Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Slantedfloors: Apr 29, 2008; Wait, What?

Young Freud posted:

What are these Sulafites?

Salafi's, more commonly known as Wahabbists, are the religious sect who's ideology makes up a large percentage of the Middle East's terrorist organizations beliefs. They're extreme cultural conservatives, a subsection of whom believe in violent jihad to spread (their particular hosed-up version of) Islam.

Basically, they're violent assholes and no one likes them.

Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Apr 26, 2011

# ? Apr 26, 2011 19:00

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 04:00

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Bit more from the lovely Jenan Moussa:

quote:

libya(ns) now are screaming angrily at salafites: "Do you want to bring aid into #libya or spread ur ideolody?"

quote:

background info: salafites r carrying aids, no guns. #Libya TNC controls border but @ current state, #egypt(ians) can enter without visa.

quote:

In response to ur questions, banners read: "from salafite organzation in #egypt to our brothers in #benghazi."

quote:

Source tells me: "#libya(n) shouts @ convoy leader, there r no salafites in #benghazi. I'm from #benghazi.What r u trying 2 prove?"

quote:

Angry #libya(ns) at border accuse salafites of being sent by Mr. #gathaf el dam, cousin of #Gaddafi, currently residing in #egypt.

quote:

Mr. Gathaf el Dam stayed until recently in sidi abdul rahman, town not far from #alexandria, where this salafite convoy comes from

ShababLibya has potentially very bad news if true:

quote:

URGENT: Secure source reports that #Misrata about to be hit by 5000 #Gaddafi forces dressed as civilians

quote:

URGENT: Secure source confirms port of #Misrata is being bombarded by grad missiles from #Gaddafi forces

quote:

URGENT: The most massive attack against the resilient city of #Misrata in Western Libya is occurring now

I'm wondering if it relates to the slightly earlier Tweet from LibyanDictator I posted:

quote:

NATO destroys Gaddafi forces of about 30 cars coming in from South East of city heading for port.

At least we know the rebels in Misarata have a poo poo load more guns.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Apr 26, 2011

# ? Apr 26, 2011 19:06

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Today...

The UK, France and Italy are issuing a "statement" to the UN pressing for sanctions against Syria.

Putin is getting pissed at NATO for stepping beyond the UNSCR.

Will be interesting to see what, if anything the UN decides to do about Syria.

# ? Apr 26, 2011 19:44

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Based on this article, the US is interested in sanctions on Syria, but isn't ready to specifically target Bashar al-Assad.

# ? Apr 26, 2011 19:46

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Apparently there's fighting occuring in the East side of Misarata as the rebels try to protect the port from attack.

# ? Apr 26, 2011 20:47

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Salafis are basically extremely religious Wahhabi islamists who would like to enforce sharia 100% in Egypt to try and get back to the religious, economical and social values prevailing in 7th century Arabia by the prophet's followers. Some of them call for stuff like demolishing pharaonic artifacts, abolishing democracy since it's "against sharia" according to them and enforcing religious rule in Egypt. Other issues include separation of sexes and female clothing.

They're also the guys that want this terrorist that participated in the planning of the 1993 terror bombing released from his life sentence in the U.S

Images from their protest in front of the U.S embassy in Cairo five days ago:

http://www.masrawy.com/News/Egypt/Politics/2011/april/21/US_Embassy.aspx

This is a salafi terrorist (white beard, Abud Al Zumur) and one of the main planners of the assassination of Sadat, he was released shortly after the revolution:

# ? Apr 26, 2011 21:13

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Ham posted:

stuff about twats

They sound like a lovely bunch of people. Nothing like longing back for the old days where women knew their place and the median lifespan was less than 40.

# ? Apr 26, 2011 22:06

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Small update:

quote:

Al Jazeera Arabic reports that revolutionaries have taken control of Al Mjabra, western Libya.

That's about 10km east of Nalut.

# ? Apr 26, 2011 22:07

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Guardian had a chat with some Misarata rebels:

quote:

The young men of the Black Car Brigade were sprawled across the living room, chessboard on the table, guitar on the sofa, guns leaning against the wall.

For the first time in weeks they had enjoyed a full night's sleep, a shave and a shower. Coffee had been brewed, and bread rolls delivered. Muammar Gaddafi's forces had been kicked out of the city centre in Misrata, allowing them a rest � and a chance to act their age.

"This is Mr al-Qaida," said Abdulfatah Shaka, 22, a student of refrigeration engineering, Pink Floyd aficionado, tank destroyer and leader of the small rebel cell, pointing to his cousin and classmate Mohamed, 21.

Next he gestured towards Alsallabi, 20, whose university studies have also been interrupted by the revolution in February. "That is the Taliban."

The joke was on Gaddafi, who has blamed the uprising on Islamist terror groups. Everyone laughed: Bashir the seaman, unemployed Ahmed, Abdulmajid the floor tile salesman and Bassam the student. At 23, he was the oldest in the room � until 30-year-old Abdulhamid strolled in after a 10-hour sleep: "My best in two months." In better times he was a chef. "I swapped my spoon for a Kalashnikov," he said.

