Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

AJE is reporting 120 rockets were fired into Misarata today, on top of the 200 that were fired into Misarata yesterday.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 10:23

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 00:38

Warthog: Mar 8, 2004; Ferkelwämser extraordinaire

MothraAttack posted:

Did anyone else see the state TV video of Gaddafi fist-pumping in an SUV around Tripoli? A dude appears to faceplant off a moving vehicle at the end.

Quick! We need some propaganda video to show on tv, stat!

Uhhh, all we have left is the one from last year where Bouba falls off and consequently gets run over by G's truc...

I SAID WE NEED A VIDEO, CUT IT AND AIR IT!!!

# ? Apr 15, 2011 10:47

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Speaking of videos, a couple from Misarata via the Guardian:

quote:

The BBC has a video report from a hospital in Misrata. It shows a six-year-old girl who had 30 pieces of shrapnel removed from her body after her home was bombed. Doctors say if any more patients arrive they will have to be treated on the floor.

quote:

New video footage has emerged that appears to show the latest fighting in the port city of Misrata. This film uploaded to YouTube today purports to show clashes on Tripoli street.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 11:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Couple of articles worth a read:

quote:

The Economist has an interesting piece on how the Libyan rebels in Benghazi are going about trying to set up a functioning state.

quote:
The rebels have virtually no institutions to hold their eastern zone together. But the vacuum is steadily being filled. Courts have started to function again. The rebels have even set up an embryonic intelligence service. The nights have become quieter since the police, back in action, started to question people wielding unlicensed weapons. After dusk volunteers man checkpoints inside Benghazi and outside its main hotels. Businessmen say that mobile telephones and the internet will be reconnected to the outside world within a week or two. Despite the no-fly zone, aircraft and even military helicopters fly in and out of Benghazi's rebel-held airport.

quote:

More on the situation in the besieged city of Misurata by Amnesty International�s crisis researcher Donatella Rovera: In Misurata, a city under siege.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 13:26

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Guardian Libya Summary for today:

quote:

� Eight people have been killed in the western city of Misrata, after government forces bombarded the besieged city with Grad rockets again, a doctor at a local hospital told al-Jazeera. One person was reported killed in Ajdabiya, in the east of the country, when Gaddafi's forces opened fire on opposition soldiers on the western edge of the city.

� Barack Obama signalled the return of America to the forefront of the international effort in Libya. In a joint article written with David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy, the three leaders commit their countries to pursue military action until Muammar Gaddafi has been removed.

� Nato launched three new air strikes in and around Tripoli, striking a missile battery and two other targets, according to al-Jazeera.

� Gerard Longuet, the French defence minister, suggested that a new UN security council resolution might be needed to help curb the violence in Libya. He expected countries such as Russia and China would "drag their feet" over any new resolution, however.

� Al-Qaida's deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahri has instructed Muslims in north Africa to rise up and fight Nato forces in Libya. At the same time, he said they should fight against Gaddafi's "mercenaries". Gaddafi had previously claimed the uprising against him was driven by al-Qaida.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 14:13

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

quote:

Two small boats carrying five Libyan army officers and 13 other people from Libya arrived in a southern Tunisian port on Friday, Tunisia's state TAP news agency reported:

quote:
It did not give any details on the identities or ranks of the officers, or where in neighbouring Libya the vessels came from. Two small boats coming from Libya docked Friday morning at El Ketf port in the province of Ben Guerdane carrying 18 Libyans, including five army officers.

