purpose. Whether the rebels like it or not, their struggle cannot exist without coalition air support, but it's also extremely unlikely that they'll ever take Tripoli without coalition ground support, and that battle would kill thousands.

What about the Rebel held towns in the West of the country?

There were uprisings in drat near every town (including in Tripoli) until Gaddaffi brutally put them down, it isn't going to be easy or clean but the Rebels have support in every town.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:15

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

t3ch3 posted:

Just to be clear, I don't really like the idea of anything.

Not even puppies? More to the point you're right that if the orders shifted and they refused to protect anything west of Ajdabiya they likely could not advance, but it would also leave Zitan and Misrata completely at the whim of Ghaddafi.

The East west divide is entirely arbitrary and doesn't even indicate the main areas of the uprising, which would ahve to include much of the West.

Why is what you're suggesting any different from drawing Europeans drawing lines on a map to divide up foreign countries for centuries without regard to what happens on the ground?

I understand you think the best option is now gone, but I don't see how what you're suggesting is in any way the best of what's left. Will the rebels stop attacking? They've given no signs of it. Will Ghaddafi? No reason to believe that either.

The only advantage is it gets you back to your preferred response, which is doing nothing militarily.

Edit// Unsurprisingly the Yemeni opposition told Saleh to go gently caress himself.
http://english.aljazeera.net//news/europe/2011/03/201132513041139452.html

farraday fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:17

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Anyways, somebody who's actually an expert (and by expert I mean the loving former head of a jihadist group in Libya) in this has analyzed the potential fundamental threat from the chaos in Libya and says

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/785 posted:

�Gaddafi has tried very hard to give the impression that the Libyan opposition is controlled by al-Qaeda. This ideas flies in the face of all the evidence. The opposition is a diverse coalition of Libyans from many tribal and political backgrounds. Just because some Islamists support the opposition against Gaddafi this does not make the opposition Islamist.

Read the whole thing.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:19

Total Meatlove: Jan 28, 2007; Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

To split Libya in two would be to leave those rebels in Tripoli and to the west to gruesome and horrible deaths at the hands of Gaddafi, and as soon as you did it the moral and legal imperative to stop a 'cleansing' of that scale and magnitude would mean the UNSC would intervene again anyway.

Ground forces can be used by the coalition, there's just a reluctance not to use them now. Funding the rebels so that they can become more organised and training them in tactics will do more at the moment in terms of legitimacy and diplomacy.

Gaddafi's dead (80% sure) or in the Hague (20) by June

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:19

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

A divided Libya is a really bad thing idea for several reasons. Notwithstanding the fact that if Gaddafi is left in power, he'll continue to harass the east, if not with his army then with terrorist attacks. Also take this into account:

code:

No.	City		Population (2006)
1	Tripoli		1,228,187
2	Benghazi	670,797
3	Misurata	507,069
4	Az Zawiyah	318,726

If the east decides to accept refugees, it'll be almost the entire western half that rushes towards the new "Free Libya"...and 3 of the top 4 largest cities are in the west and are anti-Gaddafi. There's also a bunch of smaller cities that openly supported the opposition to Gaddafi's rule which means even more people will be streaming east. Those who can't make it will likely face an even more brutal regime, along with a lower standard of living if money stops flowing to Tripoli and instead goes to Benghazi (most of Libya's oil is in the east if I remember correctly).

Basically, spitting Libya in two would likely create something like a North/South Korea, so hopefully nobody in charge is too keen on the idea.

e: Also I think Gaddafi deliberately kept the eastern half of Libya underdeveloped, and while they seem to have been doing fine in these past few weeks, I doubt they have the infrastructure in place to build a new country.

e2: I'm half right about the oil:

source

So it really depends where you divide the country, but right now Gaddafi's side controls about half of the oilfields in Libya. That said I doubt Gaddafi's Libya will win as many oil contracts as Free Libya would, so Tripoli would still see a fall in foreign investment.

Narmi fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:20

BetterWeirdthanDead: Mar 7, 2006; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Cartouche posted:

Ah, the good old days. When we had folks like Patton kicking rear end.

