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Nonsense posted:Why did anybody believe a loving thing about Yemen? Wow. Power must be an amazing drug.
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Apr 30, 2011 22:41
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-Sure hope this Brega rumor has some truth to it. -Mining in the known path of aid ships? I know some shipments of weapons came from Benghazi, but is he trying to be as cartoonishly evil as possible? -There does seem to be a momentum shift, what with the Misratans expanding into the outer city limits and the Nafusans cave-fighting all the way to Tunisia. If his forces can't even take Misrata (tactical retreat my rear end, he was aiming for Zawiyah 2.0) while it's surrounded and can't hold Tripoli's own mountain backyard, what chance of victory does Gaddafi have? -I count about seven suchlike momentum shifts, is that correct? 1) Unprecedented protests almost everywhere 2) State Forces shoot everything that moves 3) Protesters take many cities, all the east and some of the west, charge from Ajdabiya to Sidrah 4) Gaddafi goes medieval on nearby towns, counterattacks all the way to the gates of Benghazi 5) UN airpower wins the round, rebels on the road to Sirte 6) Pro-G forces go low-vis and scatter the rebels back to Ajdabiya 7) Misurata pushes back; the Mountains become a cat-and-mouse game -Who does Saleh think he is? Gaddafi? -Now that Rafah is opened, what will Hamas do? Will they try for more rockets or follow that shiny new accord with the PA? The Israelis are twitchy enough as it is.
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Apr 30, 2011 23:09
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ecureuilmatrix posted:-I count about seven suchlike momentum shifts, is that correct? ChangeInLibya is Tweeting a daily update from Misarata at the moment: quote:This morning the freedom fighters started attacking Gaddafi forces at Alghiran.. and the main battle took place at Misrata's airport and next to the bridge at Tripoli street. This battle continued till this evening, & the revolutionaries managed to kill many of Gaddafi's soldiers and injure others. The rest of the soldiers were forced to retreat to the "sikkak" area which is further away. We also heard that NATO managed to hit 2 of Gaddafi's tanks as they retreated from the airport.
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Apr 30, 2011 23:21
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I've heard rumors that Iranian forces are helping Syria massacre protestors.
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Apr 30, 2011 23:40
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Apparently Saif Gadaffi has been killed in a NATO airstrike. According to a Libyan official, anyway.
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Apr 30, 2011 23:49
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It's apparently Saif Al-Arab, not Saif Al-Islam, the one whose on the news all the time.
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Apr 30, 2011 23:50
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State TV is also claiming 3 of his grandsons were also killed. The BBC has a story about it, guessing it's probably true: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13251570 The spokesman also said Gaddafi was in the house but escaped unharmed. I guess one question is who is feeding NATO information about Gaddafi's whereabouts? Liberty4Libya also just Tweeted this: quote:Gadafi sokesman says that they will accept ceasefire, elections and new system of government. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Apr 30, 2011 |
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Apr 30, 2011 23:53
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AJEquote:Saif al-Arab, the youngest son of the Libyan leader, has been killed in a NATO air strike, a Libyan government spokesman said.
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May 1, 2011 00:07
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Yeah, looks like a botched assassination attempt. Not that Gaddafi doesn't deserve it, but the UN resolution certainly doesn't authorize killing him, much less his family. And killing presumably innocent people just because they happen to be close to a dictator is no way to win sympathy. Of course right now we only have the government spokesman's word for it, but if true it doesn't cast a good light on NATO actions.
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May 1, 2011 00:16
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Freigeist posted:Yeah, looks like a botched assassination attempt. Sympathy from whom? His country is revolting and he has no strong international allies. Think everyone knew from the get go that unless Gaddafi stepped down at the beginning then he'd be targeted for assassination.
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May 1, 2011 00:22
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It appears that he's not beyond making this kind of poo poo up and that Saif al-Arab may have defected http://www.aim.org/aim-column/nbc%E2%80%99s-mitchell-regurgitates-gaddafi-lies/ http://www.temasekreview.com/2011/02/25/moammar-ghaddafis-son-joined-libyan-revolutionists/
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May 1, 2011 00:27
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AllanGordon posted:Sympathy from whom? His country is revolting and he has no strong international allies. Think everyone knew from the get go that unless Gaddafi stepped down at the beginning then he'd be targeted for assassination. That's not within the scope of the UN mandate. The US treads dangerous ground every time it tries to assassinate a political figure or leader.