The uneasy calm that descended over Misrata on Tuesday � the first such day in more than a month � was a consequence of the resounding defeat suffered by Gaddafi's forces inside the city. The remaining troops and artillery are now concentrated in the southern outskirts, leaving as much as 90% of the city free. The rain of missiles launched from up to 10 miles outside the city has also slowed, with some rebels saying Nato warplanes had destroyed some of Gaddafi's armoury overnight.

But there have been few celebrations among the people here. A battle has been won, not a war. And the conflict will soon resume, from one side or the other. "We are getting ready, resting, fixing our machines," said Ibrahim "Grande" Shiniba, 39, a senior rebel who once played football for Libya. "We have our men watching Gaddafi's forces, seeing what they are doing. Maybe we will attack them later today, or tomorrow."

In defending the city, the rebels have suffered heavy losses. The Black Car Brigade, as Gaddafi's forces called them because of the colour of their battlewagons, originally had about 200 men. About 30 were killed and 100 injured. Others have taken their places.

The rebels say they are still waiting for more weapons and ammunition, but will fight on with what they have, most of it scavenged from Gaddafi's forces. Mohamed Shaka, "Mr al-Qaida", examined the 14.5mm machinegun he had welded on to the back of his pickup, complete with a custom-built firing chair made from metal and a hospital mattress.

The car was reinforced with thick steel plates in front and back. There was no bonnet. On the dashboard were three books: a biography of Martin Luther King, Oscar's Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest, and Thomas Hardy's Tales from Longpuddle.

Shaka shrugged. "When there's a break in fighting I like to read."

The cell was based near Tripoli Street, the city's main thoroughfare and the scene of its heaviest gunbattles. For several blocks on either side the houses bear the scars of bullets, grenades or shells. Virtually everyone living here fled when Gaddafi's forces came in, though some were too late.

Abdulfatah Shaka's father was one of those unlucky people, kidnapped from the living room where his son and the other young rebels were now relaxing. Like hundreds of other abducted civilians in Misrata, he has not been seen for more than a month.

Across the road, Salah Sadawi stood outside her house, cradling one of her five-month-old twins. It was the first time in weeks she had been back to her home, and she was surveying the damage. The lock of the gate was riddled with bullet holes where Gaddafi's soldiers had forced their way in. Sadawi said a Mauritanian soldier � one of Gaddafi's mercenaries � had ordered her husband, Hana Siddig, an English translator, to shave his beard. "They said he was a terrorist and then they took him away. When they came back they said he had confessed and that I must show them the weapons. But we have no weapons. They said I should forget about my husband, as he would be killed. Just forget about him."

Also, that early report about 5000 troops heading to Misarata didn't seem to pan out.

Here's some footage of rebels fighting in the Western mountains, gives you an idea of what weapons they are using, you can tell they are quite well armed and mobile.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 26, 2011

# ? Apr 26, 2011 22:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

More interesting but unverified reports from ChangeInLibya:

quote:

TRIPOLI BREAKING: NATO jets destroyed the Sidi Bilal naval base today, which is where Gaddafi was preparing to attack Misrata from #libya

quote:

Tripoli: Sidi Bilal is also where Hannibal, Gaddafi's son is based & rumours that his office was completely destroyed in the attacks

quote:

Misrata: A loud series of explosions coming from the coastal road (Zawiya almahgoub) were heard but their origin is unclear

True or not, I don't think today has been a good day for Gaddafi, seems like the rebels are slowly gaining ground in the West, and the East is still in a stalemate. Not exactly good if he ever plans to split the country in two.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Apr 26, 2011

# ? Apr 26, 2011 22:56

Warthog: Mar 8, 2004; Ferkelwämser extraordinaire

This doesn't look like the usual rebel-AT-weapon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyYHuPToXA8&t=70s

Oh and are there estimates how many of the dead rebels were actually killed by G's forces and not just by their friends with no clue how to handle an AK?

Warthog fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Apr 27, 2011

# ? Apr 26, 2011 23:57

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Warthog posted:

This doesn't look like the usual rebel-AT-weapon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyYHuPToXA8&t=70s

Looks like a MILAN anti-tank missile, which was a weapon that was reportedly in the Libyan army's arsenal and one of the weapons likely looted from them by the rebels.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 00:02

DELETED: Nov 14, 2004; Disgruntled

I love the guy kicking back having a battlefield snack, barely even flinches

# ? Apr 27, 2011 00:26

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Interesting/awful interview with Gaddafi's daughter, Aisha.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/world/africa/27aisha.html?_r=1

# ? Apr 27, 2011 03:05

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Man, this whole situation could be resolved if the rebels would just accept one of Gaffy's children as his successor. It's not his fault, he's just a senile old man, his children are completely sane and would be more than capable of provi...

Aisha el-Qaddafi posted:

She taunted both President Obama and Mrs. Clinton, saying that Mr. Obama had �achieved nothing so far� and laughing as she posed a question to Mrs. Clinton: �Why didn�t you leave the White House when you found out about the cheating of your husband?�

...

Without Colonel Qaddafi, she predicted, illegal immigrants from Africa would pour into Europe, Islamic radicals would establish a base on the Mediterranean�s shores, and Libyan tribes would turn their guns on one another.

...