The rebels should take a page from Patton and put luxury seats in their jeeps.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:26

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

farraday posted:

Not even puppies? More to the point you're right that if the orders shifted and they refused to protect anything west of Ajdabiya they likely could not advance, but it would also leave Zitan and Misrata completely at the whim of Ghaddafi.

The East west divide is entirely arbitrary and doesn't even indicate the main areas of the uprising, which would ahve to include much of the West.

Why is what you're suggesting any different from drawing Europeans drawing lines on a map to divide up foreign countries for centuries without regard to what happens on the ground?

It's not any different and my opinion is entirely based on a hunch that a few thousand fewer people might die if that were done than the inevitably bloody push toward Tripoli with coalition ground support. I fully admit that I have no reason to believe this beyond an uninformed guess from a white American armchair general type and am really glad that I'm nowhere near being in a position to decide or be affected by this decision.

I'll concede that my kneejerk is toward less use of force where it can happen and anyway this is a silly argument to have since events are going to play out as they will whatever theories we propose here. I'll gladly agree to be proven wrong on an internet message board if fewer people die.

edit: also, i actually do dislike dogs and, by extension puppies. sorry.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:28

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Museveni, the president of Uganda, wrote an article about Gaddafi. It's, um, unique.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/24/the_qaddafi_I_know

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:37

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

t3ch3 posted:

It's not any different and my opinion is entirely based on a hunch that a few thousand fewer people might die if that were done than the inevitably bloody push toward Tripoli with coalition ground support. I fully admit that I have no reason to believe this beyond an uninformed guess from a white American armchair general type and am really glad that I'm nowhere near being in a position to decide or be affected by this decision.

I'll concede that my kneejerk is toward less use of force where it can happen and anyway this is a silly argument to have since events are going to play out as they will whatever theories we propose here. I'll gladly agree to be proven wrong on an internet message board if fewer people die.

edit: also, i actually do dislike dogs and, by extension puppies. sorry.

You monster! Also, I disagree with your thoughts on the proper response to this problem. I think my biggest problem with what you're suggesting is it seems as naively optimistic as thinking a conquest of Tripoli by outside rebel forces wouldn't be bloody. I'm not sure how you recognize the dangers in one course while ignoring, or minimizing to a large degree, the dangers in the other.

In any case, twitter reports of variable reliability. Believe at your own risk.

quote:

Tripolitanian: CONFIRMED: #Libya Gov searches morgues around #Tripoli to present to journalists as civilian deaths from #UN
(confirmation seems to be Pentagon sources to Nic Robertson at CNN)

Tripolitanian: ALSO CONFIRMED: Many top #Army officers are trying to defect to opposition but are being threatened + kept hostage by #Gaddafi
(Shrug)

Tripolitanian: Unconfirmed - #Gaddafi hiding in desert bunker, you know what that means right? his days r numbered to the summer, hopefully the bunker=oven

I think the best part of twitter isn't necessarily the rumors, but the way you watch them bounce around between accounts you know news organizations are using as sources, even if they try and disguise the nature of the source.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:38

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

farraday posted:

You monster! Also, I disagree with your thoughts on the proper response to this problem. I think my biggest problem with what you're suggesting is it seems as naively optimistic as thinking a conquest of Tripoli by outside rebel forces wouldn't be bloody. I'm not sure how you recognize the dangers in one course while ignoring, or minimizing to a large degree, the dangers in the other.

Please believe me, I was doing nothing of the sort. That's why I described a partition as the "least bad" option, in my opinion. I don't think it's possible to be optimistic of the result in Libya, unless you're being seriously deluded or disingenuous.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:40

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

t3ch3 posted:

Please believe me, I was doing nothing of the sort. That's why I described a partition as the "least bad" option, in my opinion. I don't think it's possible to be optimistic of the result in Libya, unless you're being seriously deluded or disingenuous.

Fair enough, although I would weigh the chances differently I can see why a partition could appear attractive, especially from the perspective of limiting western involvement.

In any case as the opposition in Yemen gets set to have their own "day of departure" it is time for sunrise in Yemen and Fridays have been explosive. Syria is also expecting serious disturbances today, which will test the willingness of the ruling Baath party under hereditary president Bashar al-Assad to use violence.