It'll be interesting to see what ranks they are.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 16:07

pwnyXpress: Mar 28, 2007

This video is quite popular today. Allegedly shows rebel mistreatment of Gaddafi soldiers that surrendered (hanging, beheading, mutilation):

:nms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkcMgPsB3Gs&skipcontrinter=1 :nws:

# ? Apr 15, 2011 16:36

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

pwnyXpress posted:

This video is quite popular today. Allegedly shows rebel mistreatment of Gaddafi soldiers that surrendered (hanging, beheading, mutilation):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkcMgPsB3Gs&skipcontrinter=1

I remember a while ago a rebel 'leader' (for as far they exist apparently) called upon the rebel 'forces' not to take prisoners. Gaddafi troops were to either defect or die. I guess some are taking that just a bit too seriously.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 16:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

pwnyXpress posted:

This video is quite popular today. Allegedly shows rebel mistreatment of Gaddafi soldiers that surrendered (hanging, beheading, mutilation):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkcMgPsB3Gs&skipcontrinter=1

I've read that it's a couple of months old, back before the TNC existed and the rebels were organised, although I've not seen it confirmed.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 16:46

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I don't have trouble believing the video is real or that they would mistreat prisoners, but the upload history of that guy's youtube channel is making me doubt it.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 16:48

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

Man, that video's description is gold.
But yeah, I'd guess it's from the beginning of the uprising in Benghazi when after live ammunition was employed against protesters angry mobs attacked and torched institutions associated with the oppressive regime.
No idea what that building was exactly but they were obviously pretty angry at the people within, especially that one guy!

# ? Apr 15, 2011 21:44

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

What's that, Alan Kuperman? HRW says that Gaddafi is not massacring civilians?

http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-14/bostonglobe/29418371_1_rebel-stronghold-civilians-rebel-positions posted:

EVIDENCE IS now in that President Barack Obama grossly exaggerated the humanitarian threat to justify military action in Libya. The president claimed that intervention was necessary to prevent a �bloodbath�� in Benghazi, Libya�s second-largest city and last rebel stronghold.

But Human Rights Watch has released data on Misurata, the next-biggest city in Libya and scene of protracted fighting, revealing that Moammar Khadafy is not deliberately massacring civilians but rather narrowly targeting the armed rebels who fight against his government.

Hmm

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/10/libya-government-attacks-misrata-kill-civilians posted:

Attacks by Libyan government forces in the western city of Misrata have endangered civilians and targeted a medical clinic in violation of international law, Human Rights Watch said today.
...
"We've heard disturbing accounts of shelling and shooting at a clinic and in populated areas, killing civilians where no battle was raging."

According to Dr. Muhammad el-Fortia, who works at Misrata Hospital, medical facilities have recorded 257 people killed and 949 wounded and hospitalized since February 19, 2011. The wounded include 22 women and eight children, he said.

A second doctor, interviewed separately, said that hospitals in the city had documented about 250 dead over the past month, most of them civilians. He believed the actual number was higher because many people could not reach medical facilities.
...

Hazma Muhammad Kariat, 32, told Human Rights Watch that on March 19 he attended a protest against the presence of government tanks and soldiers in Misrata. A crowd of civilians gathered in the city center chanting, "We don't want Muammar!" a reference to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. Kariat said he watched government tanks advance towards the protesters on Tripoli Street. Then the tanks and soldiers opened fire.

"It was a slaughterhouse," he said. "I was hit by a sniper in the back, and there were five other injured people in the ambulance with me." Kariat was paralyzed from the waist down.

And from today

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/world/africa/16libya.html?_r=1&hp posted:

MISURATA, Libya � Military forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, who have surrounded this city and vowed to crush its anti-Qaddafi rebellion, have been firing into residential neighborhoods with heavy weapons, including cluster bombs that have been banned by much of the world and ground-to-ground rockets, according to the accounts of witnesses and survivors and physical evidence on the ground.

Such �indiscriminate� weapons, which strike large areas with a dense succession of high-explosive munitions, by their nature cannot be fired precisely, and when fired into populated areas place civilians at grave risk.

The use of such weapons could add urgency to the arguments by Britain and France that NATO needs to step up air attacks on the Qaddafi forces, to better fulfill the United Nations mandate to protect civilians. And it could place pressure on the United States, which pulled back air power from the war when it ceded control of the campaign to NATO earlier this month.