She also appeared to dismiss witnesses� accounts of Colonel Qaddafi�s forces shooting unarmed demonstrators. �I am not sure that happened,� she said. �But let�s say it did: it was limited in scope.�

...

As for her father�s state of mind, she said with a laugh that he was not worried at all. �He is as strong as the world knows him,� she said. �He is quite sure that the Libyan people are loyal to him.�

# ? Apr 27, 2011 04:04

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Contraction mapping posted:

illegal immigrants from Africa would pour into Europe

In all fairness this does appear to be happening to the point where France and Italy are asking for the open border policy to be revised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13189682

# ? Apr 27, 2011 05:42

Redgrendel2001: Sep 1, 2006; you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.

Contraction mapping posted:

Man, this whole situation could be resolved if the rebels would just accept one of Gaffy's children as his successor. It's not his fault, he's just a senile old man, his children are completely sane and would be more than capable of provi...

Denial is to the east ma'am.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 05:48

Homeroom Fingering: Apr 25, 2009; The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know

quote:

Under her brother Seif�s unofficial leadership, she said, the Libyan government had been on the verge of unveiling a constitution as a step toward democratic reform when �this tragedy happened and spoiled things.�

Oh we were JUST about to form a democracy. And we were JUST about to invest heavily in the east. And we were JUST about to announce free candy Tuesday but those eastern terrorists ruined it. Nope, too late, now you get nothing. Aha, I bet you feel stupid now.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 06:28

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live blogs 27th April
AJE Libya
Guardian

Few updates from the last 8 hours or so:

quote:

US loosens sanctions on Libya to enable US firms to buy oil from rebel forces so that they can "use the income from oil sales to purchase weapons and other supplies". Read in full here.

US firms can now buy oil, gas and other petroleum products through Qatar Petroleum or the multinational Vitol Group as long as proceeds do not benefit Gaddafi's government.

quote:

Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez said a Libyan delegation is in his country to discuss "possible peaceful solutions" to the ongoing conflict. Chavez last month said claims that Gaddafi's forces have killed civilians is "a great lie". Libyan rebels have rejected Chavez's proposal for talks.

quote:

US president Barack Obama has ordered the expenditure of up to $25m in surplus government goods to support Libya's opposition groups and protect civilians. The directive on Tuesday authorises the money to be used for non-lethal commodities and services.

These include medical supplies, uniforms, boots, tents, personal protective gear, radios and meals prepared according to Islamic tradition. The money cannot be used to assist rebel fighters in cash, weapons or ammunition.

quote:

One of the two representatives for the rebels at the AU-Libya talks in Ethiopia said they would continue to engage with the AU to "find a solution that will lead to the aspirations of the Libyan people, including the departure of the regime".

quote:
"How can you have peace with him [Gaddafi] around? He is not a man of peace, he is a man of war and violence," Al Zubedi Abdalla, a representative of Libya's opposition, told reporters after talks with AU officials.

The AU has proposed a solution that calls for an immediate cessation of hostilities followed by a transitional period and political dialogue.

The rebels rejected the plan earlier this month, saying any settlement must include the departure of Gaddafi and his sons.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 08:38

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Young Freud posted:

Looks like a MILAN anti-tank missile, which was a weapon that was reportedly in the Libyan army's arsenal and one of the weapons likely looted from them by the rebels.

MILAN AT Missiles have actually been provided to the rebels by Qatar, and they are currently being trained to use them effectively in combat. I was saying last week that if they had been sent to Misarata with them then they'd be able to push out Gaddafi's forces, but it seems they don't even need that.

They could still be useful in Misarata for taking out any vehicle hidden in buildings that NATO jets can't hit, especially as they have a 2km range. In a city it's pretty easy to get with in 2km of something undetected, so it would be a huge threat to Gaddafi's vehicles.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 08:48

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

I was watching that travel show with Ewan McGregor (Long Way Down) and he was traveling through Libya on a motorbike. They went through sandstorms that lasted hours and it just shows how easily they can avoid detection- or I guess how hard it is for NATO to track them, and apparently the storms are pretty frequent. There is literally no visibility 30 metres all around.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 09:13

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Lascivious Sloth posted:

I was watching that travel show with Ewan McGregor (Long Way Down) and he was traveling through Libya on a motorbike. They went through sandstorms that lasted hours and it just shows how easily they can avoid detection- or I guess how hard it is for NATO to track them, and apparently the storms are pretty frequent. There is literally no visibility 30 metres all around.

From my experience living in Qatar, you don't dare go outside during a bad sandstorm, and viability is reduced to almost nothing (doesn't stop people driving like idiots though, inshallah and all that)

# ? Apr 27, 2011 09:22

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I think there's been a lot of sand storms in the East recently, which is probably why there's not been much activity over there, and both sides have been digging in. Gives the rebels more time to train though.

Now Misarata has calmed down the various news organisations have been doing good reports from there, including this one:

quote:

For 10-year-old Mohammed, war used to be a game - his favourite game. He would lose himself for hours in shootouts on his games console.

But he is a child of Misrata, where the bloodshed is now not make-believe.

And just over a week ago, as he played in his yard, a speeding bullet penetrated his skull. Doctors say a fragment passed right through his brain.

