Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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ZetaReticuli49er: Nov 5, 2010; by Ozmaugh

I think it is foolish when people use the pronoun 'we' when they describe what their government is doing. Like when someone says 'we are bombing Libya,' 'we went into Iraq,' et cetera.

No one that posts on here or on other internet forums has made any decisions on anything related to these foreign policy matters, and 'we' have virtually nothing to do with the US government other than paying taxes. That is, of course, unless you are in the US military, but even then you did not make any decisions regarding these wars or on any government policy.

In truth, the US government cares nothing about you and you have no influence over it, and if push comes to shove, so to speak, the US government would murder you if you get in it's way, the same way those 'Al Qaida' members are killed via Predator drones.

While I am an American citizen, I never use 'we' when referring to what the US government does. I have nothing to do with the US military apparatus or the US government - US foreign policy departments, and I see myself as an enemy of the US government.

The US government knows how I feel about them too, being that my home (actually my parent's home) has been raided by the US Secret Service back in 2007, and I've had interviews with the ATF and the FBI. I've also donated several hundreds dollars to Wikileaks and let them be aware of that too.

ZetaReticuli49er fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Apr 22, 2011

# ? Apr 22, 2011 19:57

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# ? May 18, 2024 05:25

kolby: Oct 29, 2004

You are a huge spaz.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:09

bich: Dec 18, 2009; by Ozmaugh

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

I think it is foolish when people use the pronoun 'we' when they describe what their government is doing. Like when someone says 'we are bombing Libya,' 'we went into Iraq,' et cetera.

No one that posts on here or on other internet forums has made any decisions on anything related to these foreign policy matters, and 'we' have virtually nothing to do with the US government other than paying taxes.

The same reason people say 'we' when they're talking about what their favorite football team or political party or whatever else did, it's the human instinct to rep yo hood transferred to a global scale

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:11

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

I think it is foolish when people use the pronoun 'we' when they describe what their government is doing. Like when someone says 'we are bombing Libya,' 'we went into Iraq,' et cetera.

No one that posts on here or on other internet forums has made any decisions on anything related to these foreign policy matters, and 'we' have virtually nothing to do with the US government other than paying taxes. That is, of course, unless you are in the US military, but even then you did not make any decisions regarding these wars or on any government policy.

In truth, the US government cares nothing about you and you have no influence over it, and if push comes to shove, so to speak, the US government would murder you if you get in it's way, the same way those 'Al Qaida' members are killed via Predator drones.

While I am an American citizen, I never use 'we' when referring to what the US government does. I have nothing to do with the US military apparatus or the US government - US foreign policy departments, and I see myself as an enemy of the US government.

The US government knows how I feel about them too, being that my home (actually my parent's home) has been raided by the US Secret Service back in 2007, and I've had interviews with the ATF and the FBI. I've also donated several hundreds dollars to Wikileaks and let them be aware of that too.

I see your point about the "we" thing...

Go on, spill the beans, why were you raided/shat on by the law?

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:11

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

I think it is foolish when people use the pronoun 'we' when they describe what their government is doing. Like when someone says 'we are bombing Libya,' 'we went into Iraq,' et cetera.

No one that posts on here or on other internet forums has made any decisions on anything related to these foreign policy matters, and 'we' have virtually nothing to do with the US government other than paying taxes. That is, of course, unless you are in the US military, but even then you did not make any decisions regarding these wars or on any government policy.

In truth, the US government cares nothing about you and you have no influence over it, and if push comes to shove, so to speak, the US government would murder you if you get in it's way, the same way those 'Al Qaida' members are killed via Predator drones.

While I am an American citizen, I never use 'we' when referring to what the US government does. I have nothing to do with the US military apparatus or the US government - US foreign policy departments, and I see myself as an enemy of the US government.

The US government knows how I feel about them too, being that my home (actually my parent's home) has been raided by the US Secret Service back in 2007, and I've had interviews with the ATF and the FBI. I've also donated several hundreds dollars to Wikileaks and let them be aware of that too.