When asked about the weaponry at a news conference in Berlin, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said she was �not aware� of the specific use of cluster munitions in Misurata, but said, �I�m not surprised by anything that Colonel Qadaffi and his forces do.�

She added: �That is worrying information. And it is one of the reasons the fight in Misurata is so difficult, because it�s at close quarters, it�s in amongst urban areas and it poses a lot of challenges to both NATO and to the opposition.�

The cluster munitions were visible in use late Thursday night, in the form of what appeared to be 120-millimeter mortar rounds that burst in the air over the city, scattering high-explosive bomblets below.

Remnants of expended shells, examined and photographed by The New York Times, show the rounds to be MAT-120 cargo mortar projectiles, each of which carries and distributes 21 smaller submunitions designed both to kill people and penetrate light armor.

Components from the 120-millimeter rounds, according to their markings, were manufactured in Spain in 2007 � one year before Spain signed the international Convention on Cluster Munitions and pledged to destroy its stocks. Libya is not a signatory to the convention, and neither is the United States, which used the weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan and, in 2009, Yemen. The Spanish Defense Ministry had no immediate comment.

Human Rights Watch, the New York based advocacy group, verified the use of the cluster munitions as well, and swiftly called on the Qaddafi government to stop using them.

�It�s unconscionable that Libya is using these indiscriminate weapons, especially in civilian populated areas,� said Steve Goose, director of the organization�s arms division. �Cluster munitions are inaccurate and unreliable weapons that by their very nature pose unacceptable dangers to civilians.�

The cluster munitions are not the only indiscriminate heavy weapon system to imperil the city�s neighborhoods. An examination of the area of an intensive rocket barrage on Thursday near the city�s port showed that the Qasr Ahmed residential district was struck by multiple rockets, known as GRADs, which landed in a dense pattern on houses and streets. One rocket shattered the wall beside a mosque.

The GRAD rockets, an area weapons system designed in the Soviet Union to blanket a battlefield with multiple explosions, were readily indentified by their twisted fragments and remains, some of which bore markings indicating they had been manufactured during the cold war. They are fired from truck-mounted launchers that hold 40 rocket tubes, so that each truck is, essentially, a mobile system that can launch its own barrage 12 miles or more.

One of the GRAD rockets alone killed eight civilians, according to survivors and witnesses, who then showed two journalists eight hastily dug graves in a public park nearby, where relatives prayed over the dead. The bodies had been interred beside two children�s swing sets. Each grave was dated: April 14, 2011.

Taken together, the attacks of Thursday and the evidence they left behind, point to a campaign by Colonel Qaddafi�s forces against Misurata that relies in part on weapons designed to endanger the lives of the civilians trapped within. They also support the rebels� frequent contentions that in the lopsided fight for Libya, Colonel Qaddafi�s forces have targeted civilians or at a minimum, taken few measures to avoid endangering them.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 21:54

MothraAttack: Apr 28, 2008

Xandu posted:

What's that, Alan Kuperman?

Kuperman is the worst. His whole shtick is that the majority of genocides and ethnic cleansings since WWII were mostly caused by rebel groups who were willing to sacrifice their own in a gamble for Western intervention (this is his take on the Rwandan genocide, AFAIK). He even compares it to insurance practices.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 23:17

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

He calls him Khadafy? :what:

That has to be the most inaccurate pronunciation ever.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 23:45

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Ham posted:

He calls him Khadafy?

That has to be the most inaccurate pronunciation ever.

It's the Boston Globe's decision, but yeah.

# ? Apr 15, 2011 23:48

Sri.Theo: Apr 16, 2008

From the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13102164

quote:

Glancing around the hospital ward full of broken bodies, a weary Libyan surgeon gave his explanation of the conflict in the besieged city of Misrata.

"Gaddafi is hunting his own people," said Ramadan Atewah, a volunteer on leave from his hospital post in Britain. "He's trying to concentrate the shelling where there are groups of people."