Now he lies in a hospital bed, conscious but gripped by a searing headache. His voice rises and falls with the waves of pain. He cries out for his uncle, for God, and most often, for his mother, Zeinab, who keeps a vigil by his side.

"The bombing had stopped so he went outside to play with his cousins," she said. "He was tying his shoelaces when the bullet hit him. It's a miracle he survived."

Before he was hit, Mohammed was already contemplating his own death, Zeinab says.

"Two days beforehand he told me, 'If I am killed don't cry. You should celebrate. I will be a martyr,'" she says.
Endless flow

Mohammed is her only child. Mother and son suffer as one. When he cries, she winces, gripping his hand, and reciting prayers. Doctors say he is improving, but they are concerned about his headaches, and the risk of a haemorrhage.

Casualties arrive at the hospital in an endless flow - as if on a conveyor belt. Over a 15-minute period recently 120 were rushed in.

"We are exhausted by blood, and exhausted by death," said Dr Abdullah Jawad, a casualty surgeon. "We have been working like this for 60 days. Col Gaddafi just wants to kill."

Soon after we arrived, visitors were asked to clear the crowded hospital car park. Staff were worried the large numbers could provoke a mortar attack.

The medical staff are battling against fatigue, shortages, and their own grief.

"Misrata is a big city, but we are one family," said Dr Fathi Mohammed, a softly spoken young surgeon. "Sometimes you don't have time to even look at your patient, but after a few minutes you realise that you know him, and he is dying.

"My school friend died in front of me. At any time they might bring some of my family here."

On most days at least 10 people die in the hospital, he says, with over 100 injured - most of them young.
Cluster bombs

The wounded arrive with horrific injuries - the result of mortars, grenades, and snipers. An increasing number have lost limbs - which may be the result of cluster bombs.

We found remnants of these widely banned weapons attached to a makeshift barricade in a district near the front line. The rebels there told us they had been used on homes and a supermarket.

By day, these rebels mount checkpoints - a kind of armed neighbourhood watch. And by night they fight - often to the death.

Their leader, Hasan Duah, is a middle-aged factory worker who never expected to take up arms.

"On the first day we went down into the streets to hold a peaceful demonstration," he said. "We've been forced to hold guns and weapons to defend ourselves."

Two months on they have mastered street-fighting techniques, and used their local knowledge to their advantage. In key areas of the city centre the rebels managed to encircle Col Gaddafi's forces, cutting their supply lines.

At the weekend the regime claimed to have suspended operations against the rebels, and its forces withdrew in places. Since then, however, the deadly shelling of the city has continued, and Misrata has seen some of the worst violence since the siege began.

"The retreat is just a trick," said Rida al-Montasser, a rebel supporter and local organiser. "Gaddafi intends to send his soldiers back here in civilian clothes."

It's a tactic the Libyan leader has used before, in battlegrounds in eastern Libya such the town of Ajdabiya.
Cracks, thumps, thuds

Many in Misrata believe there is a lot more fighting left to do.

"It could go on for another two or three months," said Kasim Ibrahim, a businessman. "But if Nato really helped it could be over in 15 days."

During a three-day stay in the city, we heard Nato warplanes overhead several times, but did not see or hear any fresh air strikes.

But another soundtrack became very familiar - the percussion of war. Both day and night were punctuated by the cracks, thumps, and thuds of heavy artillery and mortars. Sounds that can mean instant death - for fighters and civilians alike.

The rebels have suffered heavy losses - clearing one key intersection cost 100 men. A shortage of weapons can mean that guns have to be shared, passed from hand to hand at the end of fighting shifts.

One 20-year-old student told me he was often bare-handed on the front line. When two of his best friends were killed beside him by a mortar attack, he left the besieged city - but only to look for guns.

Rebel sources told us they are getting re-armed from their de facto capital, Benghazi, but so far had not received weapons from foreign friends like Qatar. A three-man French team had arrived in the city, they said, to help pinpoint the location of Col Gaddafi's forces.

What the rebels lack in arms, they appear to make up for in resolve. And, critically, they know the consequences of failure.

"When I fight, I have a big chance to win," said Mr Montasser. "If I give up I will certainly die. Gaddafi will not leave us alive."

Many in Misrata stress that their revolt is for freedom, not for bread. The port city has a long history as a centre of trade. It has a developed infrastructure, and an educated population. The problem here was oppression, not poverty.

Before the uprising in the city, Mr Montasser was a businessman, with a tile factory. Now he's a revolutionary, with a beard. But he's quick to explain the facial hair now sported by many men in Misrata.

"Please don't think we are al-Qaeda," he said.

"We all agreed not to shave until Col Gaddafi was gone," he said. "Nobody thought it would take this long."

At this point Gaddafi's forces are fighting 2 month street fighting veterans, who are increasingly heavily armed, and highly motivated, with a city full of reinforcements. I can't imagine that moral among the Gaddafi troops is very high after being pushed out, and they must know they lost a lot of equipment that's now in rebel hands.