So, tell us 'bout them blacks.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:12

thefncrow: Mar 14, 2001

Leperflesh posted:

In Libya, Predators can do what they were designed to do best, and the enemy is actually identifiable with confidence. It is therefore pretty goddamn stupid to argue that Predator drones are going to make things worse, entirely based on the track record of strikes against the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Predators will hit what they're aimed at, and there has been no indication at all so far that that will be anything other than Ghaddafi tanks, artillery, and anti-aircraft guns.

Except, of course, that there was this from the NY Times article on the decision to use Predator drones:

quote:

The deployment of armed Predators, announced Thursday by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, was in part a reaction to changing tactics by the Qaddafi forces, which are intermingling with civilian populations and mounting attacks from unmarked trucks and other vehicles, making them difficult to identify and attack by high-flying NATO fighters and bombers.

and this from Al Jazeera, quoted not two pages back:

quote:

Marine General James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the drones can help counteract the pro-Muammar Gaddafi forces' tactic of traveling in civilian vehicles that make it difficult to distinguish them from rebel forces.

The plan is to use Predator drones, at least in part, to attack Gaddafi forces using unmarked/civilian vehicles, which sounds far more like what we're doing in Pakistan and Afghanistan than the situation you describe.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:21

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

thefncrow posted:

Except, of course, that there was this from the NY Times article on the decision to use Predator drones:

and this from Al Jazeera, quoted not two pages back:

The plan is to use Predator drones, at least in part, to attack Gaddafi forces using unmarked/civilian vehicles, which sounds far more like what we're doing in Pakistan and Afghanistan than the situation you describe.

There is a difference here in targeting though although it's one that may or may not make a difference in failure rates depending on the rigorousness of the identification procedures. Given the target environment, simply spotting weapons in a civilian vehicle is not enough to identify something as an acceptable target. Theoretically this should mean a higher level of target ID required to identify something as an acceptable target.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:27

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

I don't think it would be that hard for the drones to identify targets given Gadaffi's use of mercenaries, just aim at the black people.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 20:34

ZetaReticuli49er: Nov 5, 2010; by Ozmaugh

Jut posted:

I see your point about the "we" thing...

Go on, spill the beans, why were you raided/shat on by the law?

In 2007, I use to frequent the website Liveleak.com. The site is run mostly by US and coalition military personnel and many of the commentators of the videos are also members of the US military.

During 2007, all kinds of videos were posted on that website of US military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before I started frequenting Liveleak and being largely ignorant of US foreign policy, I assumed the Iraq/Afghanistan war was a "nice war" where the US was the good guys.

On Liveleak, I saw many, many morally reprehensible videos of US soldiers and US mercenaries murdering people for sport and generally acting like depraved lunatics. The comments, which were and are probably still made mostly by US military personnel, were equally depraved. If Liveleak is a representation of how the US conducts a war, then that means the US military, at least in Iraq and Afghanistan, largely consists of a bunch of scumbags.

So I felt enraged by seeing such things and I made some comments on Liveleak about how I felt George Bush should be assassinated for the whole Iraq debacle. I was also, unfortunately, stupidly ignorant of the fact that making such statements, even on an online forum, is very illegal.

A few months later, the US Secret Service arrived at my house, and interviewed me for hours. I was forced to tell them and had to write down why I made such statements online, which I gave them my honest answer. And they then proceeded to confiscated my PC for a hard drives forensic test (I got it back around 3 months later).

I was, fortunately, never arrested or prosecuted for anything, and I think that may be because my father, who has worked for the government his whole life in various agencies such as the IRS and is a Vietnam veteran as well, persuaded them to have some sympathy and not prosecute me. I think they largely avoided prosecuting me mainly to pay respects to him. I also used the excuse that I was on SSRI anti-depressants and the medication side-effects caused me mental issues to help get out of being prosecuted.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 21:05

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

In 2007, I use to frequent the website Liveleak.com. The site is run mostly by US and coalition military personnel and many of the commentators of the videos are also members of the US military.

During 2007, all kinds of videos were posted on that website of US military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before I started frequenting Liveleak and being largely ignorant of US foreign policy, I assumed the Iraq/Afghanistan war was a "nice war" where the US was the good guys.