In the overflowing wards of the main hospital that is how it looks.

The surgeon spent more than a week fighting to save the life of a toddler, injured with her sister. Their family was targeted as they tried to flee.

After the elder sister died, he promised the parents he would do everything possible to save their remaining daughter. His eyes filled with tears as he described how he lost that battle.

"We tried by every means I learnt in the past 20 years to save her life," he said.

"At one minute I was happy because I thought I am saving her. We fight together for the life for more than seven days, and sadly she left me alone."
Lacerated by shrapnel

During our visit, the intensive care unit was treating patients with multiple shrapnel injuries, including another young girl, a six-year-old called Arwa. She, like many others, was hit inside her own home. Her tiny body was punctured by 30 pieces of shrapnel.

Arwa moaned in pain as a surgeon examined her lacerated abdomen and lifted the dressing from a deep scar running right across her neck. Though her injuries are horrific, she is expected to make a full recovery.

But so many wounds on such a tiny body were a distressing sight - even for her surgeon.

"It's very hard," said Ahmed Radwan, a volunteer from Egypt. "I have a daughter her age, or a bit younger. Someone has to help, this is not humanitarian at all, what's happening here."

Asked if he felt let down by the international community, his reply was swift: "Definitely. People here have been left alone and no-one is helping, no-one is caring."

That is a common sentiment in Misrata, inside and outside the hospital.

Doctors told us most of those they see - like Arwa - have been wounded by heavy weapons including rockets and shells.

And they say 80% of those killed or injured in the city are civilians. One of the latest targets for Colonel Gaddafi's forces was a queue of people waiting for bread.

Hospital staff say 23 civilians were killed in that attack on Thursday morning when about 80 grad missiles hit a neighbourhood bordering Misrata's port. It was the most ferocious attack yet on the port area.

Five of the dead were Egyptians, who had been waiting for weeks for a ferry coming to evacuate migrant workers. The vessel arrived just a few hours after they were killed.
Dwindling supplies

The hospital is struggling to keep pace with the attacks. The emergency ward is a tent in the car park. Patients are rushed in and out to make way for new arrivals. Lights go on and off without warning, plunging surgeons into darkness.

Staff have asked us not to name the facility for fear of attack. They have already had to move hospital once.

Doctors say they are running short of supplies, beds and staff to treat the continuing flow of wounded.

"If anyone else arrives now, they'll have to be treated on the floor," said Dr Khalid Abufalgha, a member of Misrata's crisis committee.

"I have enough drugs for the moment but if things continue like this I can sustain things for only another two weeks to one month."

With so many urgent cases, he cannot help patients with chronic conditions.

"Cancer patients are dying," he said. "It's happening. There's no chemotherapy available."

And there are growing concerns about the security of the port. Medical supplies are coming ashore here but the heavy shelling has halted some ships, and raised fears that Col Gaddafi wants to cut this last link to the outside world.
Debris of war

Downtown we saw tell-tale signs of the fight for the city - empty streets, shelled homes and a burnt-out armoured personnel carrier.

We were told that Col Gaddafi's forces were dug in on two sides, no more than a kilometre away. One location was near a mosque. Dense black smoke filled the horizon nearby. The rebels thought, or hoped, that was the result of a Nato air strike.

At the corner of battle-scarred Benghazi Street we were introduced to a 16-year-old football fan called Youssef, who now spends his time gathering intelligence for the rebels. Older men identified him - with pride - as "the first one to volunteer for the frontline".

Before the revolution, the teenager's passions were his favourite teams - Barcelona and Manchester United.

Youssef, fresh-faced and polite, was matter-of-fact about his high-risk missions. "I go to scout at the front, and come back to give the guys information," he told me. "I'm not afraid, I go any time I want."

If this slight 16-year old can apparently pinpoint the location of the regime's fighters, why cannot Nato? Many locals insist the alliance knows perfectly well where they are, but has been reluctant to act robustly.