I think the key thing now is for NATO to destroy as much artillery and ammo dumps as possible, and ensure the port is left open so the city can be resupplied. There are rumours on Twitter that NATO aircraft destroyed a column of about 30 Gaddafi technicals heading to Misarata, which if true would be a massive blow to Gaddafi's forces. Either way, Gaddafi's forces have suffered a massive defeat in Misarata.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 09:33

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

LibyaFeb17.com just posted a video update for Misarata for April 26th, with this translation:

quote:

← April 27th Updates
Video: Misrata update April 26th
Posted on April 27, 2011 by admin

Here�s April 26th Misrata update, thanks to Wefaq Libya and Freedomgroup TV. Thanks to ChangeInLibya for the translation.

�Today we cleared the apartment buildings on the coastal road in the area close to Kirzaz, and we killed the snipers and Gaddafi forces there and thankfully we managed to lift the freedom flags on that area too, meaning it has been liberated.�

�As for the group of Gaddafi vehicles (35) that tried to sneak into Misrata from the East, from the area of Gharghar, NATO managed to destroy this convoy, which was clearly trying to attack Misrata�s port with anti-aircraft cannons of different sizes and types. They were trying to attack our port and Qasr Ahmed to distract us and attack us from behind. The revolutionaries then managed to finish off all of the soldiers and the vehicles that survived NATO�s initial attack.�

�As for the centre of Misrata, the residents continued to clean the city today and life is starting to resume slowly. Morale is extremely high and people are very happy to help each other out, despite the constant bombardment and the people of Misrata are not phased by Gaddafi�s attacks.�

�He destroyed a few warehouses today, one of them was holding a large amount of powdered baby milk amongst other things. As for the Tripoli street bridge, the area is relatively quiet nowadays despite the fact that Gaddafi soldiers are based in the airport nearby. We�re still surrounding them there and there were some clashes next to the air academy and we managed to block their attempts to advance back into Tripoli street.�

�We heard that there were 50 cars carrying the freedom flag trying to sneak into Misrata?�

�Yes, we heard about them and we told everyone about these news and all the revolutionaries are ready for any attack at all of the city�s checkpoints The only way they will be able to get into our beloved city is over our dead bodies. Gaddafi�s forces are obviously starting to weaken & retreat and it seems like their morale is very low. And we promise you that we�ll not only free our city but even Tripoli soon. We saw the videos of Tripoli�s youth and we tell them that we know what they�re going through and that we support them. God bless Libya and grant it freedom.�

ChangeInLibya adds this is not an exct word-for-word translation but everything is accurate.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 09:51

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

quote:

A three-man French team had arrived in the city, they said, to help pinpoint the location of Col Gaddafi's forces.

That was a weird statement to throw in there with no explanation or relevance. I assume that means French special forces are lasing targets inside Misrata. Good news.

vvv Yes, but not much on teams inside the towns which was the problem, NATO couldn't hit targets inside Misrata.

Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Apr 27, 2011

# ? Apr 27, 2011 09:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's been various unconfirmed reports of special forces from various countries being in Libya, probably looking for ammo dumps and the like.
Update from Misarata:

quote:

Gaddafi's forces have bombed the harbour in Misrata after a lull in ground fighting in the city, Xan Rice reports.

In an Audioboo interview he says the port is a key target for Gaddafi's forces because is the only way rebels are getting supplies.

There are reports that migrant workers waiting to be rescued may have been killed in the attacks. "I understand one of the missiles did cause some casualties, either landing among them or near them," Xan says.

The rebels have no defence against Gaddafi's missiles, Xan reports, but he says their morale remains high.

"They have defeated Gaddafi's guys in the city and there intention is to take that further and kick them out of the city altogether. [But] there are not celebrations here. It is a battle that has been won, it is certainly not the war."

On the lull in ground fighting Xan says: "There wasn't much shooting overnight, and I haven't heard much this morning. It is uneasy calm. Where there was heavy fighting it is still deserted. It is not like people are flocking back to their homes. People know there is more to come."

# ? Apr 27, 2011 10:01

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This article from AJE is worth a read. The writer visits a small town in the East and speaks to the people there, gives you a good feeling of how people feel, and what their experiences are. It's too long to post here, but worth a read.

It does make me wonder if the unity of the rebels that's has made them forget old tribal and family divisions will survive the fall of Gaddafi's regime, or if they might surface again.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:00

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=45810

quote:

Leaders from 61 Libyan tribes urge end to Gathafi rule
PARIS - Chiefs or representatives of 61 tribes from across Libya called Wednesday for an end to Moamer Gathafi's rule, in a joint statement released by French writer Bernard-Henri Levy.

"Faced with the threats weighing on the unity of our country, faced with the manoeuvres and propaganda of the dictator and his family, we solemnly declare: Nothing will divide us," said the text, drawn up in Benghazi on April 12.

"We share the same ideal of a free, democratic and united Libya," it said.

"The Libya of tomorrow, once the dictator has gone, will be a united Libya, with Tripoli as its capital and where we will at last be free to build a civil society according to our own wishes," it predicted.

A well-known intellectual in France, Levy has become an unofficial spokesman for the Libyan revolt in Paris and is credited with pressing President Nicolas Sarkozy to mobilise international political and military support for it.

He said the statement had been prepared in the eastern rebel bastion of Benghazi, but had been circulated around the country, and had now been endorsed by many influential tribal leaders in areas where Gathafi still holds sway.