In Libya, aid has starting flowing into Benghazi, including aid workers. There are also unconfirmed reports that the clearing of Misrata's port has allowed rebels to sneak support into the city.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 03:57

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Apologies for a double post but there's been some news.

First, apparently the internet has been cut in parts of Syria. News from today could be sporadic if the regime is trying to cut online links.

Second, word that Khaddafi troops around Ajdabiya attempted to call a ceasefire and withdrawal with the rebels. The discussion fell apart over the issue of tanks. The regime wanted to take them with, the rebels said "haha no".

A sign, perhaps, of the straits Khaddafi's troops around Ajdabiya are in, although not enough to make them surrender outright.

Most recently are unconfirmed reports that the rebels have pushed forward into Ajdabiya itself. Of course you can take this with as much salt as you can stand, especially if you're still fearing radiation.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 06:19

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

farraday posted:

Second, word that Khaddafi troops around Ajdabiya attempted to call a ceasefire and withdrawal with the rebels. The discussion fell apart over the issue of tanks. The regime wanted to take them with, the rebels said "haha no".

Agreeing to a ceasefire would be a very stupid thing for the rebels to do, if their aim is to depose Khadaffi.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 06:35

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

IRQ posted:

Agreeing to a ceasefire would be a very stupid thing for the rebels to do, if their aim is to depose Khadaffi.

It would have been a local ceasefire, not a country wide one as I understand. That wouldn't stop fighting elsewhere and would probably resume fighting in the next city along the coast.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 06:37

Deep Hurting: Jan 19, 2006

THE HORSES rear end posted:

The first two were bullshit, the last one was true.

No, the true reason (and objective) was "Funneling cash to war profiteers."

# ? Mar 25, 2011 06:57

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

#syria on Twitter is relatively quiet so far, seems to be a mix between people rooting for a big blowup who mostly seem to be out of the country (i.e. "you must stand up for your rights" or whatever), and people in-country who seem cautiously excited about lifting emergency law.

I guess we'll see as Friday continues though.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 08:46

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I've got some friends studying in Aleppo and they haven't seen any protests so far, but that could change today.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 08:55

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

Competition posted:

I was refuting those who commented upon an individual incident in Syria and started to invent a civil/proxy war by mentioning how in drat near every measurable way Syria is one of the least divided Arab states and therefore one of the least likely to fall into a full fledged civil war

OK, but you were saying that civil war was unlikely because larger religious and ethnic demographic divides were required. I pointed out that civil wars also happen based on ideological and/or economic divides.
What the people you responded to were also mentioning, is Syria's location. It's wedged between Turkey, Iraq, Israel, Joran, Israel and Lebanon, all of which might have an interest in how it develops. A full out war between those countries isn't likely though, I'll agree with that, but if it comes to civil war, there might be some foreign involvement.

Competition posted:

(which even the ongoing Libya crisis hasn't been described as)

Yes it has been described as exactly that. In fact, now that foreign countries have become involved, it might even be said to have progressed beyond a civil war.

Competition posted:

but that it is one of the least likely to fall into this Tom Clancy fantasy

Fair enough, but you were over-stating your evidence.

Competition posted:

1: There is no evidence and 2: If anything there should have been more troops deployed in the historically more rebellious part of the nation that also happens to be on the border with a nation that has just undergone a massive revolution.

I seem to remember that the best units were kept in the western part of the country, because that's where the capital and most of the large cities are, and because Gaddafi cared more about the western part. Some of the largest uprisings were in Az Zawiyah and Misurata.

Vir fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:10

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live Blogs March 25th
LibyaFeb17.com
AJE
BBC
Guardian

Twitter

cioxx posted:

Here's a curated list of Twitter personalities I'm working on. Some of them from Brown Moses suggestions throughout the thread.
http://twitter.com/revolister/libya

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:26

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

It's Friday, so that means the usual post Friday prayers protests across the Middle East and Arab world, so expect to see lots of innocent protesters being murdered in the streets by government forces.