"We don't want to sound ungrateful but Nato really should finish the job, otherwise Gaddafi will have no mercy," said Mohammed Ali, a member of the rebel council and chairman of an investment company.

"After Nato took over, things really slumped."

The rebel leadership insists that Nato has been given up-to-date information on the whereabouts of Col Gaddafi's fighters.

"We've been sending photos and co-ordinates of their locations and information about their movements but they regard that as advisory," said Mr Ali.

Nato says Misrata is its "top priority" but, among civilians and rebels alike in this besieged city, there is a common question - how much longer will we have to wait?

"It really is a matter of life and death," said Mr Ali. "People have so much to fear. The massacre that was prevented in Benghazi could easily happen here."

I'm glad reporters are finally getting inside Misrata. And HRW has some pictures of the weapons at http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/15/libya-cluster-munitions-strike-misrata

# ? Apr 16, 2011 09:40

CeeJee: Dec 4, 2001; Oven Wrangler

This should go down well for the conspiracy minded:

http://i51.tinypic.com/24lob5v.jpg

# ? Apr 16, 2011 11:11

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

CeeJee posted:

This should go down well for the conspiracy minded:

http://i51.tinypic.com/24lob5v.jpg

Why's that? Looks like a standard 81mm illumination round.

Edit: Further googling leads me to believe it is a British 81mm illumination round of French manufacture.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Apr 16, 2011

# ? Apr 16, 2011 11:41

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Why's that? Looks like a standard 81mm illumination round.

Edit: Further googling leads me to believe it is a British 81mm illumination round of French manufacture.

Star of David looking symbol as the manufacturing company's logo.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 12:11

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Young Freud posted:

Star of David looking symbol as the manufacturing company's logo.

I think that's a symbol to represent that it is a parachute illumination round.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 12:12

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Rent-A-Cop posted:

I think that's a symbol to represent that it is a parachute illumination round.

Oh, I can see it now, with the crescent shape as the parachute and the star as a light.

But, just say, the star resembles the six-pointed Star of David (although it doesn't have the negative space the David shield has), and that can spawn some conspiracy theories. Remember that the proposed Iraq flag in 2004 was linked to Israel because it had a lot of blue and white in it.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 12:24

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

National Democratic Party (Egypt's ruling party for over 33 years) has just been dissolved by law!

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/2011416125051889315.html posted:

An Egyptian court has dissolved the former ruling National Democratic Party (NDP) and ordered its funds and property to be handed over to the government.

The Higher Administrative Court issued the order on Saturday, meeting one of the key demands of the protest movement that ousted former president Hosni Mubarak in February.

"The administrative court issued a ruling to dissolve the NDP and seize its money, and its headquarters and buildings will be handed to the government," a judicial source said.

Lawyers had raised a suit demanding the party's dissolution, accusing it of corruption.

The NDP dominated Egyptian politics since it was set up by Mubarak's predecessor, Anwar el-Sadat, in 1978.

Much of its senior leadership is now behind bars on suspicion of embezzlement.

Very interesting, this basically leaves the Muslim Brotherhood as the most powerful and organized voting force on the scene right now. NDP officials have said they will appeal the ruling.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 15:29

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Ham posted:

National Democratic Party (Egypt's ruling party for over 33 years) has just been dissolved by law!

Very interesting, this basically leaves the Muslim Brotherhood as the most powerful and organized voting force on the scene right now. NDP officials have said they will appeal the ruling.

So much for democracy. Regardless of how bad the NDP may have been, it should have been up to the population of Egypt to decide via election votes if the party was worth keeping around or not.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 17:03

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Jut posted:

So much for democracy. Regardless of how bad the NDP may have been, it should have been up to the population of Egypt to decide via election votes if the party was worth keeping around or not.

You're entering into the realm of self parody.