"Each of the tribes in Libya is represented by at least a representative. In this list of 61 signatures, some tribes are represented 100 percent, others are still divided," he said.

Levy has published the statement on the website of his magazine, La Regle du Jeu, including scans of the original handwritten signatures in Arabic.

"We form, we the Libyans, a single and united tribe -- the tribe of free Libyans, battling against oppression and the wicked genie of division," it reads, according to the French translation of the text.

Waiting for the statement to be released in English with a full list of tribes to see how many people it covers. I think there's about 140 clans and tribes in Libya. It'll be interesting to see if it includes tribes the government claimed would attack Misarata.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:09

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Brown Moses posted:

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=45810

Waiting for the statement to be released in English with a full list of tribes to see how many people it covers. I think there's about 140 clans and tribes in Libya. It'll be interesting to see if it includes tribes the government claimed would attack Misarata.

http://laregledujeu.org/2011/04/27/5465/toutes-les-tribus-de-libye-nen-font-quune/

French isn't much different than english in a case like this.

The arabic scans are a bit weird though, the handwriting is unusually informal for an announcement like this.

edit: This is odd too

quote:

60 � Tribu Al Khadaddfa:
Khalifa Saleh Al Khadafi

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:17

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Tribes the Libyan government claimed would attack Misarata:
Warfalla
Tarhuna
Zlitan
Tawargha

From the signed statement:
Tribu Werfalaa: Mouftah Matouk Al Werfali
Tribu Tarhounaa: Sil�man Khalifa Al Tarhouny
Tribu Ahali Z�liten: Hassan Mouhmed Kouraim
Tribu Al Tawajer: Mouhamed Omar Issmail

I assume they are the same, the differences in the spelling being the Arabic-Latin alphabet conversion issues that have been discussed in the past.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:23

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Do you have a link to the government claiming that?

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:26

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I got the names from this Time article, which itself quotes this NYT article:

quote:

In a postmidnight news conference Sunday, Libya�s deputy foreign minister, Khalid Kaim, said that the military had not withdrawn from Misurata but merely ceased operations in order to give tribal leaders a chance to negotiate a resolution to the siege.

Mr. Kaim said leaders of tribes that depend on Misurata�s port � including the Warfalla, the Tarhuna, the Zlitan and the Tawargha � had asked the government for a chance to try to settle the conflict. But if no deal was reached in 48 hours, Mr. Kaim said, more than 60,000 armed men from the tribes would move in, and the Libyan Army remained in position to attack as well.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Bit more context, I found this article from CS Monitor from last month, detailing some of the tribes and their apparent alliegance. Here's a list of tribes I believe signed the declaration (Arabic to Latin conversion permitting:
1 � Tribu Awaguire:
Dr. Mansour Saad

quote:

Al-Awaqir (pro-Qaddafi): According to Arabic daily Asharq Alawsat: "The al-Awaqir tribe has also historically played a prominent role in Libyan politics, including during the previous era of the Libyan monarchy as well as during Gaddafi's reign. Al-Awaqir tribal members have held senior positions within Gaddafi's regime, including ministerial positions."

2 � Tribus de Misrata:
Al Shikh Ali Mouhamed Griraa

quote:

Misurata (anti-Qaddafi): The largest and most influential tribe in eastern Libya, according to Arabic daily Asharq Alawsat, takes its name from the Misurata district in northwestern Libya. The tribe has particularly strong influence in the cities of Benghazi and Darneh.

60 � Tribu Al Khadaddfa: (could be another tribe)
Khalifa Saleh Al Khadafi

quote:

Qadhafah (pro-Qaddafi): A relatively small tribe from which Qaddafi hails has staffed his elite military units. Reported to control the Air Force. It "had historically not been an important tribe in Libya prior to Colonel Gaddafi's ascent to power," reported Asharq Alawsat.

39 � Tribu Al Maguarhaa:
Al Hajj Moussa Al Magurahi

quote:

Magariha (alliance unclear): Libya's second-largest tribe, the Magariha are led by Abdel Sallam Jalloud, who was second-in-command in the country for decades until he fell out of favor with Qaddafi. A member of the tribe, Abdel Baset Al Megrahi, was convicted for the 1988 Lockerbie bombing. Brigadier General Abu Bark Younis Jaber, Libyan head of the army, is another prominent member. Indeed, the Magariha may be "best positioned to carry out a coup against Colonel Qaddafi because many of its members are in senior government and security services positions," reports The National.

55 � Les tribus de Al Zawaia:
Al Hajj Abd Al Salam Al Zawi

quote:

Zuwaya, or Zawiya (alliance unclear): Hailing from the central coast, the tribe is active in government, with member Abdulqasim Zwai serving as justice minister. But on Feb. 20, tribal leader Sheikh Faraj al-Zwai threatened to interrupt oil exports if the use of violence didn't stop, according to Der Spiegel.

4 � Tribu Werfalaa:
Mouftah Matouk Al Werfali

quote:

Warfalla (anti-Qaddafi): With more than 1 million members, the Warfalla is Libya's largest tribe and accounts for one-sixth of the nation's total population. It has traditionally made up Qadaffi's security apparatus and aligned with the pro-Qaddafi Qadhafah tribe. But in a stinging rebuke to the regime, the Warfalla was the first tribe to join the antigovernment movement. "It�s a very bad sign for Gaddafi�s regime," said the analyst Mr. Abidi. "And the regime knows that."