On Liveleak, I saw many, many morally reprehensible videos of US soldiers and US mercenaries murdering people for sport and generally acting like depraved lunatics. The comments, which were and are probably still made mostly by US military personnel, were equally depraved. If Liveleak is a representation of how the US conducts a war, then that means the US military, at least in Iraq and Afghanistan, largely consists of a bunch of scumbags.

So I felt enraged by seeing such things and I made some comments on Liveleak about how I felt George Bush should be assassinated for the whole Iraq debacle. I was also, unfortunately, stupidly ignorant of the fact that making such statements, even on an online forum, is very illegal.

A few months later, the US Secret Service arrived at my house, and interviewed me for hours. I was forced to tell them and had to write down why I made such statements online, which I gave them my honest answer. And they then proceeded to confiscated my PC for a hard drives forensic test (I got it back around 3 months later).

I was, fortunately, never arrested or prosecuted for anything, and I think that may be because my father, who has worked for the government his whole life in various agencies such as the IRS and is a Vietnam veteran as well, persuaded them to have some sympathy and not prosecute me. I think they largely avoided prosecuting me mainly to pay respects to him. I also used the excuse that I was on SSRI anti-depressants and the medication side-effects caused me mental issues to help get out of being prosecuted.

I barely remember all this stuff (more Liveleak drama than one would imagine out there.) I was a member of ogrish, then registered on Liveleak when they switched over, in 2005 was it? or so?

You say it's now run mostly by military personnel, when did that start?

# ? Apr 22, 2011 21:18

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

So I felt enraged by seeing such things and I made some comments on Liveleak about how I felt George Bush should be assassinated for the whole Iraq debacle. I was also, unfortunately, stupidly ignorant of the fact that making such statements, even on an online forum, is very illegal.

A few months later, the US Secret Service arrived at my house, and interviewed me for hours. I was forced to tell them and had to write down why I made such statements online, which I gave them my honest answer. And they then proceeded to confiscated my PC for a hard drives forensic test (I got it back around 3 months later).

I was, fortunately, never arrested or prosecuted for anything, and I think that may be because my father, who has worked for the government his whole life in various agencies such as the IRS and is a Vietnam veteran as well, persuaded them to have some sympathy and not prosecute me. I think they largely avoided prosecuting me mainly to pay respects to him. I also used the excuse that I was on SSRI anti-depressants and the medication side-effects caused me mental issues to help get out of being prosecuted.

Congratulations on threatening the President.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 21:34

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

I think it is foolish when people use the pronoun 'we' when they describe what their government is doing. Like when someone says 'we are bombing Libya,' 'we went into Iraq,' et cetera.

No one that posts on here or on other internet forums has made any decisions on anything related to these foreign policy matters, and 'we' have virtually nothing to do with the US government other than paying taxes. That is, of course, unless you are in the US military, but even then you did not make any decisions regarding these wars or on any government policy.

In truth, the US government cares nothing about you and you have no influence over it, and if push comes to shove, so to speak, the US government would murder you if you get in it's way, the same way those 'Al Qaida' members are killed via Predator drones.

While I am an American citizen, I never use 'we' when referring to what the US government does. I have nothing to do with the US military apparatus or the US government - US foreign policy departments, and I see myself as an enemy of the US government.

The US government knows how I feel about them too, being that my home (actually my parent's home) has been raided by the US Secret Service back in 2007, and I've had interviews with the ATF and the FBI. I've also donated several hundreds dollars to Wikileaks and let them be aware of that too.

Tell me 'bout them Blacks.

EDIT: Oh drat it, Contraction mapping!

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Apr 22, 2011

# ? Apr 22, 2011 21:47

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

Really how did you think posting about killing President Bush on a forum full of military people was a good idea?

# ? Apr 22, 2011 21:52

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

thefncrow posted:

The plan is to use Predator drones, at least in part, to attack Gaddafi forces using unmarked/civilian vehicles, which sounds far more like what we're doing in Pakistan and Afghanistan than the situation you describe.