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May 1, 2011 00:29
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schadenfraud posted:It appears that he's not beyond making this kind of poo poo up and that Saif al-Arab may have defected Back in 1986, we bombed Libya, including Gaddafi's house. According to him, we wasted his 2 year old adopted daughter. Thing is, it's suspected that daughter actually didn't exist, and it was just a fabrication for propaganda purposes. Gaddafi could very well have done that kind of thing again.
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May 1, 2011 00:31
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Pics or it didn't happen, really.
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May 1, 2011 00:52
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The NATO argument is that he (part of the command and control infrastructure) is ordering civilians to be killed and killing him protects them. Seems reasonable to me.
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May 1, 2011 00:53
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AllanGordon posted:Sympathy from whom? His country is revolting and he has no strong international allies. Think everyone knew from the get go that unless Gaddafi stepped down at the beginning then he'd be targeted for assassination. I am still concerned that Gaddafi has more popular support than the Libyan opposition wants us to believe. Now I will buy that the majority oppose him, but if 90% were really against him shouldn't more cities be revolting? Who is fighting in his armies and who is suppressing dissent in the cities? Rebels of course say mercenaries, but I have seen no evidence that they make up more than a small portion of his men. And well, Putin at least will probably have something to say about this tomorrow. And Chavez will be furious!  Anyway, hoping for better pics of the house soon, must have been a pretty big and well reinforced one if Gaddafi and his wife were really in there too and somehow emerged unharmed. Bunker-like one might say... Edit: OK, NATO says it only bombed a "command and control facility" in Tripoli. Truth? Who knows. neamp fucked around with this message at 02:43 on May 1, 2011 |
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May 1, 2011 01:36
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quote:a Libyan government spokesman said And that reason is why I think I'll wait until further information is given. Maybe this time they'll be able to find the house when they drive reporters out. I wouldn't put it past Gadaffi to shoot his own son for trying to get him to give up.
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May 1, 2011 02:57
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Freigeist posted:I am still concerned that Gaddafi has more popular support than the Libyan opposition wants us to believe. Now I will buy that the majority oppose him, but if 90% were really against him shouldn't more cities be revolting? How are people still saying this? In the early stages of the revolution, there were riots and protests in every major city. Police stations and government buildings in Tripoli were burned down, the police were being overrun. Ghadaffi just barely managed to carve out a safe zone for himself by massacring protesters in the street with armour and airstrikes. Just because people aren't revolting in Tripoli now (because doing so would be a quick way to eat an anti-aircraft shell), doesn't mean there's no support for the revolution there.
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May 1, 2011 03:05
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Slave posted:The NATO argument is that he (part of the command and control infrastructure) is ordering civilians to be killed and killing him protects them. Seems reasonable to me. It's also plain as day assassination though. That's never a good thing for political ramifications. China for example is such a goddamn X factor should they decide enough is enough in terms of Western advancement of values. Yes, hopefully we can get rid of Gaddafi ASAP, but if NATO has to personally shove a bomb up his rear end then it's a bit of a nasty political cost.
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May 1, 2011 03:07
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Slantedfloors posted:Just because people aren't revolting in Tripoli now (because doing so would be a quick way to eat an anti-aircraft shell), doesn't mean there's no support for the revolution there. Actually, people have been rebelling against the Qaddafi regime in Tripoli in recent days.
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May 1, 2011 03:14
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Slantedfloors posted:How are people still saying this? I am not saying there is no support, in fact I am sure there is an overall majority that would like to see Gaddafi go. The question is how big is this majority and how determined are they to see it through. And on the other hand how many do support Gaddafi and follow him blindly enough to murder their countrymen to ensure his stay in power. Problem is there still seem to be plenty in this second category. If there really is as little true support for Gaddafi as some say his "supporters" including those in the army will melt away when the situation becomes untenable to them, Tripoli and other cities will rise up finally and thousands of protesters will have no great problem dealing with the remaining hard core of loyalists. If the split in the population is not that clear however, say bad case 60/40 of opponents versus supporters I fear that removing Gaddafi will be very difficult and bloody. That really is my concern, not whether the rebels are legitimate or such crap, but how this revolution can succeed with as little further bloodshed as possible. Therefore I think it's important to convince as many Libyans as possible that Gaddafi is the bad guy, that there is an alternative to his government and that NATO is there to help them out. Killing children doesn't have a real positive impact in this regard is all I'm saying. And whether this story turns out true or not right now it seems like a huge PR coup for Gaddafi.