Here's a round up of the last 12 hours:
Yemen

quote:

Guardian While things look quiet in Libya today so far, Yemen is bracing itself for big protests. Witnesses say Yemeni forces are trying to prevent anti-government protesters from reaching the capital, Sana'a, for a demonstration to demand that President Ali Abdullah Saleh step down after three decades. Protesters hope the "day of departure" rally - modelled on Egypt - will bring a million people out. Witnesses tell AP that troops are manning checkpoints trying to identify protesters to bar them from the capital. Security forces, however, are allowing pro-Saleh demonstrators to enter the capital in buses.

quote:

BBC Awadh from Mukalla, Yemen, writes: "The government has pulled all the security personnel from the street in Mukalla, so everybody is worried, not knowing what is being planned."

quote:

BBC There are reports from Yemen that security forces are trying to prevent tens of thousands of anti-government protesters from gathering in the capital Sanaa after Friday prayers. We'll bring you more on this story as it develops.

NFZ and NATO

quote:

Guardian The US, Britain, France and Turkey agreed to put the three-pronged offensive � a no-fly zone, an arms embargo, and air strikes � under a Nato command umbrella, in a climbdown by France that accommodates strong Turkish complaints about the scope and control of the campaign.

The deal appeared to end days of infighting among western allies, but needed to be blessed by all 28 Nato member states. At the end of a four-day meeting of Nato ambassadors in Brussels, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the secretary general, said Nato had agreed to take command of the no-fly zone from the Americans. Disputes have raged at Nato HQ every day this week. Rasmussen contradicted leading western officials by announcing that Nato's authority was limited to commanding the no-fly zone, but he signalled there was more negotiation to come.

Under the scheme agreed, the transfer to Nato will take place by the latest in London on Tuesday, when the parties to the coalition against Gaddafi gather in London for a special "contact group" conference. French sources said the Benghazi-based Libyan rebel leadership would be in London to attend. The conference will consist of two meetings: a war council made up of the main governments taking part in the military action, as well as a broader assembly including Arab and African countries devoted to Libya's future.

quote:

BBC The United Arab Emirates said last night it was sending six F-16 and six Mirage aircraft to join the coalition. Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said the participation "will commence in the coming days".

Ajdabiya

quote:

BBC UK Defence Secretary Liam Fox says British Tornado jets took part in armed reconnaissance missions over Libya last night. "The Tornado aircraft launched a number of guided Brimstone missiles at Libyan armoured vehicles which were threatening the civilian population of Ajdabiya," he said."

quote:

BBC The BBC's Kevin Connolly in Benghazi says the UK's use of Brimstone jets on Ajdabiya overnight - designed to destroy targets without causing collateral damage - was exactly the sort of attack the rebels have been demanding. "Ajdabiya is the first town they will have to take if they are ever to make the long march from Benghazi to Tripoli, and they have been making no impression on Col Gaddafi's better equipped and more professional forces," he says.

quote:

BBC BBC defence and security correspondent Nick Childs says the RAF Tornado strike on military vehicles near Ajdabiya last night was part of a significant operation involving several fighter jets and repeated attacks. "There have been a number of British strikes but they have tended to be long-range against significant major targets. This is the first of this type in which the Tornadoes have gone after forces on the ground."

quote:

BBC The BBC's Ben Brown near Ajdabiya says despite last night's strikes the city remains an active frontline, with shelling from pro-Gaddafi forces seen earlier today. The city is surrounded by regime troops, he says, with the population stuck in the middle said to be quickly running out of food, water and electricity.

quote:

Guardian More detail is emerging of overnight air strikes near Ajdabiya, where Gaddafi troops have proved surprisingly resilient. France's army chief of staff, Admiral Edouard Guillaud, said a plane destroyed an artillery battery. Guillaud also says French forces destroyed a military base, a munitions depot and maintenance facilities in Libya's interior.

The British Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, says British Tornado GR4 aircraft launched a number of guided missiles at Libyan armoured vehicles.

"The Tornado aircraft launched a number of guided Brimstone missiles at Libyan armoured vehicles which were threatening the civilian population of Ajdabiya. Brimstone is a high precision, low collateral damage weapon optimised against demanding and mobile targets," said Fox.