If that is true, the concern should still be whether it is a good idea to attempt to hit those targets: and not whether or not we use Predator drones to do so.

Predator drones are being used as a boogeyman here. If we didn't have them, do you think using manned aircraft to try to hit those targets would improve the situation?

Or are you saying if we didn't use Predators, we'd just give up on trying to hit those guys at all? Because if that's the case, then you have talked us into doing nothing at all, and the civilians in Misurata and elsewhere are going to take that many more casualties from them.

Is it better to abandon civilians to death, then to risk killing civilians trying to save them?

It certainly seems from reporting on the ground that the people of Misurata and Benghazi would prefer to take the risk of friendly fire, rather than have no airstrikes at all.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 22:05

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

All this debate and people seem to be missing the rather large massacre that happened across Syria today. So far it seems about 73 are dead, including children.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 23:05

DevNull: Apr 4, 2007; And sometimes is seen a strange spot in the sky
A human being that was given to fly

Xandu posted:

All this debate and people seem to be missing the rather large massacre that happened across Syria today. So far it seems about 73 are dead, including children.

The latest number I have seen is 88. It has slowly been climbing all day. It looks like this might be the tipping point in Syria.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 23:08

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Guys, please remember: we don't care about whatever the gently caress you think. If you've got info or genuine insight about what's going on in the middle east, post. Otherwise kindly gently caress off.

The Guardian:

quote:

Interesting comments just in from America's most senior military officer, who has openly said what many others arguably suspect � while Nato has thus far destroyed up to 40% of Muammar Gaddafi's ground forces the Libya conflict is heading for "stalemate".
Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, is in Baghdad today visiting troops. This is what he had to say, according to Reuters:

It's certainly moving towards a stalemate. At the same time we've attrited somewhere between 30% and 40% of his main ground forces, his ground force capabilities. Those will continue to go away over time.

Despite Gaddafi's theatrical pronouncements on the subject, there was as yet no sign of any al-Qaida involvement, he added:

We're watchful of it, mindful of it and I just haven't seen much of it at all. In fact, I've seen no al-Qaida representation there at all.

quote:

My colleague Brian Whitaker points out this interesting comment piece from Professor Juan Cole, the analyst who opposed the Iraq war but has been a strong proponent of intervention in Libya. Here's a flavour:

"Those who complain about the course of the Libya intervention are being impatient or cynical. The intervention has saved Benghazi and other eastern cities from falling to Gaddafi's tanks and jets. It has allowed Ajdabiya to be restored to rebel hands. It has allowed Misrata, Zintan, Yafran, Naluf and other western cities to hold out against vicious attacks by Qaddafi loyalist armour...

I think there is actually some benefit to the war not ending quickly with a swift eastern conquest of the west with Nato backing. That may be what happens in the end. But in my view it would be preferable for the elites in Tripoli to gradually be pushed back and surrounded and put under such pressure that they turn on Gaddafi and declare for Free Libya. That way you don't have a permanent group of losers, like the Sunni Arabs in Iraq, who would tend to make trouble in the medium term if not the long term."

quote:

I've had another chat with Xan Rice in Misrata, who has further, significant news on a rebel success in the city (see 9.35am).

Xan has been to see the badly-damaged eight-storey office block where, until yesterday, a large number of pro-Gaddafi snipers were holed up, terrorising the population from the city's highest vantage point. After rebels finally pushed the snipers out, Xan saw what they left behind, namely "thousands" of bullet casings, discarded uniforms and, chillingly, graffiti promising never to forgive the city's people and to return and punish them. He adds:

This has been the main objective of the rebels � to get these guys out of this building and surrounding buildings... this is a pretty big thing.

quote:

The US-based campaign group Physicians for Human Rights has released a report alleging that doctors and other medical staff in Bahrain have been targeted by security forces after treating protesters. The report also details attacks on civilians using "bird shot, physical beatings, rubber bullets, tear gas and unidentified chemical agents".

Richard Sollom of the group said attacks on doctors seemed to be "systematic":

"While in Bahrain, I spoke with several eyewitnesses of abducted physicians, many of whom were ripped from their homes in the middle of the night by masked security forces".

quote:

It's also an interesting day in Yemen, where opponents and supporters of the under-siege president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, have been holding rival rallies after Friday prayers.