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May 1, 2011 04:22
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There isn't anyone in Tripoli thinking "Hmmm, maybe he really is the victim here". People made up their minds back when he ordered anti aircraft guns fired into crowds of protesters. The intervention didn't happen overnight, they spent more than a month asking politely if he could tone down on the mass murder, rape, looting and terror attacks.
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May 1, 2011 04:48
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It's only a PR coup if you think that the lines haven't already been drawn. This LA times article claims that rebels across the east are celebrating his death. quote:The attack seems sure to raise more questions about NATO strikes on Tripoli. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-strike-20110501,0,409419.story I agree that political killings are wrong and certainly that killing noncombatants and children are wrong but I feel like taking out one of Momo's kids makes him look impotent and gives a big boost to the rebels and NATO forces.
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May 1, 2011 04:50
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automatic posted:children dude was like 30 e- oh wait, grandkids too huh real shame
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May 1, 2011 04:53
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I have to ask, as someone who supports the intervention, what's the difference between killing Qaddafi with an airstrike or bombing thousands of loyalist troops to let one of the revolutionaries shoot him? The end result is going to be the same. Even if he gets captured and put on trial, it's not like they're going to let him lead the country again even on the massively long shot that he actually is innocent. It seems like it'd just be saving a lot of time and lives. The only possible downside I see is a loss of legitimacy to the revolution, but I don't think that will hurt the revolution in the world's eyes anymore than the intervention to date has. I feel like I'm missing something.
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May 1, 2011 04:59
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ArchRanger posted:I feel like I'm missing something. The whole trial part I think is what you're missing.
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May 1, 2011 05:07
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I think one could argue a case that taking out Qadaffi is cool under U.S law due to his previous support for terrorism. Since he hasn't been active in that arena for awhile I think the case would be pretty weak. I'm not that familiar with international law, but I am sure there is a UN position against assassinating political leaders.quote:Part 2.11 of this executive order reiterates a proscription on US intelligence agencies sponsoring or carrying out an assassination. It reads[1]: With that said, I would prefer a quick decapitation strike as opposed to a sham trial. If we could get him before an International court that would be best.
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May 1, 2011 05:09
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THE HORSES rear end posted:I've heard rumors that Iranian forces are helping Syria massacre protestors. Wouldn't be surprised given that there were rumors of Syrians being flown in to put down the protests in Iran after Dinner Jacket "won" re-election. Speaking of which I'm surprised Iran isn't also exploding since it has the same or worse unemployment numbers for it's young adults. Or they did but were brutally silenced a year too soon, or are they just being overshadowed by everything else in the region.
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May 1, 2011 05:34
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A Winner is Jew posted:Wouldn't be surprised given that there were rumors of Syrians being flown in to put down the protests in Iran after Dinner Jacket "won" re-election. I could see some serious poo poo going down June 20 for the 2 year of Neda's death. Especially if Gadafi is dead/out of power by then.
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May 1, 2011 05:36
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If Gadaffi just happens to be next to a radar dish or a missile launcher or something that could be possibly used to murder a Libyan well then that's just collateral damage.
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May 1, 2011 05:49
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automatic posted:I think one could argue a case that taking out Qadaffi is cool under U.S law due to his previous support for terrorism. Since he hasn't been active in that arena for awhile I think the case would be pretty weak. I'm not that familiar with international law, but I am sure there is a UN position against assassinating political leaders. He's part of the military apparatus, so I don't think international law has anything to say about it (though the UN may very well discourage it). The executive order does ban assassinations, though the executive has purposefully interpreted it as narrowly as possible since Reagan.
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May 1, 2011 06:28
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I'm still not convinced any of it really happened, given the only sources we have are Gadhafi, and his government isn't exactly high on the credibility meter as of late.
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May 1, 2011 06:28
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Pedrophile posted:If Gadaffi just happens to be next to a radar dish or a missile launcher or something that could be possibly used to murder a Libyan well then that's just collateral damage. I agree, run the military like the mafia.