In 1993, Warfalla officers from southeast of Tripoli launched a failed coup attempt with alleged backing from the Magariha tribe. The reason, according to a 2002 report from Input Solutions, "was this tribe was poorly represented in the regime and only occupied second-echelon posts in the officers' corps."

According to the report: "If Jalloud's Magariha, the Warfalla, and Islamic militant groups unite against Qadhafi in an all-out confrontation involving the military, they could take over power. But that would soon be followed by challenges from other tribes. Ultimately, if Qadhafi is overthrown, these tribes could fight each other and Libya could be split into several regions."

I'm not sure this is 100% right because of the Arabic-Latin alphabet issues, so feel free to contradict my assumptions.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:55

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Some good news from Misarata:

quote:

The port of the besieged rebel-held city of Misurata in western Libya was quiet on Wednesday after fierce bombardment and attack the day before by government forces.

The comparative calm allowed an Albanian ship, the Red Star 1, chartered by the International Organisation of Migration to dock at the port of Misurata with ten shipping containers of aid and two ambulances.

The ship was also there to evacuate refugees from the battered city that has become the main battlefield in the war between Muammar Gaddafi's forces and the rebels.

Everywhere around the port were signs of fierce bombardment, including a pillar of black smoke from a fiercely burning pile of tires ignited in the shelling.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 11:56

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

quote:

The battle for the port of Misurata has intensified, underlining its value as a make-or-break city for both the regime of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and the rebels fighting to oust him.

Officials on both sides openly admit to the strategic importance of the port, which serves as a crucial conduit for military and humanitarian aid to the uprising in Libya's conflict-wracked west.

quote:
"This port is too much of a headache for Gaddafi, so he wants to destroy it at whatever cost," Colonel Ahmed Omar Bani, military spokesman of the Benghazi-based Transitional National Council, said on Wednesday.

An official in the capital told the AFP news agency, on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals, that Misurata was of critical importance to the regime because "simply put: if it fell, the rebels will be at the doors of Tripoli."

Misurata remains besieged by Gaddafi's troops to the east, south and west, with its only access to the outside world by sea. The airport, which has been badly damaged, is in the hands of regime forces, according to the rebels.

It's likely that Gaddafi will destroy the port if it looks unlikely he'll be able to capture it, so it's really essential the NATO jets destroy any artillery in the area.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 12:55

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

A long and excellent article about the rebels fighting in the western mountains, well worth a read, especially as it indicates they are receiving equipment from foreign sources:

quote:

This rugged terrain has witnessed a hidden war in the fight against Colonel Qaddafi. Rebel forces here � many of them ethnic Berbers native to the tough terrain � recently took control of a border crossing with Tunisia, opening a critical new supply line for the embattled opposition, and have gained enough ground in recent days to mark an important waypoint in Libya�s revolution.

Several NATO airstrikes Monday � the first after more than two months of fighting in this region � have boosted rebel confidence that this front will no longer be neglected. Rebels say that Arab and Berber tribes and towns along the 90-mile belt of the high sandstone Nafusah Mountain, which stretches from Tunisia to south of Tripoli, are now largely united in their opposition to Qaddafi, despite efforts by Tripoli to play one against the other.

quote:

The rebels at the hospital Monday had all fought in a battle six miles east of Nalut that pitted the Libyan government's rockets, 106-mm cannons, and anti-aircraft guns against rifle-bearing rebels using RPGs and anti-aircraft weapons captured in past battles. The rebels' win meant a new haul of weaponry, and spirits were high.

quote:

But as five badly wounded and bloodied government soldiers were rushed into the emergency room, rebel guards outside the hospital protested noisily that their enemies would be given care. �They are killing our brothers and sisters!� said one volunteer, as hospital staff tried to calm him. �We don�t have to treat them; they can just die.�

One male nurse with a blood-spattered gown explained: �We help all the patients because we are Muslim.�

Town elders said the treatment of the wounded captives showed a humane approach that was not mirrored by Qaddafi loyalists, whose units they say have poisoned wells with diesel and oil and gunned down flocks of sheep to wreck livelihoods in villages under their control.

quote:

Loyalist forces �keep firing, like children playing, all day long and at night � it�s a crazy way of fighting,� says Wajdi, a young rebel organizer from Nalut whose English has been put to use giving NATO details of Qaddafi force locations and strength on a new Inmarsat satellite phone handset tucked into his pocket.

But until Monday those details went unused, even though loyalist strikes hit farms and �burned everything,� he says.

�Today NATO started strikes! Today I am very happy� I have sent to NATO so much information,� Wajdi said Monday, adding that the three or four targets were missile launchers and vehicles. �The rebels are definitely confident they will win [but] we need to cooperate with NATO because we are working to the same goals, if we apply UN Security Council resolutions to protect civilians.�

quote:

�We don�t know exactly how many [government] troops there are, or what they have,� says Mr. Shalbak, who shows his obsession with the band Metallica on a silver skull ring. He has observed government troops planting mines, and so rebels are now �afraid to move� into those areas.