One is being address by the president himself, who has promised to give a response to a stability plan proposed yesterday by the Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC), in which he would step down in favour of his vice president within a month.

An alert just in from Reuters says Saleh has welcomed the GCC plan "within the framework of Yemen's constitution". More on whatever that means as it comes in.

quote:

A very interesting update from Katherine Marsh in Damascus. It seems the lifting of emergency rule yesterday has had little real impact:

Thousands have started to protest in the following places: Douma, close to Damascus, and the suburbs of Zabadani and Midan � people in the latter have not taken to the streets before. There are also breaking reports of protests in Deir Ezzor, Latakia and towns in Idleb province.
Kurdish sources also confirm that protests have broken out in the north-eastern towns of Ras al-Ayn, Amouda, Qamischli and al-Hassakeh, some shouting for freedom and others calling for the toppling of the regime.
The fear barrier seems to have come down in Syria in a spectacular fashion. Concessions seem to be failing to quell unrest.
Meanwhile, the first application to protest under the new law has ended in the temporary detention of the requester. Fadel al-Faisal from Hassakeh was held for several hours yesterday after filing a request to hold a protest in Hassakeh. Doesn't bode well, activists say.

quote:

Syria:
Security forces have fired live bullets at protesters, as well as tear gas, news agencies are reporting via witnesses. This from AP:

Shootings were reported on the outskirts of the capital, Damascus, and in the central city of Homs ... The witness accounts could not be independently confirmed because Syria has expelled journalists and restricted access to trouble spots. Witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

quote:

Still on Syria, more details from Katherine Marsh:

Tear gas has been used against protesters in Midan who came out of al-Hassan mosque. There are reports of fire opened in Douma and Homs and the Damascus suburb of Sayda Zeinab.

Protests are spreading, quite possibly further afield than last week although the full picture is not yet clear. Further to my earlier update, activists and witnesses say they have also broken out in places including the dusty town of Raqqa, Banias, Hama, al-Tel close to Damascus, Sayda Zeinab, Harasta and Barzeh in Damascus. Tartous, a coastal town south of Banias and Latakia, is a new addition to the list.

Here's a video which purports to show Banias today, and one from Raqqa, where people shouted for Deraa, the besieged town where around 100 people have been killed since protests broke out there on March 18.

A joint statement has been emailed to various media including the Guardian from "the Local Coordination Committees" across Syria setting out a list of demands including that all prisoners of conscience must be freed and the existing security apparatus be dismantled and replaced by one with a specific jurisdiction. It is not yet clear how representative of the protesters the statement is but it seems to have one thing right: "We will continue to demonstrate, whatever the sacrifices," it says.

quote:

Reuters has more details too on the scale of the for-and-against demonstrations in Yemen:

Riot police fired in the air in the southern city of Taiz to try to keep vast, unruly crowds of pro and anti-Saleh demonstrators apart, witnesses said. Ambulance sirens could be heard, but there was no immediate word on casualties.
A sea of anti-Saleh protesters, perhaps in the hundreds of thousands, inundated the streets of Taiz, Yemen's third city and an epicentre of opposition to the 69-year-old president.
Tens of thousands of Saleh loyalists turned out in Sanaa, the capital, for what they called a "Friday of Reconciliation", waving Yemeni flags and pictures of the president.

quote:

Back to Libya, and there is news of an apparent Moroccan peace plan for the country. The foreign ministry in Rabat is seeking a solution after officials met both Gaddafi representatives and rebels this week, an unnamed foreign ministry source told Reuters.
No details as yet about what this plan might entail, or any prospects for its success.

quote:

On Syria again, Katherine Marsh has details of deaths during the protests:

Activists have the names of at least nine people already confirmed killed today: two in Douma, at least one in Homs and at least six in Izraa close to Deraa.
Varied chants have come from different people and different cities: in Kisweh, close to Damascus, people called for freedom; in Banias people shouted, "The people want to topple the regime"; while some protesters are directing anger directly at members of the ruling family.
In some areas, statues and posters of Assad and his father and former president Hafez have been torn down, whilst there have been chants against Maher al-Assad, Bashar's younger brother who commands the elite 4th division.
The 4th division, regarded by most Syrians as a private militia, has been reportedly responsible for some of the shootings in Deraa and elsewhere. In Midan, people chanted: "Zanga zanga, dar dar, Maher is a bigger moron than Bashar!".
Another Assad family member who has been the butt of protesters' ire is Rami Makhlouf, the business tycoon cousin of the president who is under US sanctions.

quote:

One more Syria update from Katherine Marsh:

Activists say at least 20 people have now been confirmed dead, shot by security forces, but they are suggesting the toll could be much higher. Some of the more recent deaths are in Moudamiya, a town in the rural area around Damascus that has seen demonstrations today.
Recently a young male protester from Moudamiyah who took part in the first protest there on 25 March explained to the Guardian how protests might spread: "I tasted freedom for the first time when I went out: it is an addictive feeling that my grandfather and father never had, and more people are now feeling."
The rising death toll is not a good sign for President Bashar al-Assad's regime: here, as in other countries that have risen up, bloodshed has only made protesters angrier, whilst it makes the recent pledges of reform ring hollow.
Earlier, Reem Haddad, a spokeswoman for the ministry of information told Al Jazeera: "I think if the people protest peacefully, if they cause no harm, if they don't burn or destroy, I think [security forces] will allow them to do so [protest], and I think after a certain time they will actually disperse them, tell them to go home."
Responding to the question at what point forces would open fire on protesters, she said: "If they are shot at, which has been the case previously."

# ? Apr 22, 2011 23:17

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Not surprising really, the Baath regime has been increasingly aggressive even as the supposed concessions continue. It is fairly certain in my mind that the apparent difference isn't a split within the leadership but a intentional tactic of attempting to justify the crackdown by arguing, in effect, that demands have been met. I would say that the strategy relies on information control, which I'm not sure the regime has or can maintain. The narrative that demands have been met so anyone still protesting is obviously some sort of illegal insurrectionist faces a counter narrative that killing people proves you aren't actually opening up. The geographical spread of the protests indicates, to me, non state controlled communication channels which the counter narrative will spread while the state media attempts to push its own message.

The obvious historical connection tot he MB led movement that ended with the Hama massacre is less strong then it initially appears given that same geographical spread and broad base of the protest movement. The information black out that surrounded the massacre would likewise be difficult to pull off.While Syria clearly has an extensive security apparatus in place and the military shows no signs of defecting from government control at this time, this continues to be a serious and credible challenge to the government.

# ? Apr 22, 2011 23:17

globe: Jan 28, 2009

Apparently the pro-Gaddafi forces are withdrawing from Misurata:

quote:

The AFP news agency reports that pro-Gaddafi forces will be leaving Misurata:

The Libyan army will withdraw from Misurata and leave local tribes to resolve the conflict in the country's third largest city either by talks or through force, the deputy foreign minister said Friday.

'The situation in Misrata will be dealt with by the tribes around Misurata and Misurata's residents and not by the Libyan army,' Khaled Kaim told journalists.

'We will leave the tribes around Misrata and Misrata's people to deal with the situation, either using force or negotiation.'

# ? Apr 23, 2011 00:33

JammyLammy: Dec 23, 2009

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

The site is run mostly by US and coalition military personnel .

I'm pretty sure that isn't true. If I remember correctly, Liveleak was just a spinoff from Orgish when Orgish want to be more "legit" and report current event, war, etc.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 00:57

Ghetto Prince: Sep 11, 2010; got to be mellow, y'all

They're threatening them with tribesmen now? The rebels in Mistrata just broke the libyan army , how the gently caress will a couple hundred tribesmen do anything? Even if they could be convinced, paid off or intimidated into getting themselves killed, there is literally nothing they could do.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 03:09

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Ghetto Prince posted:

They're threatening them with tribesmen now? The rebels in Mistrata just broke the libyan army , how the gently caress will a couple hundred tribesmen do anything? Even if they could be convinced, paid off or intimidated into getting themselves killed, there is literally nothing they could do.