Tripoli

quote:

BBC At least three explosions hit Tripoli last night. The AFP news agency says one blast was heard in Tajoura, home to military bases. Regime troops also raked the skies of the capital with anti-aircraft fire, as they have been doing for the past few night.

quote:

BBC BBC foreign editor Jon Williams tweets: "BBC team in Tripoli report quietest night so far in #Libya capital as focus moves to Misurata&Ajdabiya."

quote:

BBC The BBC's World Affairs correspondent John Simpson in Tripoli says the capital saw a relatively quiet night, with coalition bombs landing on the outskirts. The feeling among officials, he says, is that things are not as bad as they might have been.

quote:

BBC Our correspondent says the details of who said what to whom in the coalition talks largely goes unnoticed by officials in Tripoli. "But what they do understand is that the organisation which is attacking them is divided in its approach, and that, inevitably, gives them a sense of hope. They have not been smaashed out of ground as they expected to be, and that gives them a feeling they might even survive this operation."

quote:

AJE Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, in Tripoli, says the lives of the Libyans are getting "harder by the day" as many petrol stations and shops are shut and many people stay at home because they fear airstrikes.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:37

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

Sweden expects that a request for JAS Gripen planes may come on Tuesday. There are enough planes, but if the NFZ lasts for a long time, Sweden could share the burden.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:37

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

quote:

AJE Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, in Tripoli, says the lives of the Libyans are getting "harder by the day" as many petrol stations and shops are shut and many people stay at home because they fear airstrikes.

Next tanker that gets interdicted needs to go to Misurata, just so they could go "Hey, look at all this petrol. There's more than we need. Hey, Tripoli, we'll give some to you if you abandon Qaddafi."

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:48

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I hope some pictures of that tanker they redirected appear, just to confirm it actually happened. I very much doubt it would have been allowed to reach Tripoli, but I'd just like to see it existed in the first place.

I'm not seeing much happening in Misrata today, apart from reports of food and aid shortages. Maybe they finally did get rid of the snipers and have control of the port.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:51

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Bahrain

quote:

Guardian Besides Yemen and Syria, activists plan to hold protests in Bahrain as well despite a ban on public gatherings. Reuters reports, however, that Wefaq, the mainstream Shia opposition group, has distanced itself from the demonstrations.

quote:
"Wefaq affirms the need to protect safety and lives and not to give the killers the opportunity to shed blood," it said on Thursday.

Nine demonstrations appear to be planned, across different parts of Bahrain, including one headed toward the airport and one that aims to "liberate" Salmaniya hospital. Security forces raided Salmaniya hospital in the crackdown, removing several tents set up by protesters in previous weeks. Doctors and human rights groups say strict security has hampered medical access and that four medical staff have been arrested.

quote:

BBC Bahrainian rights activist Nabeel Rajab told BBC's World Today that protesters there will be confronted by troops from across the Gulf region, after they agreed to send military help. "This is the most dangerous thing because we are being faced by machine guns firing from helicopters, tanks, and this is the frightening thing because we don't have any more hospitals."

quote:

BBC Mr Rajab said all the hospitals in Bahrain had been taken over by the military, so protesters cannot take injured people there."Day-by-day we discover more people are dying among those missing people," he said.

Yemen

quote:

Guardian As protesters gather in Yemen, the Wall Street Journal reports that President Saleh and General Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar, one of Yemen's most powerful military men but now on the side of the demonstrators, are hammering out a deal in which both men would resign within days.

quote:
Mr Saleh and Gen Ahmar were intent on preventing bloodshed and preserving stability, the people familiar with the negotiations said. Aides to both men said they understood that Mr. Saleh's continued rule is untenable. But the two men also agreed that his resignation can't happen until the details of a transitional governing council that would take his place.

Sounds like it'll be a big day across the Arab world, seems things are coming to a head in Syria, Yemen and Bahrain, so expect big protests, or big protests being broken up with violence.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 10:57

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Sounds like the situation in Ajdabiya is that the Gaddafi forces are pretty much cut off from reinforcements, and there communication will Tripoli has been cut, so they are pretty isolated, but still fighting. The rebels are relying on air strikes to finish off as many as possible, and they are still receiving reinforcements from Benghazi.