�Any battle in the open area, the casualties are too much, we can�t survive,� says Shalbak. But tactics from Tripoli, including trying to divide Arabs in some towns against the majority Berbers, or Amazigh, have only caused them to unify against the regime.

�His actions did the opposite of what Qaddafi intended, and now we [Berbers and Arabs] are united against him,� says Shalbak. �He knows [Berber] pride here is strong, that we won�t lay down for him.�

quote:

Still, a drive from the Dehiba-Wazin border post 30 miles east toward Nalut shows how well defended this escarpment and this town have become, with at least one deeply dug trench to trap any oncoming tanks, and bulldozers at the ready to block roads with earth barriers.

Rebels say it would take the Libyan army days to dig through the barriers they have already built. Says one nicknamed Ayoub, the loyalist forces are as likely to �come from the moon� as to break through.

�No one gives us tanks or bombs; people here fight with bird guns. It�s a big shame,� says the caterer, who usually lives in Manchester, England. He also has a new Inmarsat satellite phone.

quote:

Rebel forces have nevertheless made real strides, including the takeover of the border post last Thursday morning, which sent more than 100 Libyan police fleeing into Tunisia � and opened a supply route that brings fuel, fresh produce, and even a few Western journalists to the lost battlefields of Libya�s western mountains.

Rebels at the border say they used siege tactics to frighten the police away. For a month they blocked all resupply roads to the border but one; then the last week before their attack they shut off electricity.

They launched their strike at 4 a.m. � perhaps using night vision recently equipment donated from abroad � and it was all over by breakfast time.

quote:

Mounir Touchit said his family was the last to leave Nalut, with two women and three kids. At the border, the back of his truck has a crate of tomatoes, blankets, a satellite dish, and small television.

�They are bombing too close to the houses,� said Mr. Touchit, on his way to deposit his family safely in Tunisia. Then he would return to the fight himself. �They are randomly bombing. That�s why people are so afraid.�

And the reaction of the family? From beneath their conservative black shawls, the women and children raised their fingers in �V�-sign favored by rebels, and said: �May God make us martyrs!�

Those Inmarsat phone are about �500/$800 each.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Apr 27, 2011

# ? Apr 27, 2011 13:06

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Another reminder that the conflict isn't just taking place in a couple of cities:

quote:

Forces loyal to Gaddafi fired Russian-made Grad rockets into the centre of the rebel-held town of Zintan on Wednesday, a rebel spokesman in the town told Reuters.

"There was intense bombardment this morning. Around 15 Grad rockets landed in the town centre, two of them landed where I'm standing now," the spokesman, called Abdulrahman, said by telephone from Zintan, in the Western Mountains region.

quote:
Five houses were destroyed. Nobody was killed, luckily, but some children were slightly wounded.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 15:01

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Reuters round up of the latest military activity in Libya:

quote:

BRUSSELS, April 27 (Reuters) - Following are the latest available details of military activity in Libya. Full Reuters coverage of the Libyan conflict is on.

* NATO air strikes forced Libyan government forces to withdraw from one of their positions in the besieged city of Misrata overnight but they resumed bombardment of the port area on Wednesday, a rebel spokesman said.

* Muammar Gaddafi's forces fired Russian-made Grad rockets into the centre of the rebel-held town of Zintan, a rebel spokesman in the town told Reuters.

* The pilot of an F-16 fighter taking part in the NATO air operation in Libya was forced to eject on landing at an airbase in Italy on Wednesday, the military alliance said.

* A ship sent to evacuate a thousand migrants from Misrata docked in the besieged city's port on Wednesday after spending the night offshore waiting for shelling to ease off, an international aid agency said.

* Rebels and residents said forces loyal to Gaddafi tried to deny rebels in the city of Misrata their only lifeline to the outside world by shelling the port and nearby areas on Tuesday.

* NATO conducted 123 sorties on Tuesday, with 52 intended as strike missions. It said targets included:

-- Six military vehicles, seven "technical" vehicles and one surface-to-air missile launcher in the vicinity of Misrata.

-- Four tanks; two heavy equipment transporter trucks in the vicinity of Al-Khums.

-- One rocket launchers; three military vehicles, in the vicinity of Brega.

-- Eight ammunition bunkers in the vicinity of Mizdah.

* A total of 19 ships under NATO command are actively patrolling the central Mediterranean Sea. Twenty-two vessels were hailed on Tuesday to determine destination and cargo. One boarding was conducted by no vessels were diverted.

* A total of 662 vessels have been hailed, 18 boardings and five diversions have been conducted since the beginning of arms embargo operations. (reporting by David Brunnstrom)

# ? Apr 27, 2011 16:18

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

Xandu posted:

Interesting/awful interview with Gaddafi's daughter, Aisha.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/world/africa/27aisha.html?_r=1

That's supposed to be against the rules, naming your daughter Aisha... How'd he get away with it, or he just doesn't care?

# ? Apr 27, 2011 16:34

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 04:00

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

Paradox Personified posted:

That's supposed to be against the rules, naming your daughter Aisha... How'd he get away with it, or he just doesn't care?

Oh you silly person; rules don't apply to you if you're wealthy!

_{or a tyrant}

# ? Apr 27, 2011 16:48

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