It certainly sounds like a retreat, but they could just be saying that while using paramilitary forces instead.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 03:26

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Sounds more like regime propaganda. Tell the country that the issue is between tribes and that the government won't be involved anymore. Deflects attention away from the regime and it's attempt to massacre the people. Also saves face at the fact they are retreating.

Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Apr 23, 2011

# ? Apr 23, 2011 03:41

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

JammyLammy posted:

I'm pretty sure that isn't true. If I remember correctly, Liveleak was just a spinoff from Orgish when Orgish want to be more "legit" and report current event, war, etc.

I remember it not being their full decision (as the old forums and old logins still work, and it is very much active.) But I agree with your sentiment, I've never seen a hint of what he's getting at...

# ? Apr 23, 2011 04:38

Sri.Theo: Apr 16, 2008

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/22/misrata-libya-snipers-buildings

Another article about the rebel advance in Misrata, hopefully having that thorn out of their back will allow them a greater advantage against new enemy forces.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 09:19

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The timing of the announcement of the withdrawel and suggestion of using tribes in Misarata is interesting considering the rebels recent gains there. Maybe they really did make a significant gain yesterday.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 09:23

Verizian: Dec 18, 2004; The spiky one.

Wasn't someone talking about a boat that brought a few crates of Milan AT weapons into Misrata the other day?

I'd be loving running too if I'd been laying siege to a town that had held off for weeks using burning rugs and a handful of rifles then all of a sudden they start firing wire guided missiles.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 11:15

mr. nobody: Sep 25, 2004; Net contents 12 fluid oz.

If it's tribes vs. rebels what can NATO do? Maybe this is a slippery strategic move. How much of the army are also part of the tribes?

# ? Apr 23, 2011 16:40

mr. nobody: Sep 25, 2004; Net contents 12 fluid oz.

I was reading the Al-Jazeera Engligh Libya live blog for April 23rd and I saw this image of libyan officials showing reports a crater they say is from an airstrike in tripoli.

Is it even remotely possible that a munition launched/dropped from a jet fighter could leave a perfectly symmetrical hole in the ground with what appears to be a nice circle in the middle of the crater, complete with what looks like an intact partial casing laying within the crater itself?

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# ? Apr 23, 2011 16:50

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Xandu posted:

It certainly sounds like a retreat, but they could just be saying that while using paramilitary forces instead.

This is my guess; they're probably just swapping their formal military units in the area with paramilitary units in civilian attire in the hopes that NATO will go easier on them. Actually handing Misrata to the rebels would be devastating to the moral of the loyalists, so I doubt Gaffy would do it unless he was getting his clock cleaned in the area (which he wasn't).

# ? Apr 23, 2011 16:52

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

mr. nazi posted:

If it's tribes vs. rebels what can NATO do?

In the best case, they don't have to. It is easier for the rebels to negotiate a local ceasefire with tribal leaders than it is to negotiate a ceasefire with the commander of the army (who is one high ranking officer, a Colonel I recall...).

mr. nazi posted:

Is it even remotely possible that a munition launched/dropped from a jet fighter could leave a perfectly symmetrical hole in the ground with what appears to be a nice circle in the middle of the crater, complete with what looks like an intact partial casing laying within the crater itself?

Can't say if it's caused by a bomb or missile, but it looks more like something exposed by the supposed explosion, not the remains of the bomb/missile. Maybe it hit the roof of a bunker.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 17:01

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

Could have also just knocked out someone's cable/internet, it looks like it could have been a decent explosion that just happened to hit dirt.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 17:38

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Pedrophile posted:

Could have also just knocked out someone's cable/internet.

The MONSTERS!!!!

# ? Apr 23, 2011 17:49

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

Has anything those Gaddafi spokespeople said about the actions of the military not been absolute bullshit? Ceasefires that never materialized, supposed control over cities they in fact didn't control, lying about shelling Misurata while journalist there are filming said shelling, etc.