In Misrata they are saying 30 snipers were killed, and around 70 remain, who they plan to take care of today. They are also saying the local food stores have been hit, and are currently on fire, so the food situation is getting desperate.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:13

Snake: Mar 24, 2008

the protests in syria are in the city of Daraa, it started at around last week actually, and much like other countries, the way the government reacted to it was pretty bad.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/201132112130110767.html

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:14

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Misrata

quote:

BBC Mohammed in Misrata told the BBC that while it was quiet in the city last night the situation there remains dire, with no electricity and a lack of doctors and medical supplies.

quote:

BBC "Misrata is besieged now for 35 days," he said. "They don't allow food to come in, they cut the water, they cut everything. And they are killing people every day by tanks and by snipers. So really, we don't see the benefit of the Nato strikes."

quote:

@LibyanDictator Yesterday: #Misrata: 30 snipers captured or killed, and estimated 70 still in Tripoli street.

quote:

@LibyanDictator Yesterday: #Misrata: 1 martyr and 12 injured

Ajdabiya

quote:

BBC The BBC's Ben Brown near Ajdabiya says rebels have been pouring reinforcements into the area. "One commander said if there were more coalition air strikes they could take Ajdabiya today," he says, "but that may be wishful thinking".

quote:

BBC The BBC is in southern Italy, from where coalition jets are taking off for Libya missions. He says the UK has been keen to stress that the missiles it fired near Ajdabiya last night were low-collateral and high-precision. "These are still missiles that can cause civilian casualties, but the Ministry of Defence are making it clear are being very careful about what they are targetting."

quote:

@FromJoanne #Ajdabiya : Gaddafi Troops allegedly lost contact with #Tripoli &running out of Food+supplies

quote:

@BenBrown just outside #Ajdabiya: Ppl running out of food/water, rebels say they can take town today but need more airstrikes first

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:32

Ogive: Dec 22, 2002; by Lowtax

Live on AJE: Saleh just basically gave a giant stiffy to the protesters. And there's a whole hell of a lot of them.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Why do these dictators always do exactly the same thing? Huge protest gathering? Why not make an appearence on TV and piss them off even more!

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:41

Vir: Dec 14, 2007; Does it tickle when your Body Thetans flap their wings, eh Beatrice?

Next step is to send in attack camels, have your VP offend the protesters, and then leave office while blaming the Americans and Zionists.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:50

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Then go into a coma.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:51

Ogive: Dec 22, 2002; by Lowtax

And now they're reporting on cricket. gently caress's sakes!

E: since this has shown up about a hojillion times:
http://www.cnbc.com//id/42264878?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

And I hope this works -- NFSW libyan rap -- "Can't take our freedom".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NReDBYRZ7nY

"Go ahead and implement your plan,
at the end of the day, you are just a man."

Ogive fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 11:56

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Syria

quote:

BBC The BBC's Lina Sinjab is in Syria. She had been trying to reach the southern city of Deraa to report on the unrest there but was stopped by security forces. All the journalists with her had their details taken by police and were sent back to Damascus, she says. We'll bring you what we can from Syria as the situation there develops.

quote:

BBC Reuters says thousands of people are taking part in a funeral procession in Deraa for people killed in the unrest - they are calling for political freedom.

NFZ

quote:

@BBCBreaking‎ NATO official: planning for #noflyzone operation over #Libya assumes mission lasting 90 days but could be extended "if necessary"

quote:

BBC UK Foreign Secretary William Hague tells the BBC control of the no-fly zone enforcement should pass to Nato within days. "Bear in mind we only passed the UN resolution a week ago and started military operations very urgently on Saturday in order to save Benghazi from what was about to happen to it. So we have then had to put some of the arrangements of the command of this in place over this week, but that is being put together perfectly well."

Mr Hague says that "if the Gaddafi regime think the will of the international community is faltering they are in for quite a surprise".