After 40 years of single party rule pretending there is a split between the dictatorial government and the party it uses as a means for power is absurd.

farraday fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 16, 2011

# ? Apr 16, 2011 17:09

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Jut posted:

So much for democracy. Regardless of how bad the NDP may have been, it should have been up to the population of Egypt to decide via election votes if the party was worth keeping around or not.

Here's excerpts from the DA's official report on the case:

quote:

It got dissolved for "....the NDP has ignored and stepped away from the principles and values behind it's founding; which resulted in social dysfunction, political corruption and the abuse and elimination of rights and freedoms provided by the Egyptian constitution which pushed the Egyptian people into revolting in the 25th of January Revolution.

The report also detailed how the NDP made sure to seize all power centres for itself and how it worked to weaken other political movements or parties opposed to it, by restricting freedom of opinion and arresting those with different political views as well as fueling classism issues between the Egyptian people.

The report also pointed out that the party gave all important positions or titles in government to friends or family of party businessmen so that it could control all facets of society, as seen by the fact that many of the party's leaders held more than one or two leadership positions themselves, be it in the executive branch or the legislative one, which goes against the principle of equal oppurtunities between the people of Egypt, amidst favoritism and the use of bribes in hiring officials.

The report also confirmed that the NDP employed repression and fraud in election results, thus wasting away the will of the people and their right to free and fair elections, pointing out that the most pronounced example of this was what happened in the last elections for the people's assembly (parliament) which led to an illegitimate and weak assembly, leading to it's eventual dissolvement after Egyptians went to the streets on Jan. 25, 2011 and the days that that followed.

Finally, the report noted that the party's practices as outlined in this report have lost it the legally outlined conditions necessary for it's continued existence which makes it's dissolvement a must."

# ? Apr 16, 2011 17:30

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

Huh. New avatar, Ham?

This is good news. I was very concerned that the NDP might get voted back into office. The devil you know, after all. It's not uncommon, as I seem to recall from both Germany post WWII and Iraq: after a period like that, they're the only people who know how to run things.

On the other hand, well, you have to watch out for the Neo-NDP reforming, and you still have the Muslim Brotherhood to watch out for. I hope that you guys are forming a strong central party of your own.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 21:41

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Picture from Misrata.

edit:

and accompanying NYT article

Xandu fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 16, 2011

# ? Apr 16, 2011 21:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

That's a great article, it's amazing the rebels have held onto Misarata for as long as they have.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 22:00

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

farraday posted:

You're entering into the realm of self parody.

After 40 years of single party rule pretending there is a split between the dictatorial government and the party it uses as a means for power is absurd.

I never said there was a split, and don't pretend to imagine there is, but banning political parties goes against the spirit of democracy. They, like anyone else should have been given the right to stand for election and let the people decide, not the courts. Banning them is little different to how the MB were banned under Mubarak's rule. Anyway given the NDP's performance in the 2000 and 2005 elections, I doubt had they been allowed to stand that they would have taken a significant proportion of the vote.
Here in Romania the communist party was dissolved shortly after the revolution, the former communist party members just reformed under new banners and wormed there way back into power. Had they been allowed to stand as representatives of the Communist party, then post revolution Romania may have turned out better then it did.
I'm also worried that after the MB playing the god card to sway the "yes" vote on the referendum, that they, without any major opposition, will win the election by a landslide. Say goodbye to any hope of a secular Egypt.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 22:11

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Jut posted:

I never said there was a split, and don't pretend to imagine there is, but banning political parties goes against the spirit of democracy. They, like anyone else should have been given the right to stand for election and let the people decide, not the courts. Banning them is little different to how the MB were banned under Mubarak's rule. Anyway given the NDP's performance in the 2000 and 2005 elections, I doubt had they been allowed to stand that they would have taken a significant proportion of the vote.
Here in Romania the communist party was dissolved shortly after the revolution, the former communist party members just reformed under new banners and wormed there way back into power. Had they been allowed to stand as representatives of the Communist party, then post revolution Romania may have turned out better then it did.
I'm also worried that after the MB playing the god card to sway the "yes" vote on the referendum, that they, without any major opposition, will win the election by a landslide. Say goodbye to any hope of a secular Egypt.