And honestly, "sending in tribes" is laughable, first he would have to arm those "tribes" since during his whole reign Gaddafi made very sure that none of them were armed. He always tried to further the tribal divisions in Libya, the tribes being pretty much the only organizations he allowed to exist beside those controlled directly by himself, but he made sure they were militarily neutered.
There is no contingent of tribal warriors that could rush into battle on the command of a tribal leader.
And I seriously doubt he is going to distribute weapons to tribes now when he didn't trust them in times when the chances of them turning against him were significantly lower.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 17:54

The X-man cometh: Nov 1, 2009

Ghetto Prince posted:

They're threatening them with tribesmen now? The rebels in Mistrata just broke the libyan army , how the gently caress will a couple hundred tribesmen do anything? Even if they could be convinced, paid off or intimidated into getting themselves killed, there is literally nothing they could do.

It definitely sounds like propaganda, then when civilians start getting killed again, CQ will just say "It's not us, it's the tribesmen!"

# ? Apr 23, 2011 18:22

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Pedrophile posted:

Could have also just knocked out someone's cable/internet, it looks like it could have been a decent explosion that just happened to hit dirt.

BBC's Jeremy Bowen commented on the scene:

"A big concrete bunker was hit twice. It wasn't right in the centre of Col Gaddafi's leadership compound, it was what appears to be in a subsidiary part.

The weapons cut through the sandy earth on top of the bunker, then penetrated the concrete and reinforced steel.

Officials said it was used for storing water but I didn't think that was credible. However, there is no evidence of a secondary explosion which suggests the bunker did not contain ammunition.

There are lots of pro-Gaddafi protesters in the area. There are lines of cars driving up and down the road beeping their horns and waving green flags.

Anti-aircraft guns are mounted on a few pick-up trucks in the area and on a roundabout nearby is an encampment of volunteer human shields. Jets continue to fly over the city."

# ? Apr 23, 2011 18:32

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

Nenonen posted:

BBC's Jeremy Bowen commented on the scene:

"A big concrete bunker was hit twice. It wasn't right in the centre of Col Gaddafi's leadership compound, it was what appears to be in a subsidiary part.

The weapons cut through the sandy earth on top of the bunker, then penetrated the concrete and reinforced steel.

Officials said it was used for storing water but I didn't think that was credible. However, there is no evidence of a secondary explosion which suggests the bunker did not contain ammunition.

There are lots of pro-Gaddafi protesters in the area. There are lines of cars driving up and down the road beeping their horns and waving green flags.

Anti-aircraft guns are mounted on a few pick-up trucks in the area and on a roundabout nearby is an encampment of volunteer human shields. Jets continue to fly over the city."

Ahh, so that hole is a lot deeper than it seems.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 18:47

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

Jut posted:

The MONSTERS!!!!

The Monster� Cables!!

# ? Apr 23, 2011 18:48

Invicta{HOG}, M.D.: Jan 16, 2002

Brown Moses posted:

The timing of the announcement of the withdrawel and suggestion of using tribes in Misarata is interesting considering the rebels recent gains there. Maybe they really did make a significant gain yesterday.

There are now competing and contradictory articles up on AP with one trumpeting withdrawal and another with full army invasion after an ultimatum.

EDIT: Now they are updating the invasion article to only include hospital arrivals which seem to be retreating loyalist casualties and it seems that Misrata is safe.

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 23, 2011

# ? Apr 23, 2011 18:49

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# ? May 18, 2024 05:25

mr. nobody: Sep 25, 2004; Net contents 12 fluid oz.

Nenonen posted:

BBC's Jeremy Bowen commented on the scene:

"A big concrete bunker was hit twice. It wasn't right in the centre of Col Gaddafi's leadership compound, it was what appears to be in a subsidiary part.

The weapons cut through the sandy earth on top of the bunker, then penetrated the concrete and reinforced steel.

Officials said it was used for storing water but I didn't think that was credible. However, there is no evidence of a secondary explosion which suggests the bunker did not contain ammunition.

Thanks, that explains the hole quite well!

# ? Apr 23, 2011 19:25

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