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May 1, 2011 07:04
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I think this should really be treated as a case of pics or it didn't happen, it's just a bit too convient for Gaddafi. He wants a ceasefire so he can resupply the troops, so this would help him with getting one, although I don't think it'll help him as much as he thinks even if it is true.
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May 1, 2011 08:04
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VikingSkull posted:dude was like 30 Let's not forget that his grandchildren could also be of military age. That maybe one of the reason why they're not disclosing it. It's easier to generate sympathy when people think of them as babies and not uniformed military officers who got a military commission at the age of 17-18 because of nepotism.
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May 1, 2011 08:10
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If they were Saif-al arab's children they couldn't be that old unless he had kids at 11. I can't find a source that identifies whose grandchildren they were though, so yeah they could have been low/mid level military. Dude has 8 kids and god knows how many grandkids.
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May 1, 2011 08:19
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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/2011430224755721620.htmlquote:"This was a direct operation to assassinate the leader of this country. This is not permitted by international law. It is not permitted by any moral code or principle. I wouldn't be surprised if it's fabricated or just done by Mad Gad for reasons others have talked about. Gotta love how many of the Libyan state news stories we get reek of pot/kettle moments. With the massive amount of outright lies and misinformation they've been saying, I don't see how anyone could trust or believe anything they post as news. For these same reasons I put major doubt on a ceasefire ever being reached, especially with the amount of times Gad's falsely played that card. Him fleeing or dying seem like the only 2 ways this'll end. I'd laugh my rear end off hearing the speeches he'd give at his trial (picture the look on his face when he's interrupted in the middle of one his hour long tales by the judge and told to get to the loving point), but I can't picture him surrendering with that ego.
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May 1, 2011 10:22
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I have to wonder why he keeps calling ceasefires since he has to know that everyone knows it's bullshit.
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May 1, 2011 10:30
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Pureauthor posted:I have to wonder why he keeps calling ceasefires since he has to know that everyone knows it's bullshit. It's hard to resupply your troops so they can continue to bomb/shoot/rape civilians when NATO is bombing you and the rebels are shooting at you.
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May 1, 2011 11:53
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Few bits:quote:Reuters The UK foreign office minister says he has no verification that one of Gaddafi’s sons was killed in a NATO air strike. quote:Al Jazeera English Battles appear to be raging in several cities across Libya. Al Jazeera is hearing reports that a large convoy of Gaddafi military vehicles entered two towns just outside the city of Ajdabiya. But NATO then apparently moved in with air strikes. Further west, near the western border with Tunisia is where gunbattles are reportedly going on between government troops and anti-Gaddafi forces. This spot has been the source of regular skirmishes and is a vital supply line. quote:Reuters NATO air strikes destroyed 45 vehicles belonging to Gaddafi’s forces after they killed at least 5 civilians in Jalu and Awlijah. quote:BBC Buildings belonging to the UN were also subject to a mob attack in Tripoli. The UN says it’s withdrawing all its international staff from Tripoli. quote:Reuters The UK has condemned attacks on the British embassy in Tripoli and other diplomatic missions. “Such actions, if confirmed, would be deplorable as the Gaddafi regime has a duty to protect diplomatic missions. This would be yet another breach of Gaddafi’s international obligations,” a foreign office spokeswoman said earlier. The foreign office says it has information that other foreign sites have been attacked as well and has expelled Libya’s ambassador to the UK, he has 24 hours to leave the country. Smoke was also seen rising from the Italian embassy on Sunday. Italy also strongly condemned the attack as a “grave and vile act”. Now for something that could be the sign of something terrible: quote:Times of Malta Gaddafi forces have been seen roaming the streets of Misrata wearing gas masks, contacts have told the Times of Malta. Sources at the hospital confirmed these reports and an independent source says thousands of gas masks had been distributed to troops yesterday. A source in Misrata said: “”The winds are blowing from the East right now which would make a gas attack unlikely but many people are viewing the death of Gaddafi’s son as the tipping point which could trigger the worst feared retaliation.” If he uses gas in Misarata on a large scale then it'll be such an awful crime that I doubt his pals in Russia will be unable to turn a blind eye to it.
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May 1, 2011 16:28
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