Jut I think you're thinking too much of this. The NDP itself is dissolved but it's members can join any other party/form other parties and still work in politics, they're not banned from political work/office.

Also there's rumors the military will employ a system in the next parliamentary elections where you vote for a party, not for an individual so that if MB gets 4 million out of 20 million party votes they get 20% of the seats, so every vote "counts" as opposed to the system where you elect a certain individual. However this would shut the door in front of independents.

Ham fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 16, 2011

# ? Apr 16, 2011 22:19

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

Brown Moses posted:

That's a great article, it's amazing the rebels have held onto Misarata for as long as they have.

The part about harnessing sand, "dirt is their friend," and the guy playing Good Riddance... Wow. Good article.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 22:20

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Jut posted:

I never said there was a split, and don't pretend to imagine there is, but banning political parties goes against the spirit of democracy. They, like anyone else should have been given the right to stand for election and let the people decide, not the courts. Banning them is little different to how the MB were banned under Mubarak's rule. Anyway given the NDP's performance in the 2000 and 2005 elections, I doubt had they been allowed to stand that they would have taken a significant proportion of the vote.
Here in Romania the communist party was dissolved shortly after the revolution, the former communist party members just reformed under new banners and wormed there way back into power. Had they been allowed to stand as representatives of the Communist party, then post revolution Romania may have turned out better then it did.
I'm also worried that after the MB playing the god card to sway the "yes" vote on the referendum, that they, without any major opposition, will win the election by a landslide. Say goodbye to any hope of a secular Egypt.

I'm sorry but you're full of it. The people should have the right to decide but in your home country it was bad they banned the party it reformed under new banners that didn't have the taint of the old and they got elected, which meant the people were wrong.

Except if they did that they might not be wrong since the NDP is the only group which can save us from the MB.

Your hard core concern for democracy isn't even skin deep. Trying to claim that removing the single political party which was so tied into a corrupt regime its entire leadership is under investigation/house arrest for corruption and other crimes is the exact same as banning any other political party is fraught with blind reductionism.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 22:31

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

farraday posted:

Except if they did that they might not be wrong since the NDP is the only group which can save us from the MB.

The only thing stopping the MB or more extreme islamists from gaining a majority in parliament at this point is the military, the NDP wouldn't have stood a chance. It's better that the NDP has now dissolved so people can rally behind other secular parties to face-off against the MB instead of supporting the NDP against them.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 22:34

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

farraday posted:

I'm sorry but you're full of it. The people should have the right to decide but in your home country it was bad they banned the party it reformed under new banners that didn't have the taint of the old and they got elected, which meant the people were wrong.

Except if they did that they might not be wrong since the NDP is the only group which can save us from the MB.

Your hard core concern for democracy isn't even skin deep. Trying to claim that removing the single political party which was so tied into a corrupt regime its entire leadership is under investigation/house arrest for corruption and other crimes is the exact same as banning any other political party is fraught with blind reductionism.

a) Romania isn't my home country, I'm only here for work.

b) Prevent the people who are guilty of crimes (if they are found guilty), from running in an election, don't start screaming for freedom while at the same time partaking in similar actions as the NDP did in '53 and beyond (yes I know it wasn't called the NDP in '53, but it was pretty much the same party)

# ? Apr 16, 2011 23:38

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Jut posted:

a) Romania isn't my home country, I'm only here for work.

b) Prevent the people who are guilty of crimes (if they are found guilty), from running in an election, don't start screaming for freedom while at the same time partaking in similar actions as the NDP did in '53 and beyond (yes I know it wasn't called the NDP in '53, but it was pretty much the same party)

No so-called political party should ever be banned, check. Meanwhile over here in reality we have a different standard than "if anything is even remotely similar at all to any bad thing, it is a bad thing."