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Mar 25, 2011

# ? Mar 25, 2011 12:10

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

NicRobertsonCNN has been posting about a trip he took today:

quote:

Govt officls taking journalists to Tajura in east Tripoli to farm they say hit by coaltion strike, they claim civilian casualties.
Driving through E. outskirts of Tripoli, drive past mil base, apparent bomb damage, still smoking.
See soldiers & weaps campng in field, mobile surface to air missile launcher hidden under under trees nearby
About 5 miles further, driving past second base, apparent comms site heavy bomb damage, lots of smoke still rising
On periphery also saw small radar installation close to seafront road, also destryd in apparent strike.
Arrive at farm just east of Tripoli, missile fragmnts scattr ground, shrapnels peppers the walls --farm buildings still standing
Farmer says missile landed about 8 pm last night, says no military installation nearby
Before we left, officials said there'd been civilian casualties. Farmer says 1 woman was lightly injured, she wasn't there when we arrived.
Missile fragmnts collected during our visit - a fin, a wing- appear consistent with missile of some description.
Missile gouged small hole at foot of palm tree in orchard, sprayed debris wrecking windows and doors of the farm buildings
Driving back through Tajura, security very tight at prayer time, govt gunmen manning checkpoints at intersections

# ? Mar 25, 2011 14:51

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Another report on the same trip from the Guardian:

quote:

The Guardian's Ian Black has been on the line from Tripoli, filling me in a trip organised by the Libyan authorities to emphasise - not very convincingly - the extent of civilian casualties from the air strikes. This is what he told me.

quote:
Libyan government minders took a bus load of journalists to Tajura east of Tripli today where we saw a house in a rural area with a big garden. There was apparent damage caused by a missile which had landed in the garden. There were fragments of a US air-to-surface missile. A window had been broken as some furniture. According to the father, his 18-year-old daughter was injured and taken to hospital. What was difficult to understand was the link between the rocket fragments and the damage, there were also bullet holes on the wall. The general feeling was that something certainly had happened and it was an effort to underline how civilians have been victims of "colonial aggression". Surprisingly, however, we have not been taken to any hospitals. I don't doubt there have been some civilians casualties with thousands of missiles fired, but there has been no evidence of deaths to civilians on a large scale. We spent a good hour at the house but we sped by a building at a military installation that had been flattened by a missile and a radar installation on a sand dune that was completely destroyed, now a charred hulk. But there was not a word on that.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 15:01

Sten Freak: Sep 10, 2008; Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.; College Slice

Even with good intelligence, sophisticated targeting and guidance systems and thorough planning civilians will be injured and die from these air strikes. Mistakes are made, ordnance doesn't perform as expected and people simply can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course the government wants reporters to write about them but unfortunately they are as much of a part of war as anything else.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 15:28

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's a bit in this article about the mysteries of Libyan funerals:

quote:

MORE than 30 coffins were carried to the Martyrs Cemetery on Thursday, escorted by hundreds of flag-waving supporters of Muammar Gaddafi chanting condemnation of what the state media said were civilian casualties of allied air strikes.

But after two hours of noisy cheers - and very little grief - for what state television called ''victims of the crusader-colonialist aggression'', most of the coffins were taken away. Only about a dozen burials took place, and two Western photographers said some smelt of corpses dead for days. There was no way to know who or what was in the others, or what was going through the minds of those who turned up to cheer.

Colonel Gaddafi's Libya is a country where even a coffin is sometimes a question mark. Four decades of ruthless penalties for dissent - and vast rewards for loyalty - long ago transformed public life into an elaborate theatre, with a heavy curtain between public expression and private opinion. And that curtain has made the conflict a shadowy affair in which it is often hard to tell who is playing what role - from the colonel's closest associates to the flag-waving crowds in the street.

At rallies in the city's central Green Square and the colonel's compound, Western journalists have run into at least three Libyans who had previously attended protests or made anonymous statements against the Gaddafi government.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 15:35

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# ? May 21, 2024 12:16

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

If you're fluent in French, here's the official website for Operation Harmattan (the french part of Odyssey Dawn).
The Libyan Galeb was actually destroyed with an ASM right after it landed.

# ? Mar 25, 2011 15:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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