The NDP was no more a political party than the Ba'ath party or the Nationalist party of Chiang Kai Shek era Taiwan. It's simply the nominally political machinery of the dictatorship. Pretending it's simply a political party the same as any other when it has been a crucial element of maintaining rule in an era where Constitutional law has been overridden by a perpetual state of emergency is a willful rejection of reality.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 23:47

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's claims tonight that Gaddafi troops crossed into Tunisia briefly, and ended up killing one Tunisian soldier and injuring 3 others, should be interesting to see if that's actually true.

# ? Apr 16, 2011 23:55

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

There's claims tonight that Gaddafi troops crossed into Tunisia briefly, and ended up killing one Tunisian soldier and injuring 3 others, should be interesting to see if that's actually true.

That would be the last straw. If that is true, and the Libyan civil war is spilling out into other countries, I can see an actual military intervention with regime change as its goal being the only solution.

# ? Apr 17, 2011 00:01

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

farraday posted:

No so-called political party should ever be banned, check. Meanwhile over here in reality we have a different standard than "if anything is even remotely similar at all to any bad thing, it is a bad thing."

The NDP was no more a political party than the Ba'ath party or the Nationalist party of Chiang Kai Shek era Taiwan. It's simply the nominally political machinery of the dictatorship. Pretending it's simply a political party the same as any other when it has been a crucial element of maintaining rule in an era where Constitutional law has been overridden by a perpetual state of emergency is a willful rejection of reality.

So a party is OK as long as you think they are not bad? This isn't an issue for the courts to decide in a free country, it's for the population to decide.

Ham, do you know anything else about the political power plays going on over there? Does it look like the military council may make a play for power during the elections? Any chance of them pulling a Iliescu?

# ? Apr 17, 2011 00:06

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Jut posted:

So a party is OK as long as you think they are not bad?

quote:

Here in Romania the communist party was dissolved shortly after the revolution, the former communist party members just reformed under new banners and wormed there way back into power. Had they been allowed to stand as representatives of the Communist party, then post revolution Romania may have turned out better then it did.

quote:

I'm also worried that after the MB playing the god card to sway the "yes" vote on the referendum, that they, without any major opposition, will win the election by a landslide. Say goodbye to any hope of a secular Egypt.

So democracy is a failure if the MB or the new communist party is voted into power, but judging a party as bad isn't right.

If you were anywhere near consistent your so called commitment to democracy would be laudable instead of clearly a smoke screen for you to complain about every single drat thing.

Single party states don't have real political structures, they have oppression/submission structures. Acting like the NDP is a real political party is as stupid as treating anything called an election as democracy or thinking the title President means the person holding it was fairly elected.

You're freely arguing for the corruption of any and all political processes because you can't recognize any difference between things that are called by the same name. You need to have your depth perception checked.

# ? Apr 17, 2011 00:22

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 00:38

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

farraday posted:

So democracy is a failure if the MB or the new communist party is voted into power, but judging a party as bad isn't right.

We judge political parties on a regular basis. It's called opinion, and is something we are encouraged to do as part of the democratic process. Our views only hold weight when it comes to ballot time. It is OUR responsibility and right to judge parties, not the courts.

quote:

If you were anywhere near consistent your so called commitment to democracy would be laudable instead of clearly a smoke screen for you to complain about every single drat thing.

Single party states don't have real political structures, they have oppression/submission structures. Acting like the NDP is a real political party is as stupid as treating anything called an election as democracy or thinking the title President means the person holding it was fairly elected.

So your essentially arguing that the NDP isn't a *real* political party. Go read a dictionary. It fulfills the criteria of a political party

quote:

You're freely arguing for the corruption of any and all political processes because you can't recognize any difference between things that are called by the same name. You need to have your depth perception checked.

The only corruption of political process occurring is courts dictating who can and can't run in elections.

# ? Apr 17, 2011 02:04

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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